Zak Knight 'Irish' ? [Archive] - Page 2

Beavis

19/10/2004, 1:02 PM

Interesting that there's no apparent animosity by the players then towards their "adopted" countries. To me it would be like playing for England even though you're Irish.....you just couldn't do it because of the history. :confused:
But there does seems to be an animosity from caucasians in Holland towards these 'foreign' players.Just last week in the Dutch League,Den Haag(?) v PSV had to be abandoned by the ref as a result of the serious degree of rascism shown by fans towards some black players.PSV were fined last year after playing Arsenal in the Champions league.Wasn't there also rumours during EURO2004 that there was a substantial rift between the white and black players in the dutch side.The list goes on I'm sure....

inexile

19/10/2004, 1:04 PM

this argument has been done to death before.

there are two main considerations.

1) the recent Irish team has been predominatly irish born or closely connected to ireland for the last 10 or so years with 3 or at the outside 4 exceptions (morrison, carsley and holland being the stand outs as people who played regularly but had no real irish connection prior to declaring)

2) the recent rule change has flushed a few punters out - macken, whelan and now knight. if it hadnt been for this rule change I believe we would never have heard about any of these players and the days of the granny rule would have faded to obsolesence. I reckon these are the last lads who will declare so late into their 20's.

these lads should get as much of a benefit of the doubt as holland et al. if they're good enough and take it seriously a la morrison has then I won't have a problem.

knight maybe could have been a bit more diplomatic(ie lied) and been nicer about it. he could have mentioned a granny in westmeath he's always wanted to make happy by playing for ireland. hokey but nice.

as it is he'll do well to get a game .

which whelan are you talking about excuse my ignorance

green goblin

19/10/2004, 1:08 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but have we ever had a situation that's reversed? Someone plays for ROI U21 and then goes and plays for Ingerland (Or whoever) seniors? Someone was saying something similar happened with rugby, but can't remember who it was. I'm guessing it'd be no, but I thought I'd ask..?

sylvo

19/10/2004, 1:10 PM

barglee

19/10/2004, 1:21 PM

Peadar

19/10/2004, 1:33 PM

Just last week in the Dutch League,Den Haag(?) v PSV had to be abandoned by the ref as a result of the serious degree of rascism shown by fans towards some black players....

I heard the "official" story last night and the game was abandoned because the fans were calling the ref a prostitute of PSV.
There's a campaign to stamp out certain chants and apparently this one is particularly offensive. The ref had been told before the game that he had the backing of everyone should such an incident take place.
Have to say, I've heard eL ref's being called a lot worse.

That said, you're right, there is a lot of racism in Holland.
I've lived and worked there.
It's quite prevalent.

green goblin

19/10/2004, 1:40 PM

your man Bracken for England......

Yes, Bracken, that's him. Thanks Barglee and Sylvo. Bracken.

So, what I suppose I'm thinking is... However stupid Knight is, and however badly he's handled things, is it not better this way around, rather than having someone who's born in England to Irish parents, playing for England instead? The more eligible players we have, of whatever standard and wherever they're born, then the wider the choice Kerr has to pick a squad.

My eldest's only 4. I've already said there's no way they're playing for England! :)

sadloserkid

19/10/2004, 1:49 PM

which whelan are you talking about excuse my ignorance

Noel Whelan, now larging it up with Aberdeen.

Lionel Ritchie

19/10/2004, 2:21 PM

Ahem.
;) . ;) . ;)
Need I say more?

The italian fat lad they'd trying to keep goal ....what was his name ? ....Tiabbi??? something like that ...

pbn

19/10/2004, 2:41 PM

[QUOTE=Bowsy]Could be wrong and often am but i believe a lot of the Turkish national team are German born but choose to declare for Turkey.

Bowsy, the Turkish/German thing is a bit diffent. It may have changed in the last few years but if you were born in Germany of Turkisk parentage you were not entitled to German citizenship even though born in Germany. You were a 'Turk" as far as Germany was concerned and that was that. Does anyone know if this is still the case?

Macy

19/10/2004, 2:52 PM

Yes, Bracken, that's him. Thanks Barglee and Sylvo. Bracken.

So, what I suppose I'm thinking is... However stupid Knight is, and however badly he's handled things, is it not better this way around, rather than having someone who's born in England to Irish parents, playing for England instead? The more eligible players we have, of whatever standard and wherever they're born, then the wider the choice Kerr has to pick a squad.

My eldest's only 4. I've already said there's no way they're playing for England! :)
Yeah but your misintepreting the point about where someone was born. The likes of Kilbane and McCarthy never had a doubt that they were Irish, same as your kids no doubt. W@nkers like Knight, Morrison, Holland etc only decide they're Irish when they're not going to be picked for England.

We might as well go the middle east route of dishing out passports to Brazilians that aren't good enough for their national team. Sure once they play alright and they bulk out the squad it's for the best no?

Pablo

19/10/2004, 2:53 PM

i'm sick of this. the likes of Morrison and Macken can burn in hell

Bowsy

19/10/2004, 2:54 PM

Bowsy, the Turkish/German thing is a bit diffent. It may have changed in the last few years but if you were born in Germany of Turkisk parentage you were not entitled to German citizenship even though born in Germany. You were a 'Turk" as far as Germany was concerned and that was that. Does anyone know if this is still the case?

Have looked it up and apparently "naturalization in Germany is based on descent, not place of birth. Thus, generations of foreign children born in Germany remain foreigners, while others of German descent who live in other countries may claim citizenship under Article 116 of the Basic Law". Suppose there's no argument when there's no dual citizenship.

Again forgive my ignorance but wasn't Bracken 2nd generation Irish who just changed his mind much like this Leon Best lad might be doing?

pbn

19/10/2004, 3:05 PM

K. Bracken was actually born in Ireland and went to England as a baby or small child. . Heard him say once he grew up in England and always considered himself English. Presumably he had a 2nd gen upbringing(although Irish born) and chose England. Heard Martin Keown ( Galway & Fermanagh parents) say something similar although the difference was Keown was English born, unlike Bracken

Cravenite

19/10/2004, 3:15 PM

I'm a season ticket holder at Fulham and have been watching Knight for a couple of years. He's a quality player but does make the odd mistake....as do all centre halves. Whilst he doesn't have the experience of Kenny C or is showing the form of Richard Dunne, there's no doubt he'd be challenging for a spot in the Irish team...and he's only 24. Bring him on, I say - so what if he's capped by England at under-21....we never complained about John Aldridge or Tony Cascarino. He'd soon become one of the lads - I've met him at a club function and he seemed a really decent bloke, took time to sign autographs and have a chat.

Last year there was talk of him going to Liverpool and there are still lots of rumour about a move - he's only getting better.

Anyway, I'm getting KNIGHT 6 on my Irish jersey and wearing it to the next Fulham match. At least he wasn't making up some rubbish about his long lost grandmother and how his Irish roots mean so much to him - you can't fault his honesty.

green goblin

19/10/2004, 3:31 PM

[QUOTE=Macy]Yeah but your misintepreting the point about where someone was born. The likes of Kilbane and McCarthy never had a doubt that they were Irish, same as your kids no doubt. W@nkers like Knight, Morrison, Holland etc only decide they're Irish when they're not going to be picked for England. QUOTE]

Hmm. Maybe you're right. I wasn't thinking about it like that, but maybe you're right. I've never doubted that I'm Irish, nor has my wife, though we were both born and brought up in England. We never had to choose to be Irish, as we always knew we were. Same for our children, bless 'em. The point about Martin Keown is a valid one, and perhaps we might have seen him knocking on the door of the FAI in other circumstances.
But yes, all respect to the Foreign born players who chose the green shirt first because they knew where they were from and were proud to wear it, and not because they were never going to be picked for England.

Stuttgart88

19/10/2004, 3:39 PM

Interesting view Cravenite. I've only seen him live once that I can remember, last year at Loftus Road versus Leeds. I came away wondering how any of the 22 players on view ever became professional footballers. You've seen more of him than any of us but I have to admit I've not been impressed and I'd give him a wide berth. The connection seems too tenuous for my liking anyway.

On the rugby front, England have capped Declan Danaher )from Connaught I think) at B international level and are looking to call up Johnny O'Connor of Wasps.

By all accounts O'Connor is the best wing forward in England and he has said he's waiting for an Irish call up. He's born & bred Irish and why he hasn't been called up for Ireland is a mystery to most informed Irish rugby heads.

green goblin

19/10/2004, 3:47 PM

On the rugby front, England have capped Declan Danaher )from Connaught I think) at B international level and are looking to call up Johnny O'Connor of Wasps.
By all accounts O'Connor is the best wing forward in England and he has said he's waiting for an Irish call up. He's born & bred Irish and why he hasn't been called up for Ireland is a mystery to most informed Irish rugby heads.

Dallaglio was tapped on the shoulder by Ireland as a youth, so I heard, but wasn't interested. The BBC commentator had the good grace to mention it while England were being dismantled by Ireland at Twickenham. Now what a game that was... :D

Cravenite

19/10/2004, 4:14 PM

[QUOTE=Stuttgart88]Interesting view Cravenite. I've only seen him live once that I can remember, last year at Loftus Road versus Leeds. I came away wondering how any of the 22 players on view ever became professional footballers.

I remember that game, very poor I agree - two nil to Fulham, but Zat kept Alan Smith quiet who (apart from Malbranque) was one of the only decent players on view. You should come down to the Cottage - much nicer ground and plenty of goals (albeit in the wrong end!).

Adrianovic

19/10/2004, 7:03 PM

On the rugby front, England have capped Declan Danaher )from Connaught I think) at B international level and are looking to call up Johnny O'Connor of Wasps.

By all accounts O'Connor is the best wing forward in England and he has said he's waiting for an Irish call up. He's born & bred Irish and why he hasn't been called up for Ireland is a mystery to most informed Irish rugby heads.

O`Connor is very unlikely to play for England, he'd have to wait another 18 months to be eligable I seem to remember, giving the IRFU time to make way for him. He'll get into the team, he's a very good player. Especially as Keith Gleeson has broken his leg and won't be available in O`Connor's position.

Ade

gspain

19/10/2004, 10:08 PM

1MickCollins

20/10/2004, 2:14 AM

Kyran Bracken wen tto Templeogue College and played rugby for them.

I think he moved when he was 11-12 anyhow he played for England at U-16 level and all higher grades.

Back to soccer, I think it is a matter of expediency if we are really stuck in a certain area then we could take a mercenary onboard but with decent options at center back right now and the likes of McCarthy, McShane and FitzGerald coming through is it necessary to bring a mercenary onboard in this position?

Peadar

20/10/2004, 7:52 AM

Kyran Bracken wen tto Templeogue College and played rugby for them.

Sure that's in West Britain, he was entitled to play for England. :D

Stuttgart88

20/10/2004, 7:54 AM

Didn't Bracken go to Clongowes? Anyway, he definitely went to school & played rugby in Ireland.

Green Goblin - I was at Twickenham for that game. Generally I'd swap a triple crown for a 1-0 away win in a friendly against Albania but that game ranks as one of the best I was ever at.

Cravenite - I was at The Cottage once before, to see Fulham vs Tranmere in the FA Cup in 2000 I think. I was on a scouting mission to check out Alan Mahon! Nice ground, I liked it.

I don't have any hard & fast criteria for determining whether someone should play for us or not. I'm quite happy to have Morrisson on board and Macken too, simply because we need options upfront. I've no problem with Holland either as he nailed his colours to the mast early on in his career. I suspect this Leon Best guy is having pressure put on him by S'hampton as being "English" increases his transfer value. The same pressure was put on Morrisson by Palace.

There was a letter by an English bloke in The Tribune & The Oberver complaining that the Irish team at WC2002 had a nerve to call themselves Irish. And this was despite 8 of the starting XI being born in Ireland. Kilbane, Breen & Holland being the others (the first two are as Irish as anyone).

There was a good letter published in response naming about 35 sportsmen who represented England or GB at the highest level in a range of sports.

What really gets my goat up is when the Brits start complaining about how Irish or not the team is. Selecting people like Zat Knight would only give them more ammo to play with.

Dodgy eligibility has been part of international football for ages. Remember we were knocked out of World Cup qualkification by a Brazilian who happened to live in Belgium and a couple of Turks who happened to live in Switzerland. But generally I'd like the bulk of our squad to have no ambiguity about their Irishness. A rule of thumb, not a hard & fast rule I suppose.

green goblin

20/10/2004, 8:27 AM

But generally I'd like the bulk of our squad to have no ambiguity about their Irishness. A rule of thumb, not a hard & fast rule I suppose.

Bill Murray to Sigouney Weaver in in Ghostbusters: "I have a rule never to sleep with posessed women....Well, it's more of a guideline really".

i think you're right. there's a real temptation for us to get very dogmatic about this issue, and it's not a clear cut thing at all.

lopez

20/10/2004, 11:10 AM

Have looked it up and apparently "naturalization in Germany is based on descent, not place of birth. Thus, generations of foreign children born in Germany remain foreigners, while others of German descent who live in other countries may claim citizenship under Article 116 of the Basic Law". Suppose there's no argument when there's no dual citizenship.One of the quirky things that has happened over this were various 'Germans' from the former Soviet Union (descendents of 18th or 19th century migrants to Russia) getting citizenship almost immediately if they can supply the appropriate 'proof' which has been often a Nazi party card or SS ID of their grandfather. Mind you, we're being hard on the Germans here: there are always worthy exceptions to this rigid rule. The black bloke in the 1-5 defeat to the Scum did not have any German blood - I've seen a another, ahem, non-aryan in the Olympic team - although obviously they wouldn't have got citizenship if they were just selling bottleg copies of Boney M for a living. :rolleyes:

Donal81

20/10/2004, 11:18 AM

An interesting aside to this debate. I'm not old enough to remember him playing for us but does the name Terry Mancini ring a bell with anyone? He played for Leyton Orient, QPR and Arsenal. Click on the link and see how his 'funniest moment' was not knowing the Irish national anthem when it was playing. In fact, he turned to the player next to him and said he hoped that ours wouldn't be that long.
http://www.truegreats.com/player.asp?p=63&c=95

Pablo

20/10/2004, 2:10 PM

Click on the link and see how his 'funniest moment' was not knowing the Irish national anthem when it was playing. In fact, he turned to the player next to him and said he hoped that ours wouldn't be that long.
http://www.truegreats.com/player.asp?p=63&c=95

i dont find that a bit funny.

thats exactly why the likes of morrison and macken and knight should be told to fcuk off

inexile

20/10/2004, 2:15 PM

Pablo

20/10/2004, 2:19 PM

grow up the lot of ye if clinton,maken, or even knight scored the winning goal against france we would be toasting him for years to come, same as we did with mcateer,aldridge, mcloughlin even mackay who scored the goals to get us to finals i dont care who they are or where they are allegedly from if they pull on the green do their best who cares?

what a stupid arguement. being irish means a lot to me and to see any old donkey with even the merest connection to my great country pulling on a green shirt when they couldnt get a game any where else sickens me to the core

Macy

20/10/2004, 2:28 PM

Hmm. Maybe you're right. I wasn't thinking about it like that, but maybe you're right. I've never doubted that I'm Irish, nor has my wife, though we were both born and brought up in England. We never had to choose to be Irish, as we always knew we were. Same for our children, bless 'em. The point about Martin Keown is a valid one, and perhaps we might have seen him knocking on the door of the FAI in other circumstances.
But yes, all respect to the Foreign born players who chose the green shirt first because they knew where they were from and were proud to wear it, and not because they were never going to be picked for England.
I'm exactly the same, and never considered myself any nationality but Irish (Until Mancunian splits anyway! ;) ). Nothing infruiates me more than the career Oirish who get called up. It does those of us who didn't have to choose our nationality (as you so rightly put it) a massive disservice.

I've actually got far more respect for the likes of Noel Whelan and Keiron Bracken for going with their hearts rather than their heads, than I have for the likes of Morrison, Holland, Macken et al. And that includes people like Ray Houghton - who openly admits that he still supports Scotland first and only played for us because he wasn't getting a look in with them.

green goblin

20/10/2004, 2:44 PM

I've actually got far more respect for the likes of Noel Whelan and Keiron Bracken for going with their hearts rather than their heads, than I have for the likes of Morrison, Holland, Macken et al. And that includes people like Ray Houghton - who openly admits that he still supports Scotland first and only played for us because he wasn't getting a look in with them.

This whole discussion has made me realise how much I respect Alan Thompson. He's probably never going to get a call from England now, and he knows it. The SFA have said he's been with Celtic so long he can play for Scotland if he wants to start calling himself Scottish, and he's said thanks but no thanks. He's not a Scot, he's 100% English, and it just wouldn't be right. He's turned down the only chance he'll ever have of International football. Puts Knight to shame, he does.

Bowsy

20/10/2004, 2:51 PM

This whole discussion has made me realise how much I respect Alan Thompson. He's probably never going to get a call from England now, and he knows it. The SFA have said he's been with Celtic so long he can play for Scotland if he wants to start calling himself Scottish, and he's said thanks but no thanks. He's not a Scot, he's 100% English, and it just wouldn't be right. He's turned down the only chance he'll ever have of International football. Puts Knight to shame, he does.

Didn't Thompson play for England against Sweden?

Lionel Ritchie

20/10/2004, 2:53 PM

grow up the lot of ye if clinton,maken, or even knight scored the winning goal against france we would be toasting him for years to come, same as we did with mcateer,aldridge, mcloughlin even mackay who scored the goals to get us to finals i dont care who they are or where they are allegedly from if they pull on the green do their best who cares?

..you do know MacKay played for Scotland ...don't you?

green goblin

20/10/2004, 3:02 PM

Didn't Thompson play for England against Sweden?
U21 only. And as we've seen that no longer seems to count. Fair play to him for nailing his colours to the mast and sticking to them.

Bowsy

20/10/2004, 3:12 PM

U21 only. And as we've seen that no longer seems to count. Fair play to him for nailing his colours to the mast and sticking to them.

almost positive he played when they got beaten 1-0 by Sweden before Euro 2004. that said fair play for sticking to his guns.

green goblin

20/10/2004, 3:45 PM

almost positive he played when they got beaten 1-0 by Sweden before Euro 2004. that said fair play for sticking to his guns.
...actually I think you're right. The FA site says he played 58 mins. Sorry everyone. :o

eirebhoy

20/10/2004, 4:37 PM

almost positive he played when they got beaten 1-0 by Sweden before Euro 2004. that said fair play for sticking to his guns.
And the little poxes in the English team wouldn't pass to him. On Sky Sports phone-in after the match everyone was saying they felt bad for Thompson as they knew Sven wouldn't give him another chance.

1MickCollins

20/10/2004, 5:01 PM

I suspect this Leon Best guy is having pressure put on him by S'hampton as being "English" increases his transfer value. The same pressure was put on Morrisson by Palace.

That may have been the case a few years ago but with current rules there is no limit to the number of EU players a team can have just a limit on non-EU players, so 'transfer value' is not a factor - just look at what clubs have paid for Duff & Keane.

1MickCollins

21/10/2004, 1:44 AM

What about Graham Coughlan? Can you imagine what it would mean for him to play for Ireland? Plymouth are 8th in the Championship at the moment, I think it would be great if he was called up. Mighn't be as good as Zatyiah Knight but he would at least wear the shirt with pride.

Story in the Indo:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1271017&issue_id=11565

zinedineontour

21/10/2004, 7:40 AM

I think the thing that really gets to me is the way he goes about saying he would play for us. Oh theres a world cup on ireland are doing well and england have ****loads of centre halfs so why not choose ireland . Well mr Knight you can **** of to the back of the queue behind breeno and dunne who have done a great job for us when called upon.. We have a decent enough squad at the back not to be calling up average centre halfs

Bowsy

21/10/2004, 8:59 AM

That may have been the case a few years ago but with current rules there is no limit to the number of EU players a team can have just a limit on non-EU players, so 'transfer value' is not a factor - just look at what clubs have paid for Duff & Keane.

A player being an England International still holds wait. Duff would have cost more than �17m if he played for In-gur-land whereas if Rio Ferdinand was Irish Man U would have paid a fraction of the �30m they forked out. Just my opinion.

eirebhoy

21/10/2004, 10:23 AM

I think the thing that really gets to me is the way he goes about saying he would play for us. Oh theres a world cup on ireland are doing well and england have ****loads of centre halfs so why not choose ireland . Well mr Knight you can **** of to the back of the queue behind breeno and dunne who have done a great job for us when called upon..
Whats the difference between Knight and someone like Holland? I'll tell you, Holland thinks it and says something else, Knight is being honest and says what he thinks. Not that I want to call him up or anything...

paudie

21/10/2004, 10:43 AM

If we are going for a rule of thumb I'd say that if a player doesn't declare for Ireland while he's qualified to play U21 games he shouldn't be considered for the senior team.

Of the non Irish born players in the current squad I think this would rule in Kilbane and O'Brien and rule out Holland, Macken and Morrison.

Ireland play games at so many underage levels that players have plenty of opportunities to declare for us at a relatively young age.

Its easy for fans to talk hypothetically about this though.

There's no way an Irish manager is going to limit his pick. Its understandable that his attitude would be that if a guy is good enough and qualifies he will pick him.

eirebhoy

21/10/2004, 10:49 AM

If we are going for a rule of thumb I'd say that if a player doesn't declare for Ireland while he's qualified to play U21 games he shouldn't be considered for the senior team.
...rule out Morrison.
There's the hitch in your rule, Morrison played for us at U-21 level. :)

Stuttgart88

21/10/2004, 11:06 AM

My vague recollection is that Matty Holland (as he was known way back) was always considered an Irish player and he had nailed his colours to the mast quite early on. He was one of those guys you'd keep half an eye on because he was listed as Irish in the Irish Times list on Mondays.

Did he have underage caps?

Reading about his singing GSTQ at Wembley on this forum surprised me. The first I heard of it was on this forum.

Bowsy

21/10/2004, 11:27 AM

Reading about his singing GSTQ at Wembley on this forum surprised me. The first I heard of it was on this forum.

If we had a half Spanish or French player do this it wouldn't cause any real comment. Everybody has the right to be proud of every part of their heritage.

I'm not saying I believe Holland dreamed of playing for Ireland as a boy as I actually don't but I have no problem with that reported incident.