So what do you want to happen next?

[Fergie's Son]

So Trapp is gone, time to move on.

What is your realistic hope for what happens next regardless of who the new manager is?

Mine are fairly simple:

1. Bring any and all players who want to play for Ireland in from the cold (Gibson etc.).

2. A manager who attends matches in the UK, Scotland and indeed Ireland.

3. Someone who has a system but doesn't rigidly adhere to it. That is, a manager who can actually change as the game is in progress and isn't afraid to make substitutions.

4. A manager who has access too and perhaps even some control over our under-21 team.

6. Direct involvement in the creation or oversight of some sort of academy of excellence for Irish football.

Time for some positivity.

5. And in dream land, someone other than Delaney in charge at the FAI.

[Bungle]

Would agree with pretty much all of that.

I think we need to set the ball rolling about youth coaching in this country and whether it is Chrissie Hughton or Mick or a German or Dutch man etc, I'd like to think that they would have enough clout and expertise to be able to get the ball rolling. I would love if Chippy could be involved in this process also (ideally as the head of development).

[Stuttgart88]

We have a decdent head of development, no? Ruud Dokter. Isn't that his role?

[Fergie's Son]

Would you consider him a success in that role? Genuine question as I don't know.

[backstothewall]

My main hope is that the FAI have already spoken to likely candidates to sound out interest, and that they have the vacancy filled before the next game.

What I don't want is them to appoint some Portuguese total football merchant, who is going to try to turn Marc Wilson & Glenn Whelan into Roberto Carlos and Pirlo. Any success we have had down through the years has been achieved with a tight defence, high tempo football, and making the most of set pieces.

For reasons of his availability, approach to the game, and excellent reputation for making the most of limited players, Martin O'Neill would be my preferred choice.

[Stuttgart88]

Would you consider him a success in that role? Genuine question as I don't know.He only started a month or two ago!

[geysir]

People have just managed to stop smirking when they see or hear his name.

[Fergie's Son]

He only started a month or two ago!

There you go then. Was wondering why I hadn't heard much of him.

[Bungle]

We have a decdent head of development, no? Ruud Dokter. Isn't that his role?

Totally forgot about him. He seems to have been very highly thought of in Holland.

[Stuttgart88]

I think it's a bit of a theme, faux intellectual soccer types coming on here banging on about the need for change at all levels etc. I think a bit of balance is required. Certain factions in Irish football do appear to be "enlightened" and know whats needed. Maybe not enough, but more than people here think. Believe it or not, even some parts of the FAI work well.

People forgetting that a Dutch expert has been hired isn't a big deal, but it is symptomatic of the "There's nothing good or modern about Irish football" mood that is prevailing. I think some balance is required, and questions need to be asked as to why entrenched interests hold so much clout in our football hierarchy.

Also, if people care so much - everyone seems to be quick to criticise the FAI and the grassroots culture - why don't more people step up to the plate and aim for high coaching qualifications? I met a senior FAI bod last year and he said they ran a coach education course in Clonshaugh last year. It was publicised nationally via all appropriate channels such as clubs and leagues.

I invite guesses as to how many coaches from around the country turned up. I know the answer.

On the flip side, I met an Irishman in Stockholm in March who gave up trying to get his UEFA badges in Ireland, it was too disorganised.

But please let me know your guess.

[texidub]

Something that is often talked about is taking a diff approach at under age levels and focusing more on skill and tactics than on winning at all costs.

I don't know how all that works in other countries, but it must be worth looking at very closely.

I think the "everything is wrong with Irish football" unfortunately comes from some people at the very top of the game here. Brady wrecked my head last night being so disrespectful towards the players.

We *do* produce excellent players, we always have.. so it must be something else that is wrong.

[peadar1987]

Also, if people care so much - everyone seems to be quick to criticise the FAI and the grassroots culture - why don't more people step up to the plate and aim for high coaching qualifications? I met a senior FAI bod last year and he said they ran a coach education course in Clonshaugh last year. It was publicised nationally via all appropriate channels such as clubs and leagues.

I invite guesses as to how many coaches from around the country turned up. I know the answer.

On the flip side, I met an Irishman in Stockholm in March who gave up trying to get his UEFA badges in Ireland, it was too disorganised.

But please let me know your guess.

Not everyone is cut out to be a top level coach. I know I'm not, as much as I would love a career in the game.

Economics could be another reason. There's so much more money in the game in places like the Netherlands and Spain, it's a viable career option. In Ireland, not so much.

[Bungle]

I think it's a bit of a theme, faux intellectual soccer types coming on here banging on about the need for change at all levels etc. I think a bit of balance is required. Certain factions in Irish football do appear to be "enlightened" and know whats needed. Maybe not enough, but more than people here think. Believe it or not, even some parts of the FAI work well.

People forgetting that a Dutch expert has been hired isn't a big deal, but it is symptomatic of the "There's nothing good or modern about Irish football" mood that is prevailing. I think some balance is required, and questions need to be asked as to why entrenched interests hold so much clout in our football hierarchy.

Also, if people care so much - everyone seems to be quick to criticise the FAI and the grassroots culture - why don't more people step up to the plate and aim for high coaching qualifications? I met a senior FAI bod last year and he said they ran a coach education course in Clonshaugh last year. It was publicised nationally via all appropriate channels such as clubs and leagues.

I invite guesses as to how many coaches from around the country turned up. I know the answer.

On the flip side, I met an Irishman in Stockholm in March who gave up trying to get his UEFA badges in Ireland, it was too disorganised.

But please let me know your guess.

Alot of fair points there. I will credit the FAI with getting a Dutchman like Dokter to replace their previous head of development. It makes sense, if we are seemingly looking at the Dutch model.

You are right about alot of barstoolers out there. Some of my friends who are involved in coaching used to give out to their kids for trying "Hollywood passes" or tricks and flicks in games, yet they would be the very ones moaning about the technical limitations of our players compared to the continentals or South Americans. They mocked a team that I managed when they were 8 because I was trying to teach them technical skills and they were losing alot of games in their first season. Funny enough, when they were 10/11, they were some of the best players in the league and won the league three times in a row. All the kids enjoyed themselves which should be part and parcel of youth football.

There are many others who sit in pubs and bemoan football in this country, but couldn't be arsed getting involved and giving something back. I do think football lacks what the GAA has in that regard. Some of it is the fault of the FAI or leagues like the DDSL, but alot of it certainly isn't.

[Junior]

Stutts,

I was listening to a talk in about grassroots coaching etc.. on talksport or 5live recently and one coach (UK based) rang in. The very brief point he made was that there was a one day coaching course/update/briefing or whatever organised by the FA. The cost of the course was something in the region of £350. The club he was a part of had a number of teams but had to rely on local sponsorship, donations from parents etc... to pay for the kit. A team kit probably costs in the region of £350. There was no way he could go and spunk £350 of the clubs money on a day course with a few cups of tea and biccies thrown in.

There is a thread on YBIG, that I dip in an out of for a nosey every now and again and amongst the plenty of posts of crap there are some decent contributions from posters who have really struggled to get in to coaching or become frustrated with the inadeqiacies of the set up.

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/coaching-schoolboy-and-youth-football_topic8280_page47.html


Now, I would guess at 10 people attended the course.

[Junior]

You are right about alot of barstoolers out there. Some of my friends who are involved in coaching used to give out to their kids for trying "Hollywood passes" or tricks and flicks in games, yet they would be the very ones moaning about the technical limitations of our players compared to the continentals or South Americans. They mocked a team that I managed when they were 8 because I was trying to teach them technical skills and they were losing alot of games in their first season. Funny enough, when they were 10/11, they were some of the best players in the league and won the league three times in a row. All the kids enjoyed themselves which should be part and parcel of youth football.

Whats this, a thinly veiled, Im throwing my hat in for the job?

[Bungle]

Whats this, a thinly veiled, Im throwing my hat in for the job?

I am interested, but I need to speak with Eamon Dunphy first, as I want him to be my assistant.

[Kingdom]

I'm on a run now so I may as well keep posting :)

Is there an overhaul needed in the game locally? Yes quite probably. There is a lot of good work done in the LOI, but it's not supported properly either financially or pr-wise by the FAI.

An overhaul of football on this island is not going to change anything in the short-term or medium term. It's not going to give the present Chief Executive or Board of Management any kudos. It will be 20 years at worst before changes filter down. That's why leaving Don Givens in his position of chief clown of the 21's was disgusting. Sure we'd not been uprooting any trees at 17/19's level, but we are orhave been constantly getting to the elite stage of qualifying, and going onto the finals themselves every so often.
What I'd like to see is that qualification for the the Championship finals becomes the norm for our Under 17 & 19.

Noel King had an immediate impact at Under 21 level. Sure they were tanked the other night by the Germans, but they are going through a golden age of youth football themselves thanks to the good work they've done in the past 15 years, which means they've becoming one of the slickest, and technically brilliant footballing countries rather than the stereotyped efficient brilliant countries they were seen as. The u21's have made definite progress, and they've built something of a niche for themselves by constantly being based in Sligo, and they've definitely ingrained themselves into the North-West/Midlands psyche and have built a decent support base.

As a country, and for our senior side, we need the under 21's to start qualifying for the European finals. To me it's a no-brainer. If the kids coming through are only used to being defeated by their peers from underage level up, then why would they suddenly expect that to change at senior level? Because they play football in England? Give me a break.

[BonnieShels]

Something that is often talked about is taking a diff approach at under age levels and focusing more on skill and tactics than on winning at all costs.

I don't know how all that works in other countries, but it must be worth looking at very closely.

I think the "everything is wrong with Irish football" unfortunately comes from some people at the very top of the game here. Brady wrecked my head last night being so disrespectful towards the players.

We *do* produce excellent players, we always have.. so it must be something else that is wrong.

I've given up on Brady for years. He's too biased to give an honest opinon on Trap's teams. It was a disgrace to get him back on the panel.

[Stuttgart88]

Stutts,

I was listening to a talk in about grassroots coaching etc.. on talksport or 5live recently and one coach (UK based) rang in. The very brief point he made was that their was a one day coaching course/update/briefing or whatever organised by the FA. The cost of the course was something in the region of £350. The club he was a part of had a number of teams but had to rely on local sponsorship, donations from parents etc... to pay for the kit. A team kit probably costs in the region of £350. There was no way he could go and spunk £350 of the clubs money on a day course with a cups of few tea and biccies thrown.

There is a thread on YBIG, that I dip in an out of for a nosey every now and again and amongst the plenty of posts of crap there are some decent contributions from posters who have really struggled to get in to coaching or become frustrated with the inadeqiacies of the set up.

http://www.ybig.ie/forum/coaching-schoolboy-and-youth-football_topic8280_page47.html


Now, I would guess at 10 people attended the course.You're the closest :)

The answer was 4.

[geysir]

I've given up on Brady for years. He's too biased to give an honest opinon on Trap's teams. It was a disgrace to get him back on the panel.
Brady admits bias in that regard, most can take that into perspective when listening to Liam. I think most people can appreciate that Brady is usually reticent when it comes to typical panel bluster criticism of any team/player.
His presence there for the Ireland games was alone justified in his interventions to bring the lunatic Dunphy to task.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought Eamon Sweeney was excellent in today's Sindo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/eamonn-sweeney-buying-policy-comes-at-a-cost-29580362.html

Thoughts?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't tell the Indo-haters on here :rolleyes:, as per the other threads.

With respect to ES, has he sad anything original? As in this has already been said here on this MB and elsewhere.
Plus no mention of the 'cyclical factor', which even affects much bigger countries....

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought Eamon Sweeney was excellent in today's Sindo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/eamonn-sweeney-buying-policy-comes-at-a-cost-29580362.html

Thoughts?
Is it actually excellent? It's hardly anything that hasn't been said in every English paper for the past few years, but the "our players are good enough, if only they'd get the opportunities" argument doesn't wash. The Premier League is full of English players and few of them are within a hoop of making the national team, and that's generally the standard most of the Irish players are at. They're not there because they're not getting experience, they're there because that's their level. The Premier League is far better than it was 10 and 20 years ago, which means it's harder for talented players to make a mark, but that shouldn't mask the deficiencies of our own products.

Even his examples are fairly weak. He holds up Belgium as the counterpoint, yet that's the perfect example of a league that has to compete with two large leagues to each side of it and still manages to give its players a good standard of football from which they can make the leap to more established clubs in better leagues. Belgium's only twice the size of Ireland and their attendances aren't amazing, so it's not like something similar couldn't be replicated here, even if meant we became a feeder league for the Championship rather than the Premier League. The idea that there's no coaching issue is pure fingers-in-the-ears stuff.

[Stuttgart88]

I think it is a great piece because it spells out in simple terms why the argument that "we used to have players in the old top 5 all the time but now we don't means Irish football is now crap" is a load of bunk. The article isnt aimed at the likes of you and me, it's aimed at the casually interested Irish sports fan and it sets out the situation in clear and concise terms. You'd be amazed at how many of my friends have never thought of it this way.

I think Belgium is a good example. All he's saying is Belgian football is able to finish their footballers' professional education to a far better extent than in England where our players and the home countries' players move to at a young age but miss out on the valuable playing experience at a decent level in their late teens early 20s, and the results have been amazing. Simple, but probably accurate. I went to Anderlecht a few times when I was posted to Brussels in the 90s and its a long way off what I've ever seen in the LOI.


I think it's a well written criticism of the acquisitive nature of English football and the Barcelona statistic was interesting. I'd never heard it before. Of course you know everything already.

Yes, he does say that it's got little to do with coaching and more to do with the acquisitive nature of English football. I don't think he's saying that simply playing kids means they become good payers regardless of their coaching, but what I think he is saying that even well coached kids still may not get their chance because they don't get the professional experience when they need it. Belgium probably benefits most in this regard because their well coached kids get professional experience at just a high enough standard to be in the shop window. The LOI isn't at this standard, as evidenced by Seamus Coleman's experience - Blackpool being his stepping stone.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would say the Belgian League is much more like the SPL...based on some Bruges fans I know who regularly attended both.
Though obviously their beer is probably better...

[Charlie Darwin]

The attendances in the Belgian league are actually fairly evenly spread with no a huge amount of difference between the top 4, albeit there is no team with bumper attendances like Celtic or Rangers: http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/bel-jupiler-pro-league-2011-2012/1/

Stutts, I may being a bit over-critical, but my objection lies in the fact it's the same superficial argument that is being put forward in England, and no amount of padding and suspect analysis is going to address its fatal shortcoming, in my opinion. I'm sure Irish and British players do suffer from the Premier League's need for established players ahead of in-house development but I don't think that tendency exists in a vacuum either.


The fact is, as he points out himself with the Belgian example, the major players in the Premier League are coming through but they're coming through from a lower level. I realise he's only giving an overview and not proposing a solution, but surely part of an overview is to point out that there is more than one avenue to the top? There's no connecting of the dots being done. Perhaps the current state of the Premier League points out that Irish players might be better off developing in different leagues, whether that be the Championship, the SPL or further afield. In that case, the junior clubs' insistence on touting players to the biggest academies in search of the biggest transfer fees surely needs to be criticised - is Conor Clifford any better off because he chose to go to Chelsea than to (to pick an example off my head) Nottingham Forest?

It's the fatalism of the argument that kills me. It's the old "world events are conspiring against us" thinking that has captured the British media and which we've seen from the "we just don't have the players, Bill" commentariat in Ireland to justify Trap's intransigence. Beneath all of it lies the naive assumption that any action to reorient the Premier League towards homegrown players would benefit us as much as anybody else.

[BonnieShels]

Brady admits bias in that regard, most can take that into perspective when listening to Liam. I think most people can appreciate that Brady is usually reticent when it comes to typical panel bluster criticism of any team/player.
His presence there for the Ireland games was alone justified in his interventions to bring the lunatic Dunphy to task.

When does Brady admit bias?
Brady's bias is inferred in the inappropriate way he deals with anything connected with Trap.

Lest we not forget he was an initial part of this management team.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought Sweeney's sidebar in the print edition was also good, putting down the horrible cliche "we don't have the players", citing Iceland's excellent campaign under Lagerback as an example of what can be achieved with less heralded players.

[SwanVsDalton]

Yes, he does say that it's got little to do with coaching and more to do with the acquisitive nature of English football. I don't think he's saying that simply playing kids means they become good payers regardless of their coaching, but what I think he is saying that even well coached kids still may not get their chance because they don't get the professional experience when they need it. Belgium probably benefits most in this regard because their well coached kids get professional experience at just a high enough standard to be in the shop window. The LOI isn't at this standard, as evidenced by Seamus Coleman's experience - Blackpool being his stepping stone.

I posted this Rory Smith piece (http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/9376?cc=5739) elsewhere on the forum, not sure if you seen it - but it interestingly takes on this perception. Belgian coaches asserting that the majority of their best players still had to go abroad at an early age to develop.

The LOI isn't the standard we need it to be, but is Belgium the best counterpart if its best players are still getting cherry picked from 16, 17 or 18 (with a few exceptions)?

[Stuttgart88]

VERY interesting contribution here, although I'm not convinced by the Rene Meulensteen suggestion.

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/time-to-start-again/

[Drumcondra 69er]

People have just managed to stop smirking when they see or hear his name.

I haven't..... .

[geysir]

I posted this Rory Smith piece (http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/9376?cc=5739) elsewhere on the forum, not sure if you seen it - but it interestingly takes on this perception. Belgian coaches asserting that the majority of their best players still had to go abroad at an early age to develop.

The LOI isn't the standard we need it to be, but is Belgium the best counterpart if its best players are still getting cherry picked from 16, 17 or 18 (with a few exceptions)?
Rory Smith's piece is lacking some gravitas.
Some players got cherry picked in Belgium when they were in their mid teens.
A few went up the road to Ajax and could come home for lunch now and again, the trains depart on the half hour.
Most Belgian players in the national squad do not get cherry picked in mid teens and can reach intl level whilst growing up in the local league. When they do depart for foreign clubs, they tend to earn a heft fee for the Belgian club.
Of the few players who departed to Ajax and Lille, there is no evidence to suggest that they would not have done very well had they instead signed for a Belgian club.

In my opinion it's a moot argument to show that some of the best players in the Belgian team received their education with Ajax or Lille and that there's no special magic Belgium football education academies which have directly affected the surge in the fate of the national team.
Whats important for the local league, is that the best players can grow up in the set up, before departing for a richer club in a better league.

[Grafter]

They were saying in Indo today that there's an increasing chance of a caretaker manager for German/Kazak games... now this is quite possibly a smokescreen to take some heat off but if it is a caretaker who could you give it too? An underage manager like King would be most likely?

[DannyInvincible]

Well, at least it won't be Don Givens. Or is that to tempt fate? :sweat:

[Stuttgart88]

King for me. Deserves it.