Irish international prospects - not looking good? [Archive]

mark12345

04/08/2013, 4:26 PM

Taking stock of the whole picture over the last few weeks (that's the game at home and the lads that ply their trade across the water), things don't look too clever for the long term health of Irish international football.

Perhaps I was prompted by the sight of Robbie Keane scoring a quite delightful goal against Juventus in Los Angeles on Saturday night, that set me thinking where the next Robbie is coming from? We don't have anyone on the horizon right now who can be considered even close to possessing Robbie's ability. Shane Long is in the box seat but good as he is he has a long way to go before becoming the polished article at international level. Then there is Robbie Brady. As things stand Robbie is facing a stern examination against Premier League defences this season and will not really have the tools for the job (ie. his team mates at Hull City) to help him. Then there's James McClean et al and you go down from there. Strange as it sounds Anthony Stokes is looking more of a likely prospect as the weeks go by. Who would have thought that just a season ago, but that's perhaps the direction the Irish international situation is headed?

Whether Stokes will ever don an Irish shirt again is open to question and ditto Darron Gibson, who is sorely needed to assist James McCarthy in the Irish midfield. Yes there are some bright sparks like Seamus Coleman, Wes Hoolahan, Anthony Pilkington (hopefully) and the one we're all looking for great things from in the future - Jack Grealish. But all of that is looking quite a ways down the road.

Perhaps the most glaring problem affecting the current Irish set up is our complete disconnect with the modern progressive game. Just take a look at any of the pre-season games involving the myriad of clubs from around the world and you'll see that they all play a vastly different game from our version (ie lump the ball forward at all costs and play as few passes out of the back as possible........and then hope for the best because the law of averages says that you'll get a chance or two in any given game). And, unfortunately, there is no end in sight to this malaise, that I can see anyway?

I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.

Furthermore to see the likes of Enda Stevens, Kevin Doyle, Shane Duffy (quite soon leaving Everton on loan it appears) and Keith Fahey, to name but a few of a posse of highly thought of Irish talent, being moved on to a lower standard of football, is quite disconcerting indeed.

Pretty soon the qualifiers against Sweden and Austria will be upon us. Those two games will determine the future of Irish football, and national optimism, for the next few years. I fear we could be in for a long barren spell for the national team.

Is there any hope for the future?

SwanVsDalton

04/08/2013, 4:53 PM

Taking stock of the whole picture over the last few weeks (that's the game at home and the lads that ply their trade across the water), things don't look too clever for the long term health of Irish international football.

Perhaps I was prompted by the sight of Robbie Keane scoring a quite delightful goal against Juventus in Los Angeles on Saturday night, that set me thinking where the next Robbie is coming from? We don't have anyone on the horizon right now who can be considered even close to possessing Robbie's ability. Shane Long is in the box seat but good as he is he has a long way to go before becoming the polished article at international level.

I'm not sure Robbie Keane is the best starting point for this conversation. He's a complete aberration - the way he emerged and systematically destroyed any and all goal scoring records which had stood in a green shirt for the previous fifty odd years. You're right that his successor is unlikely to emerge any time soon - the bigger problem might be even Shane Long's successor could struggle to breakthrough.

I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.

'It's getting positively worse every year' doesn't stand up at all IMO. Back in the days clubs we're getting cleaned out every year was the really bad days. The improvements made over the last decade are phenomenal and only need to be reflected in how the international side now has several LOI graduates amongst its ranks, to show that the gap between LOI and the 'bigger leagues' (such as Scotland and Football League) is a lot smaller.

As has been pointed out, this year has been disappointing. But a closer look at the results is far more revealing - Drogheda lost narrowly to Malmo, who went on to thrash Hibs. St Pats losing to Vilnius was disappointing - but then Vilnius handily beat Pyunik (a side who beat Derry just a year after City's run to the second round) and just defeated Lech Poznan in their first leg. Sligo and Derry were always up against it against Molde and Trabzonspor.

You can't account for difficult draws, and you can't measure how co-efficient improvement has plateaued the kind of strides that can be made. Considering how largely poor, with some notable exceptions, LOI clubs performed year-in-year out in Europe, it's still remarkable clubs can skip the first preliminary stage - there by robbing them of a chance to gain handier co-efficient points - and go straight into a pot with sides claiming at least ten times the budget and/or ten times the fan base.

Likewise you can't brush off Shamrock Rovers' achievement as some mad exception - their run was the culmination of several eye-catching European performances by a variety of teams.

The improvement of the domestic league is evident, even with a local population who largely ignore it. The larger problem is regardless if it's domestic or a British league, the coaching of players is always going to come out short compared to continental Europe.

I do agree with part of your point (or, really, Ray Houghton's point) but I'd love to see another league in Europe producing such great strides in quality for so few paying customers. If it's to improve more, then central investment combined with Ireland's football made people giving more than a passing interest would be a decent start.

Yard of Pace

04/08/2013, 5:52 PM

Is there any hope for the future?

Yes, there's plenty of it. You must have a hell of a hangover for all this doom-mongering. We should have beaten Sweden and Austria and we should be well in control of second place of our group. Even if we don't qualify I'm excited for the new manager taking over. We have some great young talent and some excellent current players who will be around for years to come (unless they fall out with the manager). If we're lucky a new Robbie will emerge from nowhere (like the original one seemed to do). But if not, we will have the players to adapt and we have a heap of forwards who are more than capable of putting away a chance if its presented to them.

liamoo11

04/08/2013, 8:43 PM

It is a bit of a low ebb for us at the moment. we have had good underage success at 19s a few yrs ago but based on a team effort with no one emerging from that team that got to the semis in the euros who is ever going to be a champions league player. If you look at the best players we have had at under 19/17 in the last few yrs who are still with top clubs it is nearly impossible to see them breaking through. What chance sam byrne ever been centre forward for utd? Alex O Hanlon been a no 10 for liverpool?Jack Byrne anchoring midfield at man city? These are outstanding footballers who are doing great to get into their club sides at underage level but it seems fanciful to think of them as first team players. Jack grealish might break through for villa but wood he get a look in at a big club? Conor henderson conor clifford and conor hourihane(who was named in top 10players at the euro under 17s) were all same age group with 3 premiership clubs and noted for their technical ability. Now they are 22/23 one played in league 2 on saturday, another sat on the bench watching him and the third has no club at the beginning of the season.

Crosby87

04/08/2013, 8:49 PM

Too many Conors.

ArdeeBhoy

04/08/2013, 10:15 PM

??

Haven't we had this thread umpteen times before? Even this year, probably...

The Fly

04/08/2013, 10:20 PM

Is there any hope for the future?

Yep...

http://footballrepublic.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/el-clasico-future.jpg

...;)

Charlie Darwin

04/08/2013, 10:50 PM

Strange as it sounds Anthony Stokes is looking more of a likely prospect as the weeks go by. Who would have thought that just a season ago, but that's perhaps the direction the Irish international situation is headed?
This isn't particularly new though. Robbie, as SVD said, is an abberation, the best goalscorer this country has ever produced by a mile. Stokes is quite clearly the most natural gifted and technically adept striker we've produced since Robbie, but it's the other aspects of his game and personality that have stopped him fulfilling anything close to his potential.

I suppose the ultimate manifestation of the poverty of the Irish situation comes with the absolutely abject performances of the domestic clubs in trying to qualify for the European competitions. It's getting positively worse every year - admittedly Shamrock Rovers had a good run two seasons ago. It was said not so long ago by Ray Houghton among several others who think similarly, that the success of the Irish international team, long term, would be improved if we can improve the domestic league. If that's the case we're in **** poor shape.
The domestic clubs punch above their weight. They knock out teams with budgets multiples of theirs in countries where the cost of living is infinitely less.

'It's getting positively worse every year' doesn't stand up at all IMO. Back in the days clubs we're getting cleaned out every year was the really bad days. The improvements made over the last decade are phenomenal and only need to be reflected in how the international side now has several LOI graduates amongst its ranks, to show that the gap between LOI and the 'bigger leagues' (such as Scotland and Football League) is a lot smaller.
I'd go one further and say the number of LOI graduates in the Irish set-up clearly goes to show that the type of football being played in the League of Ireland prepares players far better for the rigors of top-class football than the English feeder system. Your Boltons and your Stoke Cities may have more talented players but they don't teach their players to play the way Irish clubs do.

As has been pointed out, this year has been disappointing. But a closer look at the results is far more revealing - Drogheda lost narrowly to Malmo, who went on to thrash Hibs. St Pats losing to Vilnius was disappointing - but then Vilnius handily beat Pyunik (a side who beat Derry just a year after City's run to the second round) and just defeated Lech Poznan in their first leg. Sligo and Derry were always up against it against Molde and Trabzonspor.
Not to mention Pats surrendered a winning position against Vilnius. Any other year they wouldn't have done so.

Crosby87

04/08/2013, 11:23 PM

Zak and John Joe need haircuts.

Charlie Darwin

04/08/2013, 11:28 PM

Apparently John Joe hasn't decided if he wants to play for Ireland or Spain. I think we should get our EPN (Elite Player Mentor) on the case.

Supreme feet

05/08/2013, 12:01 AM

I don't think it's fair to judge the general technical standard of Irish players solely on the national team. Trapattoni has set up the team to play an attritional game, with no emphasis on possession, favouring a certain central midfielder who is so technically limited that he slows down the entire team when we have the ball. Against Austria, we played with two out-and-out target-men (three if you include Walters on the wing) which no modern tactician would ever contemplate. It's near-impossible for any group of players to look technically competent under these circumstances.

There has been plenty of technical ability at underage levels in the last few years. The U-21s won in Italy and beat Holland recently enough, and most of that age group reached the European semis in 2011. The problem is that players need game-time at a decent level to make genuine progress in their careers, and therein lies the problem. The EPL clubs are sourcing higher-profile players at greater expense. This transfer window alone, Sunderland signed a current Italian international, Norwich signed two Dutch internationals, while Stoke signed Holland's current left-back and a Barcelona fringe defender. All of these players are in direct competition with Irish players for their starting places, despite these players (McClean, Hoolahan, Wilson) being full internationals themselves. Ten years ago, Leeds challenged for the title - from that squad, Dacourt and Bakke were the only players from non-Anglophone nations, and at one time, there were five Irish internationals at the club. That won't happen again in the near future. The EPL is not a nurturing environment for Irish players any more, and that doesn't look like changing anytime soon, as it becomes increasingly a billionaire's playground.

Looking at the current Croatian squad, they have representatives from nine different European leagues, including their own. It would be much better for Irish players to follow McGeady and O'Dea's examples and get out of the English system, because the trend is being set for good Irish (and English) players to drop to the technically abysmal Championship level just to get first-team football. It's a pity that Henderson and Clifford haven't been sounded out by Continental clubs, but then, most Continental clubs don't scout young Irish players because they just assume they'll end up in the UK.

The obvious solution would be for young Irish players to develop in a strong domestic league, where they can play in Europe every year, and clubs can name their price from interested clubs in bigger leagues. But that's unlikely to happen any time soon, for reasons that are better discussed elsewhere.

ArdeeBhoy

05/08/2013, 12:10 AM

Supreme feet

05/08/2013, 12:24 AM

Good last post, but surely if Henderson & Clifford were deemed good enough for the current Eng.Championship/Div.'2' they would be readily snapped up as there's enough clubs there with financial problems looking to sign decent-ish players on the cheap?

They'd be looking to sign decent 'experienced' players on the cheap, that's the thing. Any team in that league could conceivably end up in a relegation battle, so managers are going to favour grizzled pros who have seen it all before, rather than blooding youngsters, especially 'creative' ones. Although Henderson was on trial at Ipswich, and given what I've seen of him for the U-21s, and looking at Ipswich's other midfielders, I really can't figure out how he was passed over.

Grafter

05/08/2013, 12:30 AM

Supreme feet

05/08/2013, 12:53 AM

I would have said that there were worse times in terms of Irish players coming through in the past 20 years....
Take 1997 for example as a low point.... squeezing what we could out of likes of Townsend 34, Houghton 35, Cascarino 35.... playing the likes of Jon Goodman and Mickey Evans upfront.... not to mention putting David Connolly on a pedestal as our great white hope....

Things could be worse at present for us....:rolleyes:

Very true. 96/97 was a dark period. Mad to think that in the first 'B' game in 1998, we played Finnan, Dunne, Kinsella, Duff and Keane - all of whom were uncapped at that stage. Just shows how quickly things can change.

Charlie Darwin

05/08/2013, 12:54 AM

Very true. 96/97 was a dark period. Mad to think that in the first 'B' game in 1998, we played Finnan, Dunne, Kinsella, Duff and Keane - all of whom were uncapped at that stage. Just shows how quickly things can change.
Keane and Duff were pretty hot properties though. Kennedy too around that time, and Given.

samhaydenjr

05/08/2013, 1:28 AM

I don't think there's a need to be too pessimistic about our chances over the next 5-8 years (beyond that time frame it's impossible to predict what the team would look like) - while we've lost a few outright stars (Given, Dunne, Duff) there seems to be enough young talent already established to keep us competitive, with the possibility of some stars still to emerge - remember, we only need to be able to put out 11 good players at a time:
- In goal, yes we don't have anybody the calibre of Given as yet but we do have some solid established options to choose from - Forde, Westwood, Randolph, with the possibility of adding Mark Bunn and Rob Elliott and also the chance that Stephen Henderson might establish himself at West Ham or elsewhere
- In defence, Seamus Coleman can now be viewed as a genuine star and if Joey O'Brien can be brought back into the fold we have both cover for him and flexibility should we want to play him at right-wing. In central defence, we may be short a bit of depth, but Clark looks like he'll be around for a while, particularly if he reduces his errors, St. Ledger should still be playing in five years' time - we have Richard Keogh and Darren O'Dea as back-up with the possibility of Shane Duffy, Tommie Hoban and Noe Baba breaking through. At left-back, Marc Wilson will be around for a while and Bradley Garmston just got some decent loan game time at Colchester and may push for a squad place at West Brom this season - if he makes the grade we may end up with the fastest full-back combination in international football!
- Midfield is where our future looks brightest - Robbie Brady is fast becoming a star, James McCarthy has started to really deliver on his promise and Aiden McGeady is now at the peak of his career. We can use Coleman as back-up for Brady, with McClean challenging McGeady for left-wing, along with Sean Scannell, who's still not 23 yet. We have a number of realistic options in terms of partnering McCarthy - Hendrick, Pilkington, & Meyler; a talented player in exile, Gibson, who may be back once Trap leaves; some exciting young emerging talent in Jack Grealish, Samir Carruthers and Sean Murray; and the possibility of a couple of players emulating Hoolahan & Andrews by establishing themselves in the Premier League later in their career - Garvan and Quinn.
- Up front, of course it's going to be a loss when Robbie Keane calls it a day, but let's not panic yet - he's likely going to continue banging them in for us for the next three years at least; Anthony Stokes looked really lively against Ross County and seems ready to lead the line for Celtic, so if he gets his personal stuff sorted out he could yet be Keano's immediate successor; Leon Best returned with a very good goal against Derby and is still only 26; Shane Long is still scoring reasonably regularly, if not prolifically; if Paddy Madden can carry over his record from last season to the Championship, he will be in contention for a place within the next year; and by the time Keane does retire, one or more of Graham Burke, Michael Drennan, Sean Maguire or Philip Roberts, who scored on his debut for Falkirk yesterday, could become strikers of note.
- And finally, over this 5-8 year time scale there will be any number of players working their way through the English academy system, or starting off professional careers at LOI clubs with the prospect of moving to England in their early 20s, or playing for our underage national teams, or kids who were just inspired by Euro 2012 qualification to become really serious about their football who may emerge to become the backbone of our team in the medium term.

Charlie Darwin

05/08/2013, 1:36 AM

Interesting you bring up Coleman because I think he will really prosper under Martinez, as I think the reason Coleman took so long to establish himself for Everton is the same reason John O'Shea did so well at Manchester United, which is that Moyes always needed a defensive right back to balance Leighton Baines - the best attacking full back in the Premier League not named Ashley or Patrice - so Hibbard or Neville always got the nod. Martinez, as we saw at Wigan, gives his full backs free reign to attack but has never had players good enough to do both attacking and defensive duties well. Coleman and Baines are a big step up for him. Coleman will thrive under Martinez whereas Baines will pretty much do what he always has. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Coleman move up to a top club in the next couple of years, either in England or Europe.

gastric

05/08/2013, 4:16 AM

Charlie has mentioned in the past that young players who go to England don't often have the physicality that is needed to cope with first team football at the higher levels. Added to this, is the unbelievable number of foreign signings as teams look for quick ways to achieve success.

This has created limited opportunities for many young talented players to succeed early on in their careers. For me, someone who epitomises how our future players might develop is Alan Judge. He was let go by a Premiership team went down a few divisions and now having done his apprenticeship is now on the way back up.
I think this is the way things will be from now on and it means we will need to be patient with the youngsters who are coming through.

Edit: Judge seems to have been influential at the weekend.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/derby-county-1-blackburn-rovers-1-leon-best-rescues-point-for-rovers-8745499.html

Bungle

05/08/2013, 12:47 PM

The big countries have ups and downs. Countries like Ireland are heavily dependent on a batch of players coming through like 1998 when Duffer, Keano and a few others broke into our team. I would agree that we don't seem to have players of that calibre, but this isn't the full story...the game has changed greatly over the past decade or so. Back in 1998, the Premiership was only really beginning to embrace big name imports. Clubs like Leeds were in or around the best teams in the League and they had mostly Irish and English players. Now, clubs like United, Chelsea, city and arsenal have some of the top young talents in the game, while many consider Liverpool to have the best academy in England and possibly as good an academy as Barca. These clubs have kids from all over the world.

This sounds utterly depressing, but we will always produce top players, just like Wales have with Bale. It might be that it will be a lad like Hendrick who comes through at a less heralded club, or it will be a young guy from the domestic game who takes his chance a la Paul McGrath or Roy Keane, or it will be one of the young lads at big clubs like Jack Byrne or Alex O'hanlon.

Speaking of talents to keep an eye out for, I see Daniel cleary captained Liverpool to winning the Milk Cup. O'hanlon played as well, but Cleary seems to have been excellent.

Crosby87

05/08/2013, 10:50 PM

samhaydenjr

06/08/2013, 1:19 AM

In the end though, aren't we kind of in a dark period right now? Or is the point that it could get darker? Euro 12 aside, I think Trap had dark hair the last time we were in a World Cup.
I guess I would ask what constitutes a dark era for everyone.

I don't think it's a dark period, more of a transitional period and with that comes a lot of uncertainty as to whether we have the players coming through to replace those who have retired or will be retiring soon (Given, Dunne, Duff, Keane primarily). But, as I said earlier, there's already some young players who are already starting to deliver fully on their promise (McCarthy, Coleman), a bunch who are delivering at least partially who we can be fairly confident will be able to deliver in years to come to some extent at least (Clark, Brady, Long, Meyler, McClean, Hendrick, Wilson, Pilkington, Randolph), quite a bit of emerging talent on the horizon who may or may not turn out to be stars (Grealish, Hoban, Baba, Garmston, Roberts, Madden, Reilly, Burke, Drennan, Maguire, Carruthers, O'Brien, McGinty, Duffy, Cleary, O'Hanlon, a couple of Byrnes, Hayhurst) a few exiles who may be coaxed back after Trap leaves (Gibson, Stokes, Best, Ireland...OK that last one was only for a laugh) and some who may emerge in the middle of their careers a la Andrews and Hoolahan (Garvan, Quinn). So overall, based on what's out there right now, I would say that we'll have weaker (but still decent) goalkeeping, our full-back situation is more positive than it has been for a while, central defence is heavily dependent on Clark's development, left midfield is inevitably weaker than when Duff was playing (but then again, we do have McGeady, so not a catastrophe) we may be significantly stronger in central and right mid and, while Keano's retirement will inevitably leave an arm-waving hole upfront, that's not likely to happen for another three years (maybe five, if his own plans come true), which may give time for one of the aforementioned young forwards to emerge or for somebody else to burst on the scene.

peadar1987

06/08/2013, 12:19 PM

I think it's a good point about dropping down to the Football League being a negative influence on our players. I'd much prefer to see the guys who don't make it in the Premier League for whatever reason going to play in the top flights, even for lower ranked teams, in places like Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Holland, Poland, Greece, wherever, where they'd be able to probably still get decent wages, and I'm guessing a lot more game time than in the lower reaches in England, where it's been rightly pointed out that the emphasis is on players being tough and experienced than actually any good technically.

ArdeeBhoy

06/08/2013, 12:23 PM

peadar1987

06/08/2013, 12:43 PM

Fair point, but they tend to go for what they know, or maybe to the US or Oz, given the chance. Would say language is a big factor...

And half those countries are going through 'economic extremes' as in have no money, or a very high cost of living, which also puts parties off one another.

You're probably right that language is a big factor (although none of them seem to have a problem moving to Scotland!)

In a thread a while back about a national schoolboy academy, somebody suggested combining top-class football coaching with your education, so you'd get sports science, physiotherapy, nutrition and coaching qualifications alongside your playing skills, but also a strong focus on languages. I thought it was a great idea, as it would give the players who do make it a chance to go and experience different leagues and improve their skill set, and even the ones who don't would come out, hopefully with the skills to get into coaching, and work abroad in their systems, hopefully coming back to Ireland in the future with skills that could be used to improve the game here.

Bungle

08/08/2013, 7:24 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2381851/Premier-League-youth-prospects-2013-2014-Manchester-United-Manchester-City-Arsenal-Chelsea.html

Seems promising!!

DannyInvincible

08/08/2013, 8:08 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2381851/Premier-League-youth-prospects-2013-2014-Manchester-United-Manchester-City-Arsenal-Chelsea.html

Seems promising!!

Quite a few Irish in there. Good to see.

The Murphy twins at Norwich aren't eligible for us too, are they?

By the way, have Arsenal adopted an Asian sponsor this season or did they bedeck their shirts with Japanese font just for an Asian tour?:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/31/article-0-1AF0A47D000005DC-996_634x467.jpg

Serb

09/08/2013, 9:54 AM

By the way, have Arsenal adopted an Asian sponsor this season or did they bedeck their shirts with Japanese font just for an Asian tour?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/31/article-0-1AF0A47D000005DC-996_634x467.jpg

From the Emirates' Japanese website:

http://cl.ly/image/0r0x0H2F1f1z/%E5%9B%BD%E9%9A%9B%E7%B7%9A_-_%E8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E5%88%B8%E4%BA%88%E7%B4%84_-_%E3%82%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%84%E8% 88%AA%E7%A9%BA_-_%E3%82%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%84%E8% 88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC-2.png

tricky_colour

09/08/2013, 9:56 AM

Hey!!!! (from the Daily Mail link) Kenny McEvoy, I will **** myself he turns out as good as his look-a-like, and yes the picture is of Kenny McEvoy not Gareth Bale!! (at least I think it is, hope the DM have not mixed the photo's up!!).

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/31/article-2381851-1B148D70000005DC-467_634x801.jpg

Yard of Pace

11/08/2013, 10:59 AM

Worth mentioning that in the Fans' Preview in the Guardian today, Noe Baba, Jack Grealish and Rory Donnelly are all mentioned as being players to watch.

Things are never as bad as they may seem.

Supreme feet

11/08/2013, 11:26 AM

Worth mentioning that in the Fans' Preview in the Guardian today, Noe Baba, Jack Grealish and Rory Donnelly are all mentioned as being players to watch.

Things are never as bad as they may seem.

Lets not jinx them! We have quite a poor record in terms of 'boy wonders', though. Most of our players seem to emerge through promotions and transfers to the EPL from the lower leagues.

Andrews and Whelan were not the most talented midfielders in their underage groups - Andrews, in particular, was behind McPhail, Barry and Alan Quinn, Healy and probably one or two others when he was U-21. Whelan was rated behind Shaun Thornton and Darren Potter. Who would have thought they'd be our primary central midfield options for two whole campaigns? Given that trend, players like Owen Garvan, Chris McCann and Stephen Quinn could all have something to offer in the near future.

tetsujin1979

11/08/2013, 11:36 AM

DannyInvincible

11/08/2013, 12:52 PM

I thought he'd made himself unavailable for selection by the IFA.

Sullivinho

11/08/2013, 1:41 PM

Donnelly is in the Northern Ireland U21 squad this week

Being in an NI U21 squad is a somewhat noncommittal gesture in the grand scheme of a player realising his potential.

DannyInvincible

11/08/2013, 1:51 PM

Is there any significance to him having opted out of the competitive under-21 fixture against Cyprus whilst accepting a call-up for an under-21 friendly fixture against Denmark, I wonder?

Charlie Darwin

11/08/2013, 6:33 PM

Paddy Garcia

11/08/2013, 6:46 PM

Paul George got a little game time yesterday.

Yard of Pace

11/08/2013, 11:06 PM

I didn't think Baba was anywhere close to the first team - it would be nice to be proved wrong.

If a random (presumably) English Fulham fan fancies him to feature then he must be pretty close. He seems to be developing at a fair rate of knots to be fair to him. Hopefully that continues and he sticks with us.

Charlie Darwin

11/08/2013, 11:15 PM

If a random (presumably) English Fulham fan fancies him to feature then he must be pretty close. He seems to be developing at a fair rate of knots to be fair to him. Hopefully that continues and he sticks with us.
Well the Daily Mail picked him out as well, and the Guardian's preview might be a fan's view but it's presumably a fan with his ear to the ground. They're not going to just ask the first fan they find walking along the street.

Yard of Pace

11/08/2013, 11:16 PM

Well the Daily Mail picked him out as well, and the Guardian's preview might be a fan's view but it's presumably a fan with his ear to the ground.

Ah, lovely

Noe Baba ‏@noebaba (https://twitter.com/noebaba) 10 Aug (https://twitter.com/noebaba/status/366291621135908865) great to see the boys in the national team great to back with the ireland squad!

Yard of Pace

11/08/2013, 11:18 PM

He's quite the comedian actually. Some entertaining stuff on his twitter machine, as far as these things go.

ArdeeBhoy

11/08/2013, 11:20 PM

Worth mentioning that in the Fans' Preview in the Guardian today, Noe Baba, Jack Grealish and Rory Donnelly are all mentioned as being players to watch.

Link here. And to Part 2, at the top of Part 1!
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/10/premier-league-fans-part-one

Bungle

12/08/2013, 9:05 AM

Bungle

12/08/2013, 9:17 AM

Lets not jinx them! We have quite a poor record in terms of 'boy wonders', though. Most of our players seem to emerge through promotions and transfers to the EPL from the lower leagues.

Andrews and Whelan were not the most talented midfielders in their underage groups - Andrews, in particular, was behind McPhail, Barry and Alan Quinn, Healy and probably one or two others when he was U-21. Whelan was rated behind Shaun Thornton and Darren Potter. Who would have thought they'd be our primary central midfield options for two whole campaigns? Given that trend, players like Owen Garvan, Chris McCann and Stephen Quinn could all have something to offer in the near future.

Really thought that Owen Garvan was going to be something really special. I was living in Norwich when he broke into the Ipswich team at about 17, and the Ipswich lads I was working with were raving about him. If I remember, Ipswich were a decent Championship team too...ah well!!

Agreed about the "boy wonder" bit. Football is a tough industry and I truly believe that sometimes the less heralded players (whether it be an Andrews, Whelan, Kevin Philips, Rickie Lambert) learn the skills to make themselves very good pros without the horrible weight of expectation that guys like Noe Baba, Grealish or Alex o'Hanlon (could be great young pros but using them as examples of our current boy wonders) have on their shoulders, while the "boy wonder" gets caught up with agents and all the more negative things in the game.

DannyInvincible

12/08/2013, 6:58 PM

If a random (presumably) English Fulham fan fancies him to feature then he must be pretty close. He seems to be developing at a fair rate of knots to be fair to him. Hopefully that continues and he sticks with us.

No need to worry. He's not eligible for any other nation, as far as I know. He's an Irish national and, despite him having been born in Cameroon, Cameroon doesn't permit dual citizenship.

DannyInvincible

12/08/2013, 7:09 PM

I think it is fair to say that Ryan McLaughlin of Liverpool wants to play for us and that him removing himself from consideration for the North is his first step in doing this. Michael O'Neill has been a bit lousy in how he mentioned us though. The North have picked up a few players from us, so it works both ways.

Indeed, it is petty and mopish of O'Neill to mention possible FAI "targetting" of McLaughlin, but the lad stated in no uncertain terms to O'Neill that he had no intention whatsoever of switching to the FAI, so I'm not sure why you think it's fair to assume he wants to play for us: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23655967

"Ryan has decided that he just doesn't want to make himself available to play for Northern Ireland," O'Neill added in his interview with the Sunday Life.

"We had notification from Liverpool that he wanted to stay and concentrate on his club career at this minute in time and he wouldn't be available for the Under-21 team or the senior squad."

O'Neill attempted to change McLaughlin's mind on the issue by holding face-to-face discussions with the defender but these proved to no avail.

"I met him face-to-face and also with Brendan (Rodgers) there. Stephen Robinson (Northern Ireland Under-21 coach) met him in the summer while he was at home in Belfast.

"(But) Ryan feels at this moment in time that coming away on international duty will be detrimental to his progress at Liverpool.

"I don't really understand that and I told Ryan that when I met him.

"Liverpool have encouraged him to come away with us. I've had conversations with Brendan (Rodgers) and Barry Hunter (coach) about it. They both want him to play for us and have told him that."

Darron Gibson and James McClean are among a number of Northern Ireland-born players who have switched allegiance to the Republic of Ireland in recent years but McLaughlin has told O'Neill that he will not be following that path.

"The player has assured me that is not in his thinking or an issue," added the Northern Ireland manager.

"I would not be surprised if he has been targeted in some way by the Republic of Ireland but when a player sits down and tells me face-to-face that it isn't an eligibility issue, I have to believe him."

Having said that, I do have sympathy for the North, even though I think that it is imperative that Nationalist youngsters (Catholic or Protestant) have the right to play for the Republic.

Hmm, why the sympathy then exactly? They could take responsibility for their own affairs perfectly well if only they'd take the initiative instead of continually whining about being victims of unfair loopholes, sectarian agenda and other such nonsense.

Bungle

12/08/2013, 7:50 PM

I'm going on the fact that he is clearly a big fan of the Republic, if you judge his twitter. International football improves players, whether you are playing for Germany, the Republic of Ireland or the North. He is not yet a top player, right now he is only one of the best young players at Liverpool. If I was his agent and I'm guessing an extremely talented lad like Ryan has one, I would be encouraging him to play international football. He is a young lad of 18 or 19 and it is only my opinion (might be wrong) that he has been involved with the North for many years and finds the whole process of moving to play for us difficult, especially if he has developed friendships with other players/coaches. He is not an average young player and there have been people talking about him since he is 15. I know from being a father to young lads of a similar age that the truth is often told in a very roundabout manner, so I wouldn't read too much into what O'Neill is saying about him not being interested in playing for us.

Sullivinho

12/08/2013, 8:18 PM

I think it is fair to say that Ryan McLaughlin of Liverpool wants to play for us and that him removing himself from consideration for the North is his first step in doing this.

I'm inclined to agree. Isn't this the lad who all but kept a running Twitter commentary on Ireland's 'performances' during Euro 2012? I also suspect his insistance to Michael O'Neill that his decision isn't an 'eligibility issue' is an effort to avoid becoming the subject of a contentious headline and to leave certain bridges undamaged by fire, should they need to be crossed again at some point in the future.

All circumstantial speculation on my behalf of course. It could be that he just doesn't appreciate the way the current NI kit accentuates his elbows. Players have retired for less.