Confederations Cup 2013

[BonnieShels]

Definitely. I was a shade too young to fully understand Italia '90 so USA '94 was my big introduction to the World Cup and I loved being able to stay up after midnight. I remember watching Argentina - Nigeria or something in my granny's house.

I would be maybe slightly older than yourself and with a mild recollection of Italia 90.

USA 94 was the business for that. 2002 was the best though because we got breakfasts laid on in work and the like for the 7am games.

[Metrostars]

Definitely. I was a shade too young to fully understand Italia '90 so USA '94 was my big introduction to the World Cup and I loved being able to stay up after midnight. I remember watching Argentina - Nigeria or something in my granny's house.
Jeez, I'm old - I was at that Argentina-Nigeria game:)

[pineapple stu]

So you got to stay up beyond midnight too? :p

[IsMiseSean]

Always prefer the late night games. Didn't like the 2002 schedule, I'm not a morning person....

[Charlie Darwin]

Is it just me or is Jordi Alba a really poor defender? His positional sense is dreaful.

[Charlie Darwin]

Italy should be about 32-0 up by now.

[IsMiseSean]

Great game, atmosphere sounds good too.

[geysir]

I tried being patriotic and watch it on rte but Ray got to me, ground me down to the pits of despair with his relentless negativity in the face of such an exciting game and nearly had me strung up to the ceiling lamp hook.

Brazilian crowd are just brilliant.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sick pass from Iniesta. Even Ray had to grudgingly applaud that one.

[geysir]

Martin Keown on BBC reckons nobody wants to see this game go to penalties. I for one think a penalty shoot out would be the icing on the cake
If ever a game looks like going to penalties it's this one.

[Charlie Darwin]

Penalties are a lottery, Gary.

[geysir]

BBC have been effusive in their praise of the officiating decisions.


Pirlo's going to miss.

[Charlie Darwin]

No chance Pirlo will miss. Spain will win though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Candreva just did a Panenka. Pirlo is not going to be happy.

[Charlie Darwin]

Wow, I was convinced De Rossi's was going over the bar but somehow it snuck under.

[geysir]

De Rossi's was the best one, but statistics (slightly) prove that going for the high up into the corner is the riskiest choice.

[DeLorean]

That was the most thrilling match I've seen in years. It felt like a World Cup Final such was the commitment and tension. Fantastic.

[geysir]

Definitely good when Spain sit back and give the other team a chance to shine.

Is there another season left in Pirlo?

[Charlie Darwin]

That was the most thrilling match I've seen in years. It felt like a World Cup Final such was the commitment and tension. Fantastic.
I actually had to remind myself a few times it wasn't the final. It would have been fit for a final though.


De Rossi's was the best one, but statistics (slightly) prove that going for the high up into the corner is the riskiest choice
Riskier than straight down the middle?


Is there another season left in Pirlo?
There's possibly two more World Cups in Pirlo.

[geysir]

Peno stats, success rate
Down the middle 100%
Down low to the corner 100%
Up high to the corner 66%

[Charlie Darwin]

Where is this from?

[pineapple stu]

Maybe ask John Bowe? :p

If England and Italy met in a penalty shoot-out, who'd win?

[geysir]

Where is this from?
The penalty shoot-out of course.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Always prefer the late night games. Didn't like the 2002 schedule, I'm not a morning person....
Not if you were there...



That was the most thrilling match I've seen in years. It felt like a World Cup Final such was the commitment and tension. Fantastic.
You are joking?

[BonnieShels]

Really enjoyable. Sickened by the end result. The penalties were top drawer. Unreal.

Are you watching Mick McCarthy?

[IsMiseSean]

Not if you were there...


I had the important matter of the LC to complete, which I've yet to use in life...

[TheBoss]

Not sure it was an exciting game as some here suggested. The 1st was good, but the rest of the game was not great, the players were hammered as a result of the hot conditions. The penalties were top class, a good way to end an laborious game.

I think this tournament highlights the problem that Euro teams will have in Brazil next summer, they are going to struggle really badly due to the hot weather. We saw Italy struggle in their group despite qualifying but when they played a Euro team, they performed better as Spain themselves succumbed to the conditions, we also saw that against Nigeria. They may get away with it after 2/3 games, but it is a massive ask for a Euro team to perform in 7 games to win this competition next summer. Do we really want to see Ireland qualify?, cause it could be worse than the Euro's !!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't worry;with the present incumbent there's no chance...

In all seriousness, good point about potential conditions but the European 'Latin' teams should be used to this.

[Charlie Darwin]

Do we really want to see Ireland qualify?, cause it could be worse than the Euro's !!
I'd rather qualify and lose all our games than not qualify at all. The legions of navel-gazers who think otherwise can do one as far as I'm concerned.

[IsMiseSean]

I'm with Charlie on this one.
Think of all the optimism/excitement everyone would have in the lead up, well maybe not ArdeeBhoy...

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd be excited! :rolleyes:
If it happened...

[patrickccfc]

1-0 brazil.. some start.. unreal atmosphere

[peadar1987]

Well that was loud!

[patrickccfc]

great goal line clearance by luiz there.. first real chance for spain and its taken 40mins

[patrickccfc]

what a goal by neymar!! 2-0

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good game, good performance by Brazil. One major criticism is apparently lenient reffing in their favour?

But Spain looked fairly ropey tonight.

[Charlie Darwin]

Good game, good performance by Brazil. One major criticism is apparently lenient reffing in their favour?
Failing to send off two Spain defenders?

Brazil were immense, but Spain were awful in equal measure. The Spanish FA need to look at giving the players a real rest before the World Cup - they have flogged them to death.

[geysir]

Not even a consolation goal for Spain last night, when things go wrong, they go all the way wrong. That was an utterly dominant performance by Brazil.
Not a bad tournament and a taster of what Brazil will be like at the WC with that fanatical crowd behind them, no need for the vuvuzela there.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Meant more, lenient reffing throughout the whole tournament...

And the Brazilians must play almost as much football as the Spanish. This is now an aging team which at some point will start to unravel full stop.

[gustavo]

I can only think of Casillas and Xavi that are over 30 from the team that started last night so wouldn't call them ageing really. It's only 1 result really so I wouldn't go overboard they're still a class team. Brazil I think were really fired up for it and the extra wear from their semi final against Italy seemed to take its toll.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ok, maybe more 'burnt out';even the few Spaniards I know reckon this and the advancing years thing are an issue.

And another year/long club season for many of their top players won't help?

[Stuttgart88]

Is there a team anywhere that isn't ageing?

I think they're simply knackered to be honest. They've been flogged to within an inch of their lives over 4 years or more of advanced stages of CL, long league season and post-season tournaments.

I think the team could probably use with some new personnel just to shake things up, and would be improved by an aggressive CB. I preferred Senna of 2008 to Busquets and think a change in that position might benefit them.

[Closed Account 2]

The strange thing was Italy (against Uruguay) didn't look anything like as spent as the Spanish despite playing with less rest time, in a hotter city (Salvador) and during a hotter time of day (daytime not night).

I think age, possibly together with the climate, will be a factor next year. At the World Cup Xavi will be 34, Iniesta will be 30. Upfront Villa will be 32, Torres 30, both Llorrente and Soldado 29 - it's likely all 4 will have moved clubs (possibly all will have moved leagues too) so they could be struggling for form. The current keepers will be over 30 (Cassillias will be 33, Valdez 32 and Reina 31) maybe De Gea can come in, but it's not a given he will be able to slot into the team that easily since he's hardly played with the rest of the Spanish defence. Carlos Poyol will be 36 and in all likely hood wont be at the World Cup, but this leaves them a little suspect at the back. While both Pique and Ramos are good at brining the ball forward and driving out of defence, neither of them are great at basic defending - they dont have the positional sense nor are they great in the air, compared to say Thiago Silva or Puyol. Full back could be a problem too, since Arbeola will be 31.

It could be a case of the youth team sucessfully stepping up and plugging some of those holes, but from what I've seen the most gifted youth team players for them are diminutive attacking midfielders or wingers. Thiago Alcantera, Koke, Muniain, Isco, Canales, Tello, Oilver Torres - all great or potentially great players, but they are all of very similar ilk, well under 6ft and all tiki-taka short passing midfielders or wingers, it's nice to have options like that but when you already have players like Mata, Cazorla, Navas, Silva it's overloading in certain positions. Where are the next generation of defenders or strikers? Under 21/20 players in those positions dont seem to be of the same quality.

Alvaro Dominguez had a reasonable season at Leverkusen, but he's 24 and the fact Atletico let him go last summer suggests he maybe isnt a world beater. Bartra has looked pretty poor as a defender at Barca, maybe one of the very young players like Derik Osede or Israel Puerto will become a great defending center back, but unless something dramatic happens in the next year, WC2014 is likely to be too early for them. It's the same with strikers, perhaps Alvaro Morata or Alavaro Vazquez could become good strikers but there are a load of factors such as game time or being pushed out to different positions, which suggest this wont happen that soon.

Spain will still be a strong team, but the idea that this Spanish team would be invincible and march on to lift the World Cup in Rio next year without any trouble (plugged by the BBC and a fair amout of Telegraph and Guardian journos) was always fanciful.

[Closed Account 2]

Is there a team anywhere that isn't ageing?


Obviously time moves at the same rate for any given player... but I think the point he was trying to make is that perhaps the Spanish team is a bit stale in terms of there are maybe quite a few positions for them where the players have been the same for 4-5 years and now a few of those players are on the downward curve of their career...

It's interesting to look at the possible strongest line ups for other big teams and you can see maybe these teams are a little younger than the Spanish:

Germany (age at next World Cup) - all have played at a Euro or WC except Kruse

Neuer (28)
Lahm (30)
Hummels (25)
Badstuber (25)
J. Boateng (25) / Schmelzer (26)
Kehdira (27)
Ozil (25)
Schweinsteiger (29) / Muller (24)
Reus (25)
Goetze (22)
Gomez (28) / Kruse (26)


France
Lloris (27)
Clichy (28)
Koscielny (28) / Varane (21)
Rami (28) / Sakho (24)
Debuchy (28)
Pogba (21) / Diarra (29)
Payet (27)
Nasri (27) / Thauvin (21)
Gourcouff (27)
Benzema (26)
Giroud (27) / Remy (27)

Argentina
Romero (27)
Ansaldi (27)
Garay (27)
Federico Fernandez (25) / Colocini (32)
Zabaleta (29)
Banega (25)
Gaitan (26) / Lamela (22)
Lavezzi (29) / Di Maria (26)
Messi (26)
Aguero (26)
Higuain (26)


I would say it's the same for Colombia and possibly the Belgians. Italy are traditionally thought of as an aging team, but if you look at the probable starting 11, they have two massive age spikes around Pirlo and Buffon (with a real decision to make on the latter), but also have a lot of young players who you would say are probable first team players (Balotelli, El Shawharay, De Sciglio, Astori, Marchisio and Candreva could be the spine of a young team). At the moment I would say that De Rossi probably isnt a starter for Italy for next year unless his club form has a massive turnaround. And the bench could be very young with the likes of Ogbonna, Veratti and Lorenzo Insigne.

[geysir]

Bartra looked good for Spain in the Euro u21's. He was only used by Barca because of centre half shortages.Difficult to tell if he will make the grade for the seniors but hardly likely in time for the WC next year.
Meanwhile Spain are cleaning up every underage tournament.
The WC u20's are into the knockout stage, Spain v Mexico on tuesday is one of the standout ties and the winners of that meet Nigeria or Uruguay in the qf's

[Stuttgart88]

I think the point he was trying to make is that perhaps the Spanish team is a bit stale in terms of there are maybe quite a few positions for them where the players have been the same for 4-5 years and now a few of those players are on the downward curve of their careerNo, that's the point I was trying to make :)

I think even the best teams need an injection of new blood (no pun intended in context of Spanish doping controversies). Wasn't there talk of Xavi having to be talked out of leaving the Spanish camp early in this tournament?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, exactly. Edmundo makes the point in much more detail but the word 'aging' implies a need for fresh blood...

Let's be honest, we go on about this almost as much for some team in green that we know!

[Closed Account 2]

Barta was used and didn't look great at all against CL opposition, to the point where Barca seemed to prefer Adriano (usually a full back or midfielder) in the center instead of him. I wouldn't put too much creedence in Euro u21 competitions, some teams don't send the best U21 players, Spain edged out Germany 1-0 but no Dortmund or Bayern players were involved due to the CL (except Can at Bayern but he'd played less than 300 mins for Bayern all season). That's Contento, Kroos, Muller, Goetze, Gundogan and Leitner - all but the latter would have walked into the starting eleven of the U21 squad. As well as that Low pulled rank and insisted that some U21 players joined the full squad for Germany's US tour, ter Stegen, Schurrle and Draxler all would have made the squad and would have been near enough the first team. Italy also took some U21 players to the Confed Cup, Italy took players like De Sciglio, Balotelli and Saharawhi to the confederations cup, all of them could have been at the Euro 21 cup. Whereas Spain didn't take any U21 players to the confederations cup (I think Azpulicueta was about 4 months too old to play in the U21s this summer).

Some teams just dont take the underage tournaments that seriously, there isnt too much prestiege in underage tournaments and some federations tend to bump up younger players to the full squad. I'm not sure you can infer too much from winning the regional underage tournaments, Spain have won two Euro U21s in a row, Holland did the same in the mid-late 2000s, nobody talked of a dynasty then.

I'm not sure they quite "clean up every underage cup", they look reasonable in this years U20 World Cup but its still early days - in any case they didnt even make the semis in the previous 3 editions (which were won by Brazil, Ghana and Argentina). Remind me how they did at last summer's global underage tournament, Morocco Honduras and Japan wasnt it?

[geysir]

Barta was used and didn't look great at all against CL opposition, to the point where Barca seemed to prefer Adriano (usually a full back or midfielder) in the center instead of him. I wouldn't put too much creedence in Euro u21 competitions, some teams don't send the best U21 players, Spain edged out Germany 1-0 but no Dortmund or Bayern players were involved due to the CL (except Can at Bayern but he'd played less than 300 mins for Bayern all season). That's Contento, Kroos, Muller, Goetze, Gundogan and Leitner - all but the latter would have walked into the starting eleven of the U21 squad. As well as that Low pulled rank and insisted that some U21 players joined the full squad for Germany's US tour, ter Stegen, Schurrle and Draxler all would have made the squad and would have been near enough the first team. Italy also took some U21 players to the Confed Cup, Italy took players like De Sciglio, Balotelli and Saharawhi to the confederations cup, all of them could have been at the Euro 21 cup. Whereas Spain didn't take any U21 players to the confederations cup (I think Azpulicueta was about 4 months too old to play in the U21s this summer).

Some teams just dont take the underage tournaments that seriously, there isnt too much prestiege in underage tournaments and some federations tend to bump up younger players to the full squad. I'm not sure you can infer too much from winning the regional underage tournaments, Spain have won two Euro U21s in a row, Holland did the same in the mid-late 2000s, nobody talked of a dynasty then.

I'm not sure they quite "clean up every underage cup", they look reasonable in this years U20 World Cup but its still early days - in any case they didnt even make the semis in the previous 3 editions (which were won by Brazil, Ghana and Argentina). Remind me how they did at last summer's global underage tournament, Morocco Honduras and Japan wasnt it?
The point is Spain can send a squad to win the euro u21, at the same time send a senior squad to Brazil and send a squad to the WC u20's.

'Clean up' refers to recent run of Euro championship victories at u19 and u21 level.
These competitions are no walk in the park, never mind win it in the manner Spain do. Germany found this out, with their golden generation available and playing, failed to even qualify for the u21 2011 euro finals.
The evidence suggests that there is serious and successful effort being given to the development of underage talent in Spain.
The Netherlands are another country who take this underage competition stuff serious and 'pound for pound' (along with Portugal), have impressive returns compared to larger populated countries with big money leagues. So yes, one can dismiss the successful efforts to develop underage talent in the way Spain do, as having doubtful future effect on the senior stage, but I'm not one of them.


"Spain edged out Germany 1-0"
One could interpret a 1-0 stat as the losing team being edged out, indicating a close encounter, a slight edge.
If you watched the game you might well have written that Spain were thoroughly deserving winners, Germany were outplayed and fortunate to keep the score down with a resolute rearguard action (with a few forays).
If you did watch the game and still stick with "Spain edged out Germany" then there's nothing more that can be said in conversation. :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I wouldn't dismiss Spain's underage achievements, but the real battle is learning how to integrate these players in the senior set-up if they are even up for it. Germany have very successfully integrated their golden generation but perhaps that was out of desperation. The situation isn't half as desperate for Spain - in fact it's the opposite - and it's the brilliance of their current squad that will impede their ability to bring through the next generation. The question mark is over whether the Spanish FA is willing to allow the next generation to come through as it will mean compromising the cash cow that is their overseas friendlies.