Europa League

[legendz]

I know this is an old chestnut but following last night's all champions league 3rd placed team final, I can't let it pass.

Where is the benefit for teams of europa league level to have champions league teams being parachuted in? I mean, last night's final should have between teams of a decent level who weren't capable of champions league football this season but having the chance to win a European competition at their level.

[Stuttgart88]

Personally I hate it. The reason for 3rd placed teams being allowed in is so UEFA can keep the group stages of the CL interesting even if 2 teams take charge of a group. All about maximising TV appeal and hence revenue.

I think it must be galling for a team in Europa League from the start to see a big team dropped into it as a consolation prize.

[Closed Account 2]

Ironically the semi's were all CL-rejects as well. Basel and Fenerbahce both went out in the CL play-off round (to Cluj and Spartak Moscow). Spurs, Lazio, Newcastle and Rubin in the quarters were the last Europa-only teams.

[BonnieShels]

I know this is an old chestnut but following last night's all champions league 3rd placed team final, I can't let it pass.

Where is the benefit for teams of europa league level to have champions league teams being parachuted in? I mean, last night's final should have between teams of a decent level who weren't capable of champions league football this season but having the chance to win a European competition at their level.

That's very funny. I was only thinking of this this morning.

It's amazing where your mind goes when you have no phone on the way to work.

I think it is grossly unfair. But alas... It's UEFA.

[DeLorean]

I presume it's motivated by money and little else. It must be a bit galling for the likes of Newcastle, who had done so well in getting through game after game on the awkward Thursday nights, to see the likes of Chelsea dropped in just when it starts getting interesting. There's too many games in it anyway. I agreed with Stutts and Peadar in the thread about Wigan being better off winning the FA Cup and being relegated than vice versa but the Europa League is one competition why I can understand teams not giving it their all. Travelling across Europe on Thursday nights is bound to take it's toll. Newcastle could easily have been relegated as a result and it may been justified if they had an actual chance of winning the competition but with Chelsea, Benfica, etc being dropped in for the latter stages, it never looked likely really. I'd imagine Spurs could easily have that 4th spot cemented now as well, if not 3rd, only for their commitment to the competition but at least they probably had more of a realistic chance of winning it.

[legendz]

Ironically the semi's were all CL-rejects as well. Basel and Fenerbahce both went out in the CL play-off round (to Cluj and Spartak Moscow). Spurs, Lazio, Newcastle and Rubin in the quarters were the last Europa-only teams.

I don't necessarily mind teams dropping in before or to the group stage. Once the group stage of a competition starts however, that should be the end of any teams dropping in.

I can't see it changing though if this survey by the European Clubs Association (ECA), 207 of the top clubs in Europe, is anything to go by. According to this link: http://www.itv.com/sport/football/article/2013-02-05/clubs-call-for-europa-league-winners-to-be-given-champions-league-spot/


75% expressed "satisfaction" or "extreme satisfaction" with the current structure and format of UEFA's club competitions
92% believe the Champions League and the Europa League should continue to exist in parallel
61% would welcome offering the Europa League winner and/or finalists qualifying directly for the Champions League group stage the following season.


I'd agree with the Europa League winner entering the Champions League. It'll be a positive step to give the competition added status and proper reward for the amount of games being played to win it. I don't think they there could be a complaint about the round of 32. It'd be fair enough for the Europa League to have an extra hurdle of a knock-out round before a team would earn CL qualification. While the Europa League is big enough already, I'd love to see it expanded from 48 to 64 with the top 2 from 16 groups of 4 entering the Round of 32 stage, and no CL 3rd placed sides parachuting in.

The national champions of all leagues should have the safety net of at least a europa league place. Shamrock Rovers two years ago had to get to qualifying round 3 before earning the EL play-off safety net. I think teams knocked out in CL qualifying round 2 should drop into EL qualifier round 3 stage. It'd guarantee all champions of the lower nations at least 4 european games. Rant over.

[legendz]

http://www.itv.com/sport/football/article/2013-05-23/champions-league-incentive-for-europa-league-winners/

UEFA seem on the verge of announcing a Champions League spot for the Europa League winner. I think it's a great idea and should boost the competition.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, it means you could come as low as 10th and then win the Champions Lge. the following season.

Modern 'football' stinks.

[BonnieShels]

I think it is a valid prize. My only issue is the fact that 3rd place teams in the Champions League group stages still get into the Europa League. That sucks.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Like this year.
:(

[DeLorean]

I think it is a valid prize. My only issue is the fact that 3rd place teams in the Champions League group stages still get into the Europa League. That sucks.

Yeah, I'd go as far as saying this development is a bad thing without the Champions League teams being taken out of the equation as well.

[BonnieShels]

Yeah, I'd go as far as saying this development is a bad thing without the Champions League teams being taken out of the equation as well.

It would give a reasonable chance to those teams from the middling leagues of Europe a chance for a team to get into the CL. Now it's just a parachute for a big 'un slipping up.

[legendz]

I think it is a valid prize. My only issue is the fact that 3rd place teams in the Champions League group stages still get into the Europa League. That sucks.
That's my only issue with is as well. I can't see it changing though. A recent survey of ECA clubs found the majority while wanting a CL spot for the EL winner, they were happy with the current structures.

I've read articles in recent weeks from two managers across the water. Wenger says his club have raised the point with UEFA that is it not fair that 3rd placed CL teams drop into a competition they didn't enter at the beginning or group stage. Villas-Boas has also said he's raised the same point in meeting with UEFA.

UEFA's initial thinking behind CL teams dropping in was to boost the profile of the competition. A CL place back then would have been more appropriate. Now that CL teams are dropping in it's a hard one for them to row back on. Platini isn't supposed to be pleased with the effort of French and Italian clubs towards the EL. It'll be interesting to see how the CL spot shakes up the EL. If certain considered to be major clubs are missing out on a EL trophy and a path to the CL, they might become more vociferous about the unfairness of CL teams dropping in.

[legendz]

It'll be hard to UEFA cutting out 3rd place CL teams dropping into the EL any time soon though it's unfair. It stems from the first season they had 8 groups of 4. This was followed by a second group stage of 4 groups of 4. The consolation for the 8 third placed teams not making the second group stage was the UEFA Cup. It was fair enough in some respects under that format.


When the second group stage turning people off the tournament with too many games and a second lull towards the end of the second group stage, when some teams were already through, UEFA cut out the second group stage and teams have since gone straight into a round of 16. Third place teams dropping into the EL has survived from then.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the 3rd place rule is there to maximise tv money by keeping the group stages interesting and free of dead rubbers at the end of the group stages.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Pretty much. And even then if they could find a way of having a full-scale European League with the G16 or whatever I'm sure they would.

[Stuttgart88]

I think a European elite league would spell the end of UEFA's control of European football. UEFA needs the current configuration of football to retain its position. An elite top-16 league would be controlled by the clubs, shoving UEFA aside and jeopardising the link between elite professional football and international football. UEFA could become an irrelevance.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe, but no bad thing as UEFA are a bunch of cocks and most of these 'elite' clubs are even worse.

[BonnieShels]

I think a European elite league would spell the end of UEFA's control of European football. UEFA needs the current configuration of football to retain its position. An elite top-16 league would be controlled by the clubs, shoving UEFA aside and jeopardising the link between elite professional football and international football. UEFA could become an irrelevance.

I think it'll be the G16 that'll become tghe irrelevance.

Sure they'll have audiences in Asia and Ireland but at the end of the day I can see UEFA cracking down HARD if they have to. Cocks or not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Reckon that'll depend on the size of the back-handers on offer...

[Stuttgart88]

I think it'll be the G16 that'll become tghe irrelevance.
It's already been disbanded. I think they struck a deal with UEFA wrt player release for internationals and a change in the international calendar, and has been replaced by the European Club Association, with K-H Riuminigge as President. They have flexed their muscle threatening another breakaway when the current agreement with UEFA about the shape of European football ends in 2014. I think they used corruption at FIFA and lack of initiative by UEFA in trying to effect change as the excuse to make their point. Something like that anyway, I can't really remember.

Clearly the big clubs would love to have more control and they would love to try and further subordinate international football. It remains to be seen whether the EU would allow the necessary ingredients for a breakaway league, such as collective media rights selling etc. I won't repeat it here, but I explained why the EU, via the ECJ, has allowed such cartel-like behaviour to date in the FFP thread.

[BonnieShels]

It's already been disbanded. I think they struck a deal with UEFA wrt player release for internationals and a change in the international calendar, and has been replaced by the European Club Association, with K-H Riuminigge as President. They have flexed their muscle threatening another breakaway when the current agreement with UEFA about the shape of European football ends in 2014. I think they used corruption at FIFA and lack of initiative by UEFA in trying to effect change as the excuse to make their point. Something like that anyway, I can't really remember.

Clearly the big clubs would love to have more control and they would love to try and further subordinate international football. It remains to be seen whether the EU would allow the necessary ingredients for a breakaway league, such as collective media rights selling etc. I won't repeat it here, but I explained why the EU, via the ECJ, has allowed such cartel-like behaviour to date in the FFP thread.

Sorry Stutts, I only referred to the G16 as AB had also and chose for simplicity to continue to use it.
You're right about everything as you wrote it about the changes in the Intl calendar etc.

I would like to see the ECA to continue to flex their muscle and then pull it. Intl football is football for me. Sure I love Shels and I watch league and cup football from around the world but I would trade all of that for Ireland at a World Cup or hearing Amhran na bhFiann at a tournament like last summer. Nothing comes close to that for me.

Football will die when Intl football dies.

[SkStu]

Football will die when Intl football dies.

While I agree with that Bonnie, I think the view of international footie being the be-all and end-all is a pretty uniquely Irish thing. Most fans across the world put club (whether its their own league or their premiership team) football first.

[legendz]

I think a European elite league would spell the end of UEFA's control of European football. UEFA needs the current configuration of football to retain its position. An elite top-16 league would be controlled by the clubs, shoving UEFA aside and jeopardising the link between elite professional football and international football. UEFA could become an irrelevance.

It'd be boring in fairness. Any league will have 3 or 4 at the top. Where will the rest be then? The Champions League at least is built on clubs being at the top or near top in their respective leagues.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Whereas the Chumps Lge. is already dull.

Even 'top' teams like the Arse already have no chance...which makes an even bigger mockery of all those claims of Herr Wenger...

[Stuttgart88]

I disagree. It varies from year to year but I thought the CL was really interesting this year. Arsenal are uncompetitive because their football style is toothless, no more and no less.

Stu, I'm not sure about your statement. I think there is a big draw towards international football in lesser footballing nations or among fans of non-elite teams. There's probably more of a "temporary" element to it though, but every country and every sport has its bandwagon jumpers. Also, I don't think that many Irish think of international football as the be-all and end-all. I think most Irish think the EPL is.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It was interesting because two German teams reached the Final. But the general content or 'product' of modern top-flight football is anodyne in the extreme...

[geysir]

The Toto league (whatever it was called) was a conceptually doomed experiment. The Europa league is modestly moving from strength to strength as a bona fide B competition for clubs in leagues outside the mainstream.
There is some detraction when the likes of a club the size of Chelsea end up with the trophy but at least this year's final was competitive and the best in a while.

[Stuttgart88]

It was interesting because two German teams reached the Final. But the general content or 'product' of modern top-flight football is anodyne in the extreme...
No, the Madrid / City / Dortmund / Ajax group was interesting as were a few other groups and many of the knockout ties were interesting too. Barcelona v Milan was a great tie, all the QFs were good ties, the semis were both fascinating and the final was enthralling. I know some found it dull but pretty much any pundit or hack that I rate thought it was a great final. I honestly don't know how you could find this year's tournament dull. Maybe because there were no 400 year old territorial or religious disputes to be played out on a football pitch?

[Dermotron]

I think the 3rd place rule is there to maximise tv money by keeping the group stages interesting and free of dead rubbers at the end of the group stages.

This.

No way will UEFA even consider dropping the 3rd place slot as an entry into the Europa League. Keeps rounds 5 and 6 a bit more interesting in some groups even though plenty are decided after 3 games given the gulf in class in some groups.



Could only see a structural change in Europa being some what the answer since the above won't ever change. Would bringing in a format similar to the old 2nd phase of the CL be worth a trial? 8 CL dropouts + 16 Europa group winners/runners-up followed by 8 groups of 3 with winners in a quarter final? Or just too much of a structural change to Europa League? Or 8 CL + 24 group winners/runners-up with 8 groups of 4 then a last 16 (probably overkill and would dilute the comp more)

The smaller clubs might love extra matches but the bigger clubs would probably cry foul over too many extra games.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I honestly don't know how you could find this year's tournament dull. Maybe because there were no 400 year old territorial or religious disputes to be played out on a football pitch?

What's the relevance of that to anything? Celtic had a great result v.Barca and in Moscow, but we're not part of the elite and probably never will be. As opposed to the 5-6 clubs who can and who usually win the CL and probably will dominate it for the foreseeable future.
For reasons of balance and perspective would prefer an 'alternative' winner eg. Dortmund but they could be lucky to even get to another Final in the next decade.

Anyway, the general concept is flawed, simply as they have to accommodate so many 'big' teams in the group stages, just for the TV money, most of whom, eg.Arsenal, Man.City have no chance of actually ever winning it.
All part of the general ethos of 'far far too much football' that is a plague in the modern game.

[Stuttgart88]

5-6 teams capable of winning it is more open than pretty much any football / rugby / GAA competition I can think of.

A finalist must play 13 games. I don't think that's too much. Personally I think that the domestic leagues are the ones that are a few games too long, and I think that the Europa league is the one that's too long. I think the CL ebbs and flows but this year's vintage was very good in my opinion.

And you know full well what the other remark was about, as does everyone else who reads this site regularly!

[legendz]

This.

No way will UEFA even consider dropping the 3rd place slot as an entry into the Europa League. Keeps rounds 5 and 6 a bit more interesting in some groups even though plenty are decided after 3 games given the gulf in class in some groups.

When it came in initially, there was two CL group stages. While I don't doubt the financial aspect behind the move. It was more fair initially that teams just missing the second group stage got a few games in the UEFA cup. The top 2 of the first CL stage were guaranteed another 6 games. When the Round of 16 came in to replace the second group stage, I don't think the backing was there then to cut the 3rd placed sides from dropping out. Partly due to the UEFA Cup being structured for 8 teams to come in at the UEFA Cup Round 3.

[ger121]

Couldn't find a EL thread for this year. After tonight's results, if Slovan Bratislava lose their final game away to Napoli, then they will take Rovers title for the worst performance by a side in EL Group Stages. Current Standing P5 W0 D0 L5 F1 A17 P0

Metalist also have no points but GD is only -6 and they've Lokeren at home in the final round so you'd expect them to pick up something.

[geysir]

I suppose a Bohs fan could only dream about the EL group stages :)
But talking about the worst ever, is the worst ever performance in the EL competition by a LOI team, the time Bohs were hammered 5-1 by that 2nd division team from the remote tip of Iceland?

[ger121]

I suppose a Bohs fan could only dream about the EL group stages :)
But talking about the worst ever, is the worst ever performance in the EL competition by a LOI team, the time Bohs were hammered 5-1 by that 2nd division team from the remote tip of Iceland?

I'd say Longford amongst others could give us a run for our money... Was a shocking result though. Only downside of a great trip to a lovely spot.

Sure come back to us when an Icelandic side makes it ;)

[Charlie Darwin]

I suppose a Bohs fan could only dream about the EL group stages :)
But talking about the worst ever, is the worst ever performance in the EL competition by a LOI team, the time Bohs were hammered 5-1 by that 2nd division team from the remote tip of Iceland?
Pats going down 10-0 on aggregate to Zimbru was probably worse.

[geysir]

I'd say Longford amongst others could give us a run for our money... Was a shocking result though. Only downside of a great trip to a lovely spot.

Sure come back to us when an Icelandic side makes it ;)
Thank you, but Charlie has already kindly extended an invitation. An Iceland club will surely break that EL play-off jinx, soon.

[DeLorean]

An awkward draw for Everton but not too bad. The other fixtures should suit them should they go through, some heavy hitters will be out. The all-Spanish and all-Italian ties stand out.


Everton(ENG) v Dynamo Kyiv(UKR)

Dnipro(UKR) v Ajax(NED)

Zenit(RUS) v Torino(ITA)

Wolfsburg(GER) v Internazionale(ITA)

Villarreal (ESP) v Sevilla(ESP)

Napoli(ITA) v Dinamo Moskva(RUS)

Club Brugge(BEL) v Beşiktaş(TUR)

Fiorentina(ITA) v Roma(ITA)

[OwlsFan]

As a friend said to me: "I thought the UK was supposed to have a referendum before exiting Europe?".

Everton's defence now reminds me of Wigan's defence when they were in the Premiership. Hmmm.

[DeLorean]

Are you suggesting there's a common denominator?.... must be Alcaraz :)

[DeLorean]

Q/F's

Dynamo Kiev v Fiorentina
Club Brugge v Dnipro
Sevilla v Zenit
Wolfsburg v Napoli

[OwlsFan]

Q/F's

Dynamo Moscow v Fiorentina
Club Brugge v Dnipro
Sevilla v Zenit
Wolfsburg v Napoli

What happened to Dynamo Kiev :O ?

[Charlie Darwin]

Annexed by Moscow apparently. Move to the Putin thread?

[DeLorean]

Haha how did that happen!

[DeLorean]

Semi Final Draw

Napoli v Dnipro
Sevilla v Fiorentina


Second one should be a great tie.

[DeLorean]

Interesting proposals (http://www.espnfc.com/blog/marcotti-musings/62/post/2424677/europa-league-could-be-better-heres-how-writes-gab-marcotti)

[Stuttgart88]

Agree with all that. You know where you heard the regionalisation proposal first :)

I actually mentioned it to Delaney when I met him with Paul. He liked the idea before finding someone more interesting to talk to. He's on the international committee that discusses these things.

I really believe it could be what brings countries / leagues like ours in from the periphery.

[TheBoss]

I think the Europa League should be played a week after the Champions League, like Week 1,3,5 etc, is Champions League - Week 2,4,6, etc, is Europa League. Also played on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays of that week, instead of 24 games on one night, we would get 8 games on a night and makes it easier to follow.

[Stuttgart88]

Good idea in principle but are there enough free weeks? Would it interfere too much with domestic schedules?