If not now, then when?

[nigel-harps1954]

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2013/05/14/3975831/if-not-now-then-when-why-trapattoni-should-have-called-up-league-?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Excellent article regarding Trappatoni again ignoring the League of Ireland, when this is the time he should be looking at players within the league.

[Lim till i die]

The league is at nowhere near a high enough standard to judge whether a player is up to international level.

Underage success isn't really a barometer for a player either.

Alex O'Reilly
Thomas Heary
Keith Doyle
Richard Dunne
Jason Gavin
Stephen McPhail
Gerard Crossley
Barry Quinn
Richie Partridge
Robbie Keane
Liam George

There's the starting eleven that won the Euro U-18s.....

As for why not now in particular??

Well Trap is under immense pressure for some ludicrous results from a CEO desperate to get him off the wage/court favour with the ole ole brigade.

Bit of risk to bring in 25 LoI games Barry McNamee then?!

[Charlie Darwin]

The league is at nowhere near a high enough standard to judge whether a player is up to international level.

Underage success isn't really a barometer for a player either.

Alex O'Reilly
Thomas Heary
Keith Doyle
Richard Dunne
Jason Gavin
Stephen McPhail
Gerard Crossley
Barry Quinn
Richie Partridge
Robbie Keane
Liam George

There's the starting eleven that won the Euro U-18s.....
21s success would be a better barometer, and Richie Towell has done very well at that level and is obviously miles above LOI standard.


As for why not now in particular??

Well Trap is under immense pressure for some ludicrous results from a CEO desperate to get him off the wage/court favour with the ole ole brigade.

Bit of risk to bring in 25 LoI games Barry McNamee then?!
Agree now isn't the time, but it's only a risk if he plays him. If McNamee or somebody else shows potential, why not give him the same chance Chelsea underage star Conor Clifford got?

[nigel-harps1954]

They don't exactly have to play LTID. It's just when a 28 man squad is named, why persist with players that are clearly not good enough for international level while there are players showing huge potential in the League here.
They have just as much right to be in a 28 man squad, and not play, as does someone like Darren O'Dea, who has proven time and again that he's not good enough. Besides the fact he's playing in a team, arguably, as weak as most League of Ireland Premier Division team on an international standard.

[Jofspring]

I think most people's major gripe is that for example Ronan Finn is not good enough simply because he is playing league of Ireland premier but if a week later he was warming the bench for the likes of Derby County he would probably get a call up. That goes for the underage set up also.

How Seanie Maguire could be continually overlooked for the under 19's last season was a joke. Two weeks after signing for west ham he is added to the squad without even touching a ball for the club. Seanie was playing at a much more physical and competitive level than any of the players playing youths over in Engalnd. Playing against men and playing against youths is a huge difference and an advantage Seanie would have had but it seemed not to matter at all.

There is a lot more cases than that also. Players seem to be picked by where they are playing rather than their actual quality.

[Spudulika]

The standard of players in the LOI this year and last has dropped since 2011 and before, though from what I've seen Richie Towell should at least get a chance in a squad. But if Trap called up someone, the meeja would pillory him, especially if the player didn't play or flopped. Plus they're going to go after him no matter what. I do believe that he should be able to put in 5 players for each squad and have the FAI put their fingers up to the meeja and say - we're backing him to do it for the benefit of national football and the LOI. Then again, I should be able to date Anna Semenovich but first I'd be killed by my missus and secondly I'd be killed by her boyfriend.

[Jofspring]

Great to see Barry McNamee in the Under 21 Squad for the Denmark game. Delighted for Dave O'Leary to be involved in the training also.

There surely is room for a few LOI players to even be called up to the training squads before friendlies. In Rugby you often see players being called up to the International setup for training squads. They will most likely not make match day squads but get to train with the first teamers and it benefits them in the long run. Having a few LOI players in the squads would reflect well on the league also.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

I expect us to have a player in the squad the next time we host a game

[Spudulika]

It's great to see the extra players called into the 21 squad, plus players from our diaspora (as it's deserved). I wonder that rather than complaining about missing out on the full side that the LOI gets off it's backside and does something constructive (maybe with the Giggle Bros from the players union) and organise LOI XI's playing over leagues. The Russian version (FNL) played Serie B and 2 other leagues this season with good energy. An LOI XI vs Sweden XI or some such would give LOI players some more exposure.

[marinobohs]

I know it may seem parocial but I believe a LOI player or two should be mandatory in every ROI squad. Building links between the LOI and ROI would be good for both and they (alledgedly) are part of the same organisation

[peadar1987]

I think having an LOI XI playing in the green jersey, against a weaker full national side (one of the Baltic states would be ideal, apparently there are 25,000 Lithuanians in Ireland, for example), or at least a representative XI, an England or Scotland "B" side, should be a regular fixture. The FAI could make it a cheap ticket game like the FAI cup final. They'd make money off it while giving the league exposure, seems like a win-win.

[gufcfan]

I know it may seem parocial but I believe a LOI player or two should be mandatory in every ROI squad. Building links between the LOI and ROI would be good for both and they (alledgedly) are part of the same organisation
Could never be implemented and even if it was, I think it would be counter-productive.


I think having an LOI XI playing in the green jersey, against a weaker full national side (one of the Baltic states would be ideal, apparently there are 25,000 Lithuanians in Ireland, for example), or at least a representative XI, an England or Scotland "B" side, should be a regular fixture. The FAI could make it a cheap ticket game like the FAI cup final. They'd make money off it while giving the league exposure, seems like a win-win.
That would be a great idea, rather than the playing Man Utd nonsense.

Cost would be an issue though. Not sure if it would make money exactly. I would sooner go to that than an Ireland game. Was at the Argentina friendly, but was just there for a nose around the stadium tbh. Don't feel a great attachment to our national side. I usually watch the matches but I wouldn't be that bothered going to see it. Would love to see a LOI XI take on somebody other a barstooler magnet.

You have the problem then of when you have the game, so that all players from all teams are available for selection.

[Spudulika]

Peadar, the Baltic sides would maybe be a bit too tough, a Baltic League side maybe, and if the LOI and FAI got it right, they'd have a fair amount of business support. The difficulty they will face is the clubs (as gufcfan hinted at), though if the dates get set for a 4 year period, it makes sense. Would love to see 2 fixtures a year and it just takes organisation, and it can't be 1 off and little sops to the club.

[DannyInvincible]

I know it may seem parocial but I believe a LOI player or two should be mandatory in every ROI squad. Building links between the LOI and ROI would be good for both and they (alledgedly) are part of the same organisation

It's a nice sentiment, but not really the answer to dealing with the root of the problem of the league's detachment from the international set-up. It's more enforcing a false or illusory link than building a genuine one. Players ought to be selected if deserving of a place. A mandatory quota would strike me as tokenistic whilst also leaving those LOI players called up open to accusations of selection for reasons other than merit. Would this be beneficial for the league or result in the wider Irish public giving the league more serious consideration? Chances are the two mandatory players mightn't be up to the "required standard" on occasion, perhaps even regularly; this would just provoke resentment and further questions.

As an aside, in what way would it benefit the international side exactly?

[Straightstory]

A very good article. Makes me long even more for the end of the Trappatoni regime. Maybe not the worst manager ever, but probably the most unpopular.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think most people's major gripe is that for example Ronan Finn is not good enough simply because he is playing league of Ireland premier but if a week later he was warming the bench for the likes of Derby County he would probably get a call up. That goes for the underage set up also.

How Seanie Maguire could be continually overlooked for the under 19's last season was a joke. Two weeks after signing for west ham he is added to the squad without even touching a ball for the club. Seanie was playing at a much more physical and competitive level than any of the players playing youths over in Engalnd. Playing against men and playing against youths is a huge difference and an advantage Seanie would have had but it seemed not to matter at all.

There is a lot more cases than that also. Players seem to be picked by where they are playing rather than their actual quality.

Maybe it's more the case at underage, but that perception in terms of the senior squad is way off. Made this point over in the international forum but there's countless examples of players who are cross-channel but nowhere near the squad (Enda Stevens, Stephen McLaughlin, Daniel Kearns, Dave Mooney etc).

Don't agree much with article at all. I also think it's totally wrong to suggest LOI players should be soft-balled into the squad just because. Truthfully the track record ain't great (Crowe, Byrne, Gamble) and for every McClean or Coleman there's a couple of Roy O'Donovan's floating about. For me cross-channel ball is rightly a proving ground.

[Dodge]

I
How Seanie Maguire could be continually overlooked for the under 19's last season was a joke. Two weeks after signing for west ham he is added to the squad without even touching a ball for the club. Seanie was playing at a much more physical and competitive level than any of the players playing youths over in Engalnd. Playing against men and playing against youths is a huge difference and an advantage Seanie would have had but it seemed not to matter at all.


Maguire was in the under 19 squad whilst with Waterford (EG (1) (http://www.fai.ie/international/under-19/102728-u19s-draw-in-latvia.html)) & has been part of the under 18 panel for 2 years. Ryan Coombes was with Pats all last season and in some of the squads Maguire wasn't. You can't claim anti-LOI bias when there are LOI players in the squad. Sometimes there are better players in his position (and maybe they get injured).

This nonsense happens every few years. None of the players above are close to international standard. Forrester can't start for the Ireland u21s. Horgan is absolutely woeful and wouldn't get a game with the top 5 LOI sides, never mind the international side.

Ian Bermingham is probably closest to being in the Irish squad. Not because he's that good a player, but simply because he's the best left back in the countrya nd the international squad has a problem there.

Trapatoni has no interest in the league, and that's a shame. But even if he was watching games every week there'd be little or no change in the international squad. Oh and players do improve immensely when they move to England as they're training better and doing everything in a professional manner.

[Brusher]

Bloody hell, sometimes I wonder why people actually support LoI ! Surely, a large part of supporting a club no matter where in the world that club is, is the dream of that club reaching for the stars, very often unattainable in reality. Yet here we are knocking the quality within this League,and I as a Bohs fan have certainly seen a sharp decrease in quality in Dalymount. Regarding the inclusion of LoI players in a national squad, I probably naively thought that International competition was down to representation of ones Country/Nation, and in that regard surely to F..K there should be room for a player or more who actually lives on the Island of Ireland to represent his country REGARDLESS WHETHER THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS IN THE UK. I also don't want a lecture on how through emigration, how big a diaspora we have throughout the world, blab, blah !!

[DannyInvincible]

A very good article. Makes me long even more for the end of the Trappatoni regime.

Why exactly? Would you be expecting any replacement to give the league greater attention than the scant level of consideration Trap gives it? Devoting any bit of time and attention to the league has been a very rare trait amongst our contemporary international managers. What was the largest number of League of Ireland players Brian Kerr ever had in one of his squads? And he's a man with League of Ireland roots!

[DannyInvincible]

Yet here we are knocking the quality within this League,and I as a Bohs fan have certainly seen a sharp decrease in quality in Dalymount.

Aren't you just knocking the quality there yourself too?


Regarding the inclusion of LoI players in a national squad, I probably naively thought that International competition was down to representation of ones Country/Nation, and in that regard surely to F..K there should be room for a player or more who actually lives on the Island of Ireland to represent his country REGARDLESS WHETHER THERE ARE BETTER PLAYERS IN THE UK. I also don't want a lecture on how through emigration, how big a diaspora we have throughout the world, blab, blah !!

You should probably refrain from posting silly comments like the above then. Which of our international players aren't representing their country/nation? You don't have to live on the island of Ireland to be an Irish national.

[hoops1]

What ever about LOI players being good enough or not good enough to be included in the International Squads, there is zero attempt to bring them up to standard. Why cant 4 or 5 of the most promising young LOI players not even be allowed train with the senior squads for even the friendly matches.
Availing of top coaching, training and tactical knowledge. It wouldnt be that costly and if any of these players did make it to England they would have some sort of experience behind them.

[peadar1987]

Peadar, the Baltic sides would maybe be a bit too tough, a Baltic League side maybe, and if the LOI and FAI got it right, they'd have a fair amount of business support. The difficulty they will face is the clubs (as gufcfan hinted at), though if the dates get set for a 4 year period, it makes sense. Would love to see 2 fixtures a year and it just takes organisation, and it can't be 1 off and little sops to the club.

I suppose getting absolutely spanked wouldn't be great for the image of the LOI (I bow to your superior knowledge of Eastern European football), but ideally you'd want a team who were big enough to draw a crowd, as opposed to getting in San Marino, Liechtenstein or Andorra. It would be a balancing act I suppose. I was originally thinking Poland for maximum crowd-pulling potential, but they would wipe the floor with an LOI team.

I'd have no problem with a league select in principle, but it would be difficult to get the players released from their clubs for it, and I think the prestige of some sort of representative national side would be better at getting people through the turnstiles.

[pineapple stu]

What ever about LOI players being good enough or not good enough to be included in the International Squads, there is zero attempt to bring them up to standard. Why cant 4 or 5 of the most promising young LOI players not even be allowed train with the senior squads for even the friendly matches.
Availing of top coaching, training and tactical knowledge. It wouldnt be that costly and if any of these players did make it to England they would have some sort of experience behind them.
You can't go hinder the national team by making them train with some sub-standard players just in case it suddenly made the league take off or something. If they're good enough, they'll progress. Unfortunately, progression does tend to mean going to England.

I honestly don't see what people think calling two players up to a friendly twice or three times a year is going to achieve.

[Spudulika]

I suppose getting absolutely spanked wouldn't be great for the image of the LOI (I bow to your superior knowledge of Eastern European football), but ideally you'd want a team who were big enough to draw a crowd, as opposed to getting in San Marino, Liechtenstein or Andorra. It would be a balancing act I suppose. I was originally thinking Poland for maximum crowd-pulling potential, but they would wipe the floor with an LOI team.

I'd have no problem with a league select in principle, but it would be difficult to get the players released from their clubs for it, and I think the prestige of some sort of representative national side would be better at getting people through the turnstiles.

Peadar you have the right idea (how it'll make money as well as sense) and in Poland you're right, and Lithuania and Latvia, though it'd need to be League XI's.
http://www.epfl-europeanleagues.com/FNL_SerieB_friendly_match.htm

I wanted to get down to this but had just come back to the country and my colleague went. Astrakhan's a hole at the best of times and playing it there was purely down to Gazprom's backing of it, but if it was in Moscow (at Streltsov for example) it'd have brought in 5-8,000 easy and made money on it's own. It was 2nd tier Russia vs 2nd tier Italy and it really did drum up interest and the local lads were close to the pace of a very intense Italian team.

Now let's say that Ireland play the Virsliga (Latvia) XI in May here and in September go over there and play them. It would pay for itself, give players a chance to shine and remember that you'd have our boys going up against half a dozen (a least) senior internationals and would be a marker. The next year it can switch to Lithuania, the year after Poland and so on. This is something for LOI players to use as a showcase and if the FAI/LOI compensated clubs for players going on duty, as well as throw a few quid at the players themselves, it would be great. Marketed and organised well with a set plan for 5 years means it can grow. Not just let players off to be slaughtered by major club sides.

[nigel-harps1954]

if the FAI/LOI compensated clubs for players going on duty, as well as throw a few quid at the players themselves, it would be great. Marketed and organised well with a set plan for 5 years means it can grow.

I was paying close attention and thinking it could work until I got this far....

[peadar1987]

Peadar you have the right idea (how it'll make money as well as sense) and in Poland you're right, and Lithuania and Latvia, though it'd need to be League XI's.
http://www.epfl-europeanleagues.com/FNL_SerieB_friendly_match.htm

I wanted to get down to this but had just come back to the country and my colleague went. Astrakhan's a hole at the best of times and playing it there was purely down to Gazprom's backing of it, but if it was in Moscow (at Streltsov for example) it'd have brought in 5-8,000 easy and made money on it's own. It was 2nd tier Russia vs 2nd tier Italy and it really did drum up interest and the local lads were close to the pace of a very intense Italian team.

Now let's say that Ireland play the Virsliga (Latvia) XI in May here and in September go over there and play them. It would pay for itself, give players a chance to shine and remember that you'd have our boys going up against half a dozen (a least) senior internationals and would be a marker. The next year it can switch to Lithuania, the year after Poland and so on. This is something for LOI players to use as a showcase and if the FAI/LOI compensated clubs for players going on duty, as well as throw a few quid at the players themselves, it would be great. Marketed and organised well with a set plan for 5 years means it can grow. Not just let players off to be slaughtered by major club sides.

Exactly. To be honest, putting the players in an Ireland jersey would just be a nice thing for the lads selected, and a gimmick to draw in the Olé Olé brigade. But there's nothing wrong with a gimmick if it gets money and publicity for the LOI. And it would give the LOI players a chance to work with the coaching staff of the national side, who should in theory be among the best in the country.

Might email the FAI about it actually, it couldn't hurt, even if it probably won't lead to anything.

[Spudulika]

I was paying close attention and thinking it could work until I got this far....

Nigel, all I'm thinking is - smart orse! And belated congrats on the wee one!

Peadar, you're right about getting the Ole Ole Brigade in and I know that the LOI/FAI/PFAI will be picking up on this thread (they seem to lurk at all corners) so if an email lands, they'd be mad not to explore it. It would bring them such kudos and it removes any opportunity for LOI fans to whinge about being neglected. If Tallaght or wherever wasn't full for such matches, then it shows the depth of support for the league. It would be a great way to market players further afield.

[DannyInvincible]

What ever about LOI players being good enough or not good enough to be included in the International Squads, there is zero attempt to bring them up to standard.

Exactly. Players (such as Green/"some English johnny-come-lately") who make our squad and appear to be getting a bit of a raw deal from the public/press aren't to blame for the lack of opportunities accorded to League of Ireland players at international level. Such players are selected on merit rather than at the expense of home-based players, and if the League of Ireland was of a high enough standard, we'd see players from the league feature internationally more regularly. We don't because they're not up to it. So, who is to blame? Who is shirking their duties and obligations? The blame for the disconnect and lack of opportunity lies not even with the international manager - his job is to win by picking the best team he feels is available to him - but squarely with the FAI, who, in spite of their patronage in name, have shamefully neglected the league's development. Our international team's traditional "professional" link is now with Britain and British clubs due to the lack of a proper development/pyramid structure in Ireland. The answer lies not in offering sentimental token gestures either, but in overhauling the development infrastructure of the game in Ireland.

[hoops1]

You can't go hinder the national team by making them train with some sub-standard players just in case it suddenly made the league take off or something. If they're good enough, they'll progress. Unfortunately, progression does tend to mean going to England.

I honestly don't see what people think calling two players up to a friendly twice or three times a year is going to achieve.

Have you watched the Irish team over the last few years? Calling up our most promising players to experience the International set up is not going to hinder them one bit. The players in the squad plus Trapp are doing a good enough job hindering themselves.

The player pool in this country is too small to be disgarding its National League. The players in the International team are not that good and the players in the top LOI clubs are not that bad.

This country is amazingly narrow minded when it comes to working together.
The schoolboy clubs dont help the national league teams, the national league teams dont help the schoolboy clubs and in turn cant help the International team. The International team is of value to nobody but itself.

We have 3 strands of the game that only have their own interests at heart.

What you get is a mish mash of rubbish.
If Trap or any of our International managers were serious about Irish football, they would be sorting out all levels.
Letting our most promising young players see how its done at the supposed top level would not solve the leagues problems its only a small thing but at least it would be something.
But we must keep them away from the Interantional team because if they did get access to the camp we might end up getting spanked in all our games in a tournament or walloped by one of the big guns in one of our qualifiers.

If boring people to death and scrapping qualification every now and then is the height of ambition you wont be dissapointed.

People need to be very clear on one thing. Making the national league a success is the key to improving the International team. Until we come around to this way of thinking we will never improve.
That and smashing the strangle hold the DDSL and its clubs have over football in this country a close second

[osarusan]

So, who is to blame? Who is shirking their duties and obligations? The blame for the disconnect and lack of opportunity lies not even with the international manager - his job is to win by picking the best team he feels is available to him - but squarely with the FAI, who, in spite of their patronage in name, have shamefully neglected the league's development. Our international team's traditional "professional" link is now with Britain and British clubs due to the lack of a proper development/pyramid structure in Ireland. The answer lies not in offering sentimental token gestures either, but in overhauling the development infrastructure of the game in Ireland.

All true, but this is hardly news to people on this forum.

[BonnieShels]

Have you watched the Irish team over the last few years? Calling up our most promising players to experience the International set up is not going to hinder them one bit. The players in the squad plus Trapp are doing a good enough job hindering themselves.

The player pool in this country is too small to be disgarding its National League. The players in the International team are not that good and the players in the top LOI clubs are not that bad.

This country is amazingly narrow minded when it comes to working together.
The schoolboy clubs dont help the national league teams, the national league teams dont help the schoolboy clubs and in turn cant help the International team. The International team is of value to nobody but itself.

We have 3 strands of the game that only have their own interests at heart.

What you get is a mish mash of rubbish.
If Trap or any of our International managers were serious about Irish football, they would be sorting out all levels.
Letting our most promising young players see how its done at the supposed top level would not solve the leagues problems its only a small thing but at least it would be something.
But we must keep them away from the Interantional team because if they did get access to the camp we might end up getting spanked in all our games in a tournament or walloped by one of the big guns in one of our qualifiers.

If boring people to death and scrapping qualification every now and then is the height of ambition you wont be dissapointed.

People need to be very clear on one thing. Making the national league a success is the key to improving the International team. Until we come around to this way of thinking we will never improve.
That and smashing the strangle hold the DDSL and its clubs have over football in this country a close second

Great post.

[Straightstory]

Yeah - super post. Strange idea that working with 'inferior' players somehow makes training less effective. (Although, if there's any truth in it, it may be another reason not to call up Paul Green...)

[hoops1]

Yeah - super post. Strange idea that working with 'inferior' players somehow makes training less effective. (Although, if there's any truth in it, it may be another reason not to call up Paul Green...)

Lets carry on doing what we are doing. Sure thats working brilliantly.
You are missing the point. Unless there is co-operation and direction given across all strands. Drawing 0-0 with Sweden is always going to be seen as a good result.
Until the schoolboy and National league issues are rectified. The Internaitonal team are going to have to help

[peadar1987]

Have you watched the Irish team over the last few years? Calling up our most promising players to experience the International set up is not going to hinder them one bit. The players in the squad plus Trapp are doing a good enough job hindering themselves.

The player pool in this country is too small to be disgarding its National League. The players in the International team are not that good and the players in the top LOI clubs are not that bad.

This country is amazingly narrow minded when it comes to working together.
The schoolboy clubs dont help the national league teams, the national league teams dont help the schoolboy clubs and in turn cant help the International team. The International team is of value to nobody but itself.

We have 3 strands of the game that only have their own interests at heart.

What you get is a mish mash of rubbish.
If Trap or any of our International managers were serious about Irish football, they would be sorting out all levels.
Letting our most promising young players see how its done at the supposed top level would not solve the leagues problems its only a small thing but at least it would be something.
But we must keep them away from the Interantional team because if they did get access to the camp we might end up getting spanked in all our games in a tournament or walloped by one of the big guns in one of our qualifiers.

If boring people to death and scrapping qualification every now and then is the height of ambition you wont be dissapointed.

People need to be very clear on one thing. Making the national league a success is the key to improving the International team. Until we come around to this way of thinking we will never improve.
That and smashing the strangle hold the DDSL and its clubs have over football in this country a close second


I'd agree with pretty much all of your points in here, but don't think that calling up "token" players to the national squad is the way to go about improving the national league.

If an LOI player is good enough, they they definitely should not be overlooked. There have been a few over the years. Someone mentioned Bermingham a while back, and for a short bit, it looked like Conor Powell might be an option. If players who aren't quite good enough are forced into the squad though, I think that's just going to create resentment, and the last thing the LOI needs is any more resentment against it!!

[osarusan]

If an LOI player is good enough, they they definitely should not be overlooked. There have been a few over the years.

The problem is that there isn't really any way to know if they're good enough or not by their performances in the LOI. We can all think of a few players who were top class in the LOI but who failed (relatively or totally) at lower levels in England.

The standard of player they play against in LOI just isn't good enough for the senior team management to make informed decisions about their international potential.

[pineapple stu]

Have you watched the Irish team over the last few years? Calling up our most promising players to experience the International set up is not going to hinder them one bit. The players in the squad plus Trapp are doing a good enough job hindering themselves.
A lot of what you have in that post is spot on.

None of it is going to be fixed by a couple of token call-ups though.

And I'd argue it's more important to focus on the coaches rather than the players. Improve a player, and you improve one player. Improve a coach, and you improve lots of players.