Perception And Anti-Social Behavior in the LOIe

[NeverFeltBetter]

How big a problem, when it comes to promoting the league and getting people in the gate, is anti-social behavior? We've seen, sadly, plenty of such incident already this season, not least the carry-on last night in Sligo. This would include pitch invasions, drunken fans in stands (and I mean falling down drunk mind, not just a bit tipsy), vehicular damage, aggressive behavior outside of grounds and residential areas near grounds, etc.

We all know this is down to a minority, and in the case of the damage to the Limerick bus coming back from Sligo, probably wasn't even anything to do with football fans at all. But perception is important, and I wonder how negatively all of this reflects on the LOI.

When it comes to reasons why the LOI isn't getting a very large audience, how big of one is this kind of thing? I know one or two people who swear off the league because of what they deem a "violent" or drunken element pervading (one lives in Cabra, and has had more than one bad experience around Bohs/Shams time), but how prevalent is that? Do people notice this as a cause for lack of engagement from some people? Is it on the increase?

And what can be done? Should LOI clubs start banning people from going to games for life? How enforceable is that, really? Is it a Garda issue or a stewarding one? Do other sports in Ireland have similar or worse issues with ASB?

[nigel-harps1954]

It's another excuse for people to complain about the LOI while the English league is all full of niceness and goodness.

[White Horse]

Clubs are afraid to ban fans and enforce banning orders as most struggle for crowds.

Drogheda fans tell me that the hooligans who went on the rampage in Sligo are well known to the club.

The FAI should take action against clubs who renege on their responsibility.

But they won't.

[peadar1987]

You wouldn't catch me dead watching a football match in a pub. I saw on the telly a while back that there was some trouble in a pub down in Cork. Terrible hooligan scumbag element you find associated with pubs, and until they clean up their act, I'll experience alcohol by drinking cans at home!

[dong]

It's another excuse for people to complain about the LOI while the English league is all full of niceness and goodness.

Sorry, but just because the English game has hooligan issues doesn't negate people's entitlement to look for higher standards of behaviour before going to games here.
It's not just an "excuse".

Every time there's an incident, which generally these days involves fans getting onto the pitch at will, there's a certain amount of gleeful comment in the media and on the Internet forums but that's where it ends and nothing changes as far as I can see.

[SkStu]

This stuff happens the world over, it just doesn't get as much attention from media unless it is so large scale as to be unavoidable.

It seems that Irish media enjoys reporting and exaggerating LOI incidents and non-LOI fans enjoy reading and/or talking about it as another stick to beat the league with. Ditto the reasoning for media exaggeration.

Not to say we shouldn't be attempting to eliminate these occurrences.

[dong]

Fans getting n the pitch almost every week doesn't happen the world over.

[SkStu]

Fans getting n the pitch almost every week doesn't happen the world over.

That's nice. I was, however, responding to the OP.


How big a problem, when it comes to promoting the league and getting people in the gate, is anti-social behavior? We've seen, sadly, plenty of such incident already this season, not least the carry-on last night in Sligo. This would include pitch invasions, drunken fans in stands (and I mean falling down drunk mind, not just a bit tipsy), vehicular damage, aggressive behavior outside of grounds and residential areas near grounds, etc.

[nigel-harps1954]

Sorry, but just because the English game has hooligan issues doesn't negate people's entitlement to look for higher standards of behaviour before going to games here.
It's not just an "excuse".


Never said it should be accepted. I agree, these things need to be hit on the head, hard and fast. But the fact is, since it's the LOI, and the only press the League gets is generally bad press, it's another excuse for people to give out about the League.

[adamd164]

Six one news on RTE had a shot of a few Drogs fans running onto the pitch trying to start a fight with Ross Gaynor.

Didn't mention the other matches last night or give a roundup of scores.

[monkey9]

Six one news on RTE had a shot of a few Drogs fans running onto the pitch trying to start a fight with Ross Gaynor.

Didn't mention the other matches last night or give a roundup of scores.

Typical. And i bet the Herald is the same tomorrow as well.

[dong]

That's nice. I was, however, responding to the OP.

Yes and I was responding to your point.
The OP did mention pitch invasions...

[Charlie Darwin]

How big a problem, when it comes to promoting the league and getting people in the gate, is anti-social behavior? We've seen, sadly, plenty of such incident already this season, not least the carry-on last night in Sligo.
Sorry, I am confused. Shamrock Rovers weren't playing in Sligo last night.

On a serious note, behavioural problems at LOI are probably exacerbated by the late starts, particularly at clubs who play on Saturday nights where people have all day to drink (this isn't a dig at Sligo - I've never met a Sligo fan who wasn't a gentleman). The LOI doesn't have a huge hooligan problem but it could probably be improved by moving to afternoon games. Whether that would help attendances, I don't know. Clubs could absolutely do more to highlight undesirable elements, including my own.

[Fivesilver]

I see where you're coming from but in Sligo people love evenings under the lights. Rather than give that up more attention could be focused on refusing people entry if they are clearly drunk. It might lead to a few scenes at the turnstiles, but stationing a small handful of cops there should be enough to deal with that.

[Charlie Darwin]

To be honest, I've never seen a gard at a LOI game who looks like they'd be willing to evict a drunk person. Half of them look **** scared to begin with.

[Guinney]

It seems that Irish media enjoys reporting and exaggerating LOI incidents and non-LOI fans enjoy reading and/or talking about it as another stick to beat the league with.

My thoughts exactly. Funny enough I was having a chat with two lads (barstoolers) in Kennedys (a pub next to Oriel) after the match on Friday and said basically the exact same thing to them. Both asked what was the result from the Dundalk/Cork match and claimed to be 'big' Man Utd and Aresnal fans. Both said they wouldn't go near Oriel due to the 'trouble' at matches - as I said the Kennedy's is a minute from Oriel & full of Dundalk fans & a couple of Cork fans as well fans at this stage.

I was wasting my time talking to them, as they firmly believed half the fans that go to LOI matches are hooligans and the media has a lot to answer for this. The only time I remember a LOI match in the back of a major newspaper was when Rovers fans came to Oriel in 2010, but incidents like that are the one thing non-LOI fans remember.

I am not saying we don't have problems with certain fans, but with most problems it the minority and in comparison to other Leagues, crowd trouble in the LOI isn't a major issue. Even the GAA has more 'violence' or 'crowd trouble' at matches on and off the pitch. But I do feel the security at a league games could be improved on. A lot of clubs have stewards who have no training and who are very lacks with their implementation of the rules and regulations at grounds. The same could be said for the Gardaí who are often reluctant to implement the ground regulations as well and only get involved when serious issues arise. For example some people pointed out that plenty of the Drogheda fans gained access into the Showgrounds when they where clearly drunk, it would be the same at a lot of other grounds, but shouldn't be the case. Prevention is better than cure.

[Charlie Darwin]

My thoughts exactly. Funny enough I was having a chat with two lads (barstoolers) in Kennedys (a pub next to Oriel) after the match on Friday and said basically the exact same thing to them. Both asked what was the result from the Dundalk/Cork match and claimed to be 'big' Man Utd and Aresnal fans. Both said they wouldn't go near Oriel due to the 'trouble' at matches - as I said the Kennedy's is a minute from Oriel & full of Dundalk fans & a couple of Cork fans as well fans at this stage.

I was wasting my time talking to them, as they firmly believed half the fans that go to LOI matches are hooligans and the media has a lot to answer for this. The only time I remember a LOI match in the back of a major newspaper was when Rovers fans came to Oriel in 2010, but incidents like that are the one thing non-LOI fans remember.

I am not saying we don't have problems with certain fans, but with most problems it the minority and in comparison to other Leagues, crowd trouble in the LOI isn't a major issue. Even the GAA has more 'violence' or 'crowd trouble' at matches on and off the pitch. But I do feel the security at a league games could be improved on. A lot of clubs have stewards who have no training and who are very lacks with their implementation of the rules and regulations at grounds. The same could be said for the Gardaí who are often reluctant to implement the ground regulations as well and only get involved when serious issues arise. For example some people pointed out that plenty of the Drogheda fans gained access into the Showgrounds when they where clearly drunk, it would be the same at a lot of other grounds, but shouldn't be the case. Prevention is better than cure.
They have a point though. When was the last time a group of Manchester United fans showed up at an Arsenal pub in Dundalk and caused trouble? Never. It's all those blasted LOI fans.

[mypost]

On a serious note, behavioural problems at LOI are probably exacerbated by the late starts, particularly at clubs who play on Saturday nights where people have all day to drink. it could probably be improved by moving to afternoon games. Whether that would help attendances, I don't know.

We played Sligo last year on a Saturday afternoon. The game didn't pass off without incident.

Better security/stewarding is the answer, not afternoon kos.

[Sean South]

This is what Drogs fans think about some of their supporters.

http://www.forzadrogs.com/?p=1206

[Macy]

The media love hyping LoI trouble, as it justifies them not covering it the rest of the time. The majority of punters lap it up, as it justifies them not going (add to the list of bs excuses).

The type of idiots that say there's too much trouble in the LoI probably refer to themselves as "Gooners" if they're Arsenal consumers or as being part of the "Red Army" if they're United consumers without having a f**king clue about the origins of those nicknames.

As a father of two young children, potential trouble doesn't put me off bringing the children to a match. (State of the jacks on the other hand...)

[outspoken]

The stewarding at LOI games is a joke tbf, must stewards are just your average fan willing to help out with no experience or training and fair play to them for doing it but the gardai have a lot to answer for as I don't know how many times I've seen them just look at a drunken fan stagger by and say nah won't bother only for that same fan to be involved in something latter on. Pitch invasions (most of the time just 2 or 3 over excited individuals with no intent on doing harm) are becoming a regular event and the more people get away with it the more other elements will join in with the intent of causing harm like in Sligo the other night. Time for a big change in the way games are stewarded.

[Fivesilver]

Agreed. Most stewards are doing their best but don't really have the ability to control this kind of thing. A big lump of a bouncer clobbering a few of these pups would be satisfying but you'd see clubs getting in legal trouble pretty quickly.
Surely it worth be a worthwhile investment for the FAI to fund, or at least heavily subsidise, training for stewards. Having properly trained security at grounds would give a lot of parents more confidence about bringing the whole family along.

[Macy]

A big lump of a bouncer clobbering a few of these pups would be satisfying but you'd see clubs getting in legal trouble pretty quickly.

It's a fine line - over agressive stewards can be part of the problem too.


Having properly trained security at grounds would give a lot of parents more confidence about bringing the whole family along.
I really don't see it as something that is stopping families attending tbh, or something that would encourage them to go. It'd be a handy response to people using it as an excuse to say "every steward is trained to x standard", but then they'd wheel out some other excuse.

[Shannonsider]

When it comes to reasons why the LOI isn't getting a very large audience, how big of one is this kind of thing? I know one or two people who swear off the league because of what they deem a "violent" or drunken element pervading (one lives in Cabra, and has had more than one bad experience around Bohs/Shams time), but how prevalent is that? Do people notice this as a cause for lack of engagement from some people? Is it on the increase?

And what can be done? Should LOI clubs start banning people from going to games for life? How enforceable is that, really? Is it a Garda issue or a stewarding one? Do other sports in Ireland have similar or worse issues with ASB?

I'm sure the same person has no problem walking around in their English side's jersey if there was an incident at their ground this weekend.

[NeverFeltBetter]

While I understand your point, that's not the case with this particular person.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think there seems to be a consensus that the problem is overblown by media who prefer a negative story when it come to LOI and that those claiming it affects their decision to attend LOI games are judging the league by an unfair standard when compared to other leagues/sports that is, their just excusing their lack of support for the home league.

I would agree that an increase in the standard of stewarding as opposed to relying on inefficient and frequently non-existent to Garda support, would do a lot to alter the perception some people have, but would it be fair to say that it wouldn't really get more people in the door (maybe a small few)? That's a depressing thought.

[wonder88]

The was a huge Garda presence at Richmond Park last night. Fans were frisked on the way in and the away supporters were kept back at the end for a while. Guards were placed all around the ground, and the riot squad were outside in a minibus. Unbelievable but true, there was about six Gardaí with alsation dogs outside across the road from the entrance to the ground. The attendance was not give out, but my estimate would be that there was less than 2k people at the match. Do the FAI/St Patricks have to make any payment to the Gardaí for this type of operation? and another question does this type of security/hassle put some people off from going to games (I found it a bit offputting, but maybe I am unusual in that)

[SkStu]

Probably the friendliest of the main Dublin derbies (between Shels, Rovers, Pats and ourselves) too. Richmond was easily my favourite Dublin and environs trip.

[PartySaint]

The was a huge Garda presence at Richmond Park last night. Fans were frisked on the way in and the away supporters were kept back at the end for a while. Guards were placed all around the ground, and the riot squad were outside in a minibus. Unbelievable but true, there was about six Gardaí with alsation dogs outside across the road from the entrance to the ground. The attendance was not give out, but my estimate would be that there was less than 2k people at the match. Do the FAI/St Patricks have to make any payment to the Gardaí for this type of operation? and another question does this type of security/hassle put some people off from going to games (I found it a bit offputting, but maybe I am unusual in that)

Pats have to pay for it and it's totally OTT, always like that for our Dublin Derbies and when Dundalk are in town. There was a small bit of hassle with Drogheda in our first game of the season so hopefully after a few incident free games since then it might ease up a little.

[redarmyfaction]

Looks like some the Drogs are facing charges and the feeling is that at least one is looking at time.

[White Horse]

The was a huge Garda presence at Richmond Park last night. Fans were frisked on the way in and the away supporters were kept back at the end for a while. Guards were placed all around the ground, and the riot squad were outside in a minibus. Unbelievable but true, there was about six Gardaí with alsation dogs outside across the road from the entrance to the ground. The attendance was not give out, but my estimate would be that there was less than 2k people at the match. Do the FAI/St Patricks have to make any payment to the Gardaí for this type of operation? and another question does this type of security/hassle put some people off from going to games (I found it a bit offputting, but maybe I am unusual in that)

Oddly, my kids love when Shamrock Rovers and Drogheda come to Oriel Park.

In particular, my little daughter loves petting the police horses.

I wouldn't go too near the police dogs though. Nasty looking things.

[wonder88]

If Pats had to pay for the Garda security last night then they must have made a big loss financially.

[Charlie Darwin]

If Pats had to pay for the Garda security last night then they must have made a big loss financially.
I'd have thought they'd have an arrangement for the whole season and they'd have had this fixture accounted for anyway. Clubs don't pay the true cost of policing anyway, just a fee.

[marinobohs]

Pats have to pay for it and it's totally OTT, always like that for our Dublin Derbies and when Dundalk are in town. There was a small bit of hassle with Drogheda in our first game of the season so hopefully after a few incident free games since then it might ease up a little.

There have been a few minor incidents ( mainly shape throwing and some stone throwing) at Pats / Bohs games in recent years but noting serious. Mainly kids acting hard and no justification for the OTT 'policing'. Ironically enough most of the pubs around would have mixed cutomer base (Bohs and Pats) which makes the situation on the street even more silly.

[Sean South]

I find the Gardai in Dublin cause more hassle then they are worth. Overall our support is very placid and never any trouble in Dublin. For our game vs Pats there was around 20 Gardai around the ground but never any trouble with Pats and ourselves. Going into the ground getting searched they made a few remarks that was best ignored. In Dalymount I've noticed them trying to provoke a reaction from our fans many times but were ignored again. They seem to think all "soccer" fans are trouble.

[Fivesilver]

Our local Guardians of the Peace didn't exactly cover themselves in glory at the Drogheda game either, telling stewards to let in a group the latter had identified as drunk and - correctly, as it turned out - likely to cause trouble.

[redarmyfaction]

Most hassle is caused by Green Street fantasist, it's hard to barstool hooliganism so they attach themselves to LOI clubs, I blame Elijah Wood, wasting fortunes on snide charlie makes them cross too.

[Nesta99]

Pats have to pay for it and it's totally OTT, always like that for our Dublin Derbies and when Dundalk are in town. There was a small bit of hassle with Drogheda in our first game of the season so hopefully after a few incident free games since then it might ease up a little.

Didnt think the Garda presence in general around richmond was that severe for our visit. There were 4 to 5 garda standing in the corner of our section but that was due to the steward reporting that a few were drinking and smoking in the stand and refused to co-operate with the stewards requests to desist. There was a distinctive herbal smell at one point and resulted in quite a few youngster being searched. No police dogs/horses and only a couple of garda outside pre-match and we werent held back after. Had a great chat with some pats lads on the Luas on the way home. All pretty tame.

I am very impressed with Drogs handling of recent events. All clubs with the undesirable element should take note.

I too enjoy the large garda presence at Oriel as it give that big match feel, the whole town knows a game is on, strange reasoning in its own right.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Sort of related to this thread, recently I applied for a job with one of the firms that handle event stewarding in Limerick. I mentioned in the interview that I attended the LOI games in Thomond. The interview took a sudden swerve into a diatribe from the interviewer and, without them flat out saying it, it was made clear to me that football fans were considered a far more difficult prospect for stewards to deal with than rugby fans - there was certainly a very obvious distaste in their voice as they talked about soccer fans.

I've never witnessed or heard of any bad behavior from home or away LOI fans in Thomond, beyond some chanting some people might find offensive. So, I can only theorise that their opinions were based off a larger outlook on soccer fans in general. I still wonder how prevalent that perception is about the LOI, and what can be done to counter it.

[Sheridan]

It's nothing to do with reality in the LOI, and there's nothing the LOI can do to counter it. It's a social/class narrative further perpetuated by the massive PR/propaganda apparatuses of rugby and GAA.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sort of related to this thread, recently I applied for a job with one of the firms that handle event stewarding in Limerick. I mentioned in the interview that I attended the LOI games in Thomond. The interview took a sudden swerve into a diatribe from the interviewer and, without them flat out saying it, it was made clear to me that football fans were considered a far more difficult prospect for stewards to deal with than rugby fans - there was certainly a very obvious distaste in their voice as they talked about soccer fans.

I've never witnessed or heard of any bad behavior from home or away LOI fans in Thomond, beyond some chanting some people might find offensive. So, I can only theorise that their opinions were based off a larger outlook on soccer fans in general. I still wonder how prevalent that perception is about the LOI, and what can be done to counter it.
I can't comment on LOI games but from security people I know the perception is that big games in the big stadiums are much more difficult to steward if they're soccer than rugby. GAA is closer to soccer than rugby from what I've heard.

[vinnie]

I can never understand where they get this from, I do the Turnstiles in Tallaght for away supporters and with the exception of 2 Pats fans & 1 Bohs fan I have never encountered a bad word from any away supporters. Derry, Sligo and Drogheda in my opinion are the best craic, but certainly no trouble from any others



Sort of related to this thread, recently I applied for a job with one of the firms that handle event stewarding in Limerick. I mentioned in the interview that I attended the LOI games in Thomond. The interview took a sudden swerve into a diatribe from the interviewer and, without them flat out saying it, it was made clear to me that football fans were considered a far more difficult prospect for stewards to deal with than rugby fans - there was certainly a very obvious distaste in their voice as they talked about soccer fans.

I've never witnessed or heard of any bad behavior from home or away LOI fans in Thomond, beyond some chanting some people might find offensive. So, I can only theorise that their opinions were based off a larger outlook on soccer fans in general. I still wonder how prevalent that perception is about the LOI, and what can be done to counter it.

[Johnnie C]

Did that book on Seamie O'Boyle and the Sligo bootboys of the 70s ever get written?