Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

[BonnieShels]

Do you regard Ireland as British though?

If you do, how come? If not (and I'd assume you don't), then isn't it the case that you're just going along with or conforming to the use of a misnomer in order to appease or not inconvenience the imperious, the mistaken and the misled?

It's not even necessarily that it offends or insults (although it has the potential to be used in such a manner too); it's more so that I just don't consider it remotely factual.

When I was younger I had more of a problem with it and would resolutely bristle at the use of the term. But as I've gotten older and more confident in my own "Nationalism" It means less to me if uttered. I feel like I'm with Walsall on this one. I don't like the term, but we have bigger fish to fry.

Interestingly, years and years ago I purchased The Isles: A History by Norman Davies in which he discusses the gestation of the title and the book:


Many years later, having written Europe: A History, I was invited to give a lecture at University College, Dublin. After the presentation, someone in the audience asked about my current project. I started to reply that I was thinking of writing a history of 'the British—'. I then realized that in Dublin, of all places, one cannot talk fairly of 'the British Isles'. The Isles ceased to be British precisely fifty years ago when the Republic of Ireland left the Commonwealth, though few people in the British residue have yet cared to notice. Various clumsy alternatives were discussed, such as 'the British and Irish Isles', 'Europe's Offshore Islands', and the 'Anglo-Celtic Archipelago'. In the end, it was decided that the only decent name for the forthcoming book was 'A History of These Islands'. And such was one of several working titles until, after much trial and error, I eventually arrived at The Isles: A History.

Worth a read, the book. You'll pick up some nuggets. It's nice to read something that is devoid of "an angle" and purports to be a strict neutral telling of the history of our islands.

The confidence is back within Irish Nationalism and we should now continue to sell this post-Brexit UI to everyone.

---

While looking for the above quote I happened upon the original Grauniad review from Jan 2000 and it was interesting given the content of the book and the lengths that Davies went to be neutral that the reviewer opened with this partagraph:

"Sometimes - frequently, in fact - one doesn't know quite what to make of critics, or of the flatly contradictory conclusions they reach. Take Norman Davies's The Isles, a 1,200-page romp through the whole of British history, which has produced a remarkable divergence of opinion..."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jan/11/1

Mon dieu.

[BonnieShels]

I was reading Slugger there and the commenter, Obelisk in response to Msiegnaro, hit the nail on the head for me.


There is a rugged honesty within Unionism but we really lack charm and we need to sell our message better - we can still do it in an honest manner.


What you call 'rugged honesty' I call paranoia. Yes, there is a tradition of fiercely criticising leaders within Unionism. Sadly it's criticism of leaders who attempted breaking the mould or reaching out to Nationalism. Throughout this thread you have been making multiple comments of repackaging Unionism, or selling Unionism, or sending a better message.

This isn't exactly a revelation. Plenty of other Unionists before you have come to the same conclusion. And they have either been ignored, marginalised or (if in a leadership position) torn down. O'Neill. Faulkner. Trimble. Even Ian Paisley was torn for appearing to be too accommodating. IAN PAISLEY.

You could STILL give it a try I guess. I mean, the Union is beginning to crumble and it would have been better tried a few decades back but you COULD.

You just won't. The reaction of the Unionist parties since last Thursday has been so predictable as to be boring. Calls for Unionist Unity abound. Denial that the result is representative. A belief that next time if they can just get their vote out they can put things back the way the were.

It's getting increasingly pathetic to observe. Unionism is forever an ideology in eternal pursuit of their last, lost line of defense.

They lost the old majority rule Stormont, they spent decades wanting Stormont majority rule back.

They had to settle for powersharing, but at least they were the majority. Then the majority went. Now the cries will be about getting the majority back.

And Sinn Fein just keep slowly pushing their project forward, bit by bit, helped along by the intransigence and narrow mindedness of a political enemy they couldn't have designed better had they tried...in circumstances of Brexit that are terrifying for all but as a silver lining, opportunistic for Sinn Fein.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2017/03/08/after-ae17-sinn-fein/

[backstothewall]

Do you regard Ireland as British though?

If you do, how come? If not (and I'd assume you don't), then isn't it the case that you're just going along with or conforming to the use of a misnomer in order to appease or not inconvenience the imperious, the mistaken and the misled?

It's not even necessarily that it offends or insults (although it has the potential to be used in such a manner too); it's more so that I just don't consider it remotely factual.

Land doesn't have a nationality. It's defined by the people who live there. So I guess the question is are Irish people British.

And I'd say the answer to that is a heavily qualified yes. I see Irishness as a type of Britishness just as I see it as a type of Europeanness.

We certainly share much more in common with the English, Scots & Welsh than the French.

The word British comes with a lot of baggage, but there is no other word for it. I've no interest in Ireland being part of a British political unit, but we have always been part of a cultural one.

Basically there is something there that is structurally similar to Scandanavia. We just don't have a good word for it.

[Real ale Madrid]

A fascinating map showing how Europe might look if every secessionist, separatist or independence movement on the continent succeeded or had succeeded:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/15d5b515e0bfae8ece280648741f542b/tumblr_oma309jIE41rasnq9o1_1280.jpg

I note it has Ireland's capital down as Athlone, a reference to the old Éire Nua policy (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éire_Nua) adopted by Sinn Féin during the 1970s and early 1980s. This remains a policy of some "dissident" republican groups.

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.

[osarusan]

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.
There was a draw made for qualifiers some years ago. I don't remember if it was EC or WC qualifiers, but it had a huge number of 'conditions' in it because of regional political tensions.

When it came to the lower seeded teams, team X would be drawn out, the the host would explain that because team X can't be in group A, B, or C, because of the teams already in there, they must go into group D, E, or F. And when team Y was drawn out, because they couldn't go into groups A, B, or C, or be in the same group as X, it could only be E or F...and so on.

[backstothewall]

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.

And if you think Eurovision is crap now...

[DannyInvincible]

Land doesn't have a nationality. It's defined by the people who live there. So I guess the question is are Irish people British.

And I'd say the answer to that is a heavily qualified yes. I see Irishness as a type of Britishness just as I see it as a type of Europeanness.

We certainly share much more in common with the English, Scots & Welsh than the French.

The word British comes with a lot of baggage, but there is no other word for it. I've no interest in Ireland being part of a British political unit, but we have always been part of a cultural one.

Basically there is something there that is structurally similar to Scandanavia. We just don't have a good word for it.

Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though? In what sense does it make us a British people exactly? The term "British" finds its roots in the Brittonic branch of the Celts. It was the Goidels, or Gaels, who inhabited Ireland. The term "British" was eventually (mis)appropriated by the non-Brittonic English crown as a means of "legitimising" its claim to dominion over the entire island of Great Britain and the surrounding islands, which happened to include Ireland, but I'm not sure how that sleight of tongue makes us a British people. We became British all of a sudden just because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles?... Our lingua-cultural heritage is primarily Gaelic; not English or Brittonic (although I do accept that those cultures have been influential upon Irish culture to varying degrees over the centuries).

Maybe "the Celtic Isles" would be a more appropriate or accurate term, although the English (Anglo-Saxons) weren't Celts, of course. How about "the Anglo-Celtic Isles" then?

[DannyInvincible]

Irish university's are officially backing unity. It's fantastic to see such positivity and a real developing momentum around the idea now.

'UCD Students Vote to Support the Reunification of Ireland': http://www.universitytimes.ie/2017/03/ucd-students-vote-to-support-the-reunification-of-ireland/


With a vote taking place in Trinity next week and students in other universities already voting in favour, a referendum mandating University College Dublin Students’ Union (UCDSU) to have a pro-unity stance on a united Ireland has passed, with 63.1 per cent of voting students voting in favour the proposal.

Voting took place on March 7th and 8th, alongside the union’s sabbatical officer elections, with the results announced today from the College’s student centre.

Speaking to The University Times today, Lucy Connor, Chair of UCD for Unity, said the campaign was “absolutely over the moon” with the result, stating the campaign’s belief that “now is the time for a united Ireland”.

There was no official no campaign for the referendum. Connor is also Chair of the UCD branch of Sinn Féin, but was not speaking to The University Times or campaigning in this capacity.

“We think that now, given the circumstances with Brexit, given the way the North has been treated, given the way the North has absolutely no way whatsoever in what way it’s future’s going, the way the two economies are going, we think that now is the time to have a serious debate on the alternatives to the status quo at the minute.”

“The reason we specifically did it in UCD was a few weeks ago a couple of the chairs of different societies in Cork, Galway, Dublin and Belfast came together and decided to lobby their students’ union for a united Ireland”, Connor explained.

“Obviously there are plenty more universities than just Queen’s, Cork, Galway and UCD, there’s Limerick, there’s DIT, Magee up in Derry, so it’s a way to get the ball rolling and have the major institutions on board. After this we hope to actually form together to create a Universities for Unity”, Connor added.

Both NUI Galway Students’ Union (NUIGSU) and University College Cork Students’ Union (UCCSU) are also mandated to support Irish unity after recent votes.

On March 2nd, students in NUI Galway voted to mandate NUIGSU to support the reunification of Ireland and to call on the state “to hold a national referendum on the question of such reunification”, after 2,337 students, over 71 per cent of valid votes, voted in favour.

Sixty-three per cent of voting students in UCC voted yes when asked: “Should UCC Students’ union campaign in favour of a United Ireland?” The referendum was held after signatures were collected by the college branch of Sinn Féin, with the results in both colleges hailed by the main Sinn Féin party.

The news also comes as Trinity students will vote next week in a preferendum that will help determine the stance students want Trinity College Dublin Students’ Union (TCDSU) to take. Campaigning started today, with the preferendum presenting three options to students: in favour of reunification, against reunification and a neutral stance.

A referendum may then be put to students to create a binding union policy.

The preferendum comes as the result of a motion passed at a meeting of TCDSU’s council in February. The arose after a discussion item proposed by Business, Economics and Social Studies (BESS) student Conall Moran, who stated that the issue would “soon be a very prominent student issue” as political developments such as Brexit and the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) scandal. Moran also drew attention to the then-imminent Northern Ireland Assembly elections.

Speaking to The University Times over email, ahead of the today’s results being announced in UCD, Moran said: “It has been great to see this response in Universities across Ireland. This is a topic that definitely deserves to be discussed and considered and it is great to see students of Ireland doing this.”

“We’ve seen positive results so far and we are hoping that this trend can continue with Trinity’s vote”, he added.

The Northern Ireland elections, which have since taken place, saw a major political upset for the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), who now hold just a seat more than Sinn Féín, and also saw the highest turnout since the vote which followed the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

In 2014, Sinn Féin branch of Queen’s University Belfast called for the union to hold a motion on the question of Irish unification. The referendum was narrowly defeated, with just over 50 per cent of students voting against the motion. Students instead voted overwhelmingly in favour of the union taking a neutral stance on the issue.

At a meeting of TCDSU’s council on Tuesday, uncontested candidate for President of the Union of Students in Ireland (USI), Michael Kerrigan, stated in response to a question that USI was unable to take a stance on the issue due to their arrangement with the National Union of Students (NUS) in Britain. Both NUS and USI come together to form NUS-USI in Northern Ireland, which represents over 200,000 students and campaigns on their behalf.

[BonnieShels]

Not to get twee about it but there is definitely a "feeling" about the place [Dublin] when it comes to this matter. As a DIT student I'm gonna get onto our SU Prez and see what we are planning wrt this.

EDIT: Email sent. His term is coming to an end and our president is relatively ineffective generally. So we'll see.

[Gather round]

Irish university's are officially backing unity. It's fantastic

Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being ;)

[DannyInvincible]

But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being ;)

http://i.imgur.com/VvN3o.gif

Of course, I didn't mean "fantastic" in that formal/literal/original sense, but touché. :)

[BonnieShels]

Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being ;)

Be not afraid.

[BonnieShels]

So I got a response from the Acting President:


Hi BonnieShels,

Your email to helpdesk@ditsu.ie was forwarded on to me as Acting President.

Thank you for raising the question, certainly it has become a discussion topic for a few SU's so far over the last while.

I will absolutely bring the discussion up with the Executive Team in DITSU but it'll have to be after the Elections for this year have concluded.

Please let me know if I can be of any more help in the meantime.

Best,

Acting Prez

Useless

[Wolfman]

Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being

Coming from someone indulging in circular, repetitive waffle and who uses American 'english' with their 'spelling', irony much...

And hardly a fantasy. Look at what certain 'unionists' have been doing or saying post-Brexit. Luckily they're not all myopic!



Of course, I didn't mean "fantastic" in that formal/literal/original sense, but touché.

Don't indulge him Danny!

[backstothewall]

Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though? In what sense does it make us a British people exactly? The term "British" finds its roots in the Brittonic branch of the Celts. It was the Goidels, or Gaels, who inhabited Ireland. The term "British" was eventually (mis)appropriated by the non-Brittonic English crown as a means of "legitimising" its claim to dominion over the entire island of Great Britain and the surrounding islands, which happened to include Ireland, but I'm not sure how that sleight of tongue makes us a British people. We became British all of a sudden just because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles?... Our lingua-cultural heritage is primarily Gaelic; not English or Brittonic (although I do accept that those cultures have been influential upon Irish culture to varying degrees over the centuries).

Maybe "the Celtic Isles" would be a more appropriate or accurate term, although the English (Anglo-Saxons) weren't Celts, of course. How about "the Anglo-Celtic Isles" then?

There's a lot to address there, but I've spoken about the name above. Anything i would say about that would only be to repeat my self.


Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though?


Yeah. Kinda. Or more accurately it makes Irishness a kind of Britishness. I think we're still too defensive about this as we're anxious about our nationhood. But we shouldn't be. Ireland isn't a nation once again. It was always a nation, and always will be. We don't have to worry about being the equal of the English anymore. We are the equal of any nation, be it Britain, the USA or Gambia. We should secure in ourselves about that. And being confident of that means that we should be honest, and proud, of our part in whatever that common culture of these islands is.


In what sense does it make us a British people exactly?

In the sense that everybody from Dover to the Bloody Foreland is a hybrid. We've all rubbed off on each other in massive ways. This isn't a case of us becoming British because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles. The reason i say this is because we DIDN'T become the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles, yet we have had a MASSIVE influence on British culture.

A couple of (diverse) examples.

- British Racing Green. The classic colour of British manufacturing. Not just cars, although a Jaguar doesn't look as good in any other colour. Came about as a tribute to Ireland by the Napier Racing team when the Gordon Bennett Cup was held in Athy, Kildare in 1903, as they were hosting the event but Ireland was the only part of the UK where motor racing was legal.

- Ed Sheeran. Don't even listen to him. Just look at him

- Fish and Chips. It's literally as British as fish and chips. At least it has been since the mid 19th century. Before that it was as British as fish and bread, but a mass wave of immigration from Ireland to Britain occurred due to the famine. Shops selling fried potatoes started popping up in areas populated by immigrants and before you knew it a British classic was born. And today it's sold in every city, town and village in Britian (and Ireland).

- Tayto. The Brits might make their own crisps, but it was an Irishman who came up with the idea of flavouring them with more than just salt. It sounds obvious now, and it seems equally obvious that everyone would copy the idea. But they didn't. A walk around a supermarket on holidays in Spain, France or Portugal will confirm as much. The Brits did though, a Mr Walker from Leicester in particular.

- The Gallagher brothers: "The first music I was ever exposed to was the rebel songs the bands used to sing in the Irish club in Manchester. Do you know, I think that's where Oasis songs get their punch-the-air quality" - Noel Gallagher". If you're old enough imagine England in the mid-late 1990s without Oasis. Just Tony Blair and Blur.

- Rashers. A new way to cut bacon from Henry Denny. Now a staple of the full English Breakfast, and quite frankly what is served as bacon outside these Anglo-Celtic Isles is crap

- Everything our rugby players have done with the Lions. Once FIFA finally ruin the World Cup I can see a day the football associations do something similar.

- Our men, from the Duke of Wellington to Col. Tim Collins, built a large part of the British military (and by default, the British Empire). 195 recipeints of the Victoria Cross, and still counting. We might not have been in charge, but we were a big part of that. It may have been forgotten but many an Indian villager lost their life to an Irishman.

- Terry Wogan

I've focused on our influence on England & Wales there. I know the English are hard work at times, but imagine how much worse they would be without us nudging them in the right direct.

And that's the effect we've had on the English. Scotland is a massively exaggerated version of that. If there wasn't water between Ireland and Scotland I'm not sure how one would know where one ends and the other begins.

I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness. Having a Republic doesn't give the 26 counties a monopoly on Irishness. Having a United Kingdom doesn't give GB&NI a monopoly on Britishness. Not least because this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back.

[Wolfman]

Wouldn't agree with all of that, but can see where you're coming from.

My experience of talking to random unionists is some cases of extreme intransigence, so you might have to go rather more than you have!

[Gather round]

I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness...this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back

I'm a lifelong Atheist albeit with an interest in and relaxed attitude to organised religion. I've embraced my Irishness throughout. Some of it the same as your Irishness. How British or otherwise you feel is up to you.

Partition may hold you back (if so, how?), but what allows you to speak for everyone else?

[DannyInvincible]

- Fish and Chips. It's literally as British as fish and chips. At least it has been since the mid 19th century. Before that it was as British as fish and bread, but a mass wave of immigration from Ireland to Britain occurred due to the famine. Shops selling fried potatoes started popping up in areas populated by immigrants and before you knew it a British classic was born. And today it's sold in every city, town and village in Britian (and Ireland).


To nit-pick, wasn't fried fish and chips a Jewish phenomenon originally?


- Our men, from the Duke of Wellington to Col. Tim Collins, built a large part of the British military (and by default, the British Empire). 195 recipeints of the Victoria Cross, and still counting. We might not have been in charge, but we were a big part of that. It may have been forgotten but many an Indian villager lost their life to an Irishman.

Certainly not our proudest contribution to global affairs.


I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness. Having a Republic doesn't give the 26 counties a monopoly on Irishness. Having a United Kingdom doesn't give GB&NI a monopoly on Britishness. Not least because this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back.

You're right that the 26-county state doesn't possess a monopoly over Irishness. GR does embrace his Irishness (as do many unionists) - it's a British form of Irishness, certainly, but a perfectly valid form of Irishness all the same - but even if he (or they) didn't want to do so, there's no expectation or obligation upon him (or them) to embrace Irishness from my corner. They can identify however they wish; be it as Irish, as Irish and British, solely as British, as Northern Irish or however.

If you feel in some way British yourself for the reasons outlined above, fair enough, but, as GR points out, it doesn't give you a voice to speak for everyone else. I think the term "British" is loaded and problematic when sweepingly applied to Ireland and the Irish as a whole, but we've both outlined our positions clearly and there's no point really going over again what is a matter of opinion. :)

[Wolfman]

I'm a lifelong Atheist albeit with an interest in and relaxed attitude to organised religion. I've embraced my Irishness throughout. Some of it the same as your Irishness. How British or otherwise you feel is up to you.

Partition may hold you back (if so, how?), but what allows you to speak for everyone else?
If you're an atheist, why would you care who governs you and who their 'official' church is?

As for 'embracing Irishness', it seems to done in a highly qualified extent by many unionists.
Using criteria most, er, Irish people probably wouldn't dream of. Including 'feeling British' even at all, fine people some of them are...

And as an Irish person who's not embracing his 'Britishness' (!!!), bttw's opinion is as valid as any!

[DannyInvincible]

Enda Kenny announced in Philadelphia today that the Irish government is to hold a referendum as to whether to extend presidential election voting rights to Irish citizens living in the north and abroad: http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859078-st-patricks-day/


Taoiseach Enda Kenny has confirmed that the Government will move forward with plans to hold a referendum to allow Irish citizens resident outside the state - including in Northern Ireland - the right to vote in Irish presidential elections.

In a speech at the Famine Memorial in Philadelphia, he confirmed the Government had taken a decision to move forward with plans to hold a referendum to give the right to vote in presidential elections to Irish citizens abroad, including those in Northern Ireland.

Mr Kenny said the decision, taken at a cabinet meeting last week was a "clear recognition of the importance that Ireland attached to her citizens wherever they were".

The move was recommended by the Constitutional Convention in 2013 and last July the Diaspora Minister Joe McHugh said there was a commitment to hold a referendum.

An options paper will be published later this month outlining arrangements on how to register citizens abroad, and how to facilitate voting outside of Ireland.

This will then be discussed during the Global Irish Civic Forum in Dublin in May.

The referendum is unlikely to be held this year, and assuming it passes, would come into effect for the presidential election after the one set for 2018.

A very positive development.

[BonnieShels]

I was just coming in to post this. I seem to recall a thread years ago on this. Must root it out.

[BonnieShels]

Fianna Fáil are going to publish a white paper which is nice. But dual Parliaments? What in the what? that would just entrench difference.

http://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/0313/859320-fianna-fail-united-ireland/

[BonnieShels]

Also, I thought it was funny when Arlene (who I actually admire in an odd way, despite not agreeing with her on much, in contrast to the contempt in which I hold the likes of nincompoop Edwin Poots, wind-up Gregory Campbell or haughty Nelson McCausland) tweeted to wish us congratulations after our great victory over Italy: https://twitter.com/dupleader/status/745724610067443712



The tweet was a complete surprise, but a sign that her heart isn't made of stone, after all. It also happened to be her most popular tweet ever, which just goes to show how far a little bit of respect and good will goes. An indication of its exceptional nature too. As a responding tweeter said: "your most popular tweet ever. A lesson in diversity and respect can go a long way. A bit more would be good for all."

How's your admiration now Danny? :P

[DannyInvincible]

How's your admiration now Danny? :P

It went up in a cloud of ash.

[Gather round]

If you're an atheist, why would you care who governs you!

God knows.

[Wolfman]

Except according to a lot of people, you included, he doesn't exist!

[CraftyToePoke]

Wasn't fully sure which thread this best belongs in, but am surprised a little it hasn't gotten more attention today, some nuts and bolts detail on how the border will be managed, (hopefully anyway) and the specific peace process assurance. I'm sure the DUP will raise an eyebrow or three at why their Tory brethren couldn't have thrown them this bone two weeks back or so, but there we go.



UK rules out border posts between NI and Republic post-Brexit

The British government has ruled out introducing Irish border posts after leaving the EU.

Brexit secretary David Davis said the UK would adopt technology to cover the movement of goods between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

He gave evidence to his Westminster scrutiny committee about the future of the UK's only land frontier with an EU state.

He said: "It is not going to be easy, it is going to cost us money, a lot of work on technology, to put border controls in but without having border posts - but that is what we intend to do."

Businesses north and south are unanimously opposed to a hard border following Brexit, with long queues for paperwork checks envisaged akin to the 1980s when the Northern Ireland conflict still simmered.

Tour operators, hoteliers, business leaders and members of the agriculture industry are among those concerned about the implications if no special deal is struck between the UK and Ireland.

Mr Davis said: "I am confident that actually the two nations and the (European) Commission between them will be able to solve this because we really want to, because the technology is better than it was 20 years ago and because we all understand the value of it."

He added: "We are not going to do anything which jeopardises the peace process."

The Brexit Secretary noted excise duty differences on goods moving between north and south were already dealt with in a subtle fashion.

He said the same system for sending goods between Belfast and Dublin could also control trade between the UK and a city like Rotterdam in Holland.

Freedom of movement between the UK and Ireland is covered by separate arrangements.

Under the UK's 1949 Ireland Act Irish citizens living in the UK are treated as "non-foreign".

That may have to be reviewed post-Brexit, given that the Republic would still be in the EU.

Mr Davis added: "What we will aim to do is pretty much identical to the 1949 Act, which gives effectively citizenship rights to the citizens of each country."



The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic can "work perfectly" and be "seamless" like the Norway-Sweden border, two Swedish MEPs said.

They have suggested the Irish border could be modeled on their EU frontier with Norway.

EU member state Sweden has a 1640km border with non-member Norway. The two countries enjoy trade links worth over €18 billion annually as they have bilateral cross-border agreements.

Asked if a similar arrangement could be replicated in Ireland, Swedish European People's Party MEP Gunnar Hokmark told RTÉ News: "The main issue is that you need to have trust between the countries, which we have between Sweden and Norway and I guess you would have the same [with Britain]. So I think it is very much how much you want it to be divided.

"Our experience is that it is very seamless, working in a way that when I get this question I need to think about it because I don't see any obvious obstacles. "

His Swedish colleague, Max Andersson, MEP for the Greens/European Free Alliance claimed the border with Norway "works perfectly."

He said: "It is like an internal EU border because Norway is a member of the single market agreement. Norway is also a member of Schengen agreement so unless Britain decides to become a member of the EEA [European Economic Area], if they do that, there will be no problems but if they don't do that, there will be border controls and that it going to be quite difficult.

[DannyInvincible]

Wasn't fully sure which thread this best belongs in, but am surprised a little it hasn't gotten more attention today, some nuts and bolts detail on how the border will be managed, (hopefully anyway) and the specific peace process assurance. I'm sure the DUP will raise an eyebrow or three at why their Tory brethren couldn't have thrown them this bone two weeks back or so, but there we go.

Don't believe the blather. "Technology" is the Brexiteer's fuzzword of choice when they're confronted on the question of a "hard" or "soft" border and it has often been deployed before Davis ever used it yesterday. I've heard Ian Paisley Junior and Arlene Foster trying to dubiously rely on it during debates in recent months and weeks. Edwin Poots even threw it out there without further clarification as to whatever the hell he meant by it on last night's Nolan Live (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08hznbs/nolan-live-series-9-episode-4).

But what does it actually mean? It's a vague and ambiguous term that's just thrown about to fill the void of cluelessness. There's been next to no detail offered by the proponents of this "technology" model. How exactly will "technology" be able to monitor/check individual truck trailers, car boots and haulage/transport documents whilst simultaneously ensuring that there is a "soft" or "frictionless" border, as has been promised?

And Davis can only speak from an internal UK perspective, so he's in absolutely no position to be giving guarantees for a "soft" border when reality is saying otherwise. He has no idea what sort of barriers and checks the EU will wish to place on the southern side of the Irish border in order to protect the political and economic integrity of the EU.

Furthermore, unmanned "technology" (if it's even possible/viable in the first place) will be like a sitting duck for potential saboteurs objecting to the inconvenience, sense of separation/division and threat to privacy that incendiary and disruptive customs, border controls and/or security installations will cause in their border communities. And there will be plenty of potential and willing saboteurs.

See the video here of a border community mobilising to remove a divisive reinforced concrete block from an "unapproved road" in the mid-1990s: https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85/status/715562289361985538

Such blocks were positioned along dozens of minor border roads and bridges by the British army during the "Troubles" when they weren't blowing them up (http://www.borderroadmemories.com/images/bc116/then/bc116_img016_large.jpg) or getting involved in armed border stand-offs with the Irish state army (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xfFOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2wEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7126,4901821).

If present-day border communities decide to take similar undermining, disobedient and subversive action in a post-Brexit scenario against any newly-established infrastructure that will hit local economies, livelihoods and ways of life hard, I could hardly blame them. Jaysis, I might even join them myself! :soldier:

"Technology" will thus require 24-hour manned - possibly even armed - protection, which will, in turn, offer further sitting-duck targets for those malcontents who might be prepared to go one step further than non-violent direct action and civil disobedience/resistance in their battle against the border.

The Norway-Sweden analogy won't even apply to the Irish border considering the UK is leaving the single market; both Norway and Sweden are party to the single market agreement and are also signatories of Schengen, so it's a totally different set of circumstances.

Brexiteers also frequently claim that the Common Travel Area will continue to exist without issue on the entirely suspect basis that it existed before both the UK and Ireland joined the EEC/EC/EU, but this ignores a rather crucial fact; at no time have Ireland and the UK ever been on opposite sides of the EU's border. They've always been either both on the outside or both on the inside, but Brexit will change that for the first time, whereafter the Irish state will find itself still on the inside with Brexit UK having moved to the outside.

The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.

[Gather round]

Danny preparing to cross the border:

https://hughgreen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/peter-robinson.jpg

[BonnieShels]

Clontibret is looking well

[Wolfman]

Nah, that's when he really was Iris's toyboy. Complete with loaded weapon?

[DannyInvincible]

Danny preparing to cross the border:

https://hughgreen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/peter-robinson.jpg

"A member of the British state's security forces manning the border", more like.

[BonnieShels]

No look sniping

[CraftyToePoke]

Don't believe the blather. "Technology" is the Brexiteer's fuzzword of choice when they're confronted on the question of a "hard" or "soft" border and it has often been deployed before Davis ever used it yesterday. I've heard Ian Paisley Junior and Arlene Foster trying to dubiously rely on it during debates in recent months and weeks. Edwin Poots even threw it out there without further clarification as to whatever the hell he meant by it on last night's Nolan Live (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08hznbs/nolan-live-series-9-episode-4).

But what does it actually mean? It's a vague and ambiguous term that's just thrown about to fill the void of cluelessness. There's been next to no detail offered by the proponents of this "technology" model. How exactly will "technology" be able to monitor/check individual truck trailers, car boots and haulage/transport documents whilst simultaneously ensuring that there is a "soft" or "frictionless" border, as has been promised?

And Davis can only speak from an internal UK perspective, so he's in absolutely no position to be giving guarantees for a "soft" border when reality is saying otherwise. He has no idea what sort of barriers and checks the EU will wish to place on the southern side of the Irish border in order to protect the political and economic integrity of the EU.

Furthermore, unmanned "technology" (if it's even possible/viable in the first place) will be like a sitting duck for potential saboteurs objecting to the inconvenience, sense of separation/division and threat to privacy that incendiary and disruptive customs, border controls and/or security installations will cause in their border communities. And there will be plenty of potential and willing saboteurs.

See the video here of a border community mobilising to remove a divisive reinforced concrete block from an "unapproved road" in the mid-1990s: https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85/status/715562289361985538

Such blocks were positioned along dozens of minor border roads and bridges by the British army during the "Troubles" when they weren't blowing them up (http://www.borderroadmemories.com/images/bc116/then/bc116_img016_large.jpg) or getting involved in armed border stand-offs with the Irish state army (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xfFOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2wEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7126,4901821).

If present-day border communities decide to take similar undermining, disobedient and subversive action in a post-Brexit scenario against any newly-established infrastructure that will hit local economies, livelihoods and ways of life hard, I could hardly blame them. Jaysis, I might even join them myself! :soldier:

"Technology" will thus require 24-hour manned - possibly even armed - protection, which will, in turn, offer further sitting-duck targets for those malcontents who might be prepared to go one step further than non-violent direct action and civil disobedience/resistance in their battle against the border.

The Norway-Sweden analogy won't even apply to the Irish border considering the UK is leaving the single market; both Norway and Sweden are party to the single market agreement and are also signatories of Schengen, so it's a totally different set of circumstances.

Brexiteers also frequently claim that the Common Travel Area will continue to exist without issue on the entirely suspect basis that it existed before both the UK and Ireland joined the EEC/EC/EU, but this ignores a rather crucial fact; at no time have Ireland and the UK ever been on opposite sides of the EU's border. They've always been either both on the outside or both on the inside, but Brexit will change that for the first time, whereafter the Irish state will find itself still on the inside with Brexit UK having moved to the outside.

The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.

I take it you aren't convinced.

[BonnieShels]

Interesting article on RTÉ. The article itself is pretty dire and lightweight, but it's interesting that it is being discussed. Reunification is now a topic that's just going to keep being talked about.

I like.



David Murphy: Reunification won't be easy
There has been increasing debate about reunification as a hard Brexit looks far more likely.

Leaving the politics aside, from the point of view of economics and particularly trade there are big hurdles.

Those challenges have become even more daunting with the prospect of a hard Brexit, not less so.

The North is running a deficit of £9.2 billion (€10.5 billion) per annum according to its Department of Finance.

That is the gap between what it collects in taxes and what it spends. It is met by funding from Britain.

That compares with a deficit of €1.2 billion in the Republic in 2017.

Obviously if there was a 32-county Republic it would need financial support, possibly from the EU and Britain, to make reunification work.

None of that is new but what has changed is the prospect of the UK leaving the EU’s Customs Union, which allows for tariff-free trade between member countries.


That means levies would be imposed on goods and services travelling to and from Britain.

Crucial to this consideration is this question: Where are the main export destinations for firms based in Northern Ireland?

Figures from the Department of the Economy in the North for 2015 show sales (or exports) to Britain were £13.8 billion (€15.9 billion), exports to the Republic were £3.4 billion (€3.9 billion), while exports to the rest of the EU were £1.9 billion (€2.1 billion).

In a nutshell, firms in the North are far more dependent on selling to Britain than companies in the Republic.

A reunified Ireland would be inside the Customs Union with the border into the EU running the length of the Irish Sea.

However, the firms in the North that had been dependent on exporting to Britain would find tariffs imposed on their exports to post-Brexit Britain.

Those companies would need significant amounts of aid to survive and find new markets elsewhere.

So not only would the 32-county state struggle with the existing deficit in the North, it would also face the mammoth task of re-orientating the exporting sector in the six counties.

Reunification is a bit like Brexit itself, it is the complicated details that tend to be overlooked.



http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0316/860400-david-murphy-reunification-wont-be-easy/

[DannyInvincible]

I take it you aren't convinced.

Heh, no, not quite. Could you tell? :)

I don't tend to believe much that emanates from the mouths of (self-)serving Tories. So-called "liberals" and "right-thinking" people blame Trump for the supposedly-new phenomenon of "fake news", but haven't people heard of propaganda - or of its modern-day variant (since pervasive questionable and sinister usage by the US's Creel Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Public_Information) during World War I, by the UK's Ministry of Information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Information_(United_Kingdom)) during both World Wars and by the Nazis before and during World War II led to a heavy tarnishing of the once-neutral term "propaganda"), public relations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays#Propaganda) - which has existed and been moulding/distorting public consciousness/perception/understanding/discourse since time immemorial? We even have the term "perception management (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management)" now too. All very Orwellian and Machiavellian...

The Tories are pastmasters at it. Think of Jeremy Hunt recently lying and manipulating studies, facts and figures to promote his blatant anti-NHS agenda, for example, just to single one of them out. He's so insincere, he even wears an NHS badge on his lapel! It's clear overcompensation, or a twee little facade behind which he conceals his ultimate privatisation designs, in other words.

[The Fly]

The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.

Brexit is a very welcome thing imo.

[DannyInvincible]

Brexit is a very welcome thing imo.

The inconvenience and hardship that Brexit will inflict upon Ireland and especially those in the border regions may well drive people to look for an alternative constitutional arrangement, so it may help the cause of Irish unity in the long run - which would undoubtedly be a silver lining and makes the whole thing a bit of a curate's egg in a way - but it will be disastrous in the short-term.

Do you think it's a very welcome thing as it enhances the likelihood of unity or do you envisage other benefits?

[The Fly]

The inconvenience and hardship that Brexit will inflict upon Ireland and especially those in the border regions may well drive people to look for an alternative constitutional arrangement, so it may help the cause of Irish unity in the long run - which would undoubtedly be a silver lining and makes the whole thing a bit of a curate's egg in a way - but it will be disastrous in the short-term.

Do you think it's a very welcome thing as it enhances the likelihood of unity or do you envisage other benefits?

Although I ultimately believe that Brexit will prove to be an act of great self-harm for the UK state, the primary motivation I had in voting Remain was to contribute to a probable Remain majority in NI. In the event of the Leave vote winning the referendum, this, together with a similar majority Remain result in Scotland, would lead to some measure of constitutional crisis thus enhancing the likelihood of Irish unity as you say.

So, in that sense I'm not sure a curate's egg is the most apt description for me as that would pertain to something partly good but mostly bad.

Don't forget that it's because of Brexit that the whole question of unity has been pushed to the forefront of public discourse in a way that it has never been before, and it's the Southern engagement with it that is more significant than any awakening of the nationalist population from their slumber in the long grass of NI.

The cherry on top is that this has all preceded the inevitable border poll call that will arise from the result of the next NI census.

[backstothewall]

England's difficulty is still Ireland's opportunity

[CraftyToePoke]

Reunification is now a topic that's just going to keep being talked about.

From the Irish Times this week also.


A united Ireland – is there something in the air?
Key figures from both sides of the peace line have their say on the notion of Irish unity


Brexit, demographic shifts and the dramatic outcome of the Northern Assembly elections are all fuelling talk of a united Ireland, a Border poll and joint authority.
Many unionists are nervous and in some cases spooked by the election results, fearing Sinn Féin’s success in coming within one seat of the DUP and the implications of losing their overall Stormont majority.
Billy Hutchinson, leader of the Progressive Unionist Party, which is linked to the Ulster Volunteer Force, acknowledges that anxiety. Still, he insists that unifications is not even relatively imminent.
“With nationalism, it’s a bit like St Augustine: wrap the green flag around me, but not just yet,” he tells The Irish Times: “It won’t happen in my lifetime.” Hutchinson is just short of his 62nd birthday.
Other opinions vary wildly. Nationalists such as SDLP leader Colum Eastwood and writer and former Sinn Féin publicity guru Danny Morrison believe change is coming, and that it can happen without frightening unionists.
Meanwhile, unionists such as Raymond McCord, whose son was killed by the UVF, and the Democratic Unionist Party’s Gregory Campbell say the union can be defended by good sense and pragmatic diplomacy.
On the other hand, socialist and republican Bernadette McAliskey, once a youthful, outspoken MP in the House of Commons, would like to see unity, but not under the current administrations. She recalls a famous quote from another republican, Brendan Behan: “I can think of no state of human misery that could not be made instantly worse by the arrival on the scene of a policeman.”
Paraphrasing, McAliskey says: “I can think of no state of human misery, either North or South of the Border, at this juncture, that would not be made immeasurably worse by putting the idiots that are running the two sides together in the one state.”

Nonetheless, unity is a live issue after the Northern election. It was already in the air due to population changes and the Brexit vote, the latter raising concerns about Border customs posts, despite assurances to the contrary.
The UK departure from the EU also creates the possibility of a second independence referendum in Scotland, where a vote to leave Britain could cause a domino effect across the north channel.
In the 2011 census, 48 per cent (864,000) of the North’s 1.8 million people originated from Protestant households. Those from Catholic households accounted for 45 per cent (810,000) – a gap of 54,000.
However, just one in four said they saw themselves as exclusively Irish; 21 per cent considered themselves Northern Irish only. Moreover, polls in recent years have found pro-unity opinion to be as low as 13 per cent.
Opinion has now shifted. A nationalist conviction that it was disrespected by the DUP and its leader, Arlene Foster, triggered an emotional and voting response, leaving unionists with less than a 1,200 voting majority.
All these facts and figures play in the minds of those who fret or dream about a united Ireland. The Rev Mervyn Gibson, grand secretary of the Orange Order, says “the election has been a wake-up call for unionism”.
Debate about a united Ireland “will just add to our mistrust and panic”, he says, while the unionist hold on just 40 of Stormont’s seats will be seen as a progression, as a “journey down the road” towards unification.
Nevertheless, Gibson says “the numbers will still come out all right for the United Kingdom” in a Border poll, dismissing the belief that unionists might be financially enticed by the possible economic benefits of unification.
“I think it is insulting. It’s like saying to Irish nationalists, can we buy you back into the Commonwealth? I am a unionist; that is my birthright. It’s not something I sell, buy, or trade,” he said.

However, he went on to cast a warning: “An unsettled community that sees itself as being railroaded into something is a dangerous place for that community to be.”

Billy Hutchinson believes the nationalist vote surge was not for a united Ireland, but rather to discipline the DUP and Foster. Unionists need “to be more inclusive, they need to make this a friendly place for everybody, including middle-class Catholics”.
He warns against anyone even raising the idea of loyalist paramilitaries responding violently to the prospect of “a nation once again”: “We need to be careful. Don’t even talk about it. There is no violence there.”
If Foster was critised for stirring up nationalists with her “don’t feed the crocodiles” comment, then Gregory Campbell, the DUP’s East Derry MP, was accused of preparing the ground with his “curry my yogurt” lampooning of the Irish language – or, as he would have it, his sardonic take on Sinn Féin’s “abuse” of the Irish language.
In terms of the DUP supposedly showing disrespect to nationalists, Campbell argues that Sinn Féin exploited the “mopery” phenomenon – MOPE being an acronym for republicans characterising themselves as the “most oppressed people ever”.
He calls Brexit and especially the election “a shock to the unionist body politic . There is going to be a lot of uncertainty over coming years.”
Still, “if unionism used its collective head, it could turn that threat into an opportunity to make unionism even more viable.” Campbell says that could involve a “realignment of unionism, not necessarily into one single party”, but closer cooperation between the different shades.
Unionists must make the union welcoming, for those who think the union is a good idea, but don’t readily identify with it”, he says. If done “ properly and appropriately”, he believes 70 per cent would vote to remain in the union in any Border poll.

“It is not a question of unionism divesting itself of direct, robust approaches and becoming a sort of a unionist-lite. It is a case of unionism explaining that its values don’t all have to be wrapped in a Union Jack. It is not just about wearing an Orange collarette on the Twelfth of July – and I do all of that. It has to be seen to be more than that.
The union project
“In my view,” Campbell adds, “unionism can more readily and more successfully sell the union project to Irish nationalists or Catholics or people who would not be identified as unionists than Irish republicans will be able to sell Irish unity to people who regard themselves as unionists.”

Raymond McCord, a victims’ campaigner and anti-Brexiteer, accuses Sinn Féin of over-playing its hand. “I don’t want a united Ireland. I think Gerry Adams is doing to unionism what Arlene Foster has done to nationalism and republicanism by his comments and his demands. I think he is helping unionism to jell.”
Before the election, McCord says he was quite anti-DUP and believed Foster should stand aside as first minister. But now he says she should not budge an inch, although she should take a softer line and show respect to nationalism.
Chatting post-election to family members in his native loyalist Tiger’s Bay in north Belfast, McCord says he was struck by a new mood – one that mirrors the mood of nationalism before the election.
“Protestant people feel their noses are getting rubbed in it by nationalists and republicans,” he says. “The unionist people won’t be bought. The economic argument won’t wash.
“We have all come through good times and bad times; we are not going to starve. And you know one thing: we are no better than the nationalist people but we are a proud people, and we are not going to hand something over that we have held onto for so long,” he declared.
On the nationalist side, Colum Eastwood says there is no “constitutional certainty” about the future of the UK. “What is going on in Scotland, what is going on with Brexit means that there is now a potential to make a very positive case for a united Ireland. I think for the first time in a lifetime we can see the prospect of a united Ireland within our grasp.”
Such talk should not scare loyalists back to violence because nationalism should have the wit to manage any change. “This has to be done in a way that understands that we have different traditions here, that understands that people are British who live in Ireland. And that has to be respected in the same way we would like our Irishness while we remain part of the United Kingdom to be respected.”
Eastwood sees a continuation of devolution within a united Ireland. “There would have to be some recognition for the fact that the North has grown up differently, and that our view would be that there would have to be a Northern assembly and an executive as well.”

[CraftyToePoke]

Bernadette McAliskey is far from convinced by constitutional reconfiguration. “No, things have not changed utterly, they have not changed at all. There is no threat to the union,” asserts the civil rights veteran. “We are in more danger of the Free State coming back into the Commonwealth with an apology note.”
McAliskey says a Border poll would have no chance and that some of the old-school, non-Sinn Féin republicans might boycott the plebiscite rather than vote for unity . “I would not ask a dog to live in the existing Irish Republic,” she says. “So why would I vote to live in it?”

Neither is McAliskey happy with notions that Nationalists can “breed” their way to unity. Instead, she predicts the DUP response to the election will not be to “reach out to Sinn Féin but to swallow the Ulster Unionist Party”.
“It is forward to the past, it’s back to having one single unionist party. Which is what we had when this state was created, which is what we had when the state was sustained, and which is what we need now when the state will fall apart - that is the DUP thinking.”
Like McAliskey, Breandán Mac Cionnaith, national vice-chairman of Éirígí, says he is “not getting carried away” by the elections. He too believes that unionism will regroup: “I would not call it on the basis of one election; we will see changes to unionism.”
Éirígí, a socialist, republican group, tends to be at odds with Sinn Féin. Mac Cionnaith, who was the main nationalist spokesman during the annual Drumcree parading protests and stand-off in the 1990s, would like to see an all-Ireland Border poll, but also a poll in Britain, which, he believes, “wants shut of the place”.
Though saying that he cannot provide any insight into dissident republican thinking, Mac Cionnaith venture that the election results might give Sinn Féin food for thought. “I think people have to reassess their position in the light of changing circumstances across all of Ireland.”
Republican activist Danny Morrison, who coined the phrase an “Armalite in one hand, a ballot box in the other”, says he is more taken with Brexit than the election result.

Border incident
“It is extremely dangerous,” Morrison says of Brexit. “The PSNI have already stated that they don’t want to be involved in policing the Border. They know that the relationship that has been carefully wrought and built up over the last 10 years could be destroyed overnight by a Border incident.”
Morrison tweeted against republican triumphalism and says any debate about unity should consider options such as a 32-county state, or a federal or confederal Ireland. “A united Ireland in old terms was a unitary government from Dublin, but I think we have to be more imaginative in terms of the stages that we go through,” he says.
He seems content with the principle of no alteration to the status of Northern Ireland without the consent of a majority: “I don’t want to frighten unionists or alarm unionists. I think if everybody is transparent about what they are doing at each stage of the development, then we can have a rational conversation here.”
Morrison says he suspects that if a majority voted for unity, then a majority of unionists “will go along with it” although others might push for repartition.
“I think the prospects [for unity] have increased as long as things are done at a pace that people are comfortable with and people understand what you are doing, why you are doing it, where you are coming from, where you are going to.”


Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/a-united-ireland-is-there-something-in-the-air-1.3007271

[CraftyToePoke]

Different article, but getting plenty coverage.




Nationalists have learned little over the last 100 years
By using Brexit to campaign for a united Ireland nationalism has repeated an old mistake

John Hume: spent his political life trying to convince everybody that territorial unity is not what matters but unity between people

The emerging campaign for a united Ireland, led by Sinn Féin and tamely followed by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, indicates that Irish nationalism has learned nothing from the events of the past 100 years.
If history tells us anything it is that the one way to ensure a united Ireland does not come reality is for a pan-nationalist front to demand its implementation.
John Redmond’s campaign for Home Rule foundered at the final hurdle because he underestimated the depth of Ulster unionist resistance until too late in the day. His belated attempt to accommodate it destroyed his authority over nationalist Ireland.
Irish republicans went one better and refused to recognise that Ulster unionism posed any kind of obstacle to an Irish Republic. That blindness made partition inevitable and copper-fastened it for a century
A fascinating seminar on the Mansion House last weekend, organised by the Collins Griffith Society, heard from historians how Redmond’s Irish Party was dealt a fatal blow at the South Longford byelection of 1917 for even considering a temporary form of partition.

The irony is that the Sinn Féin victors in that byelection, who denounced Redmond for his moderation, effectively ensured that partition would become a reality with the hardest of hard Borders between the two parts of the island.
In the intervening century nationalism has regrouped at regular intervals to campaign for a united Ireland and on each occasion has only succeeded in reinforcing the strength of unionist opposition to it.

A depressing aspect of successive nationalist campaigns down the years is that they have usually had more to do with internal party competition in the Republic than any genuine attempt to address the complex issues involved.
The issue is back on the agenda thanks to Brexit although Sinn Féin was already agitating for a united Ireland even before last summer’s referendum in the United Kingdom.

There is no doubt that Brexit has put the future of the UK into the melting pot. The arrogance and stupidity of the Conservative Party, which did so much to make the process of Irish independence bitter and violent 100 years ago, has now put the future of the entire UK at risk.
Scottish independence is back on the agenda thanks to Theresa May’s handling of the Brexit process. The future of Northern Ireland was bound to come up for discussion given that a majority of people in the region, like their Scottish counterparts, voted to remain in the European Union.
However, by moving immediately to campaign for a united Ireland nationalism has repeated the old mistake of underestimating the depth of unionist feeling. The louder the demand for a united Ireland the stronger unionist resistance will become.
On a practical level there are two massive problems. One is the €10 billion a year subsidy from the British exchequer to Northern Ireland and how that is going to be replaced without wrecking the economy of the entire island.
The second and even more serious problem is that, even if at some point there is a majority in the North for unity, there would still be resistance and possibly violent resistance from a significant loyalist minority. The prospect of loyalist terrorism against an Irish State struggling with the massive economic shock of unity is a terrifying prospect.
While it is possible that, in time, a significant segment of Ulster unionism might reassess its traditional loyalties, in the light of the indifference with which the British government has for its welfare, pushing for a united Ireland will only delay that day.

Belfast Agreement
John Hume spent his political life trying to convince everybody that territorial unity is not what matters but unity between people. The Belfast Agreement was designed around Hume’s vision of creating a society in which both unionist and nationalist traditions could live together in harmony.
That agreement has succeeded in bringing peace to the island but sadly the harmony between the two communities in the North that powersharing was designed to foster has been slow to emerge over the past 20 years.
The result of the recent Stormont election showed some thawing between moderate voters from the SDLP and the UUP but the DUP and Sinn Féin remain as the powerful big parties on either side of the sectarian divide.
The chances of some accommodation between them will be hindered rather than helped by the campaign for a united Ireland even though the only feasible route to unity is for the two communities in the North to find a way of working together as a first step.
The only united Ireland worth having is one that comes about because the people of the North want it. Down the line it is very possible that Brexit and the possible break-up of the UK could lead to a fundamental reassessment by both communities in the North about where their future interests lie.
The Government and the other parties in the Dáil should stop playing games about which of them has the best nationalist credentials and instead focus on overcoming the real challenges of Brexit so that in time this State will be a place that both communities in the North will want to join.

Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/nationalists-have-learned-little-over-the-last-100-years-1.3011696

[DannyInvincible]

John McGowan discusses the economic failure of the northern statelet and the solution presented by the prospect of Irish unity: https://www.derrynow.com/news/united-ireland-good-economy/151164


...

People in the North of Ireland would clearly benefit financially within any structure which creates an economic union within a new Ireland.

I stress the word "new" because assuming we just hook on like a piece of Lego and everything remains the same as it is now is wrong.

In any reunification, the new political dynamic would mean a completely new political class and one that is no longer driven by two parties with power bases firmly in Dublin.

The old economic powerhouse of the island, Belfast, would be back in play.

Remember that prior to partition, Belfast and its surrounding area accounted for 80% of all the economic output on this island of Ireland.

How times have changed.

We can discuss that later.

First let us consider the challenge.

A lot of people point to the size of the block grant we get from Westminster.

This produces figures from £10bn to £3bn as the cost to run NI.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Sceptics are quick to say that any reunification of Ireland would result in this burden being passed to the ROI government.

This is a totally narrow and erroneous view.

In any scenario of a united Ireland, the U.K. Government couldn't simply walk away.

There would be a period of up to 10 years where they and the EU (they did for East Germany) would plug any exchequer gaps.

This period could realistically extend to 15-20 years.

This would dramatically reduce any burden to the ROI taxpayer and can be subsidised by additional GDP growth in the medium to long term.

The reality is an EU/international intervention would surely follow any decision to reunite.

Don't be fooled by naysayers and bar room economists who say "we cost too much".

A period of readjustment might be a little painful as we move from an economy low on innovation and high in public sector employment.

The upside however, is higher paid jobs and better futures for our kids.

Economic policy in the North is failing and has failed for 90 years.

Household income is 12% lower in NI than it was in 2007.

We have had a decade of zero GDP growth and prior to that we had growth less than half that of the ROI.

The Institute of Financial Affairs (IFS) announced this week that UK living standards are the worst in 60 years and that people will be 20% worse off by 2021.

In reality, our GDP in a good year is never more than half that of the ROI.

Failure to address this will mean an island not separated by a border post Brexit, but by clear wealth disparity.

The ROI recorded 5.2% GDP growth in 2016 and if it keeps doing this, the gap between both economies will become huge.

We really need to wake up to the economic failure of the North and the potential job killer that Brexit can be.

In 2016 the ROI decreased unemployment by 40,000.

In Dublin, they are planning to build 136 new office buildings over the next 5 years totalling over 12 million square feet and these will house 100,000 workers.

Already, 35 of these are under way and these will house 30,000 workers.

Remember, in Derry we have just over 6,000 unemployed people.

Add to these impressive build figures the fact that the IDA had 102 new foreign investment enquiries in 2016 and being part of that economy becomes a no brainier.

It is also worth noting that 9 out of 10 top companies in the world's top 5 business sectors are based in ROI.

I could blind you with loads of statistics and figures but the reality is that NI has tried 90 years of economic policy driven from Westminster and delivered here on the ground by various organisations.

We have, each decade, lost ground on not just the rest of Ireland but also on regions in the U.K. NI currently tops a lot of tables looking at regional disparities.

We are simply becoming poorer and the job of attracting FDI has always been difficult but post Brexit will become virtually impossible.

It is a classic case of "death by a thousand cuts".

As every region within the UK attempts to grapple with life post Brexit, I feel getting our voice heard in London will be even more difficult.

Pumping huge sums of money in to NI is not going to get any party huge numbers of seats in Westminster.

We are in a battle for resources and Investment and up against many cities in the UK better positioned than NI.

In my opinion (and I have said this many times), the economy of NI has failed.

It has failed, not out of effort but, due to policy and the inability to adapt to a changing world.

A united Ireland would not only revitalise the economy of the North, it would totally transform it.

Dependency on the public sector would wane within a decade.

Unemployment would drop and our kids could enjoy the many employment opportunities that it would bring.

I am talking purely economics here folks and not making a political statement.

Belfast would be transformed and would become the economic powerhouse it used to be.

Its population could increase by 100,000 in 15 years taking it back to where it was in 1920 when it was the biggest city in Ireland.

This is about jobs and prosperity. We would be better off and yes, the ROI over a 10-15 year transition period could definitely afford to join with the North.

As I said the EU and UK would have an obligation to assist.

One last example of growth in the ROI which amazes me - I look at a website in Dublin which counts monthly the number of tall cranes on the skyline as a barometer of economic activity.

In Feb 2016, Justin Comiskey posted there was 34. A very impressive amount. In March 2016 Odlum833 posted there was now 44.

On 1st March 2017, there was 65 tall cranes in Dublin. This is growth. This shows an economy growing and building office space to employ the young people of the future.

No one needs to feel threatened by this desire for economic integration.

No one needs to exchange their passport or citizenship.

It's purely economics and I want all the young people of NI growing up and having the chance to get one of these jobs in the offices that these 69 cranes are building.

I also want 10 of these cranes polluting the skyline in Derry creating jobs for all the people who live here.

Is that politics or economics?

[CraftyToePoke]

But would Dublin willingly share these tower cranes etc around ? :)

You often hear griping on Dublin centered thinking and this would have to be addressed to a point where people trust it, particularly if the UK / EU are financing a transition meanwhile. The below, (although I accept is more layered & complex than the quoted part) did result in a swing to Dublin, which was of course seen as nothing but the same old story re Dublin in certain quarters Shannonside & the west generally, particularly with an eye on the key tourism spend in that part of the world upon which so many depend.


During the transition period, the ratio of Dublin/Shannon flights will change from 1:1 to 3:1, so that for every one flight to or from Shannon an airline may provide three flights to or from Dublin.

Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/shannon-stopover-to-be-phased-out-by-2008-1.1184691

[culloty82]

Posters may be interested in "The Rule of the Land" about Garret Carr's journey along the Border - currently available as a podcast on the BBC Radio Player, and the book is also out now.

[Gather round]

Interesting stuff linked above.

I've just finished reading Kevin Meagher's book 'Why a United Ireland is inevitable'. It's well-argued on British disinterest and NI's structural economic weaknesses, less so on how scrapping the border will end the latter, and most significantly of all how you sell the idea to Unionists and others prepared to tolerate staying in the UK. He does point out that the NI party keenest on equal business tax rates across Ireland is actually the DUP, before describing Arlene Foster as an 'archpragmatist' ;)

[Wolfman]

I've just finished reading Kevin Meagher's book 'Why a United Ireland is inevitable'. It's well-argued on British disinterest and NI's structural economic weaknesses, less so on how scrapping the border will end the latter, and most significantly of all how you sell the idea to Unionists and others prepared to tolerate staying in the UK.

Even if he had have done, doubtless it wouldn't have been enough to satisfy the sceptics. And most 'diehard unionists' via SM claim they can't be bought at any price.
Begrudgingly I almost acknowledge their stubborness/stupidity?
Almost.

[Wolfman]

RIP Martin.
(https://www.donegalnow.com/news/death-martin-mcguinness-tributes-ian-paisleys-family-former-deputy-first-minister-2/151869)

[DannyInvincible]

RIP Martin.
(https://www.donegalnow.com/news/death-martin-mcguinness-tributes-ian-paisleys-family-former-deputy-first-minister-2/151869)

Martin McGuinness was the embodiment of the peace process. Another big loss in the space of only a few days for the community in Derry after the death of Ryan McBride on Sunday.