English or Irish? The 2nd Gen question

[robbie_B]

Hello all,

This is a recent piece I wrote for The Irish Post - thought some of you might identify with my experience.

All feedback welcome - @RobBrennan82

COYBIG - http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/am-i-english-or-irish-the-second-generation-question

[ArdeeBhoy]

At a guess, they might want this to go into the Eligibility thread...

[zero]

nice article.

as an irish born person living in london, it resonates - particularly because i'm (well HERSELF) is of an age where children are mentioned as being on the agenda in the short to medium term. she won't go back to ireland for me so if i do have any they may be in your situation.

reading your piece makes me think that maybe it won't be so bad.

[paul_oshea]

robbie long time no see on this. I referenced this article in another thread, but its a great read.

[Murfinator]

I'll refrain from commenting on your article since it'll probably offend a lot of people but I'll say that there is a great deal of difference between English/American Irish and Irish. The problems and offence is caused when the former confuse themselves for the latter.
As I've said before I would consider a Polish man living, working and contributing to Ireland more Irish than Fintan O'Grady wearing a shamrock shirt in a New York Irish bar.
Stuff like Ryan Tubridy the other night saying "welcome home" to Tom Cruise is a real pathetic and cringeworthy side of an old Irish culture element that will hopefully die out.

[DannyInvincible]

Read the article when Paul posted it up and thought it a good read.


I'll refrain from commenting on your article since it'll probably offend a lot of people

Why would you let that stop you now?


... but I'll say that there is a great deal of difference between English/American Irish and Irish. The problems and offence is caused when the former confuse themselves for the latter.
As I've said before I would consider a Polish man living, working and contributing to Ireland more Irish than Fintan O'Grady wearing a shamrock shirt in a New York Irish bar.
Stuff like Ryan Tubridy the other night saying "welcome home" to Tom Cruise is a real pathetic and cringeworthy side of an old Irish culture element that will hopefully die out.

Granted, the Tom Cruise circus was a bit silly, but, essentially, what you're saying is that Irishness (or your notion of it, even) is primarily an identity of economic service rather than one of culture and tradition?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha, nice summary Danny.

[geysir]

As I've said before I would consider a Polish man living, working and contributing to Ireland more Irish than Fintan O'Grady wearing a shamrock shirt in a New York Irish bar.

I would accept and respect what the Polish man considers himself to be, before throwing a cringeworthy identity insult in his direction.

[Bungle]

I'll refrain from commenting on your article since it'll probably offend a lot of people but I'll say that there is a great deal of difference between English/American Irish and Irish. The problems and offence is caused when the former confuse themselves for the latter.
As I've said before I would consider a Polish man living, working and contributing to Ireland more Irish than Fintan O'Grady wearing a shamrock shirt in a New York Irish bar.
Stuff like Ryan Tubridy the other night saying "welcome home" to Tom Cruise is a real pathetic and cringeworthy side of an old Irish culture element that will hopefully die out.

So do you consider that Polish man more Irish than Kevin Kilbane or Gary Breen?

Having lived in England, I had first hand experience of the Irish diaspora. The London and Birmingham Irish were every bit as Irish as I was. They had great pride in their culture and could put some Irish born to shame. I knew of at least 2 lads in Shepherd's Bush that turned down schoolboy caps with England to play for Ireland. Try telling those fellas that they aren't Irish :)

I also lived in Liverpool, a city so Irish that it is jokingly called the " real capital of Ireland", even if much of the immigration there was many years ago. I was there when Ray Houghton scored against England in Euro 88 and you could have just as easily been in a pub in Dublin. Literally every person was going as mental as I was and this was a random Scouse pub, not one of those themed pubs.

In the coming years, there are going to be a few footballers born to Irish parents abroad, like there has been in previous generations. Who are we to judge them as not Irish.

Agree that the Tom Cruise interview was cringeworthy!!

[Bottle of Tonic]

Agree with much of the sentiment here. I've been in the UK over 12 years now, mainly Scotland, but some time in the midlands and NE of England. I have the utmost respect for the 2nd gen(and further) Brit-born Irish that feel a connection to the country. Never these days would I consider them any less Irish than Irish-born.

[Paddy Garcia]

As I've said before I would consider a Polish man living, working and contributing to Ireland more Irish than Fintan O'Grady wearing a shamrock shirt in a New York Irish bar.


Call him up so............

[Stuttgart88]

What if Fintan O'Grady was on holidays in New York?

[SkStu]

Robbie,

I read the article when Paul posted it a couple of weeks ago and i enjoyed reading it but there was a couple of things in there that, to be honest, p!ssed me off!!


The thing that amazes me with some Irish people is how quick they are to claim us English-born Irish as their own when they help Ireland qualify for the World Cup, or become one of the biggest bands in the world as the Gallagher brothers did with Oasis.

Success brings acceptance, but we – the non-famous members of the second generation – will never be as Irish as those born and raised on the auld sod.

I think that is way, way off. I think that is nothing more than 2G insecurity about how they are perceived in Ireland. I do not think it is the reality at all. Certainly not in the circles i grew up in. I firmly believe that once a 2 or 3G irish person feels Irish and displays pride in their Irishness, then they are welcomed by Irish-born Irish as one of their own.

[robbie_B]

Some interesting views on this thread.There is a follow up news story to this article in The Irish Post tomorrow - Wednesday, April 10th.

'Plastic Paddy'

Cheers,

Rob
@RobBrennan82
@theirishpost
@IrishPostSport
@WestLondonSport

[DannyInvincible]

So do you consider that Polish man more Irish than Kevin Kilbane or Gary Breen?

And what about ex-pats/those born in Ireland but living abroad/those born in the north? Are they/we somehow less Irish too because we're not "living [in], working [in] and [directly] contributing to Ireland"? It is possible to contribute to Ireland and Irishness in many ways; contributing through economic means is just one way amongst many.

[paul_oshea]

Robbie,

I read the article when Paul posted it a couple of weeks ago and i enjoyed reading it but there was a couple of things in there that, to be honest, p!ssed me off!!



I think that is way, way off. I think that is nothing more than 2G insecurity about how they are perceived in Ireland. I do not think it is the reality at all. Certainly not in the circles i grew up in. I firmly believe that once a 2 or 3G irish person feels Irish and displays pride in their Irishness, then they are welcomed by Irish-born Irish as one of their own.

I think it depends where you grow up. I know a lad who moved over from Enfield in North London when he was 9 or 10 and he had an awful time back home, and he is back here in London since about 18. I reckon the west of ireland which actually had a huge amount of people emigrate, which is rather ironic, would be one of the worst offenders of this. I think its down to ignorance/naivety to be honest.

[DannyInvincible]

I think that is way, way off. I think that is nothing more than 2G insecurity about how they are perceived in Ireland. I do not think it is the reality at all. Certainly not in the circles i grew up in. I firmly believe that once a 2 or 3G irish person feels Irish and displays pride in their Irishness, then they are welcomed by Irish-born Irish as one of their own.

Good point. Is "plastic Paddy" bashing really as bad as is often made out? I'm not so sure it is. I think most Irish people cherish the diaspora.

[Macy]

I think that is way, way off. I think that is nothing more than 2G insecurity about how they are perceived in Ireland. I do not think it is the reality at all. Certainly not in the circles i grew up in. I firmly believe that once a 2 or 3G irish person feels Irish and displays pride in their Irishness, then they are welcomed by Irish-born Irish as one of their own.
Not so sure on that. From being born in England, coming back several times every year and eventually moving "home", there was definitely a change during the height of celtic tiger. I had it thrown at me a couple of times that "sure, it's cool to be Irish now", even by gobsh1tes who I'd known since I was a nipper from coming over. Might not be the same degree now it might be perceived to be less cool I suppose, and people that brought into the bubble so much have been knocked down a peg or two.

I read the article a couple of days ago, and found it interesting and thought provoking. Growing up going to mainly Catholic schools, there were many of us that were 2G's, but there was a pretty diverse feeling of "Irishness"/ identifying themselves as Irish to be honest.

In the context of football, I still believe there is a difference the likes of Kevin Kilbane and players that never had any real connection to the state/country. They may qualify through the same rules, but that doesn't make them the same.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Is "plastic Paddy" bashing really as bad as is often made out? I'm not so sure it is. I think most Irish people cherish the diaspora.

Dunno, some QPR heads I know in Sweden were negatively referred to by some gobsh*te which was almost enough to provoke a minor scuffle...

And those sorts of incidents have happened regularly enough, albeit from a tiny minority. But then again have met the odd racist fool also, but these people are usually told where to go...

[DannyInvincible]

Dunno, some QPR heads I know in Sweden were negatively referred to by some gobsh*te which was almost enough to provoke a minor scuffle...

That's just one idiot. How did (Irish) onlookers respond?

[Gather round]

I have the utmost respect for the 2nd gen(and further) Brit-born Irish that feel a connection to the country. Never these days would I consider them any less Irish than Irish-born

That's fine, but almost anyone can feel a connection. Not just the 70 million with notional Irish ancestry, but anyone who drinks a green pint on Paddy's Day. It's Oirishness as lifestyle choice.

There's a spectrum, with people who live in, pay taxes, use services and vote in the Republic at one end, and those once-annually craicsters at the other. With immigrant workers, their non-citizen Irish-born children, Nordies, Unionists, emigrants forced out for work, and the Cruiser or Obama's great-granny who sailed on the Mayoflower in 1690 or 1845 somewhere in between. The problem is often when one of the middle groups starts bickering with another. Why can't we all stop that and have a sing-song?

[ArdeeBhoy]

One of the QPR lads wanted to go ahead with this eejit, we stopped him but then the originator got a clip round the head as he was leaving.
Not even handbags.

[ArdeeBhoy]

There's a spectrum, with people who live in, pay taxes, use services and vote in the Republic at one end, and those once-annually craicsters at the other. With immigrant workers, their non-citizen Irish-born children, Nordies, Unionists, emigrants forced out for work, and the Cruiser or Obama's great-granny who sailed on the Mayoflower in 1690 or 1845 somewhere in between. The problem is often when one of the middle groups starts bickering with another. Why can't we all stop that and have a sing-song?

Except most unionists (Not you/NB) don't 'want' to be Irish or even admit a connection, whilst a good no. of songs, on all sides, are rather inflammatory on the matter...

[DannyInvincible]

Why can't we all stop that and have a sing-song?

On the One Road? :p

[Gather round]

Maybe a medley with the Road to Nowhere?

[ArdeeBhoy]

That could be the North's new 'anthem'...