Irish Football Blog

[CraftyToePoke]

Pretty spot on, all of it.

[Drumcondra 69er]

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2018/11/a-tale-of-three-irelands.html

Really couldn't have been arsed writing about that sh1tshow last night but had a few thoughts on how things may or may not have developed had there never been an IFA / FAI split back in the 20s...

[Gather round]

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2018/11/a-tale-of-three-irelands.html

Really couldn't have been arsed writing about that sh1tshow last night but had a few thoughts on how things may or may not have developed had there never been an IFA / FAI split back in the 20s...

I can remember football only back to the early 70s...


A gentleman's agreement between both sides not to pick players from outside each jurisdiction meant that relations were relatively benign and there were even talks throughout the seventies while the troubles were at their height where reunification was on the agenda

Evidence? "Talks" implies some formaility, agenda, press statement afterwards- that sort of thing. I don't remember any of those appearing, at the time or since


Even George Best went on the record, stating he had ‘talked to several players from the South and they all want to see a full Irish team. I know the Northern Ireland players think the same way’

Maybe some did agree with Best and Dougan. I don't recall any of them saying so. Without any evidence as above, it's al a bit moot as you say. Anyway, even if 20 or 30 had agreed, and had said so, so what? The team exists because fans want it to. Did you notice that another country's entire squad failed to turn up for a recent match- but they were replaced and it went ahead


Indeed, an All-Ireland squad of 14 including seven Northern players played world champions Brazil in a famous 1973 exhibition game but that team had to take the field using a Shamrock Rovers moniker after IFA objections prevented them using Ireland as planned

I was a bit young at the time to see beyond 'Ireland v Brazil' but looking back I wouldn't blame the IFA. It's international rivalry, not cross-border teams...


Talks continued throughout the seventies although various factors including the two sides being drawn against each other for the first time in the Euro '80 qualifiers prevented a resolution being found

See above. Where's your evidence? Euro 80 qualifying is a red herring surely, if the will to merge was that great it would have revived once we were both knocked out


Cormac Moore's excellent book, The Irish Soccer Split, provides great detail on those failed efforts

I'll re-read it, but in the meantime can we have a summary?


The main argument for reunification was that a single side would be better equipped to qualify for major tournaments

If you're a team that never qualifies, you'll hardly see merging with another no-hoper as the ideal solution. So obviously that isn't the main argument, or at least the main honest one ;)


With the qualification for USA '94 sealed amid a poisonous atmosphere in a Windsor Park game against the North, any talk of reunification seemed a long way off and has never been back on any agenda since

You can't be serious. Internet sites, phone-in shows, the wider range of media generally- it's on the agenda much more clearly than 40 or 50 years ago. Last year, 73% in a RTE poll for Claire Byrne's show supported a 'united Ireland' side. By which they obviously didn't mean the one you already have, for which the backing is presumably close to 100%. Those among that 73% who actually watch football must realise that NI fans want to keep our team, but they basically play dumb to avoid admitting an obvious bias.


While the atmosphere at Lansdowne last Thursday was a long way from 25 years before, the nasty edge to it was still dispiriting. From seeing pictures of Northern Ireland fans displaying Para regiment flags to the booing of both anthems to Irish fans roaring IRA slogans at 'orange *******s', it was a long way from France two summers ago where both sets of fans mingled good-naturedly. As I said in the aftermath of Thursday's game, maybe the two-year diet of Brexit, backstops and the proximity to the annual poppy fascism season has seen things regress

Maybe. Or maybe the main reason your fans are angry is a mediocre team, hapless management and a FAI that only reacted to the first two yesterday, a year too late. Of course our support also has a large minority of sectarian trolls and halfwits (I believe the Para fan has been sacked from his job?). Your own similar minority don't reserve bad behavior for NI games, of course. They were particularly obvious in Denmark last year


It's because of the power of sport to unify that my regret about football being split on the island stems

Hang on. Sport does unify. It's given you and I and thousands of others the chance to watch games all over the World, make new friends, and the rest of it. Let's be honest, you want a politically united Ireland primarily, so why not admit it?


The lines have been well drawn at this stage between both sets of supporters and it would be nigh on impossible for either group to simply subsume into the other. Reunification of the sides will only ever happen if there's reunification of the nation. I've always wanted to see that but I'm more than aware that if it's ever to happen, accommodating and welcoming the opposing tradition on the island has to be a big part of it

That's more like it. Although it would be a deal involving two nations, of course


While the other sports mentioned earlier have always drawn support from the middle and upper-class ABC1 base so beloved of rugby sponsors and advertisers, football's history on both sides of the border is a working-class one

The two main differences between Irish football and rugby, cricket, hockey, golf etc are that

a) historically, none of the latter have been major spectator sports. You say Class Struggle, I answer few wanted to watch. Or play, in many cases- rugby is still a minor participant sport across Ireland

b) NI's leading performers in many of them have represented Britain, NI (in the Commonwealth Games, say), England, or themselves. Your implication that only UI teams are available is misleading. In many ways rugby is the outlier. If it suits them, fine . I'm not interested in rugby so why follow their model?


The hooliganism that blighted matches between nationalist and loyalist supported sides in the Irish League is well documented, with the demise of Belfast Celtic and the exclusion of Derry City the most high profile examples of those problems

Unpleasant events 70 and 50 years ago aren't a good basis for action now. Did you know that Derry's women's team have rejoined the Irish League?


Despite the efforts that have been made regarding inclusivity, the NI anthem and flag still give credence to the view that, to paraphrase, it's a Protestant team for a Protestant people

They don't really. That's not a paraphrase- it's an inaccurate cliche and decades out of date. Players, coaches, supporters and the rest of all faiths or none are welcome. I'm guessing you haven't visited a near-empty church in Belfast (or Dublin) for a while ;)

Your entire view is based on the assumption that the NI team shouldn't exist. So of course everything about the team can be used to support that. A roundabout argument. You haven't really adapted it since the other Creedence were in the charts...

Look, I'd have a different NI anthem- Danny Boy, Alternative Ulster, whatever. It would make little difference. Support would still be mainly and broadly Unionist, Nationalist fans, politicians and journos would still gurn as you have. I'm relaxed about the NI flag- would be better without a crown, but we can all compromise ;)


The Ireland team has become a de facto 32 county nationalist team understandably leaving little desire for changing those symbols within the IFA or their support

Hang on. As I mentioned above, many of us want a different anthem- because it suits us, not you or any other team's fans


Family links with the composer of Amhran na BhFiann make its playing a proud highlight of any Ireland game for me, both at home and abroad. But would a rugby style arrangement with a neutral song (albeit one a lot better than the godawful Ireland's Call) have been palatable to our support had it always been thus?

With due respect to great auntie/uncle Drumcondra, I hear a tuneless dirge about fighting foreigners- like the British, Scottish and plenty of other countries' equivalents. As you mention above, your fans already disrespect songs they don't like...


Looking at how both communities united behind

You could have mentioned contemporary sportsmen and women- say Carl Frampton, who lived three streets down from me. I don't see him supporting the South. If he ever does that's cool too. It's a free country baby (well two actually)


How might football on the island have evolved if all 32 counties were cheering a team representing all

A 22 man all island squad (or even team) at the moment would still struggle to finish its dinner, as one fan at Aviva quipped


Instead, the soccer split on the island has simply given some another platform to show off their prejudices

So, anything that disagrees with you must be prejudiced. Yet you aren't?

[tetsujin1979]

You know, you could have just added those comments to the blog?
D69 doesn't post here very often, so he might not see your reply for a while

[Gather round]

Tets- aye, I know and I will. My comments clearly aren't meant for him alone. His comments are public and I imagine he realises responses may be similar

[EAFC_rdfl]

I found the reply interesting reading, and wouldn't have come across on the blog itself. I can't put my eyes through reading white text on black background http://uxmovement.com/content/when-to-use-white-text-on-a-dark-background/

[Drumcondra 69er]

I can remember football only back to the early 70s...

.....So, anything that disagrees with you must be prejudiced. Yet you aren't?

First off, Bill, this was an opinion piece musing on whether things might have been different had there never been a split. Nothing more despite what you seem determined to read into it.

Evidence? "Talks" implies some formaility, agenda, press statement afterwards- that sort of thing. I don't remember any of those appearing, at the time or since

No, they don't. There's plenty of evidence in the likes of Green Shoots, The Irish Soccer Split and even Green is the Colour. Informal talks are still talks. Even the use of gentleman's agreement implies informality.

Maybe some did agree with Best and Dougan. I don't recall any of them saying so. Without any evidence as above, it's al a bit moot as you say. Anyway, even if 20 or 30 had agreed, and had said so, so what? The team exists because fans want it to. Did you notice that another country's entire squad failed to turn up for a recent match- but they were replaced and it went ahead

It's a quote from George Best, nothing more, nothing less.

I was a bit young at the time to see beyond 'Ireland v Brazil' but looking back I wouldn't blame the IFA. It's international rivalry, not cross-border teams...

That's fine if you don;t blame them. I'm simply stating the fact of why they didn't use the Ireland name as planned.

See above. Where's your evidence? Euro 80 qualifying is a red herring surely, if the will to merge was that great it would have revived once we were both knocked out

I'll re-read it, but in the meantime can we have a summary?

It's a blog / newspaper opinion, not a thesis, I'm not going to reference every piece of anecdotal evidence involved and it's ludicrous for you to bang on about it in that context.

You can't be serious. Internet sites, phone-in shows, the wider range of media generally- it's on the agenda much more clearly than 40 or 50 years ago. Last year, 73% in a RTE poll for Claire Byrne's show supported a 'united Ireland' side. By which they obviously didn't mean the one you already have, for which the backing is presumably close to 100%. Those among that 73% who actually watch football must realise that NI fans want to keep our team, but they basically play dumb to avoid admitting an obvious bias.


It's not on the agenda with the associations which was my point, aplogies if that wasn't clear.

Maybe. Or maybe the main reason your fans are angry is a mediocre team, hapless management and a FAI that only reacted to the first two yesterday, a year too late. Of course our support also has a large minority of sectarian trolls and halfwits (I believe the Para fan has been sacked from his job?). Your own similar minority don't reserve bad behavior for NI games, of course. They were particularly obvious in Denmark last year

Our fans are clearly angry due to the above. That wasn;t waht I was talkinmg about though. I've been at every home match v NI since 1989. I've not witnessed an atmosphere like last Thursday's at any, it was far more sectarian than before and disgusted me. I wrote at length about Irish fans loutish behaviour after the Denmark game last and witnessed similar in France. That's a different issue to what I'm referring to.

Hang on. Sport does unify. It's given you and I and thousands of others the chance to watch games all over the World, make new friends, and the rest of it. Let's be honest, you want a politically united Ireland primarily, so why not admit it?

Utterly missing the point. I clearly say that sport unifies. The whole point of the piece is wondering if it may have unified football fans from different traditions had there not been a split. My thoughts on the political future of the island are completly irrelevant in the context of that piece but I'm clear about them in any case so I did admit it. Baffled as to what you're on about here.

The two main differences between Irish football and rugby, cricket, hockey, golf etc are that

a) historically, none of the latter have been major spectator sports. You say Class Struggle, I answer few wanted to watch. Or play, in many cases- rugby is still a minor participant sport across Ireland

b) NI's leading performers in many of them have represented Britain, NI (in the Commonwealth Games, say), England, or themselves. Your implication that only UI teams are available is misleading. In many ways rugby is the outlier. If it suits them, fine . I'm not interested in rugby so why follow their model?


a) I disagree that's the reason. You're etitled to your opinion though.

b) That's fair enough. Again, it misses the point and while the likes of the boxers have represented NI in the commonwealth games, they've done so under the administartion of the Irish governing body. My point relates to administrative bodies.

Unpleasant events 70 and 50 years ago aren't a good basis for action now. Did you know that Derry's women's team have rejoined the Irish League?

Where do I suggest they are? I made the point they happened in a historical context. That's all.

They don't really. That's not a paraphrase- it's an inaccurate cliche and decades out of date. Players, coaches, supporters and the rest of all faiths or none are welcome. I'm guessing you haven't visited a near-empty church in Belfast (or Dublin) for a while

Your entire view is based on the assumption that the NI team shouldn't exist. So of course everything about the team can be used to support that. A roundabout argument. You haven't really adapted it since the other Creedence were in the charts...

Look, I'd have a different NI anthem- Danny Boy, Alternative Ulster, whatever. It would make little difference. Support would still be mainly and broadly Unionist, Nationalist fans, politicians and journos would still gurn as you have. I'm relaxed about the NI flag- would be better without a crown, but we can all compromise

Well, sorry to burst your bubble but using GTSQ as an anthem and the Ulster Banner as a flag do. I noted the laudable efforts of the IFA re exclusivity in the piece but those two items are still th eelephant in the room. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

No, it isn't. I fully recognise the right of the NI team to exist. The entire piece is predicated on a hypothetical scenario where they would have remained the single team on the island ffs.

Hang on. As I mentioned above, many of us want a different anthem- because it suits us, not you or any other team's fans

Simply pointing out that the pattern of northern nationlists declaring for Ireland makes it easier to preserve the status quo.

With due respect to great auntie/uncle Drumcondra, I hear a tuneless dirge about fighting foreigners- like the British, Scottish and plenty of other countries' equivalents. As you mention above, your fans already disrespect songs they don't like...

Again, relevance? The anthem would become an issue today if, hypothetically the teams were to merge. Had a split never occurred that may have been less of an issue.

You could have mentioned contemporary sportsmen and women- say Carl Frampton, who lived three streets down from me. I don't see him supporting the South. If he ever does that's cool too. It's a free country baby (well two actually)

I actually mentioned Frampton in the edited version published in the Indo. I;d be a big fan of Carl.

A 22 man all island squad (or even team) at the moment would still struggle to finish its dinner, as one fan at Aviva quipped

Correct. However, my question was about how football on the island might have evolved without a split over the last century, not the last 12 months.

So, anything that disagrees with you must be prejudiced. Yet you aren't?

How on earth do you conme to that conclussion?? The people who were roaring "orange *******s" at the North's players from the South terrace last weekare prejudiced. The lads who brought a Para flag to the game are prejudiced. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

I should be staggered that you managed to find so much to be offended by in the piece but having read your posts over the years I'm sad to say I'm not.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I found the reply interesting reading, and wouldn't have come across on the blog itself. I can't put my eyes through reading white text on black background http://uxmovement.com/content/when-to-use-white-text-on-a-dark-background/

I find it easier to read personally. But I do intend changing the design when I get time. A slightl emanded version was in the Indo if you're intererested. Headline was not mine btw!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/tony-considine-its-a-shame-that-unlike-the-majority-of-sports-there-are-two-separate-football-teams-on-the-island-37556772.html

[geysir]

Over the past year the blogs have recorded a tortuous descent to a football hell, faster than Dante's.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Few thoughts on the current vacancies in Irish football.....

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2018/11/why-senior-ireland-managers-job-is-not.html

[Stuttgart88]

Very good as usual.

[geysir]

After reading Drum's blog, I'm glad that it's now an accepted fact, that while the contract lay on the table MON did interviews with other EPL clubs and the whole reason for the delay in signing that contract were down to the financial terms of the contract, namely the salary which had to be increased by a reputed Eur 600k in order to gain his signature.
I don't call that good business, I'd call that a thundering disgrace. Even Trap bowed somewhat and accepted a lower salary. Irish football was royally screwed by MON, probably the most deluded of all managers who felt he was actually worth 50% more after the overall performances in the 2018 WC qualifiers.

[Drumcondra 69er]

After reading Drum's blog, I'm glad that it's now an accepted fact, that while the contract lay on the table MON did interviews with other EPL clubs and the whole reason for the delay in signing that contract were down to the financial terms of the contract, namely the salary which had to be increased by a reputed Eur 600k in order to gain his signature.
I don't call that good business, I'd call that a thundering disgrace. Even Trap bowed somewhat and accepted a lower salary. Irish football was royally screwed by MON, probably the most deluded of all managers who felt he was actually worth 50% more after the overall performances in the 2018 WC qualifiers.

To be honest, if the reported 1.2m salary for McCarthy is correct, then they've clearly learned nothing. I can only surmise that they've put a premium on the salary to ensure he'll step aside in 2 years.

The amount of different leaks being given to different journos yesterday is indicative of a dysfunctional media department as well. People within the organisation should be singing from the same hymn sheet but clearly weren't on point.

[seanfhear]

To be honest, if the reported 1.2m salary for McCarthy is correct, then they've clearly learned nothing. I can only surmise that they've put a premium on the salary to ensure he'll step aside in 2 years.

The amount of different leaks being given to different journos yesterday is indicative of a dysfunctional media department as well. People within the organisation should be singing from the same hymn sheet but clearly weren't on point.
Its good money alright . I’d take it myself if it was going . A bit of a sweetener alright . I hope it works out for all of us . We need the Irish soccer team to give us a smile or two .

[Gather round]

First off, Bill, this was an opinion piece musing on whether things might have been different had there never been a split. Nothing more despite what you seem determined to read into it

Morning Tony. I disagree with your opinions on this issue so I've answered them. Whether you were explicit or implicit.


There's plenty of evidence in the likes of Green Shoots, The Irish Soccer Split and even Green is the Colour. Informal talks are still talks. Even the use of gentleman's agreement implies informality

What is it then? A couple of lines would do. You know, who were the people who discussed what in which year?


It's a blog / newspaper opinion, not a thesis, I'm not going to reference every piece of anecdotal evidence involved and it's ludicrous for you to bang on about it in that context

I'm not asking for every anecdote- just any evidence. You've offered none whatever. It's entirely reasonable for me to ask, and petulant for you to refuse as above. More importantly, if you can't/ won't back up your argument it doesn't look very strong...


It's not on the agenda with the associations which was my point, aplogies if that wasn't clear

I know. As I pointed out I disagree that that's particularly relevant. In 2018, the all-Ireland team argument is all over all sorts of media. In 1978- with far fewer media outlets- it was supposedly being discussed by the two FAs, except you aren't telling us anything about it


I've been at every home match v NI since 1989. I've not witnessed an atmosphere like last Thursday's at any, it was far more sectarian than before and disgusted me

That's a shame. I wasn't there this month (listened on Radio Ulster) but was in 1989. When some gurrier on the Havelock Square terraces set fire to a Union Jack just behind me. I wish you success improving the unpleasant attitude at your games


Utterly missing the point. I clearly say that sport unifies. The whole point of the piece is wondering if it may have unified football fans from different traditions had there not been a split

No, I'm challenging the point rather than missing it. For all the united Ireland teams you celebrate, Ireland is still divided a century on. Given that I doubt the absence of a NI team would have made any significant difference to wider politics, society etc.

Sport unifies in the sense that it provides international competition. It clearly doesn't lead to unity in other areas as I've said.


I disagree that's the reason. You're etitled to your opinion though

Ta. I notice you don't actually explain why you challenge it. Much easier just to assume AI teams are the natural order of things and any exception must be the abberation, eh?


while the likes of the boxers have represented NI in the commonwealth games, they've done so under the administartion of the Irish governing body. My point relates to administrative bodies

And mine to which competitions they take part in. If a NI team goes to CG regularly it's clearly separate from the Southern guys who don't. That there's an umbrella admin body doesn't deny that, effectively, there are 2 teams


Where do I suggest they are? I made the point that [ unpleasant events 70 and 50 years ago] happened in a historical context. That's all

If you aren't using them as a basis for achieving an improved situation in the future then it's just ancient whataboutery


Well, sorry to burst your bubble but using GTSQ as an anthem and the Ulster Banner as a flag do. I noted the laudable efforts of the IFA re exclusivity in the piece but those two items are still th eelephant in the room. Only a fool would argue otherwise

More cliche. The NI (team's) flag is accepted by FIFA, UEFA, all their members, and basically all non-Nationalist opinion in NI. The idea that people are too embarrassed to talk about it is clearly daft- Nationalist politicians, journos and fans do so regularly. Even if some of them realise the doublethink- ie, they want the NI team to be less Unionist, but not to the extent where lots of Nationalists start supporting it ;)

As for GSTQ, broadly same point applies. I predict England will abandon it at some point, we'll follow, and the usual suspects will continue to gurn about its successor


No, it isn't. I fully recognise the right of the NI team to exist. The entire piece is predicated on a hypothetical scenario where they would have remained the single team on the island ffs

Even in a very distorted version of your hypothesis, it's not really credible that one AI team would have continued through the 1920s and beyond, playing its matches in Belfast for a mainly Unionist crowd. Fans in the South wouldn't have tolerated that. And I imagine fans in NI would have been equally unwilling to support a team based in Dublin. No doubt you'll cite the rugby example- but they continued largely as before without any such upheaval

You would presumably prefer the second of those scenarios, which would be the NI team disappearing in practice. It's misleading, even dishonest to pretend otherwise. Ffs indeed


Simply pointing out that the pattern of northern nationlists declaring for Ireland makes it easier to preserve the status quo

There's something in that- our fans moan that the FAI deliberately 'poach' players only from Nationalist areas in NI. In reality, they'd take a guy from the Waterside or Sandy Row were he good enough. But mainly the status quo endures because on our side there is no demand whatever to change it


Had a split never occurred that may have been less of an issue

Obviously I'm suggesting that the likelihood of a split not happening was always far-fetched


How on earth do you conme to that conclussion??

You said, "the soccer split on the island has simply [read, solely] given some another platform to show off their prejudices". You'll accept that one implication of that is that it's done nothing else of worth- obviously I disagree. If that's not what you meant fair enough


I should be staggered that you managed to find so much to be offended by in the piece but having read your posts over the years I'm sad to say I'm not

Spare us the clumsy false outrage. Why would you be staggered at NI fans disagreeing with you on this issue- even when you present it as a convoluted daydream? I'm not offended btw, I just like arguing the point. You on the other hand don't like being challenged. If so, why not stick to 'What I did on my holidays' travelogs?

I bring my bias and happily admit to it. You deny yours.

[ArdeeBhoy]

More pompous drivel FB.

#DoBetter

[ArdeeBhoy]

Morning Tony. I disagree with your opinions on this issue so I've answered them. Whether you were explicit or implicit.



What is it then? A couple of lines would do. You know, who were the people who discussed what in which year?



I'm not asking for every anecdote- just any evidence. You've offered none whatever. It's entirely reasonable for me to ask, and petulant for you to refuse as above. More importantly, if you can't/ won't back up your argument it doesn't look very strong...



I know. As I pointed out I disagree that that's particularly relevant. In 2018, the all-Ireland team argument is all over all sorts of media. In 1978- with far fewer media outlets- it was supposedly being discussed by the two FAs, except you aren't telling us anything about it



That's a shame. I wasn't there this month (listened on Radio Ulster) but was in 1989. When some gurrier on the Havelock Square terraces set fire to a Union Jack just behind me. I wish you success improving the unpleasant attitude at your games


Your exact response was "They shoot Fenians don't they", repeated ad nauseum.

Gross hypocrisy.

Plus most of your other waffle is irrelevant given the North is liable to disappear in the next 25 years or so.

So it'll be a UI team, like it or lump it.

[seanfhear]

^^^^^^
Your probably trying to soothe the waters but A United Ireland is not going to take 25 years to happen .

[ArdeeBhoy]

It will with a Hard Brexit Sean...

[CraftyToePoke]

He means it will take less than 25, I'd say AB.

[Gather round]

Sean and Crafty- 25 years until a UI sounds plausible. So 6 more Euros and 7 sets of WC qualifiers then?

[Drumcondra 69er]

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2019/03/gone-with-wind.html

Blog on the Gibraltar trip, match and FAI shenanigans for anyone interested.

Couldn't finish yesterday due to other commitments so slightly out of date...

Will have more positive Georgia blog tomorrow!

[Drumcondra 69er]

Courtin' and the Hourihane - Blog on Georgia game finally finished for these interested in a read about the match and the protest.

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2019/03/courtin-in-hourihane.html

[Drumcondra 69er]

And for anyone wondering why the blog didn't arrive yesterday, here's the Put 'em under pressure podcast about the game we recorded yesterday evening. Subscribe through the link to get them as they arrive.

https://soundcloud.com/user-589408046/peup-2

[Drumcondra 69er]

Not blogged in a long time but had to put a few words down to make the passing of such a legend.

https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2020/07/how-early-days-of-charlton-era-changed.html