Jack Charlton

[barney]

I was watching Green is the Colour yesterday and it highlighted something that's bothered me for a very long time.

When people are looking back at Charlton's era, there seems to be a lot of disrespect shown to him and what he achieved with Ireland.

I hear a lot of people say that he had a great team. Did he though? I heard Mark Lawrenson say that he only picked playing for Ireland because he didn't think he was good enough for England. I'd imagine it was the same with a lot of the players. I remember 1988 and 1990 and no-one was looking at Ireland and saying "They have a great team". Very few Irish players would have been picked by England for example. In fact, after the 1-1 draw with England, I recall Emlyn Hughes disrespectfully saying "We drew with Ireland. It's only Ireland" when having a pop at Bobby Robson.

Yes Jack had a good side, better than most Irish sides. But he achieved much more than any other Irish manager before or since. It wasn't pretty but, taking the 1990 World Cup as an example, football wasn't pretty at the time but we were very, very effective.

When I hear people saying he should have done better, it boils my blood. He got us to the Euros (and within 8 minutes of getting to the semis), got us to the quarters of the 1990 World Cup, got us unbeaten through the next campaign and got us to the last 16 of USA 1994. The last campaign was poor but we still got into a play-off. This is a country who had qualified for nothing before he arrived.

I find it really annoying to hear people who have achieved nothing (or nothing in relative terms) have a pop at the man who put us on the footballing map at international level.

Rant over...

[Junior]

Do people say 'he should have done better'? I havent watched the series yet but generally I thought (think) the irish footballing public hold Jack in high regard and would be of an opinion similar to yours. Are people saying we underachieved, if they are surely its a minority?

[barney]

Do people say 'he should have done better'? I havent watched the series yet but generally I thought (think) the irish footballing public hold Jack in high regard and would be of an opinion similar to yours. Are people saying we underachieved, if they are surely its a minority?

On Green is the Colour, there was a bit of "the style of football was crap for the players we had". Eoin Hand was then saying that Jack's predecessors also deserved a lot of credit for what they did and Jack gets too much credit for our success (I'm paraphrasing but that was the general gist of it). Quite a bit of "He did nothing for the LOI" too. While he didn't, I don't think that was his job.

The programme itself gave Jack credit too to be fair but I do hear a lot of revisionist crap generally about the Charlton era.

Incidentally, if you haven't seen Green is the Colour, get it. Got it at Christmas and only got around to watching it yesterday. Really, really good programme.

[nigel-harps1954]

Don't think I've ever heard anyone saying that 'We should have done better'.

[redobit]

I dont think people believe we underachieved. More so that different/ better tactics, given the team was pretty good, had a realistic chance of actually achieving more.

[Murfinator]

I heard Mark Lawrenson say that he only picked playing for Ireland because he didn't think he was good enough for England. I'd imagine it was the same with a lot of the players.

I simply can't imagine why people would search for reasons to be disrespectful to that era of players.

[Charlie Darwin]

There does seem to be a revisionist view of the Charlton era that he had a host of amazing players to choose from. As far as I know it's only developed in the past couple of years - before that, people were rightly proud of the fact our players punched above their weight and got unexpected results against really good teams with world class players.

[EastTerracer]

I heard Mark Lawrenson say that he only picked playing for Ireland because he didn't think he was good enough for England. I'd imagine it was the same with a lot of the players.

If you listen carefully to what Lawrenson said in that clip he says that he was 19 and playing for Preston. "I never imagined I would be good enough to play for England" so he jumped at the chance to play International football.

If you ask Lawrenson today he would tell you that he has no regrets over that decision (even though he turned out at Liverpool to be a fantastic centre-half who probably would have played for England).

For many of our players born in England or Scotland (excluding Kilbane, Sheedy, Breen, Phelan etc), Ireland probably wasn't their first choice for International Football, but, with only a very few exceptions, almost every one of them gave total commitment to the Irish team once they did make that choice. Invariably, when they are asked today about that decision, they will tell you that they developed a huge connection with the team and with the country that they would never have experienced otherwise.

The football under Jack Charlton was very rudimentary stuff but, apart from the last two years (Jack should have quit after USA 94), that team was phenomenally passionate, committed and probably the best group of players we have ever (or will ever) have. Even the critics (most notably Dunphy) would never question the commitment or patriotism of the players in that era. The criticisms were always about the tactics and the style of football rather than the players.

[paul_oshea]

I wouldn't pay any heed to Hand, he has been spouting that since long time now as they say in the carribbean. He is very bitter. He was unlucky but he is bitter, a bit like a present day kerr. Its funny some of the LOI (background) managers who went on to manage Ireland represent some of their LOI fans quite well, a chip on their shoulders.

[barney]

If you listen carefully to what Lawrenson said in that clip he says that he was 19 and playing for Preston. "I never imagined I would be good enough to play for England" so he jumped at the chance to play International football.

If you ask Lawrenson today he would tell you that he has no regrets over that decision (even though he turned out at Liverpool to be a fantastic centre-half who probably would have played for England).

For many of our players born in England or Scotland (excluding Kilbane, Sheedy, Breen, Phelan etc), Ireland probably wasn't their first choice for International Football, but, with only a very few exceptions, almost every one of them gave total commitment to the Irish team once they did make that choice. Invariably, when they are asked today about that decision, they will tell you that they developed a huge connection with the team and with the country that they would never have experienced otherwise.

The football under Jack Charlton was very rudimentary stuff but, apart from the last two years (Jack should have quit after USA 94), that team was phenomenally passionate, committed and probably the best group of players we have ever (or will ever) have. Even the critics (most notably Dunphy) would never question the commitment or patriotism of the players in that era. The criticisms were always about the tactics and the style of football rather than the players.

Absolutely spot on, that's what Lawrenson said and ironically, he probably would have gotten capped for England at some point.

I wouldn't question any of the players' loyalty at all. They were all very committed and always seemed to give their all.

My gripe is that people think that we had this amazing selection of players. We didn't really. Chris Morris, Andy Townsend, Tony Cascarino, John Aldridge, Mick McCarthy were all decent players who did well for Ireland but weren't great players by any stretch of the imagination and would never have been capped regularly, if at all, for England (although some may disagree on Aldo). You could say the same for Bonner, Moran, Galvin, Sheedy, Quinn and so on. Decent players but not world beaters.

Two of the most gifted players in that era were Brady and Stapleton and they were into their twilight years by the time 1988 came around.

[Yard of Pace]

Slightly off-topic, but Lawro was introduced as being an Irishman on Football Focus on Saturday morning ( the presenter was saying it was a cosmopolitan line-up as there was a Welshman (Savage) and an Irishman on the couch, or some such thing).

I know a lot of people give him stick for referring to England as "we" when he's commentating on their matches etc.

[EastTerracer]

Slightly off-topic, but Lawro was introduced as being an Irishman on Football Focus on Saturday morning ( the presenter was saying it was a cosmopolitan line-up as there was a Welshman (Savage) and an Irishman on the couch, or some such thing).

I know a lot of people give him stick for referring to England as "we" when he's commentating on their matches etc.

A lot of that is urban myth though. I've heard him say "we" about England a couple of times but more often that not, he says "we" for Ireland and says England for them. Andy Townsend is actually a far worse offender in this regard when commentating on England games (but to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much anyway). Lawro is admittedly bit annoying as a pundit but I think the begrudgery about him is way overdone considering what a good (and committed) player he was for us.

He captained Ireland in his last appearance for us (5-0 against Israel in Dalymount Park in 1987) on the day before Gary Mackay sent us to the Euros. Unfortunately the achilles injury forced him to retire shortly afterwards and, like Brady, he didn't get the chance to play in a major tournament for us.

[Colbert Report]

Charlton did very well but personally I think Trap has done a much better job considering the crap selection of players he has available to him.

[barney]

Charlton did very well but personally I think Trap has done a much better job considering the crap selection of players he has available to him.

I'd be a defender of Trap but can't agree with this albeit I understand why you would say it.

Jack made us competitive against the best teams in the world and remarkably consistent. Trap hasn't done the former and arguably the latter.

Jack was also the first. I know Trap can't compete on that front but for that alone Jack deserves massive credit.

[pineapple stu]

Charlton did very well but personally I think Trap has done a much better job considering the crap selection of players he has available to him.
Not a chance. Not even the remotest chance of a chance.

[Paddy Garcia]

I dont think people believe we underachieved. More so that different/ better tactics, given the team was pretty good, had a realistic chance of actually achieving more.

That is a case of having your fish & eating it!

[mark12345]

If you listen carefully to what Lawrenson said in that clip he says that he was 19 and playing for Preston. "I never imagined I would be good enough to play for England" so he jumped at the chance to play International football.

If you ask Lawrenson today he would tell you that he has no regrets over that decision (even though he turned out at Liverpool to be a fantastic centre-half who probably would have played for England).

For many of our players born in England or Scotland (excluding Kilbane, Sheedy, Breen, Phelan etc), Ireland probably wasn't their first choice for International Football, but, with only a very few exceptions, almost every one of them gave total commitment to the Irish team once they did make that choice. Invariably, when they are asked today about that decision, they will tell you that they developed a huge connection with the team and with the country that they would never have experienced otherwise.

The football under Jack Charlton was very rudimentary stuff but, apart from the last two years (Jack should have quit after USA 94), that team was phenomenally passionate, committed and probably the best group of players we have ever (or will ever) have. Even the critics (most notably Dunphy) would never question the commitment or patriotism of the players in that era. The criticisms were always about the tactics and the style of football rather than the players.

"Football was very rudimentary"

That doesn't tell the whole story. The srory of Jack Charlton began, for me, in 1977, if I remember rightly. Ireland had been drawn in an upcoming group with England and Jack was commenting on England's prospects. At the time we were the lowest of the low in international football, but Jack said good things about us. He didn't have to but he did and I'll always remember him for that. One other thing that he said, regarding football in general, was that defenders don't have to be good players - they only have to be good at stopping others play. How true that is and still is.

Ultimately Jack Charlton put his ideas into motion for Ireland. He stopped other teams from playing to their potential. He was brilliant at it. And if you look at the forwards we had (remember Man City wouldn't release Niall Quinn for USA) he did an absolutely remarkable job. We had Tommy Coyne starting against Italy. If we had've had a Stoichkov or a Shearer we would have gone quite a bit further at USA.

[gastric]

Charlton was our best manager ever and was helped by having good players who suited his gameplan. While we were lucky to qualify for Euro 88, this was the beginning of people actually believing in Irish football and having expectations. Trap now has to deal with expectations that Charlton really didn't have to. We went along for the ride, loved the experience, loved the man, the team and generally had a party. I think real expectations of Irish teams really didn't materialise until USA 94. Having spent years watching Ireland nearly qualify, the Charlton years bring back great memories and probably for many of my generation nothing since can compare to this.

[Crosby87]

when i saw this was a new thread i feared the worst.

[Fixer82]

A lot of that is urban myth though. I've heard him say "we" about England a couple of times but more often that not, he says "we" for Ireland and says England for them. Andy Townsend is actually a far worse offender in this regard when commentating on England games (but to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much anyway).



David O'Leary referring to England as 'we' was always the worst offender. Headwrecking!

[tricky_colour]

Just found an old article about Charlton and that era surprised they had the internet back in 1994!!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-why-charltons-men-are-the-guardians-of-irish-identity-as-irelands-squad-for-the-world-cup-finals-is-named-eamon-dunphy-believes-that-the-questioning-of-their-pedigree-at-home-and-abroad-is-unreasonable-and-pays-insufficient-regard-to-their-real-ability-1437587.html

I have not read it all myself yet but I thought it would be interesting for people to read an article
from prior to the Finals looking forward rather than as people now see it looking back.





Football: Why Charlton's men are the guardians of Irish identity: As Ireland's squad for the World Cup finals is named, Eamon Dunphy believes that the questioning of their pedigree at home and abroad is unreasonable and pays insufficient regard to their real ability


THE TONE was, as ever, faintly patronising. The speaker, an English television commentator, was expressing a view shared by most of his compatriots, certainly those employed as sportswriters. Jack Charlton's Irish team were 'gallant'. The expert, engaged to sit alongside the commentator, one of those louche gents who feature regularly on the back pages of tabloid newspapers, a Football League manager, chipped in 'Yes, they've done well the Irish, some of them were actually born over there.' A wry chuckle, before expert and commentator returned to the banal business in hand, an attempt to infuse some drama into yet another nondescript FA Premiership occasion.

We should be accustomed to an Englishman's failure to appreciate the achievement of the Irish under Charlton, who yesterday announced the squad (see right) for next month's World Cup finals in the United States. Two convictions underpin this condescending attitude. Both are understandable, both are wrong. The notion that the Irish are gallant has to do with our size. If a small nation succeeds on the world's playing fields, the tabloid mind can only advance one explanation for success: gallantry. This is a David and Goliath job, hats off to David.

The possibility that Ireland's successes, while reflecting an inordinate amount of gallantry, might also be attributable to more celebrated qualities, such as talent and tactical resourcefulness, seems beyond the grasp of those watching from afar. To be fair to those English critics who cling affectionately to the gallant theory to explain Ireland's presence among the elite of international soccer, one should acknowledge that it was for guts more than anything else that Jack Charlton's team was distinguished when first emerging during the 1988 European Championship.

Courage and a certain stubbornness, bloody conviction, injected by an English manager creating a team in his own image, was indeed the hallmark of the Irish team in Germany. And, two years on, when Ireland reached the quarter finals of Italia '90, the story was much the same.

But now, four years later, the Irish team are immeasurably more formidable for the presence of a group of outstanding footballers, men of unquestioned ability worthy of a place in any international side in Europe. Gifted players such as Denis Irwin, Terry Phelan, Gary Kelly, Roy Keane, Phil Babb and Niall Quinn (sadly injured for next month's finals) have come of age in the world game these past four years. Alongside trusted veterans, Paul McGrath, Kevin Moran, Andy Townsend, John Aldridge, Ray Houghton and Ronnie Whelan, the new generation of Irish players matured while ensuring that Charlton's team survived the most competitive of World Cup qualifying groups. A task which, significantly, proved beyond Denmark, the reigning European champions.

This new Irish team are one of the best in Europe and may prove next month to be even better than that. Gallant Irish? Of course, but talented as well on the latest available evidence, the annihilation of Holland in Tilburg last month, sophisticated and bearing a newly discovered self-confidence in their ability to outwit the opposition rather than grind them into submission.

The fighting Irish are now the thinking Irish, a team worthy of respect. Condescension is no longer appropriate.

That issue having been resolved, the more serious and insidious insult hurled at this remarkable team, that they are not really Irish at all, deserves nothing more than contempt. On the question of breeding, whether or not the sons and grandsons of the Irish diaspora can validly claim to be Irishmen at all, it is not merely English observers who should be confronted with the facts, but others nearer home who sneer at the admittedly incongruous sound of an English voice in an Irish shirt.

During the fraught final qualifying match in Belfast, an unprecedented test of sporting character which Charlton's players passed with honours, sectarian fanatics masquerading as Northern Irish fans vented their hatred for the world to see. The charge levelled at the 'Fenian *******s' was that they were 'mercenaries', selling their souls for an opportunity to play international football. The blackguards of Belfast could be dismissed if it were not for the ironic fact that in their desperation they were echoing the sentiments of their mortal enemies, the Gaelic fanatics, those Irishmen south of the border who, occasionally out loud but mostly by soft, sly deprecation, question the legitimacy of men in Charlton's squad whose accents do not sound quite right to the native ear.

On the issue of Irish identity, English ignorance, coated as it is in affection, can be excused. Pity is perhaps the best response to the Loyalist louts who disgraced themselves at Windsor Park last November. It is, however, less easy to forgive our indigenous bigot, the self-anointed true Gael in this Republic who queries the Irishness of our exiles' children.

Those who have maliciously and persistently muttered about Irishmen with strange accents will doubtless surface again in the weeks ahead. There is one in every town and village, in every bar. Wherever a majority gather to celebrate the substantial achievements of this Irish team, a minority, vocal and often unduly influential, the Irish teacher, the really Catholic priest, the True Gael politician, will lurk, nursing a grudge about 'foreign games' and 'mercenaries'.

[tricky_colour]

..continued


Reason is the antidote. For those who argue that Houghton, Babb, Townsend and Phelan are not Irishmen, citing as evidence the colour of their skin or the dialect they speak, the answer is that emigration is a fact of life on this small island. Phil Babb's mother was from Carlow. Roy Houghton's father a Donegal man. Andy Townsend's grandmother came from Castleisland in County Kerry. Terry Phelan's mother was a Sligo woman.

Far from resenting the presence of those men in an Irish shirt, those who love their country and understand its troubled history should rejoice in what is, in fact, an inspiring sub-text to the story of Jack Charlton and his team. For a nation familiar with the ravages of emigration, acquainted with the sorrow of sons and daughters gone never to be known again, for people all over Ireland who stare poignantly at that empty chair and that unoccupied bed, in places like Donegal, Carlow, Kerry and Sligo, spiteful slurs cast upon our Irish footballers ring hollow indeed.

When those slyly seeking to deny Irish identity to Andy Townsend and Phil Babb are, as is invariably the case, the very people who whinge loudest about emigration, we can see them for what they truly are; reactionary, bigoted, disingenuous. And, happily, a minority, whose influence wanes with every passing year.

Nobody who has seen this Irish team compete can reasonably doubt their commitment to their country.

Of the Irish players born elsewhere, it can be claimed that the ostensibly trivial pursuit of sport has awakened in them a true sense of Irishness, which has nothing to do with waving flags, hating others or speaking a particular language in a certain accent. To be Irish is a matter of behaviour. To be Irish is to possess a unique sense of humour, to be tolerant, to love a song, to face honourably life's vicissitudes, to be willing to play the game of life or sport, to win or lose yet have some fun.

It is to those real Irish virtues, which we natives sometimes forget or take for granted, that the emigrant Irish in Jack Charlton's team invariably refer when asked what playing for their country means to them.

And, wherever they have played, it is to those real Irish virtues that these Irish men have been committed. Which explains why, whatever is the final result of their endeavours in the United States this summer, Irish people everywhere will rejoice when they reflect on the saga of Charlton and his men. While bigots cavil about accents and other incidentals of national identity, the rest of us can celebrate this glorious reunion of men with their past.

Republic of Ireland details World Cup squad
Player Position Club Age Caps

Pat Bonner Goalkeeper Celtic 34 71
Alan Kelly Goalkeeper Sheffield United 25 2
Gary Kelly Defender Leeds United 19 2
Denis Irwin Defender Manchester United 28 24
Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa 34 63
Phil Babb Defender Coventry City 23 2
Alan Kernaghan Defender Manchester City 27 9
Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers 38 70
Terry Phelan Defender Manchester City 27 19
Ray Houghton Midfielder Aston Villa 32 56
Jason McAteer Midfielder Bolton Wanderers 22 2
Roy Keane Midfielder Manchester United 22 19
John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday 29 17
Andy Townsend Midfielder Aston Villa 30 42
Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool 32 49
Steve Staunton Midfielder Aston Villa 25 44
Eddie McGoldrick Midfielder Arsenal 29 11
Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Portsmouth 27 17
John Aldridge Forward Tranmere Rovers 35 56
Tony Cascarino Forward Chelsea 31 47
Tommy Coyne Forward Motherwell 31 11
David Kelly Forward Wolves 28 15
----------------------------------------------------------------- Facts and fixtures -----------------------------------------------------------------

World Cup finals record: Quarter-finalists in 1990. How they qualified: Runners-up to Spain in Europe Group Three. World Cup fixtures: Group E: 18 June: Italy (9pm BST, New York). 24 June: Mexico (5.30pm, Orlando). 28 June: Norway (5.30pm, New York). Training camp: Seminole County Training Center, Orlando, Florida. Remaining warm-up matches: Tuesday: Bolivia (Dublin). 29 May: Germany (Hanover). 5 June: Czech Republic (Dublin). ----------------------------------------------------------------

[tricky_colour]

I expect most of us would be happy to swop the current squad for the 1994 squad?


here is the league table for 93/94


1 Manchester United 42 27 11 4 80 38 +42 92 1994–95 UEFA Champions League Group stage
2 Blackburn Rovers 42 25 9 8 63 36 +27 84 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round
3 Newcastle United 42 23 8 11 82 41 +41 77
4 Arsenal 42 18 17 7 53 28 +25 71 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 1
5 Leeds United 42 18 16 8 65 39 +26 70
6 Wimbledon 42 18 11 13 56 53 +3 65
7 Sheffield Wednesday 42 16 16 10 76 54 +22 64
8 Liverpool 42 17 9 16 59 55 +4 60
9 Queens Park Rangers 42 16 12 14 62 61 +1 60
10 Aston Villa 42 15 12 15 46 50 −4 57 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round 2
11 Coventry City 42 14 14 14 43 45 −2 56
12 Norwich City 42 12 17 13 65 61 +4 53
13 West Ham United 42 13 13 16 47 58 −11 52
14 Chelsea 42 13 12 17 49 53 −4 51 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 3
15 Tottenham Hotspur 42 11 12 19 54 59 −5 45
16 Manchester City 42 9 18 15 38 49 −11 45
17 Everton 42 12 8 22 42 63 −21 44
18 Southampton 42 12 7 23 49 66 −17 43
19 Ipswich Town 42 9 16 17 35 58 −23 43
20 Sheffield United (R) 42 8 18 16 42 60 −18 42 Relegation to 1994–95

I think I make it about 5 players from the top 5 clubs (none now?) and about 10 from the top 11.

[osarusan]

1 Patrick Bonner
2 Christopher B Morris
3 Christopher Hughton
4 Michael Mccarthy
5 Kevin Moran
6 Ronald Whelan
7 Paul McGrath
8 Raymond Houghton
9 John William Aldridge
10 Francis Stapleton
11 Anthony Galvin

Substitutes

12 Anthony Cascarino
15 Kevin Sheedy
16 Gerald Peyton
17 John Byrne
20 Niall Quinn

Coach

John Jack Charlton

Line up against the Dutch in euro 88.


Republic of Ireland

Line-up
[1] Pat BONNER (GK)
[2] Chris MORRIS
[3] Steve STAUNTON
[4]Mick MC CARTHY (C)
[5] Kevin MORAN
[7]Paul McGRATH
[8] Ray HOUGHTON
[9]John ALDRIDGE (-78')
[11]Kevin SHEEDY
[13] Andy TOWNSEND
[17] Niall QUINN (-53')

Substitute(s)
[6] Ronnie WHELAN
[10]Tony CASCARINO (+53')
[12] David O LEARY
[14]Christopher HUGHTON
[15]Bernard SLAVEN
[16] John SHERIDAN (+78')
[18] Frank STAPLETON
[19]David KELLY
[20]John BYRNE
[21]Alan McLOUGHLIN
[22]Gerald PEYTON

Coach
Jack CHARLTON (ENG)

Line up against Itlay in Italia 90.


1 Patrick Bonner
2 Denis Irwin
3 Steve Staunton
4 David O'Leary
5 Kevin Moran
6 Andrew Townsend
7 Paul McGrath
8 Raymond Houghton
9 Niall Quinn
10 John William Aldridge
11 Kevin Sheedy

Substitutes

12 Anthony Cascarino
13 Christopher Hughton
14 John Sheridan
15 Alan McLoughlin
16 Gerald Peyton

Coach

John Jack Charlton

That was the team that drew 1-1 away to England in 1991.


Whatever about levels of achievement, we had some fantastic players back then, strength in almost every position.

[paul_oshea]

great article tricky.no doubt somethings ring true now! one thing stuck out for me was the fact that a few weeks later innocent irish supporters were going to be shot dead in a pub watching those emigrants children and "natives" playing against the mighty Italy.

[geysir]

Charlton came in at a time when there was still some good milage left in a golden generation of players, in a team which hadn't achieved qualification. It still took a very good manager to see what extra was needed and get the team to compete consistently.
Do we have a player (on current form) who you would say, would walk in to any Irish team at any time in the last 40 years? I don't think so.
We have a good depth to our squad now but nowhere near the same first team quality.
From our squad today, possibly one or (at a stretch) 2 players might have got onto the first team at one of those Finals, possibly Long in the USA '94 team, because of the injuries.
People have a point, when they say Trap has done relatively well with what's available.

[barney]

I expect most of us would be happy to swop the current squad for the 1994 squad?


here is the league table for 93/94


1 Manchester United 42 27 11 4 80 38 +42 92 1994–95 UEFA Champions League Group stage
2 Blackburn Rovers 42 25 9 8 63 36 +27 84 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round
3 Newcastle United 42 23 8 11 82 41 +41 77
4 Arsenal 42 18 17 7 53 28 +25 71 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 1
5 Leeds United 42 18 16 8 65 39 +26 70
6 Wimbledon 42 18 11 13 56 53 +3 65
7 Sheffield Wednesday 42 16 16 10 76 54 +22 64
8 Liverpool 42 17 9 16 59 55 +4 60
9 Queens Park Rangers 42 16 12 14 62 61 +1 60
10 Aston Villa 42 15 12 15 46 50 −4 57 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round 2
11 Coventry City 42 14 14 14 43 45 −2 56
12 Norwich City 42 12 17 13 65 61 +4 53
13 West Ham United 42 13 13 16 47 58 −11 52
14 Chelsea 42 13 12 17 49 53 −4 51 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 3
15 Tottenham Hotspur 42 11 12 19 54 59 −5 45
16 Manchester City 42 9 18 15 38 49 −11 45
17 Everton 42 12 8 22 42 63 −21 44
18 Southampton 42 12 7 23 49 66 −17 43
19 Ipswich Town 42 9 16 17 35 58 −23 43
20 Sheffield United (R) 42 8 18 16 42 60 −18 42 Relegation to 1994–95

I think I make it about 5 players from the top 5 clubs (none now?) and about 10 from the top 11.

You have to put that in context too though. The Premiership now is much stronger and people like Kevin Moran (particularly the 1994 version), Eddie McGoldrick or Ronnie Whelan probably wouldn't be in top 4 sides in this day and age IMO. Irwin and Keane probably would though.

[tetsujin1979]

And if you look at the forwards we had (remember Man City wouldn't release Niall Quinn for USA) he did an absolutely remarkable job.
City didn't release him because Quinn had torn his cruciate, he wouldn't have been able to play anyway! He did punditry work for RTE for the Ireland game in USA '94

[DannyInvincible]

I wouldn't pay any heed to Hand, he has been spouting that since long time now as they say in the carribbean. He is very bitter. He was unlucky but he is bitter, a bit like a present day kerr. Its funny some of the LOI (background) managers who went on to manage Ireland represent some of their LOI fans quite well, a chip on their shoulders.

It works both ways. Perceived neglect breeds contempt and the FAI have never made the league or its adherents their priority. In fact, the league is nowhere near their priority...


A lot of that is urban myth though. I've heard him say "we" about England a couple of times but more often that not, he says "we" for Ireland and says England for them. Andy Townsend is actually a far worse offender in this regard when commentating on England games (but to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much anyway). Lawro is admittedly bit annoying as a pundit but I think the begrudgery about him is way overdone considering what a good (and committed) player he was for us.

They are English and Irish, after all, so why wouldn't they use "we" when referring to both their clans, if you will?


David O'Leary referring to England as 'we' was always the worst offender. Headwrecking!

He was born in London, but that one's a bit more puzzling considering both his parents were Irish and he grew up in Ireland from the age of three.

[Colbert Report]

City didn't release him because Quinn had torn his cruciate, he wouldn't have been able to play anyway! He did punditry work for RTE for the Ireland game in USA '94

Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.

[tetsujin1979]

Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.
if he was fully fit, City would have had to release him for the tournament under FIFA rules.
Even if he had recovered, he hadn't played since the previous November

[Fixer82]

Fully fit with no game time. Wouldn't have been worth much to us.
What killed us in that tournament ultimately was two silly mistakes from Packie and Terry Phelan

[gustavo]

David O'Leary referring to England as 'we' was always the worst offender. Headwrecking!

I can't imagine that to be true , Is there a source for that?

[Fixer82]

I can't imagine that to be true , Is there a source for that?

Oh it's very true. I remember when he was in studio, probably when managing Leeds.
During England Games he constantly referred to England as 'we' along with Lineker etc.
Probably around France '98 and Euro 2000 time.
It drove me mad!

[geysir]

Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.
You heard wrong.

[back of the net]

You heard wrong.

that interview is on youtube lads - cant recall who heard right or wrong - just remember it been a very good interview

[Bungle]

You have to put that in context too though. The Premiership now is much stronger and people like Kevin Moran (particularly the 1994 version), Eddie McGoldrick or Ronnie Whelan probably wouldn't be in top 4 sides in this day and age IMO. Irwin and Keane probably would though.

By Ronnie Whelan not being involved in top 4 sides these days, do you mean the 1994 Ronnie or the Whelan of the 1980s that for me was one of the top midfielders in the world?

Anyone stating that Lawro would have played for England are severely underestimating his ability. Both he and Hansen were two of the best defenders of their generation and would have graced any international team of their day. Beglin was another quality player who was destined to have been really world class only for injury.

[barney]

By Ronnie Whelan not being involved in top 4 sides these days, do you mean the 1994 Ronnie or the Whelan of the 1980s that for me was one of the top midfielders in the world?

Anyone stating that Lawro would have played for England are severely underestimating his ability. Both he and Hansen were two of the best defenders of their generation and would have graced any international team of their day. Beglin was another quality player who was destined to have been really world class only for injury.

1994 Whelan. The 1980s version probably would be.

Don't think anyone believes Lawro wouldn't have gotten a cap for England. But he himself said that he believed, at 19, that he wasn't good enough to play for England and that's why he chose Ireland. I'd bet most of the players like Chris Morris, Andy Townsend and Tony Cascarino, if they were being honest, would say the same. Thing is, in their cases, they weren't good enough to play for England.

[Bungle]

1994 Whelan. The 1980s version probably would be.

Don't think anyone believes Lawro wouldn't have gotten a cap for England. But he himself said that he believed, at 19, that he wasn't good enough to play for England and that's why he chose Ireland. I'd bet most of the players like Chris Morris, Andy Townsend and Tony Cascarino, if they were being honest, would say the same. Thing is, in their cases, they weren't good enough to play for England.

I believe that Ronnie would have been a great player in today's game, just as he was back in the 1980s. I think he would walk into any premiership midfield today. The same is true of Robson, Souness, Peter Reid or Brady.

My point is that Lawro would not just have made the England team, but would have made any international team of the era.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think Jack would've loved some of the striking options managers since him have had available notwithstanding the classier midfielders he had available in Keane, Townsend (who I think would've eventually won England caps if that's the benchmark), Sheridan (relatively rarely used).

Most supporters of most teams looking backward say 'we could've done more/better' as I will here but we did pretty well. We were always competitive, we could and should have qualified for Euro' 92. Team was starting to fray round the edges in WC94 qualifiers but it still had a bloody good spine to it and was able to absorb the 'black wednesday' collapse against Spain due to the good work it put in in places like Riga, Vilnius and Tirana.

A little bit of new blood (3 amigos for example) showed up in time for USA but we wilted there due to environmental factors beyond our control and incompatible with a hard running game. After the 94 WC was probably, to quote Dunphy, the natural time for Jack to move on. But he didn't and the England '96 campaign is the only one where Jack stands accused (in my mind anyway) of gross mismanagment. The striking options were still very thin going into the Euro qualifiers (Aldo by now our most prolific striker in his mid 30's) and qualification from an entirely winnable group was ****ed away due to serious dereliction of duty by Jack ...and the squad to be fair. But if he'd been about a bit more ...who knows.

[Charlie Darwin]

I completely forgot we were seeded first for the Euro 96 draw. We were unlucky to get Portugal of the second seeds.

[geysir]

that interview is on youtube lads - cant recall who heard right or wrong - just remember it been a very good interview
There could be a few different interviews I suppose and he could have said something about his fitness to play in one and said he was out because of a cruciate in another.

[Colbert Report]

He's always claimed that he was fully fit and that Manchester City refused to release him. He also claims that Jack Charlton should have done more to pressue City to release him and was afraid to do so because he was English and hoped to get a job back in English club footballl.

[Charlie Darwin]

He's always claimed that he was fully fit and that Manchester City refused to release him. He also claims that Jack Charlton should have done more to pressue City to release him and was afraid to do so because he was English and hoped to get a job back in English club footballl.
You're actually right for once.

From an interview with the Mirror in 1997:


Torn cruciate (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cruciate) ligaments, sustained in a club game the previous November, was given as the reason for his absence from the squad. But he believes soccer politics also had a part in the decision which left him on the fringes in Florida.

"I didn't play in the finals, not because I was injured but because the chairman of Manchester City, Frannie Lee, didn't want me to play.

"The surgeon who performed the operation and my own doctor said there was no valid reason why I shouldn't have been fit some seven months after the operation.

"But Lee, presumably (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/presumably) because he felt I might wreck my knee again, decided I wasn't going to make it. And at the end of the day, his was the voice that mattered.

"Reading Jack Charlton's book I discovered that he had ruled me out of his plans in March, a full three months before the squad went to the States. Now I don't know where he got his info, but that was way off the mark.

"At that point I was working my butt off to be ready. Now I learn that it was all wasted effort.

"That was the biggest downer (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Downer) of my time at City. And it left me with an even greater hunger to play in the World Cup finals again."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/My+World+Cup+dreams+were+blown+away+by+Frannie+Lee !%3B+Now+I'm+aiming...-a061121357

[Colbert Report]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I was astounded when I heard the OTB interview with him. He was spitting anger some fifteen years after the fact. Can't say I blame him. You wouldn't get away with that kind of thing nowadays.

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting he's maintaining that line today. This article suggests he was eased back into action with substitute appearances by City a good three months later. I wonder why they'd do that if he was actually fully fit.

http://www.scmp.com/article/87282/quinn-fit-comeback

[mark12345]

if he was fully fit, City would have had to release him for the tournament under FIFA rules.
Even if he had recovered, he hadn't played since the previous November

He was fit according to the player himself and was working out with the World Cup as his goal. His chances were shot down a month before the tournament by Brian Horton who said he would not be released to go to USA. Quinn was gutted. Horton showed him no support at all in his bid to make the finals. And then Horton was gone from the club in a matter of months.

[CraftyToePoke]

I'd bet most of the players like Chris Morris, Andy Townsend and Tony Cascarino, if they were being honest, would say the same. Thing is, in their cases, they weren't good enough to play for England.

Do you mean the England who didn't qualify for USA 94 while picking the likes of John Salako, Andy Sinton, Geoff Thomas and Carlton Palmer in midfield around that time, while Townsend was in the middle for us?

[barney]

Do you mean the England who didn't qualify for USA 94 while picking the likes of John Salako, Andy Sinton, Geoff Thomas and Carlton Palmer in midfield around that time, while Townsend was in the middle for us?

The very ones. John Salako and Andy Sinton were wingers by the way.

Wasn't David Platt in the middle of the park for that side too? And wasn't Palmer shining for a Sheffield Wednesday side who had not long since finished third in the league in 1992 followed by two cup finals in 1993?

You could be right, Townsend may have gotten a couple of caps for England but he wouldn't have made the 1990 squad or team. If he'd really believed he was good enough to play for them, he'd have declared for England.

[Bungle]

The very ones. John Salako and Andy Sinton were wingers by the way.

Wasn't David Platt in the middle of the park for that side too? And wasn't Palmer shining for a Sheffield Wednesday side who had not long since finished third in the league in 1992 followed by two cup finals in 1993?

You could be right, Townsend may have gotten a couple of caps for England but he wouldn't have made the 1990 squad or team. If he'd really believed he was good enough to play for them, he'd have declared for England.

Townsend was nominated for the pfa player of the year award in 1989, which was won by Mark Hughes. He went on to be in 3 pfa team of the years. Townsend was a top player and would have been an England captain in my opinion.