Ken Bigley

[Metrostars]

...The people who did this to another human being are nothing but animals who deserve nothing but a worse death themselves.


But no worse than Americans, right Eanna?

[Éanna]

One of the lads at work had the web site which showed Bigley and the Americans being beheaded,I wish I hadn't watched it now because it was the most disturbing thing I have ever seen.The people who did this to another human being are nothing but animals who deserve nothing but a worse death themselves.
Can't argue with you there. No right-thinking human being would do what they did to him. But you have to wonder why they're not right thinking, and what made them think like they do

[joeSoap]

Can't argue with you there. No right-thinking human being would do what they did to him. But you have to wonder why they're not right thinking, and what made them think like they do
But in their own eyes they are right-thinking, and that the western world per se is screwed up. Probably some truth in that, but we in the western world, americans included, would never subject a man to such a death and broadcast it on the net.
I know about Guantanamo Bay, Lindie England and all that which I don't condone either btw, but western civilisation is not teaching these people how to do this....and neither I believe is their religion. They are pure, blood thirsty barbarians, probably deprived of free speech and a worldly education.

[Closed Account 2]

Can't argue with you there. No right-thinking human being would do what they did to him. But you have to wonder why they're not right thinking, and what made them think like they do


Well thats the huge question. Especially given there are other regions which have suffered much worse "exploitation" (so to speak) from the West, and suffer larger atrocities than the middle east. Latin America has been exploited and generally messed around with by all the big powers at various stages pretty much since 1492, yet you dont tend to get things like this happening over there. Similarly, other countries have it substantially worse than Palestine in terms of occupied land - eg Armenia.

NB Im not saying the exploitation is right or wrong per say, more questioning why there is such a huge difference in reaction in different parts of the world.

[Éanna]

Well thats the huge question. Especially given there are other regions which have suffered much worse "exploitation" (so to speak) from the West, and suffer larger atrocities than the middle east. Latin America has been exploited and generally messed around with by all the big powers at various stages pretty much since 1492, yet you dont tend to get things like this happening over there. Similarly, other countries have it substantially worse than Palestine in terms of occupied land - eg Armenia.

You're spot on there. So the key to the question is why are Islamic extremists doing these things? I don't think any one factor can be blamed, but I do think "the west" has to look at itself for some of the answers. Like how muslims in france and britain are treated, how the turks are treated in germany and so on.

I'll give you a bit of trivia that might explain the hostility:
You know croissants, those delicious french breakfast snacks? The reason they are shaped as they are is because they represent the Muslim crescent (similar to the Christian cross) and they were made to celebrate victory over the moors during the time of the crusades. Now if we in the western world didn't have much access to education, were living in poverty an ignorance and saw pictures of people smearing jam on crucifixes and eating them for breakfast, I'd say some people would get kind of annoyed.

Similarly, there are several towns in the south of spain called "Matamoros" which literally means "kill moors" from the time when the moors were driven out of Spain by the christians.

Now I know these are irrelevant historical facts, but when people hear things like that and see the western powers on friendly terms with the governments which oppress them, then maybe they're entitled to get a bit ****ed now and again.

[Closed Account 2]

But cant those things be applied across to the situation in Latin America too? In Spanish towns, for example, there is usually a statue to Cortez or some other person associated with the conquistadors, even in Latin America itself places are named after such things (eg the Sea of Cortez, Bahia California) - how come, given the living conditions for most Latin Americans are broadly similar to those experienced by Middle Easterners, the level of reaction is so different? For instance there are sizable communities of Latin Americans in "Western" countries (eg Ecuadorians in Spain, or even Cuban and Mexicans in the US), they dont tend to get fair treatment and most have to work in dead-end jobs and suffer from a fair bit of descrimination. Equally well many of those who remain living in Latin America have suffered too, at the hands of regiemes propped up by the West (eg those "Dissappeared" by the Argentine Junta or executed in Stadiums in Chile). To me there seem to be lots of parallels between the plight (so to speak) of Muslims and Latin Americans but I dont get why the reaction to the oppression/conditions is so different.

[Éanna]

There are a lot of similarities, but i guess it comes down to culture in many ways. Very hard to work out why one group of people reacts differently to another

[DolansWaistcoat]

Oh Christ, you can't see things like that without being damaged by it. People, just don't. Please.

Thing is, they're not animals, they're people like you and I, and that's what makes it even worse. If it was a .mov of some guy being eaten alive by a crocodile it'd almost be better in a dreadful way, if you know what I mean. An animal doesn't have a choice, it's just doing what it does to survive. The fckers who killed Bigley had a choice.

Ya you're right to call them animals is to insult the animals who only kill out of instinct.

You mentioned a crocodile there,I'd have no problem whatsoever with throwing the scum who commit these crimes to a few hungry crocs.On second thoughts that would be too quick a death for them :mad:

[Éanna]

Those people who did this should be punished, there's no question about that. But punishing the perpetrators of one crime won't solve anything. You have to take a two-pronged approach:
1. Punish anyone guilty of these crimes.
2. Investigate what motivated them to do so, and try to explain to people who may follow them what you're doing and why you're doing it.

[jofyisgod]

2. Investigate what motivated them to do so, and try to explain to people who may follow them what you're doing and why you're doing it.

Very true, Eanna, but very hard at the same time. The easy option is for people to say 'Oh, that's what they do in that religion'. Couldn't be further from the truth. Thses religions, such as Islam, etc, are all based on decency and kindness to all other life, be it human or animal.
Where do they get these ideas from?Who knows? Are they almost mercenary killers frightened into these acts by their bosses-bear in mind, one of them helped Bigley's attempt at escaping AFAIK- or is it much more sinister?

Will this become bigger, will more and more of these killings happen(there's enough as it is) but will it grow? Let's hope not.

[Éanna]

well if "the west" (sorry about the "s but I hate the phrase) reacts only by promising to hunt down those responsible, I can only see it getting worse. It is very hard to do anything but want to punish those responsible, but that is the only way forward. Blaming it on "murderers" or on Islam just doesn't work. The US, Britain and other countries have taken a very simplistic view- "we're good, they're evil." That has never worked and never will. Put it this way, however good a cowboy Bush is, he won''t shoot his way out of this.

[joeSoap]

So, do you envisage a situation where these people do as they please and go unpunished? The human rights abuses they perpetrate against their own for not following the will of allah or whoever it is they worship should go ignored?
I don't think so.
The problem here is that the Americans are only seeing dollar signs and using the human rights issue as a smokescreen.
So, what is the solution?? :mad:

[GavinZac]

So, what is the solution?? :mad:

unplug Sky, stop buying the "irish" Mirror and concentrate on why we have a political system based on a civil war?

i dont think there is a quick fix solution. Muslims and christianity have been fighting since mohammeds brother went-a-converting. maybe the solution is to stop the US acting like the world police, its tampering in issues that have nothing to do with it have led to much of the instabilities around the world. but then again, they're gold in them thar dunes.

[joeSoap]

money makes the world go round, as they say, and therefore people will always fight over it, and people like Ken Bigley and others will continue to die...

[joeSoap]

Who was it that actually killed him anyway? Media reports suggest that it was the actual leader of this militant group that carries out the executions himself....sick bast*ard

[GavinZac]

Who was it that actually killed him anyway? Media reports suggest that it was the actual leader of this militant group that carries out the executions himself....sick bast*ard

the media need a new monster.

so of course, to go one better than osama's evil "sitting in a cave" routine, they've decided that this fella actually does the murder himself.

[joeSoap]

yeah, but whats his name?

[GavinZac]

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

or billy as his friends call him.

[fosterdollar]

not very interested in getting into this but in a totally discreditable situation the leader doing the dirty work in a warped way is kinda creditworthy.

[joeSoap]

so you think its cool that the leader personally got his hands dirty on this one?? :eek:
I believe it creditworthy in a normally run company if the MD or senior management roll up their sleeves and pack boxes or work on production lines, but this......please tell me you're kidding me.

[Macy]

not very interested in getting into this but in a totally discreditable situation the leader doing the dirty work in a warped way is kinda creditworthy.
I didn't want to get more moral outrage aimed at me, but I do kinda agree. You don't see Bush*, Blair, Howard etc down on the frontline....

*even when he was drafted!

[fosterdollar]

so you think its cool that the leader personally got his hands dirty on this one?? :eek:
I believe it creditworthy in a normally run company if the MD or senior management roll up their sleeves and pack boxes or work on production lines, but this......please tell me you're kidding me.
:rolleyes: i knew this was gonna happen. Read the post again will you. I said the situation was discreditable... warped way.... yadda, yadda, yadda. I understand all these words mean so little now in the hyperbole age of the tabloid but please try an approach the thing objectively without the "sick *******" rhetoric

[joeSoap]

I know...I know... ;)

[Fair_play_boy]

I hope that this does not sound in any way patronising.
With the exception of the mainly crass posts made in the first page, this thread is seriously and sincerely written.
Hats off to these soccer fans who take time out to reflect on the world around them, and to go public like this with such excellent posts.

[Closed Account 2]

Agreed, and also does anyone else think that the Saddam issue was very personal for Bush because of his fathers inability to finish the job in '91?

Also didn't Saddam (or one of his agents) try and assassinate George Bush Mk1 after the first Gulf War.

Also did anyone see Mark Stein (who i think sometimes writes in the Irish Times) had his article on Bigley pulled by the editor of the Telegraph... even from someone so notorious it was written in pretty poor taste given the recentness and the nature of the whole incident.

[dortie]

If you go to a country to earn 'danger money' then you can expect to possibly get killed.

Not gloating in the mans death but would you go to Iraq tomorrow ??

[ccfcman]

Well now you see if I was to go and make big bucks probably, but to help out hell no :rolleyes:

This thread is starting to get cynically dense!

[joeSoap]

If you go to a country to earn 'danger money' then you can expect to possibly get killed.

Possibly killed....maybe caught in a crossfire, blown up in a bombing, the way most civilians die in wars, yes. To be abducted, abused, tortured and clinically beheaded, then....no!!
:mad:

[GavinZac]

Possibly killed....maybe caught in a crossfire, blown up in a bombing, the way most civilians die in wars, yes. To be abducted, abused, tortured and clinically beheaded, then....no!!
:mad:

everyone knew what the situation was, and theres no war there at the moment. the country is just in chaos and hundreds of people have been abducted. its just this guy is british.

[dortie]

its just this guy is british.

Agree 100%

[joeSoap]

Maybe its just that it gets more publicity over here cos he was British. And we wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't so well publicised.Its a simple fact that, like it or not, we tend to listen more to British related news topics and take an interest in them because they're our only neighbouring country, speak the same language as us, and dare I say it, are very similar to us in most ways....oh shock horror to all of the Brit-Haters, look what I've just said.... :eek:

[joeSoap]

Thank you....yet we are very quick as a nation to dispel any similarities or associations...when it suits us to, or when we've had a few pints too many and decide to be 'patriotic'....

[Jim Smith]

not very interested in getting into this but in a totally discreditable situation the leader doing the dirty work in a warped way is kinda creditworthy.
You've got to ask for who's benefit is he doing this for? O.K . he might be doing it to shock the West but he's probably also doing it for the benefit of other fundamentalists. There has to be a power struggle within that group and by acting (however horrifically) at the front line rather than directing operations hidden in a cave somewhere he is putting down his mark as the leader of the fundamentalist movement.

[Éanna]

So, do you envisage a situation where these people do as they please and go unpunished? The human rights abuses they perpetrate against their own for not following the will of allah or whoever it is they worship should go ignored?
No, if you look at the other posts I've made, I suggested that these people be punished, but also that there is an attempt to change the situation as a whole.