Drugs in Sport [Archive]

Spudulika

13/02/2013, 6:09 AM

I don't take anything Simmons or Reilly write seriously as for years they've been cheerleaders for people who turned out to be dirty. The US media is largely guilty of allowing their own athletes away with all sorts - Janet Evans being given a platform to destroy Michelle Smith and others (despite her being about as clean as a toilet/wall in a 1980's LOI ground).

The Luke John piece is very factual and interesting. There is so much more to come with doping and as mentioned on the LA thread, there are some major cases to hit the fan.

BonnieShels

13/02/2013, 8:56 AM

The reason that Simmons article is interesting is how such volte face has occurred. He says it as much in the article.

It's a spectacular piece of writing considering what has gone on before.

Spudulika

13/02/2013, 11:57 AM

Fair enough, I just don't buy that he or others like him in the US media will truly change. They are able to "speak out" now, but it's just riding the wave of outrage. I'm trying to find a journalist here who wrote a damning piece on biathlon ped's (in 2005) that was re-tweeted by him 2 months ago. The Russians love this sport and yet when skier after skier fails with epo and other crap, it just passes on. I don't see the US or Irish or UK media being any different as they all have to earn their wages.

Dodge

13/02/2013, 12:16 PM

Fair enough, I just don't buy that he or others like him in the US media will truly change. They are able to "speak out" now, but it's just riding the wave of outrage.

Simmons point is that there isn't any outrage in the US. None whatsoever. Look at the Lance issue. They don't care he cheated, they're ****ed he lied while raising money for cancer. The Ray Lewis deer antler spray thign was made fun of one day, and completely forgotten the next.

Jacoby Jones ran 108 yards in 11 seconds after playing a half in American football, wearing full pads on astro turf and NO ONE even considers that he's kuiced up. Its physically impossible for him to do that without help

I listen to Simmons podcasts, and read all his stuff. He's not about investigating athletes or covering the truth. He has opinions and he fits ideas around them. To be fair to him, he has always spoke about PEDs (and other 'science based' help) for Athletes. Be they baseball pitchers looking to keep a career, or Kobe Bryant and the like going to germany regualry for work on their knees. (Dunno if its possible but search for his podcast with malcolm Gladwell where Gladwell said there shouldn't be any drugs testinf "let them do what they want) for example)

A lot of Irish & British journalist and commentators have spoken about how they simply couldn't write a piece like that due to libel laws this side of the atlantic.

As for Rick Reilly, he's a complete and utter ****ebag

Spudulika

13/02/2013, 12:46 PM

Dodge, Simmons, to be fair, is an unusual one, though if he was going to do something to damage his career, he wouldn't. There is an allowance in the US media to let people rant, even if they're lying (Mikey Graham), wrong (CNN) or just mental (any one of a hundred left and right wingers), so long as they get listeners, viewers, readers....it's grand. I don't think they will address anything.

I get what you're saying about Jones, but when you have Bolt sailing down the track and pulling up short of breaking 9seconds, we're all told to believe it's natural. Then when he gets busted it's a scandal for a bit and disappears.

Yanks get outraged that their sports are "tarnished", but it's all down to money.

Reilly, agreed, he has acted as a cheerleader for so many scumbags, before turning on them, and I'm just tired of him.

I don't buy the excuse about libel, if there is proof it can be pushed via authorities, but journos will too often look to get a scoop than actually do something constructive. I know the laws/protections on whistleblowers are weak, but it has to start.

Dodge

13/02/2013, 1:27 PM

I don't buy the excuse about libel, if there is proof it can be pushed via authorities

But that's exactly the point, there is ZERO evidence that Ray Lewis took PEDs ro recover from injury and go to the Superbowl, which is what Simmosn claims he believes to be true. It simply wouldn't be allowed in the UK (or here)

geysir

13/02/2013, 9:30 PM

That's the American way, Obama is an alien from space until he has to provide proof that he isn't.

Spudulika

14/02/2013, 4:43 AM

But that's exactly the point, there is ZERO evidence that Ray Lewis took PEDs ro recover from injury and go to the Superbowl, which is what Simmosn claims he believes to be true. It simply wouldn't be allowed in the UK (or here)

You're correct, however there are a lot of ways journalists can find out about ped's and other ways of cheating, casting dispersions on others is easy, better to be netbased and can be guided by vested interests, or insanity. The likes of Declan Hill, Paul Kimmage and David Walsh (just a few faves) are actual journalists where they interview, research, dig and discover - not just give opinions. Which is why I don't take much of the US talking heads rhetoric seriously.

geysir

14/02/2013, 8:07 AM

Are the boundaries of 'legal' therapy defined, that an athlete like Ray Lewis can and cannot use, to heal his torn tricep while he was injured and out of the game for a season?

Considering what passes for normal (destructive) therapy as told by Danny Mills to deal with small scale injures in a Telegraph article
Players would do almost anything to get an edge (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9858898/Former-Leeds-and-England-defender-Danny-Mills-says-players-would-do-almost-anything-to-get-an-edge.html)

“When I was at Middlesbrough, I had painkilling injections for six months in a really bad toe before games and at half-time just to get through games. I’d wake up at midnight in agony, toe an absolute balloon, throbbing.
“I played when I shouldn’t have done. I had injections to numb the pain, Cortisone to get me fit for games. It was rife. Cortisone was good but only if injected into pockets of fluid. If injected direct into a tendon or muscle you had to have 10 days of doing nothing. That wasn’t understood in the early days. It was a quick fix. That muscle would start to break down because you were hiding the problem. It was abused.

Danny makes a case for football players to attend a drug detox clinic in the post season period :)

Mills believes that an onset of post-tournament lethargy was connected to the discontinuing of these legal treatments as well as the usual emotional dip after such a major event.
“The week after the World Cup, I was in Spain on holiday and came down with a massive crash. I’ve never felt so bad in all my life,” he said.
“The body was used to getting all this stuff and was now deprived so it shut down. I was fluey, lethargic, feeling low. When I woke up, I couldn’t breathe properly. My body ached all over. It lasted a week. The players should know to wean themselves off it.”

Dodge

14/02/2013, 8:29 AM

Are the boundaries of 'legal' therapy defined, that an athlete like Ray Lewis can and cannot use, to heal his torn tricep while he was injured and out of the game for a season?

There's certainly loads of grey areas (Spurs manager recently spoke about a process they did to Jermaine Defoe's blood taht sounded an awful lot like blood doping) but in Lewis' cases he's alleged to have taken that Deer antler spray, which contains a banned substance.

Charlie Darwin

14/02/2013, 9:03 AM

BonnieShels

14/02/2013, 9:10 AM

Or deer antler spray is an 'innocent' cover for proper drugs.

I've only heard that mentioned once on OTB when the Oz drugs story broke and not one person bar you Charlie, has mentioned it since.

Imagine the shoitestorm if they actually bothered to adress the problem in the US big-4 or in the EPL.

geysir

14/02/2013, 9:16 AM

There's certainly loads of grey areas (Spurs manager recently spoke about a process they did to Jermaine Defoe's blood taht sounded an awful lot like blood doping) but in Lewis' cases he's alleged to have taken that Deer antler spray, which contains a banned substance.

So there are restrictions on what an athlete can use to recover from a long term injury even though he is effectively out of competition and whatever he takes cannot in any way be deemed to be performance enhancing?

BonnieShels

14/02/2013, 9:23 AM

So there are restrictions on what an athlete can use to recover from a long term injury even though he is effectively out of competition and whatever he takes cannot in any way be deemed to be performance enhancing?

You make a good point geysir and you do play devil's advocate well, but by using those drugs they are giving themselves an advantage over others.

If say, there was a rule where you were out of competition and you could do what you want how would that work? You would have periodical "injuries" in order for players to get a boost every now and then.

Unfortuntaely it has to be an all-in or an all-out situation. And besides if you want to partake in any sport you should be prepared to abide by the rules of that sport no matter what. That the rules in NFL are slightly less stringent isn't any reason to gloss over what we all think and thought about Lewis. If you watch that Broncos game again it defies logic.
It was almost Paul McGrath-Giants Stadium-esque.

osarusan

14/02/2013, 9:27 AM

So there are restrictions on what an athlete can use to recover from a long term injury even though he is effectively out of competition and whatever he takes cannot in any way be deemed to be performance enhancing?
I can see what you're saying, but what happens when the treatment helps the player recover from a long-term injury from which he wouldn't otherwise have recovered so quickly?

I remember an article in which Zidane talked about the injections they used to get to enable them to stay fit for a season, and his point was that how else did people expect players to be able to play 70 top level games a season.

Maybe PED can refer to performance enabling as well as performance enhancing.

geysir

14/02/2013, 9:44 AM

I can see what you're saying, but what happens when the treatment helps the player recover from a long-term injury from which he wouldn't otherwise have recovered so quickly?

I remember an article in which Zidane talked about the injections they used to get to enable them to stay fit for a season, and his point was that how else did people expect players to be able to play 70 top level games a season.

Maybe PED can refer to performance enabling as well as performance enhancing.
Lets say, an athlete, certified out of competition with a certified long term injury.
It may well be a grey area but yes I think there should be some regulation to protect the athlete from using a proven destructive therapy in order to regain fitness. But I would not regard an infringement here as anything close to the class A cheat, doping in competition/training, doping to gain an advantage, such as to do with performance or/and recovery from exertions on the field.

Then you have the legal cheat as Danny Mills explained, the short term injured player, uses steroids/pain killers, not what you'd call performance enhancing but is a destructive therapy, used for short term gain. The pressure (financial and sporting) on a professional player are immense to get back on the field of play.

Dodge

14/02/2013, 10:04 AM

The pressure (financial and sporting) on a professional player are immense to get back on the field of play.

Absolutely, and even within these shores, amateurs too are clearly taking 'supplements' of varying dregrees of closeness to the allowed levels. Part of EPO's appeal when it first came out wasn't that it helped on-the-day performance, but rather it helped in training before the season started. So a cyclist could theoretically push himself to levels he couldn't without help, but that his body would reap the benefits of this extra training when the EPO had left his system

It seems many have decided that somebody having a complicated surgery (like inserting someone else's cartilage in their knee) isn't cheating but somebody rubbing a cream on their knee is. I'm not sure about that one either.

Co-incidentally WADA were speaking in Dublin yesterday. 8 failed tests from 787 tests, inclding 3 tug-of-warers and one LOI player.

http://balls.ie/football/facts-and-figures-from-anti-doping-testing-in-ireland-in-2012/

Very interesting to see that 8 GAA inter country teams missed tests without any sanction

Charlie Darwin

14/02/2013, 10:07 AM

Absolutely, and even within these shores, amateurs too are clearly taking 'supplements' of varying dregrees of closeness to the allowed levels. Part of EPO's appeal when it first came out wasn't that it helped on-the-day performance, but rather it helped in training before the season started. So a cyclist could theoretically push himself to levels he couldn't without help, but that his body would reap the benefits of this extra training when the EPO had left his system

It seems many have decided that somebody having a complicated surgery (like inserting someone else's cartilage in their knee) isn't cheating but somebody rubbing a cream on their knee is. I'm not sure about that one either.

Co-incidentally WADA were speaking in Dublin yesterday. 8 failed tests from 787 tests, inclding 3 tug-of-warers and one LOI player.

http://balls.ie/football/facts-and-figures-from-anti-doping-testing-in-ireland-in-2012/

Very interesting to see that 8 GAA inter country teams missed tests without any sanction
Grimes I assume?

geysir

14/02/2013, 10:31 AM

I have always had my suspicions about those pumped up gym monkeys playing for Kildare, the Dubs and Cork.
But that could also be the sore loser in me :)

BonnieShels

14/02/2013, 10:37 AM

I have always had my suspicions about those pumped up gym monkeys playing for Kildare, the Dubs and Cork.
But that could also be the sore loser in me :)

You'd be right to.

I've still not come around to one of our players, since retired who in 2009 turned in some incredible out of this world performances despite being pretty gash for a the proceeding 3-4 years. It wasn't a coincidence I'd say that his pasty flabby body turned into a example of raw muscle in this particular season.

Spudulika

14/02/2013, 11:43 AM

I was pulled up recently when what I'd said (and written) was twisted by a person with a gripe - not against me for a change but with testing - about "silent bans". Now, I'll be straight up and say they exist, I'm certain of it, do I have 100% proof, yes. Can it be proved in a court of law, no. Why? Because the athletes were "injured" or some other excuse. Now one person was banned and it wasn't announced. She was done by the national olympic council after a tip off (by her training partner who was also pulled but turned stoolie. They told her that she was gone for 6 months yet the sports ruling body were not informed.

If you look at athletes who suddenly drop off the radar and come back stronger and bigger and with noticeable body changes (not just from turning from flab into fab), someone somewhere has to have a light bulb go off over their head. Rafa Nadal is a great example. And even a basic ped, one to make you sharper, more alert, they're so overused in some sports that it's just the norm, and without them we wouldn't see the rallies, effort or fury that we do. It's humanly impossible to do some things that tennis players do (for example), not just once, but over and over in a match. When courts, equipment and balls all made the game faster, humans didn't suddenly develop quicker brains, but we're led to believe that we progressed naturally.

I still remember John Giles saying (after a Keane led charge at a referee) that players were taking things to make them behave that way. He was very clear, very concise and open. But there's too much money to lose in big sports like football and tennis to make a fuss. Better to batter athletics and cycling. Or sports over in the US.

Spudulika

14/02/2013, 6:31 PM

A tennis player I've met frequently copped a 6 month ban today - backdated to October, which means she's back on court in April. She claims that she was caught out by a contaminated supplement, though she works with a sports scientist that has been known to "look after" athletes. Zahalova Strycova's husband was caught at Domodedovo airport with a bag full of "supplements" which he claimed were for his own use. He's his wife's coach.

Mr A

15/02/2013, 10:25 AM

Much to the surprise of nobody at all, BBC Africa tweeted:

One of #Kenya's most successful runners, Moses Kiptanui, says #doping is widespread among the country's athletes.

Meanwhile, WADA critical of the Premier League and other major leagues also:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/premier-league-in-doping-firing-line-222643.html

Macy

15/02/2013, 1:30 PM

There was an interesting bit on doping/ fuentes last night on 5live, featuring Jeremy Whittle amongst others. It's a total disgrace that even the judge is complicit in protected every sport but cycling from Feuntes revealing all his clients.

Sports like tennis, football and rugby and many of their supporters are just delusional when it comes to doping - coming out with bs about not any real benefits, too much skill, doesn't help concentration (despite there being specific ped's for concentration). At least the American sports clearly don't give a toss - I prefer that to the hypocrisy to be honest.

Dodge

15/02/2013, 2:44 PM

I only found out last week that the Fuentes trail isn't about whether this is cheating or not, its a trial about whether he acted in the best interests for his clients as a doctor. Its a health issue there, rather than one of whether he helped sports stars cheat or not

Mr A

15/02/2013, 3:22 PM

I think the law in Spain is different now, but at the time doping wasn't a crime.

Mr A

16/02/2013, 10:12 AM

A general piece on doping in sport that points to organised crime involvement in doping: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/15/drugs-wada-organised-crime?CMP=twt_gu

Mr A

18/02/2013, 9:27 AM

Channel 4 report on Fuentes / Operation Puerto trial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDiQXpKG-oM

Manzano claims he saw 1 Spanish and 2 Brazilian internationals attending Fuentes.

Spudulika

21/02/2013, 4:57 AM

The ITF (International Tennis Federation) are finally taking action and making contact with every player who attended TenisVal. It's kind of like putting up fences when the Louth fans are chasing the ref, but sure, it looks good.

BonnieShels

21/02/2013, 5:25 PM

Tony Thompson says that that drugs should be legalised.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/21531723

Spudulika

21/02/2013, 7:28 PM

If anyone has read about the "tragic" story of a young star quitting over online abuse, roll your eyes. There is a certain "clinic" in Miami that very recently has been uncovered as a hotbed of PED use and this young lady was a frequent visitor, along with a number of other stars. Sick of this crap with players jumping before getting pushed, then coming back again later on.

Charlie Darwin

21/02/2013, 7:40 PM

It's all a racket, Spud :)

Mr A

07/03/2013, 3:11 PM

So Tiger Woods has a dodgy doctor: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/anthony-galea-pleads-guilty-drugs_n_891672.html

osarusan

07/03/2013, 4:14 PM

7 kids of his own! It's a wonder he had any performance-enhancing drugs left.

Dodge

07/03/2013, 4:35 PM

So Tiger Woods has a dodgy doctor: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/anthony-galea-pleads-guilty-drugs_n_891672.html

That story is nearly 2 years old at this stage.

Mr A

07/03/2013, 5:00 PM

Ah.. I saw it tweeted today and did not notice the published date :o

Mr A

08/04/2013, 12:45 PM

BonnieShels

08/04/2013, 10:46 PM

A piece on doping in rugby: http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2013/4/7/sports/12938658&sec=sports

No surprise whatsoever there, except that it has taken so long to even look like being uncovered.

Bloody ex-hookers are always blowing the whistle as soon as they are no longer on the game.

Macy

09/04/2013, 1:57 PM

A piece on doping in rugby: http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2013/4/7/sports/12938658&sec=sports

No surprise whatsoever there, except that it has taken so long to even look like being uncovered.
Any pro sport that doesn't blood test or do long term profiling is only paying lipservice to the "fight" against doping.

Spudulika

10/04/2013, 9:54 PM

I don't think there is any doubt that players are juiced in rugby, imo England are possibly the worst culprits in the Northern Hemisphere, though they are following the NZ/Aus/SAF leads. It's unnatural. Rugby is going the way of american football which is tainted beyond recovery.

I'm with Tommy Tiernan, let's have a drugged olympics for the craic. See Usain Bolt not pull up and worry about being caught.

Charlie Darwin

10/04/2013, 10:01 PM

I don't think there is any doubt that players are juiced in rugby, imo England are possibly the worst culprits in the Northern Hemisphere, though they are following the NZ/Aus/SAF leads.
France aren't far off. Wales seem to be slipping down that avenue too.

Watch the U20 games in the Six Nations. The Irish, Italian and Scottish players look their age, but the French and English guys are just monsters and you just can't get that big at that age without some sort of help.

I think South Africa and New Zealand could plead that it's genetics at work. These South African kids are growing up on farms and I think the polynesian body type just tends to be a bit stockier and more robust, particularly in the teenage years. You'll notice the proportion of pacific islanders in the NZ sides tends to decline as they get older.

Macy

10/04/2013, 10:16 PM

Don't see how you can give a pass to some countries and not others, especially given the rumours. France and England have a much bigger playing pool, so bigger u20's isn't definitive to me.

There's more money and more incentive in other field sports. Follow and check out giggs boson on twitter for background on the sport that has us on this website!

Charlie Darwin

10/04/2013, 10:19 PM

Oh, I'm not giving a pass to some countries, I'm saying it's more prevalent in some countries but happening everywhere. Unless you're addressing Spuds.

Even accounting for bigger playing populations, and the fact size is more important at age group-level, there's no reason why every single player should be bigger than his opposite number and I see these guys are they are physically every bit the match of the 30 year olds they're playing with. You get your freaks like George North, but you shouldn't have 15 of them.

Macy

10/04/2013, 10:24 PM

Both of ye really - the saffies are probably the most rumoured about! Genetically, most of their players are west European.

Charlie Darwin

10/04/2013, 10:37 PM

Yeah, but the majority of their players are farm boys, think John Hayes rather than Ronan O'Gara.

Spudulika

11/04/2013, 1:13 PM

I don't think it matters about the standing of the sport in a country. 2 Croatian rugby players failed drugs tests (for PEDs) and the younger one was plying his trade in France at the time. I've yet to see or hear it, though he supposedly gave a long interview about being put under pressure by the team doctor to "get with the program". If I didn't know him or the guys he works out with in Croatia I'd have believed him.

I even look askew at football now, these supposed "kids" coming into the game from Academies are massive!