Drugs in Sport

[Mr A]

A piece on Pro Boxing. Not a pretty picture: http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxing-news/the-ped-mess-part-one

[Real ale Madrid]

Paul Kimmage Tweeted today that Erik Morales and Alberto Contador must have the same Butcher!

[Mr A]

Kimmage asking the questions the vast majority of sports journos simply won't. http://www.independent.ie/sport/inherent-decency-may-be-the-most-effective-masking-agent-of-them-all-30409273.html

[BonnieShels]

The willingness to look the other way is quite staggering.

No one can tell me that Barca and Real aren't dealing in some nefarious chemical activities? That's not to mention other teams.

And even closer to home there is of course a couple of inter-county players who we all know have suspicion hanging over them. One in particular's renaissance in 2009 still annoys me because of the shirt he was wearing was my own county's.

If Dublin's regime isn't clean I would want it exposed. So all the All-Ireland's in the world would never make it worth it to me.

Those willing to look the other way are always the cause of most societal problems. Drugs in sport is another example of this.

[BonnieShels]

Rough Rider starts in 10 mins...

http://www.rte.ie/tv/programmes/roughrider.html

[Mr A]

http://www.goal.com/en-ke/news/4528/internationals/2014/07/24/4981615/football-should-quadruple-blood-testing-in-doping-fight-wada

Some very worrying stats.


The Italian Olympic Committee (CONI) did more blood tests on footballers than any organisation in 2013 with 232 in-competition blood tests out of a total of 2896 doping tests conducted in total - just over 8%. Organisations in top football countries like Spain, the Netherlands and Brazil, meanwhile, failed to conduct any.

Basically you could be doping away with EPO, HGH and transfusions in those countries with very little prospect of testing catching you out.

[Mr A]

At least there's always tennis to make football look good.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/international-tennis-federation-concealed-marin-cilics-failed-doping-test-20130925-2uczb.html

[BonnieShels]

At least there's always tennis to make football look good.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/international-tennis-federation-concealed-marin-cilics-failed-doping-test-20130925-2uczb.html


Cilic was handed a nine-month ban by the ITF for testing positive for the stimulant nikethamide, which a panel found he took inadvertently in tablets bought by his mother.

How does a professional sportsman, who is meant to be subject to drug-controls inadvertently take his mother's drugs?

I have never ever managed to inadvertently take a drug in my life and I'm not subject to any limits. Absolute farce.

With Nadal pulling out again for the US Open you can't but help wonder at all.

[Mr A]

Yes, such explanations are generally absolute horse poo- better to look stupid or naive than actually admit cheating. It's their responsibility to control what they ingest, even if you believe them.

Jonathan Tiernan Locke's defence recently was inventive at least- he claims his abnormal bio passport reading was due to getting absolutely hammered. 2 days before riding the world championship!

[Mr A]

A piece on the joke that is testing in the NFL: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/08/nfl-drug-testing-policies/#article-copy

More on Padova investigation in cycling: http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/padovaferrari-investigation-35-pro-riders-named-astana-and-radioshack-suspected-of-systematic-doping/

[Mr A]

Meanwhile- things are not looking great in Russia, to understate things massively: http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/12/09/from-russia-with-dope

[Spudulika]

The German documentary on Russian sports was a shocker, but it's nothing new. They also revealed a number of other athletes that are high profile and dodgy. In Kenya and East Africa it seems pretty rampant, and I still feel sick from the Late Late Show (okay, it's Tubridy, so it could be any) when Usain "I'm clean" Bolt's agent was on and not a single question was asked about doping - just when the scandal about the lack of testing in Jamaica broke. Kimmage is right to talk about journo's being fans with typewriters, worse is when a government facilitate (like Russia and the USA).

But nothing will be done. I reported my suspicions about a tennis player, for her own good, and I ended up getting threats and told to shut up by the authorities. Nothing new, but it was so clear that they were out to protect the good name and the other players she was in training with. When you see body changes in a person that go far beyond natural training, it's a joke.

[Mr A]

And yet more on athletics: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/11285428/Revealed-how-Olympic-champions-three-Britons-and-39-countries-have-been-dragged-into-doping-scandal.html

[Crosby87]

But nothing will be done. I reported my suspicions about a tennis player, for her own good, and I ended up getting threats and told to shut up by the authorities.

Really? Are you in the sports biz or just a random fan?

[Spudulika]

Really? Are you in the sports biz or just a random fan?

I was in the sports biz, now thankfully just a fan. Don't really want to go back into the business as the more you think you're making a difference, the worse it gets.

There are far worse things than drugs in tennis, but it is rampant. I know it sounds a bit twee, but it is almost impossible to break the top-50 women's without doing something. And as for competing at the top level, it really is something amazing. The sheer science of it, timing, reactions, stamina, they have moved to a point like cycling did/has.

[Crosby87]

So you might think that Serena for example is someone you would question? What about Venus though? She's a twig.

[Spudulika]

For the forum's sake I'd not name any people directly, there was the strange episode with Serena where she locked herself in her panic room and refused to be tested, and nothing happened. There are many suspicious performers, a lot of players changing bodyshape, especially when they train with, or in, certain clubs. Players like Kuznetzova failed numerous tests, other players have failed but gotten let off by their national organisations, or been let off. There are coaches still sought out, like Van Harpen, who have been banned from some countries for being caught with illegal substances. The ITF are a sketchy bunch, so nothing gets said.

One small thing that has had me wondering for a few months. Why did Paul Kimmage really pull out of writing a certain book. Was it really over an article, or something he found out? A player beefing up can be natural, but.....

[Charlie Darwin]

I dunno, if Kimmage had found something out he'd come out and say it or at least make it clear what he couldn't say.

[Spudulika]

I dunno, if Kimmage had found something out he'd come out and say it or at least make it clear what he couldn't say.

I thought the same Charlie, at the time. It didn't make sense, but....it just seemed very sudden. I watched the docu-film of Kimmage going back to the TDF and was both impressed and worried by him. I remember reading his book in a couple of days and it was just sad. The sad thing is that only the weakest or least profitable get thrown under the bus, or the ones bet protecgted by buddies in the meeja.

[Crosby87]

But wouldn't players in the WTF for example who clearly based on body type like say Sharapova are clean looking try to rat out the ones who dope to the press? I mean if there were concrete evidence here in the states that a certain someone was doping reporters like Filip Bondy for example would be all over wanting to print it...After Lance it all changed. Everyone knows Clemens is lying for example.
With MLB they aren't even voting in guys like Mike Piazza who is getting so screwed if he never did steroids.

[Spudulika]

But wouldn't players in the WTF for example who clearly based on body type like say Sharapova are clean looking try to rat out the ones who dope to the press? I mean if there were concrete evidence here in the states that a certain someone was doping reporters like Filip Bondy for example would be all over wanting to print it...After Lance it all changed. Everyone knows Clemens is lying for example.
With MLB they aren't even voting in guys like Mike Piazza who is getting so screwed if he never did steroids.

You are talking like a logical person! But...these are not logical people. Like our TDs. Years ago I sat in the galery of the Dail just after Bertie's finances were plastered all over the place. But the debate never went near it. I had it explained to me that it's just not the done thing.

The people who are most likely to speak out are the ones who refuse to take drugs and complain, or the ones who get caught and tell the truth. Floyd Landis started telling tales and was labelled a cheat and liar, Odesnik (in tennis) the same. The tennis media are terrible and lapdogs, coaches get away with all sorts and nothing is said. It's just a sad fact.

[Crosby87]

When you really see what sociopaths they are is when they go crazy denying it and then years later admit it....Armstrongs denials in retrospect are insane. I mean, literally. The man was insane.

[Spudulika]

When you really see what sociopaths they are is when they go crazy denying it and then years later admit it....Armstrongs denials in retrospect are insane. I mean, literally. The man was insane.

Sociopaths is the best word. Fine, money, fortune etc is important, but at least keep it quiet.

[Mr A]

I have great admiration for Paul Kimmage, but the guy is cantankerous. Not hard to see why someone would find him hard to work with.

At the same time I think rugby has major, major issues.

[Charlie Darwin]

Rugby is also probably small enough for him to take on, whereas soccer would be a much more complex minefield, both scientifically and politically.

[Crosby87]

So for a complete novice like me about rugby.....you would suspect steriods similar to the nfl or WWE?
Or A Rod? Rugby players seem leaner to me tho.

[Charlie Darwin]

Would be fairly similar, yeah. There'd be muscle gain drugs and then, probably worse, drugs that aid in the superhuman recovery from injury. Soccer would have the latter too but probably more of the cycling-type EPOs that enable your body to peak twice or more every week.

[Crosby87]

See...the thing is going to be how they all are in 30 years. Or 20, whatever. Like, if they are all fine its going to be kind of mad.
On the other hand for pure chinese made steroids we already see what has happened Vis a Vis WWE. Those guys have dropped dead one way or the other (often taking others along for the ride) like crazy for going on 4 decades now. I never really watched wrestling but I laugh when people say it is "fake". The story lines are fake. Those people are the best athletes in the world. You cant fake lifting a 400 pound piece of muscle up over your head and then having him crash onto you via a ladder onto a table etc....

[Spudulika]

When we talk about drugs or doping, we should use the more appropriate PED, this can cover pain killers, caffeine etc. Pain killers have a far more deadly and longer term damaging effect for athletes. Having read the Roy Keane book there are questions to be asked, Alan Quinlan had his "I never saw nuttin'" IT article, which was tosh. Who of us playing sports hasn't taken a painkiller before a match, or after, just because we want to be involved - it's part of our human stupidity (I rank top in this).

However with rugby, there are a range of drugs taken. Drugs to do the training, drugs to build the stamina, drugs to get you buzzing, it's been around for years (in football too). And all that matters is taking part, having a chance of glory, getting paid etc - so the long term effects are not considered.

Crosby, an example from a former client who we had move to Ireland to try improve her game. She had been sent to France by her parents as a kid, over trained and hurt her shoulder. Then with terrible training techniques she injured her ankle (tore ligaments). She didn't train properly as a result and one coach had her change her service technique to a point where she was going to end up with serious injuries. We got her to Dublin, put her working with Garry Cahill and suddenly she bounced. But apart from tennis and mentality, we worked on her diet and fitness. She complained always about a stiff ankle after a work out, but our plan was to build up the muscles and stabilise the joint. She was refused massages in Glasnevin and we made sure she didn't get them right before or after training/matches.

We chose not to renew our contract with her as she was proving real trouble, and lo and behold, she went back to massages. She went over on her ankle in 2011 and destroyed it. I agreed to help her recover, but when I saw who was around her (doctors and coaches), I walked away. She gets injections to get on court, she does training that will lead to long term damage, she has changed her body shape/muscle in a very short space of time while working with coaches we know are dirty. She is winning. Last week I met her brother in Moscow (he plays hockey), he made a joke about now having an older brother! Nothing will happen as the WTA and ITF are scared of losing money. THe long term health and well being of those they are supposed to care for is not important. Ditto for NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL, EPL, IRB etc.

[Spudulika]

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/two-more-kenyan-athletes-fail-drugs-tests-1.2038746

[Mr A]

On the Kimmage / BOD issue- and argument over an interview apparently. http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1217/667475-uk-airports/

[Spudulika]

Saw that one alright, it seems strange. Something smells with it and I wonder what will come down the line. I hope the god the man, BOD, was clean, but I hoped the same with Lance Armstrong.

[Stuttgart88]

Ian McGeechan thinks rugby hasn't got a drug problem

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11291422/Doping-in-rugby-union-I-am-not-being-naive-our-sport-does-not-have-a-drugs-problem.html

RFU's Ian Richie thinks there is a drug problem

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2863758/Rugby-s-drug-problem-exposed-RFU-boss-admits-realise-s-issue-addressing-it.html

[Spudulika]

A rake of Russian athletes provisionally suspended/banned with hopes of new medals for Irish athletes. It is not in the least bit surprising (to anyone with half a brain) but it's being spun in Russia that it's part of an ongoing campaign against the country. There was one decent comment I heard from a credible sports journo last evening - "Russia has fallen behind and out of favour, fix that and we reduce our doping cases by 50%". That it is Russian distance athletes getting caught is not a surprise, just surprising that there are not more athletes in distance events faling under the axe.

[Real ale Madrid]

Former Sky Cycling doctor Geert Leinders banned for life by the USADA.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-handed-life-time-ban-by-usada-for-doping-offences

[Spudulika]

Real Ale, was Sky the team who claimed to be totally drug free? Who were so clean that you could see your face in them, despite their beating other teams who were caught doping? This goes back to something I thought was really odd at the time when there was the election for the UCI. Pat McQuaid was done over by a man who oversaw a build up in cycling leading up to London 2012, with a number of cyclists from his federation being done, the leading team (Sky) being done, and a complete breakthrough in track and road cycling in the country, with some real big changes in cyclists.......

Tennis is getting worrying, very worrying.

[DannyInvincible]

Sky, as you'd expect, claim to have a zero-tolerance, but if a team was running a clandestine doping programme, is it likely they'd have all their riders adhering to it? My cousin rides for Sky, but I've not spoken to him in person for a few years and, I have to admit, I follow the sport and his fortunes fairly loosely.

[Spudulika]

Sky, as you'd expect, claim to have a zero-tolerance, but if a team was running a clandestine doping programme, is it likely they'd have all their riders adhering to it? My cousin rides for Sky, but I've not spoken to him in person for a few years and, I have to admit, I follow the sport and his fortunes fairly loosely.

It's very difficult to figure out what is happening in cycling. I feel bad for the sport (and athletics) that they are getting picked on. It is simply down to media interest. The same "research" is not done with soccer, GAA, tennis and rugby. There is enough going on, enough gossip, scandals, but they do not investigate in any way shape or form. Tennis is terrible, there is a complete omerta among journalists on certain subjects and one major one is doping.

You know, if you were to ask you cousin - are you taking PEDs, he'd say no, we're taking vitamins (if he answered and if you asked). There is a divide in the brain of elite athletes to justify what they do. I don't remember exactly where I read it (I think it was Keane's book on sport), that top level athletes are borderline or actual sociopaths.

[DannyInvincible]

It's very difficult to figure out what is happening in cycling. I feel bad for the sport (and athletics) that they are getting picked on. It is simply down to media interest. The same "research" is not done with soccer, GAA, tennis and rugby. There is enough going on, enough gossip, scandals, but they do not investigate in any way shape or form. Tennis is terrible, there is a complete omerta among journalists on certain subjects and one major one is doping.

You know, if you were to ask you cousin - are you taking PEDs, he'd say no, we're taking vitamins (if he answered and if you asked). There is a divide in the brain of elite athletes to justify what they do. I don't remember exactly where I read it (I think it was Keane's book on sport), that top level athletes are borderline or actual sociopaths.

There may be closer examination of cycling, but is it fair to frame it as the sport getting picked on? Could it be argued that the intense scrutiny ensures there's a greater demand for teams and their cyclists to stay clean or for the authorities to enhance their investigative procedures, which would benefit the sport overall, assuming we all want it to be drugs-free? Or do you think it's possible that many cyclists, who may well be clean, are victims now of an unreasonable suspicion that tarnishes their reputation almost by default simply by virtue of being professional cyclists?

I suppose it's human (rather than necessarily sociopathic) to attempt to rationalise one's position or actions. It's a matter of perspective and one's personal values and standards are derived from their circumstances and context. Within cycling, there may be a collective moral conformity to a type of group-think (that is, if doping is as widespread as is often suspected). When one gradually finds themselves in a position where perceived abuse or exploitation of some nature is the natural order of things, they'll likely try and deceive/justify it until continuing to deceive/justify it is no longer viable or until it actually becomes self-damaging. I suppose Lance Armstrong is a good example of that. He was convinced that he was right all along - he was also protected by others within the sport and in the know encouraging him and telling him he was right - whilst others, especially those outside of cycling, might view him now as a total sociopath. Personally, I have very little time for him and would be sympathetic to the latter view, but that's no more than my opinion. I'm sure plenty of others have simply never been caught out, whilst whistle-blowers are exceptionally rare, lest they be seen to be diverging from the orthodoxy and shunned by their colleagues and profession. Would most pro cyclists openly or publicly admit to taking "vitamins" even? Wouldn't that needlessly arouse suspicion?

I was watching a BBC programme, 'The Super-Rich and Us (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04xw2x8/the-superrich-and-us-episode-1)', the other day and it was interesting to listen in interview to how those who were benefiting materially from the way British society is presently organised (the extraordinarily-rich upper percentiles getting exponentially richer and the poor - or everyone else even - getting relatively poorer, with huge variations in economic equality, prospects and opportunity) rationalised the accumulation of vast and astronomical (obscene to some) levels of wealth at the expense of the remainder of society; "wealth benefits all and filters down (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gv47v)", "wealth is not finite and spurs further economic growth"... They were absolutely convinced of the righteousness of their privileged lifestyle, even with an explicit awareness of the impoverished, probably because people have an innate desire to do what they personally think is right, reasonable or just or to at least convince themselves and others that what they're doing is right. I'm not really convinced that people do "bad" simply for the sake of doing "bad".

You may well be aware of Oxford bio-ethicist Julian Savulescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Savulescu)? My brother mentioned him to me after having encountered him on the BBC's 'Hardtalk' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01m5rg5) (where he also made a case for genetic engineering). He's very compelling in argument and has long been trying to make the case for the permitting of performance-enhancing drugs in sport (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Julian+Savulescu&oq=Julian+Savulescu&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j69i61&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=Julian+Savulescu+doping). As he says, the rules in place are completely arbitrary and ultimately derived from a whichever sporting fraternity favouring one particular set of values over another set; neither set being necessarily, inherently or objectively more right or wrong than the other.

[Spudulika]

Head of Russian Athletics jumped as he was being push. Maslakov (a real piece of work) was under pressure to go, but hung on until this week. Mutko wanted to clean house, thisis a start. Russian football will be soon.

[Spudulika]

There may be closer examination of cycling, but is it fair to frame it as the sport getting picked on? Could it be argued that the intense scrutiny ensures there's a greater demand for teams and their cyclists to stay clean or for the authorities to enhance their investigative procedures, which would benefit the sport overall, assuming we all want it to be drugs-free? Or do you think it's possible that many cyclists, who may well be clean, are victims now of an unreasonable suspicion that tarnishes their reputation almost by default simply by virtue of being professional cyclists?

I suppose it's human (rather than necessarily sociopathic) to attempt to rationalise one's position or actions. It's a matter of perspective and one's personal values and standards are derived from their circumstances and context. Within cycling, there may be a collective moral conformity to a type of group-think (that is, if doping is as widespread as is often suspected). When one gradually finds themselves in a position where perceived abuse or exploitation of some nature is the natural order of things, they'll likely try and deceive/justify it until continuing to deceive/justify it is no longer viable or until it actually becomes self-damaging. I suppose Lance Armstrong is a good example of that. He was convinced that he was right all along - he was also protected by others within the sport and in the know encouraging him and telling him he was right - whilst others, especially those outside of cycling, might view him now as a total sociopath. Personally, I have very little time for him and would be sympathetic to the latter view, but that's no more than my opinion. I'm sure plenty of others have simply never been caught out, whilst whistle-blowers are exceptionally rare, lest they be seen to be diverging from the orthodoxy and shunned by their colleagues and profession. Would most pro cyclists openly or publicly admit to taking "vitamins" even? Wouldn't that needlessly arouse suspicion?

I was watching a BBC programme, 'The Super-Rich and Us (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04xw2x8/the-superrich-and-us-episode-1)', the other day and it was interesting to listen in interview to how those who were benefiting materially from the way British society is presently organised (the extraordinarily-rich upper percentiles getting exponentially richer and the poor - or everyone else even - getting relatively poorer, with huge variations in economic equality, prospects and opportunity) rationalised the accumulation of vast and astronomical (obscene to some) levels of wealth at the expense of the remainder of society; "wealth benefits all and filters down (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gv47v)", "wealth is not finite and spurs further economic growth"... They were absolutely convinced of the righteousness of their privileged lifestyle, even with an explicit awareness of the impoverished, probably because people have an innate desire to do what they personally think is right, reasonable or just or to at least convince themselves and others that what they're doing is right. I'm not really convinced that people do "bad" simply for the sake of doing "bad".

You may well be aware of Oxford bio-ethicist Julian Savulescu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Savulescu)? My brother mentioned him to me after having encountered him on the BBC's 'Hardtalk' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01m5rg5) (where he also made a case for genetic engineering). He's very compelling in argument and has long been trying to make the case for the permitting of performance-enhancing drugs in sport (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Julian+Savulescu&oq=Julian+Savulescu&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j69i61&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=Julian+Savulescu+doping). As he says, the rules in place are completely arbitrary and ultimately derived from a whichever sporting fraternity favouring one particular set of values over another set; neither set being necessarily, inherently or objectively more right or wrong than the other.

Danny, I use picked on as it seems fair in the wider context. Rugby has been rotten for many years, soccer too, yet they escape due to status and money. Tennis and Golf are also problem areas but again - status and money. Boxing is a problem sport and in America it slides from the radar despite obvious signs. UFC the same, but at least they ban fighters from time to time, sometimes over and over! Other sports, weightlifting, wrestling only come on the radar in times of Olympics. And this moves into the realm of your last paragraph. Most rules were set down during the Victorian era when the hoi polloi were not involved and gentlemen played for sport/corinthian ideals. So I believe it should be put in an entirely different context.

[DannyInvincible]

Most rules were set down during the Victorian era when the hoi polloi were not involved and gentlemen played for sport/corinthian ideals. So I believe it should be put in an entirely different context.

Would you advocate a complete overhaul of the rules governing various sports generally in order to see them brought up-to-date wiith room made for "modern sporting values" (as opposed to the, one might say, archaic and out-moded ideals of the gentleman) or have I misinterpreted?

[DannyInvincible]

Armstrong remains unrepentant - says he'd cheat again if he was back in 1995 - yet wants to be forgiven: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/30981609

[Spudulika]

Would you advocate a complete overhaul of the rules governing various sports generally in order to see them brought up-to-date wiith room made for "modern sporting values" (as opposed to the, one might say, archaic and out-moded ideals of the gentleman) or have I misinterpreted?

I believe that there should be something brought in to do with the health of participants rather than the advantage on the field/track. But how to square that in events like ufc? Or in boxing, or rugby, or soccer? Would bodybuilders care about their health anymore than a cyclist or the trainers about their horses? I don't think so. Yet we cannot have a free for all freak show. We cannot advocate a clean Olympics and a drug one, as money and media won't allow it, and in the human nature it won't happen.

I look at rugby as a great case in point. The big jump up about Paul Kimmage mentioning drugs in rugby, I still think there's more to come from this and a former Irish captain/legend, but in the meantime he is right. When I lived and played rugby in Croatia there were players from the leading team juicing up. They trained in mma gyms in Split and more than 2 were caught and done for doping, one of the guys Vlado Ursic - was done more than once. And yet he was the choice for the rugby union to go coaching in schools (even though he's a lousy coach) and clubs! And dropping down a few levels, here in the federal league even players on my own team were taking amphetamines to get hyped up for matches, and our last cross city opponents are prolific dopers, but nothing will happen, and they all know what they are doing to their bodies. But that is an aside.

When I played schools and junior club rugby (in the olden days) the collisions were tough, but I could handle them, everyone could. Now I'm seeing monsters at lower levels and the collisions are harder and the impact far worse than before. And the style of rugby now on display is to run players over rather than jink around them. Put together this "strategy", with artificial muscle mass and amphetamines and you have carnage on the field and long last damage off it.

But what to do? I don't know. Only that I would be very against my kids going anywhere near sports at anything more than a fun level.

And Lance Armstrong - he has a point, but he is also odd. And I wonder about the full interview - need to hear it and then make a judgement. But all dopers do the same, blame others and deny, then try to spin. Politicians and dopers, nothing like them.

[Crosby87]

German fans on meth.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2925414/Bundesliga-crystal-meth-problem-far-one-claims-German-doctor.html

[Spudulika]

Listened to excerpts from the Armstrong interview and now just read part of an interview with Pat McQuaid. I didn't hear or read anything major out of line from either. Both realistic and decent. It is funny how McQuaid was demonised and destroyed by certain media factions, especially inthe British media, only to lose to someone who has a very dodgy recent record with doping.

[passinginterest]

Bad news for the UFC with Anderson Silva testing positive for steroids on his comeback and his opponent Nick Diaz positive for marijuana for the third time. I suppose the recent spate of positive tests might be seen as a good thing in the longer term, as it show's that testing is being taken seriously.

Silva is the really disappointing one as he's long been seen as a leading light in MMA and seemed to be respected by pretty much everyone.

[Mr A]

Neil Francis column mentions meeting an old foe who had played for France and not recognising him because he was so much smaller. The explanation was simply that the guy stopped taking steroids on retirement.

I wonder what his reference to professionalism making it a level playing field now really means...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/neil-francis-not-the-men-they-once-were-but-france-are-still-a-threat-30985416.html

[Stuttgart88]

Neil Francis column mentions meeting an old foe who had played for France and not recognising him because he was so much smaller. The explanation was simply that the guy stopped taking steroids on retirement.

I wonder what his reference to professionalism making it a level playing field now really means...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/neil-francis-not-the-men-they-once-were-but-france-are-still-a-threat-30985416.html
I wouldn't be one to rush to rugby's defence on some issues, including drugs, but it's not exactly a scientific heresy to suggest that a change in lifestyle and diet can lead to weight loss.

Don't rugby and Sumo both have established "debulking" programs for retired athletes?

[Mr A]

In this case the player himself attributed the change to stopping taking steroids. Maybe he was wrong about why his body changed, but the admission of using them while playing is the central point.