Explosive comments from Stephen Kelly

[OwlsFan]

Jesus, he presided over the worst home loss in the history of Irish football.

We all know he'd have been sacked already but the FAI can't afford to pay off his contract. He's a lame duck manager.

Two campaigns and a quarter so far unbeaten away from home with a team made up primarily of journeymen Premiership and Championship players. Blasted lame duck manager!

Why would Trap say it if it were not true? I suspect Kelly has joined the ranks of the prima donnas who now feel that a starting place on a mighty Reading side (having been warming the Fulham bench) entitles them to a starting place in an international side. It's the lemmings syndrome. One breaks rank and many now decide to follow. However, Trap should have dealt with it internally instead of opening his mouth.

[SkStu]

I'm not talking to you right now, my <1 braincell can't process info that fast.
.......
but he said it differently,
you said it like you meant it and that was believable because you've form on that level of debate :)

Sure. It was a harmless reference to his post above mine. Not sure why you try and paint me that way but whatever you're into. I just try to put my points across when I have them. I thought thats why we're all here.

[Serb]

Sources tell me what actually happened was a horse's head was thrown into Kelly's bed

I heard he woke up one morning and there was a Tesco burger on his pillow.

[IsMiseSean]

#TrapOut #KellyOut #DelaneyOut #EveryoneOut

I think I covered all the bases. I love a good moan....

[IsMiseSean]

Oh wait #HoolahanIn

[Fixer82]

Why would Trap say it if it were not true? I suspect Kelly has joined the ranks of the prima donnas who now feel that a starting place on a mighty Reading side (having been warming the Fulham bench) entitles them to a starting place in an international side. It's the lemmings syndrome. One breaks rank and many now decide to follow. However, Trap should have dealt with it internally instead of opening his mouth.

Of all the players that have fallen foul of Trap, I suspect Andy Reid, Kevin Foley and now Stephen Kelly are far from prima donnas

[dr_peepee]

Now that i think about it, didn't Kelly have a fall out with Pullis at Stoke too??

[Crosby87]

Now that i think about it, didn't Kelly have a fall out with Pullis at Stoke too??

He loved Dandy Andy Wilkinson
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Stoke-City-Pulis-backs-Wilko-Kelly/story-12512178-detail/story.html#axzz2KKCSiZMp

[dr_peepee]

How many all in?
Stephen Reid
Andy Reid
Shane Long
Kevin Foley
Daron Gibson
Kevin Doyle (Sort of)
Stephen Kelly
Ian Harte (arguably)
Joey O'Brien
Mark Wilson

Anyone else??

Of all the players that have fallen foul of Trap, I suspect Andy Reid, Kevin Foley and now Stephen Kelly are far from prima donnas

[drummerboy]

Kelly is a very good pro, and a very decent man. Certainly no prima donna. Don't think he ever played for Stoke.

[SwanVsDalton]

Anyway, it seems clear that either Trap or Kelly are lying here - not just misleading or misunderstanding, lying - because he either made himself available or he didn't. Regardless, it was unnecessary to put it out into the public sphere, especially with the already strong unhappiness with the Trapattoni regime.

Dan McDonnell says on Twitter he doesn't think Trap was "implying Kelly had turned down a call-up" which does suggest a misunderstanding of some sort.

That'd be even worse tbh for Trap to be honest.

FAI have weighed in too, not happy. Reported via Twitter: "The association would prefer if team matters like the one before Faroes match...were dealt with in private."

[dr_peepee]

Kelly is a very good pro, and a very decent man. Certainly no prima donna. Don't think he ever played for Stoke.
After Birmingham and before Fulham.

[Crosby87]

Only thing is everyone on here will fight tooth and nail on Kellys behalf, then he will play against Sweden, do terrible, and everyone will be saying how he is not a real Int'l player and should not even be in the squad.

[DannyInvincible]

Only thing is everyone on here will fight tooth and nail on Kellys behalf, then he will play against Sweden, do terrible, and everyone will be saying how he is not a real Int'l player and should not even be in the squad.

Where do you get impressions like that? :confused:

[Crosby87]

B/C it is a very reactionary board, like most fan boards are. Read back on Kellys thread if you have time after matches he has played in.

[DannyInvincible]

Foot.ie reactionary? I dunno. I certainly wouldn't tar "everyone" here with that brush. I think this forum is a diverse and broadly level-headed one with even our resident unionists adding to the welcome assortment of discussion.

[Crosby87]

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

All i meant was that Kelly's value as a player is being overstated today by people who dont like Trap. Some peeps who always slag Kelly are defending him b/c of an anti Trap agenda. Which is fine. I was just pointing that out.

[DannyInvincible]

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Not at all.


All i meant was that Kelly's value as a player is being overstated today by people who dont like Trap. Some peeps who always slag Kelly are defending him b/c of an anti Trap agenda. Which is fine. I was just pointing that out.

Not everything needs to be so black and white. You can recognise that Kelly is a peripheral squad player, but also be of the opinion that Trap is out-of-order to treat any player in such a fashion, especially if you perceive him to have form in that department. I'm not saying that's my opnion - I think there's more light to be shed on this - but not everyone here is a posting stereotype.

[p2011]

Wait a minute. Nobody is claiming Kelly is brilliant, but he has been a solid backup for us for years. Trap shouldn't be slinging mud and airing dirty washing in public just to cover his endangered ass. Surely everyone can agree on that, whether you're pro or anti Trap. Total lack of professionalism.

Opinion now:
He is a lame duck and a change of management would give us a positive reaction that might just get us a playoff.

[p2011]

[QUOTE=OwlsFan;1661177campaigns and a quarter so far unbeaten away from home with a team made up primarily of journeymen Premiership and ionship players. Blasted lame duck manager!
.[/QUOTE]

Youre being selective there.
We also havent beaten a top 3 seed at home either, which is usually the backbone and measure of a decent campaign. Sure, we qualified once, largely by being drawn against Estonia IMO. Record home defeat, stuffed in Poland etc. ...

Lets meet halfway: His record is/was OK, but he's out of order here.

Tonight's FAI statement sounds like another attempt to make Trap jump. Surely that sort of thing is the definition of "lame duck".

[shakermaker1982]

The Trap needs to nip this in the bud & call Kelly to apologise or explain it's a big misunderstanding.

Not rocket science.

2 bad results next month & he's a goner anyway. Fans & press both want blood so inevitable he will be sacked with the next bad result.

[Charlie Darwin]

The most interesting aspect of Kelly's statement is what he doesn't say.

There seems to be a disconnect in that he's denying refusing a call-up for the Poland, which Trap has acknowledged he wasn't trying to imply. He says Trap's comments are "untrue" and that his commitment to the Irish cause has never been under question, yet he makes no attempt to deny refusing to board the plane to Kazakhstan. I think Trap has dealt with this poorly (as usual) but hard to have any sympathy for Kelly as he hasn't made any obvious effort to rehabilitate himself.

[pineapple stu]

Tonight's FAI statement sounds like another attempt to make Trap jump. Surely that sort of thing is the definition of "lame duck".
Certainly, it seems like we'll have a different manager this time next year. And while it's always hard to work out who's right and wrong in these cases - cos you can can only hear what's being aired in the media - it's hard to avoid the view that there do seem to be issues in the dressing room, whoever's at fault. That's twice now in recent months the FAI have come out and told the manager how to do his job.

Or maybe Delaney is just lining the job up for himself?

[Crosby87]

Just playing devils advocate for a sec---do our players sometimes need thicker skin?

[DeLorean]

Foot.ie reactionary? I dunno. I certainly wouldn't tar "everyone" here with that brush. I think this forum is a diverse and broadly level-headed one with even our resident unionists adding to the welcome assortment of discussion.

I think most people on here are articulate and constructive in their views but I'm starting to question the general balance amongst the masses. I'm not exactly sure where I fall on the Trap debate, I see pros and cons and would really need to know his replacement before I'm swayed too far in one direction. Obviously I won't be afforded this luxury so I'm fairly content to sit on the fence to an extent.

Trap's preparation in terms of watching players, communicating properly, etc clearly leaves a lot to be desired. I've no doubt in my mind that Brian Kerr would carry out this kind of work in a much more professional manner. Would Kerr have taken Staunton's horrific remains to the Euros within two campaigns and almost to the WC within one? Maybe he would have done but I doubt it. Trap obviously brings, or at least has brought, other things to the setup to counteract his shortcomings. Does this excuse him for being lazy? No. Does this mean that he couldn't have done a better job if he had cleaned up his act in relation to the job he was supposed to be doing? Of course not.

I feel we have to be careful what we wish for and although we might replace him easily in terms of professionalism and dedication, there are very few managers who contain that special aura that his track record merits. He's a much bigger deal than our players and this, for me, is a positive. We really can't fault the spirit of our fairly limited bunch during Trap's reign. This could well stem from their admiration and respect for the boss I would think.

Maybe Trap should have left after The Euros, but that was his decision to make given the nature of his contract. He decided to plough on with a fairly demoralised bunch who had reached a natural transition. The Germans coming to town and clinically proving the undoubted gulf between their players and ours was a blunt reminder that the Euros wasn't just a bad dream! Still, a solid win in the Faroes to go with the lucky win in Kazakhstan leaves us on 6 points and in a similar enough position to the start of our last qualification campaign, the notable difference being that the Swedes are unlikely to turn out as flimsy as the Slovaks.

Anyway, it is what it is at this stage and whether Trap should have gone or been sacked already is irrelevant in my view. We have two potentially group defining games coming up and a change of manager at this point would surely be counter productive in almost every sense. Who better to lead us to Stockholm than a manager who hasn't lost an away qualifier since beginning with us in 2008? If we get two positive results he has more than earned the right to see out the rest of his contract.

[EastTerracer]

Now that i think about it, didn't Kelly have a fall out with Pullis at Stoke too??

Kelly played six games on loan at Stoke. I don't know where the fallout with Pulis comes from though. This is what Pulis had to say at the end of that loan-spell:

"He did smashing whenever he came in for us," said Pulis, "but he was very unfortunate in that his chances were obviously limited.
(http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Stoke-City-Pulis-backs-Wilko-Kelly/story-12512178-detail/story.html#ixzz2KL2lHag5) (http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Stoke-City-Pulis-backs-Wilko-Kelly/story-12512178-detail/story.html#ixzz2KL2lHag5)"He's a player I would have been very interested in had there been different circumstances, but the fact is he was too much like Andy Wilkinson age-wise." (http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Stoke-City-Pulis-backs-Wilko-Kelly/story-12512178-detail/story.html#ixzz2KL2lHag5)


Can't see any sign of a fall-out there.

[SkStu]

Just playing devils advocate for a sec---do our players sometimes need thicker skin?

I think footballers in general just need to quit being such massive tarts. With regard to the Irish lads, you'd really pine for the days of Moran, McCarthy, Whelan, Houghton, Aldo etc. proper men.

[bishbash]

Traps day has come and gone. I hate this "we're crap so we should take what we are given" attitude. Based on his recent record then he is deserves the criticism he is getting. Tactically he is inept, refuses to adjust or be flexible. Has fallen out with numerous people. Treatment of Foley was also horrendous, but then again Foley is not brilliant so it's ok to treat him like crap. Then we question player commitment? If you are treated badly you react in kind.



I see so many excuses for Trapattoni's behaviour, great record, he got us to the Euros even though we are crap so all hail St Giovanni! In Modern football you have to be adaptable to change open minded, flexible. Even Alex Ferguson alters tactics from time to time, not Trap though cause we're Ireland, we're sh!t and all we can do is punt it 100 yards, and some fans say yeah he's spot on!


Lets see who else he falls out with between now and the end of his reign and how they are to blame.

[SkStu]

DeLorean, I respect your well thought out post but I think that the fence that some sit on is really the dividing line between those to whom success is defined purely on the w/l columns and successful qualifications. On the other side are those to whom results still matter but who also place a higher value on other tangibles like (balancing results with) style with succession planning with managerial style and so on...

It's all subjective though. I'm in the latter camp obviously and have been for most of his tenure but I get why others focus on results as, essentially, the be all and end all. It's hard to argue with it.

Now, while I appreciate the alternate view, it's not going to stop me expressing my own! :)

[Crosby87]

I think that is a good post from both Delorean and Stu.
I guess what i was trying to say before and didnt do a good job of it, I mean the squad won 2-0. Was it like watchign Barca? No, but when is that ever the case? There was a lot of flogging. The URL would have blown up if we had somehow lost to Poland, I guess.
Im too lazy to go on wiki or whatever but i would like to see the records of each tenure: Mick, Kerr, Stan, Trap.

[bishbash]

I think that is a good post from both Delorean and Stu.
I guess what i was trying to say before and didnt do a good job of it, I mean the squad won 2-0. Was it like watchign Barca? No, but when is that ever the case? There was a lot of flogging. The URL would have blown up if we had somehow lost to Poland, I guess.
Im too lazy to go on wiki or whatever but i would like to see the records of each tenure: Mick, Kerr, Stan, Trap.

The campaign Kerr presided over was certainly a much tougher one than than Traps last one. France, Switzerland and Israel being the standout teams.

[Charlie Darwin]

The campaign Kerr presided over was certainly a much tougher one than than Traps last one. France, Switzerland and Israel being the standout teams.
That French side was in disarray and only qualified because they called Zidane, Makalele and, I think, Thuram out of retirement. The Swiss were no great shakes and we threw away two wins against Israel. The only thing that stopped us qualifying for that World Cup was the inability to close out a game.

[bishbash]

That French side was in disarray and only qualified because they called Zidane, Makalele and, I think, Thuram out of retirement. The Swiss were no great shakes and we threw away two wins against Israel. The only thing that stopped us qualifying for that World Cup was the inability to close out a game.

Yeah but the fact remains that they were there, Thierry Henry's wasn't a bad player at that time if I remember correctly. Switzerland and Israel were much better sides than Estonia, Macedonia, Slovakia or Armenia were. That was my point it was a more difficult qualifying campaign.

[Charlie Darwin]

What did Israel do after that campaign? They were no better than Armenia. Switzerland were probably marginally better than Slovakia, or at least more clinical an outfit. The Russia team we played was vastly better than the French team we played in the first leg, and I'd say still superior to the Zidane/Henry-inspired team that beat us.

[bishbash]

What did Israel do after that campaign? They were no better than Armenia. Switzerland were probably marginally better than Slovakia, or at least more clinical an outfit. The Russia team we played was vastly better than the French team we played in the first leg, and I'd say still superior to the Zidane/Henry-inspired team that beat us.

Superior to the team that lost the following World Cup final on penalties,
I'd have to strongly disagree. I'm not saying Israel were exceptional I'm just saying they were superior to Armenia, Slovakia and Macedonia which they were. My point is still that Kerr had a more difficult qualifying campaign than traps last one.

[Charlie Darwin]

Superior to the team that lost the following World Cup final on penalties
In that particular game, yeah. They were a side in disarray that played very little fluid football. Luckily for them, the senior players froze the manager out at the World Cup and used their talent to get to the final in spite of him.

I really don't know how you could consider that Israel side superior to Armenia. We comfortably outplayed them twice and conceded stupid goals to draw the games. Armenia offered an attacking threat they never did.

[bishbash]

In that particular game, yeah. They were a side in disarray that played very little fluid football. Luckily for them, the senior players froze the manager out at the World Cup and used their talent to get to the final in spite of him.

I really don't know how you could consider that Israel side superior to Armenia. We comfortably outplayed them twice and conceded stupid goals to draw the games. Armenia offered an attacking threat they never did.


In that particular game, yeah. They were a side in disarray that played very little fluid football. Luckily for them, the senior players froze the manager out at the World Cup and used their talent to get to the final in spite of him.

I really don't know how you could consider that Israel side superior to Armenia. We comfortably outplayed them twice and conceded stupid goals to draw the games. Armenia offered an attacking threat they never did.

The irish side that lost to France in the playoff was lauded for producing a great performance. It could be argued that that French side was completely dysfunctional considering their performances that followed and actions of the players. That Russian side did nothing in the World Cup. However I would have no problems had we lost both games as the Russians were a much better side than Ireland. My point is the inept displays against the other opponents who we are stronger than which were far from convincing and that's followed on. Brian Kerr in my opinion was much more ruthlessly judged in results and performances in a group that I feel was much stronger than what trap faced. Yes I definitely do think that Israeli side was superior but I give credit to that irish side for the way the played against better opposition.

[Charlie Darwin]

The irish side that lost to France in the playoff was lauded for producing a great performance. It could be argued that that French side was completely dysfunctional considering their performances that followed and actions of the players.
I think you're taking me up wrong. I completely agree the France side we faced in the playoff were dysfunctional and we should have beaten them. I was talking about the groups as the only direct comparison since Kerr didn't reach the playoffs.


That Russian side did nothing in the World Cup. However I would have no problems had we lost both games as the Russians were a much better side than Ireland. My point is the inept displays against the other opponents who we are stronger than which were far from convincing and that's followed on. Brian Kerr in my opinion was much more ruthlessly judged in results and performances in a group that I feel was much stronger than what trap faced.
Well Kerr was more ruthlessly judged because, regardless of whether the opponents were weaker or stronger than what Trap faced, he didn't get results. He didn't get to any playoffs and he didn't qualify for anything.


Yes I definitely do think that Israeli side was superior but I give credit to that irish side for the way the played against better opposition.
You think that Israel side was better than Ireland? Even though they finished ahead in the groups... no way.

[bishbash]

I think you're taking me up wrong. I completely agree the France side we faced in the playoff were dysfunctional and we should have beaten them. I was talking about the groups as the only direct comparison since Kerr didn't reach the playoffs.




Well Kerr was more ruthlessly judged because, regardless of whether the opponents were weaker or stronger than what Trap faced, he didn't get results. He didn't get to any playoffs and he didn't qualify for anything.




You think that Israel side was better than Ireland? Even though they finished ahead in the groups... no way.


no I don't think that Israeli side were better than Ireland, fully agree that we let those games slip, but I do think that they were superior to most teams we faced in the last campaign.


the problem I have with the way Trapattoni is judged is either you analyse the performance of the Irish team taking into account the quality of the opposition and circumstances or you just say purely and simply on results. In the case of Brian Kerr he got one campaign was pretty unlucky, came down to as you said failure to hold on to leads, didn't qualify and was sacked. I thought he did a reasonable job with the team and could see positives but if its a results business pure and simple then sack him.


Trappattoni failed to get us qualified in his 1st campaign so you could argue that he should have walked. People will say the team was poor etc but if you judge it on just results he should walk.


I believe that the analysis should be based on all the relative particulars of a campaign, quality of team, opposition etc. My problem with Trapattoni is over the last campaign we played very average teams using outdated tactics. I believe we could have qualified playing a better brand of football that would have also set us up to be more equipped to play the likes of Spain, Croatia and Italy. Would we still have lost? Most probably but I believe we would have had a far better chance of getting somethin rather than the embarrassment we suffered.


do we have the players to play like Spain? No. But we also don't have the players to play A 4-4-2 against teams that out number us and who we like to hand possession to. The problem is he hasn't altered his thinking in the slightest when lets be honest some things have to change.


Hes been a great manager but he's enjoyed luck I've never seen before (Russia) (drawing Estonia). The time has come now to apply the criteria for judgement, is it results based that we have decided is the be all and end all? If so he has to go based on the euros and really what's come since.

[p2011]

I think that campaign was Israel's high water mark, they were unbeaten v France and v Switzerland if I remember correctly. Switzerland were very very solid back then and regularly qualified. And France went on to the World up final that campaign.

I think Kerr's WC2006 group was significantly harder than Trap's two full campaigns. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, particularly the Euro2012 group. Comparing the teams' FIFA rankings at the times would give an objective measure,if someone looked it up.

[p2011]

IMO we are at a Stan-like level of disarray and incompetence and GUBU at the moment under Trap. I think it really is that bad.

[bishbash]

IMO we are at a Stan-like level of disarray and incompetence GUBU at the moment under Trap. I think it really is that bad.

This is my point, under Kerr it was considered not good enough even though we played strong sides. Under Trap the attitude seems to be we're Ireland we're crap thanks very much for working miracles Giovanni. I disagree completely. Kerr had a stronger squad I accept that but I don't believe that Trap has made nearly enough of the group he has available to him.

Another point I've heard made against Kerr was he lost the dressing room. When players speak about Trap all you hear is players should just get on with it.

[Crosby87]

IMO we are at a Stan-like level of disarray and incompetence and GUBU at the moment under Trap. I think it really is that bad.

This is miserable nonsense.
Brought upon I believe, by a young person wanting instant gradification via a myth.

Stan vs Wales......

[p2011]

This is miserable nonsense.
Brought upon I believe, by a young person wanting instant gradification via a myth.

Stan v Wales......

Genuinely no idea what you're trying to say here (young? myth? what?), but it doesn't sound constructive. Debate the issues, don't attack the poster please.

[p2011]

Kazakhstan could easily have been Trap's equivalent of the 2-5 in Cyprus but for Kevin Doyle* creating one and scoring another. And we're getting players played out of position and mad "rabbit out of hat" promotions to the team. And a general feeling of a manager under siege doing and saying anything to survive... All Stan-like to me.


*But now Sammon is ahead of Doyle & others? It's farcical.

[gastric]

Indo's campaign against Trap continues...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fai-believes-stephen-kellys-version-of-events-over-traps-29057912.html

[elroy]

The big issue here is communication. Clearly Trap is not good at it. This is just another case in a long run of needless fall outs with players. There is one common denominator.

I agree with others that no player is entitled to throw a tantrum over not getting in the team, no player is entitled to expect a starting place. However, I do think the likes of Kelly, the likes of Gibson who turned up for many a squad, deserve some sort of communication every now and then as to what they need to do to get in the team, why they arent etc. I particularly think Gibson deserved to be taken aside and explained why he got no game time at the Euros even though Trap specifically asked him to join the training squad early and then gave game time to players like Green who were touch and go to make the squad.

Finally, a manager who communicates well would deal with any issues in house, even if they are reported in the media. Replying as he does in this manner only fuels the flames.

[Spudulika]

It's not Delaney being lined up for the job, it's Lord Reilly of INM towers, or formerly of INM towers. Directions were given to INM journos to go after the FAI and Trap when the battle began for control of INM, it's continuing to play out now. And we all just play along. Of course the FM2011 heroes will reckon they know more than everyone, along with the meeja and talking heads. It's like a long drawn out Joe Duffy, only less funny and more embarrassing.

[Spudulika]

Indo's campaign against Trap continues...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fai-believes-stephen-kellys-version-of-events-over-traps-29057912.html

The same paper that "learned" about the managers imminent sacking from a senior FAI source. They're worse than Cosmo with their surveys.

[p2011]

The Indo and others do have an agenda and Duffy is a cringeworthy rabble-rouser, but that doesn't stop us judging the evidence of our own eyes and ears making up our own mind ... and possibly deciding Trap is a liability.