View Full Version : Huge Game for our League
gspain
14/09/2004, 3:37 PM
Shelbourne v Lille on Thursday is a massive massive game for the league.
While it would be fantastic to see Shels in the group stages of the UEFA Cup it is vital that they at least earn a draw in one of the 2 games.
A draw would give Shels a club coefficient - only available from this round of the UEFA Cup onwards and the Group stages of the CL. This would guarantee Shels a seeded place in the 1st round draw next year assuming they win the league.
They would keep this club coefficient for 5 years and this would be effectively enough to guarantee seeding any year in the enxt 5 if they qualify for the champions league.
Furthermore if Shels get a result and fail to win the league they will still push us up 2 places in the coefficient table - ahead of Liechtenstein and Belarus thus ensuring our champions get seeded next summer.
As full points are now available from this stage onwards any result would also count as double so if Shels were to draw on Thursday they would earn a club coefficient and earn double the points for Ireland that they did by drawing with Depor at Lansdowne.
Coefficient Points - CL qualifying rounds and UEFA prelims
1 point per win 0.5 per draw divided by number of participating clubs - eg each draw worth .166 and each win worth .333
Coefficient Points - CL Group stages and UEFA 1st round onwards
2 points per win 1 per draw divided by number of participating clubs - eg each draw worth .333 and each win worth .666
Slash/ED
14/09/2004, 6:09 PM
Wanting to see an Irish side do well in Europe? Prepare for a backlash for controversial sentiments like that...
HarpoJoyce
14/09/2004, 7:05 PM
Yes, its another oppurtunity for Shelbourne to get another nil-nil draw at home.
However, Shelbourne and other eircom League clubs have every right to expect to play 8 (eight) and more matches a season in Europe.
That's Europe CL and UEFA Cup where the actually co-efficient counts.
There's plenty of matches out there every year and the eircom League can have a piece of it. Especially, in my opinion, as European football has been pretty poor for a long time.
thecorner
14/09/2004, 9:18 PM
Shelbourne v Lille on Thursday is a massive massive game for the league.
While it would be fantastic to see Shels in the group stages of the UEFA Cup
eh......................NO
As always I'll support whatever team Shelbourne are playing....no matter what the competition.
Same here.
I'll support ANY team over Shelbourne, no matter who they are or where they come from.
Fcuk Shels and their corrupt thugs.
A face
14/09/2004, 10:53 PM
Wanting to see an Irish side do well in Europe? Prepare for a backlash for controversial sentiments like that...
Its not like that man ... !! it is all the bigger picture and nothing else !!
LFC in Exile
15/09/2004, 8:29 AM
I do hope Shels get through to the Group matches. In fact if Shels won the bloody thing I'd be delighted.
It does help the likes of Limerick and Kilkenny if eL clubs do well in Europe - but there may not be a sudden dramatic increase in gates. However, any improvement in the standards of the eL (brought about by euro money or whatever) is good for the league as a whole. Anything that raises the profile of the eL is good for all clubs in encouraging bar stoolers to go outside. Also, the financial return possible from eL success in europe makes it a more attractive proposition for investors, particularly in clubs with a large potential fan base but poor current structures (Limerick?).
I do have a big problem though with the behaviour of Shels over this fixture. The switch to 5.30 did not suit most fans, who were not given a second thought when the French TV money dictated a ridiculous kick-off time. Now that French TV has backed out the club and the FAI are looking for the same fans who were shafted with the kick-off time to come out in force. Just think that was lousy.
In any event - c'mon Shels.
Bald Student
15/09/2004, 10:27 AM
I do have a big problem though with the behaviour of Shels over this fixture.
I agree. I supported Shels in all the other rounds but I won't in this one. The way Ollie ignored the supporters when French TV waved their money was wrong. If Shels want my support they can treat us fans with a little more respect.
eoinh
15/09/2004, 10:54 AM
eh......................NO
If you read Gspains' post, and took it in properly maybe you might understand why shels getting a result is vitally important for all eircom league clubs. It potentially means getting easier draws for all clubs, progressing more rounds and meeting the likes of Deportivo on a fairly regular basis. It increases the revenue stream for Cork City and all LOI clubs meaning better grounds, better facilities, better players and hopefully more fans.
If you want to seee clubs like Lazio at the cross cheer on shels.
No to mediocrity!
TheSaint2002
15/09/2004, 11:14 AM
Lets not be naive here against Depor it was a different gravy it was the possibility of seeing an Irish club take a place in the greatest club tournament in the world but against Lille they can shag off at the end of the day us fools saying come on Shels and all they will do with the money from this Euro run is buy players to starve the league of any competitiveness lets be honest it has already started with them signing the likes of Juan Sara how many other clubs in the league could have signed him? Enough is enough I say, not that I want to see them hammered but a graceful exit would be acceptable.
A face
15/09/2004, 1:07 PM
all they will do with the money from this Euro run is buy players to starve the league of any competitiveness lets be honest it has already started with them signing the likes of Juan Sara how many other clubs in the league could have signed him?
This is exactly my point ... but i didn't want to direct it at Shels (for fear people would think it were sour grapes etc.) ..... If we want the league as a whole league, not just one club to be competitive then it is better if all/most/majority of clubs are in and around the same level, impossible to do i know but that does mean we shouldn't want it.
Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??
Answer this first and then give your abuse !!
Slash/ED
15/09/2004, 1:20 PM
Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??
Answer this first and then give your abuse !!
That has nothing to do with European money though and even without any european money that would be the case.
If an EL side can make the group stages of the UEFA cup then there's no reason why another EL side can't make it. Afterall, we get more than one UEFA cup space. Say if Shels won the league this season aad made the UEFA cup group stages and Cork finished second, there's absolutley no reason whatsoever that Cork couldn't then go and make the UEFA cup group stages themselves (In fact, it will be easier for Cork to do it if this turned out to be the case, due to the fact they would have better seeding because of Shels results). If we keep hopeing our other clubs will fail then we'll forever be medicore, somebody has to make a break through and hopefully (As I'm biased) it'll be Shels in a few weeks time, then it's up to the other EL clubs to match it and beat it and there's no reason why they can't. They can either sit around and moan about how Shels have it easy and will dominate the league from here on in or they can try and make the break through in Europe themselves.
tiktok
15/09/2004, 1:29 PM
I think the points Slash/Ed and eoinh made are perfectly valid.
I hope Shels do get through, but after the farce on scheduling the game, I hope they don't get their 12,000 attendance needed to break even on cost.
A face
15/09/2004, 1:41 PM
If we keep hopeing our other clubs will fail then we'll forever be medicore, somebody has to make a break through and hopefully (As I'm biased) it'll be Shels in a few weeks time.
I know what your saying and agree with it BUT i'd rather if every eL club were getting good television money, better crowds etc. to allow them to compete on a more even stage.
Can you understand my point about the league not being competitive if it were just two teams at the top every year for the next 40 years ?
i think A Face that the situation in Scotland is unique. That league is driven by a religious divide in Glasgow that is unique. It isnt really football related at all.
Who wants all clubs playing at the same level if its the crap level?
In Cork we have our strengths - the only big club for miles around (aplogies to ramblers), big sponsership, big support and a pride in a LOI team that other cities and towns in Ireland cant match. Shels dont have any of those qualities (except for the sponsers probably).
Shels do well this season - we get seeded in europe. If we get our act together we can qualify for the all-ireland competition which is bringing a lot of exposure and money to clubs.
Slash/ED
15/09/2004, 1:52 PM
I know what your saying and agree with it BUT i'd rather if every eL club were getting good television money, better crowds etc. to allow them to compete on a more even stage.
Can you understand my point about the league not being competitive if it were just two teams at the top every year for the next 40 years ?
Yeah, but, you have to say that the only way to get good television money, better crowds etc for the whole league is for European results to improve. I don't think shels getting into the UEFA cup group stages this year would lead to a non competitive league unless the other sides let them dominate. There's no reason why Cork, Bohs and a few others can't match or beat Shels results in Europe and the money from the Setanta cup should mean there's plenty going around to more than one side and we can all start getting to this stage, and further, in Europe regularly.
I agree with you that a non competitive league would be rubbish but I really don't think that will happen if Shels beat Lille, for a start the money in the UEFA cup is nothing on the money in the champions league and since we get more than one entry to the UEFA cup, unlike the champions league, there's no reason why other sides can't get to the same level consistently or get even further if they're run well.
Sheridan
15/09/2004, 1:54 PM
Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??
Answer this first and then give your abuse !!
I'll give it a try, although it's been done more articulately by others above, and I'm probably wasting my time with some of the knuckle-draggers on this thread (not you, Face.)
CelGers - bad example, unique situation. Rosenborg - bad example, unique situation.
To put this to bed for once and for all, I spent ten minutes trawling through rsssf.com looking for teams of Shels' calibre that have competed in the Champions League group stages, and their subsequent domestic form. I left out plenty of sides that could have been included (e.g. Lille, Lierse) because I deemed their parent leagues too strong to make a valid comparison.
92-93
IFK Gotheburg
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 3 (94, 95, 96)
94/95
Hajduk Split
Subsequent Croatian championships won: 2 (2001, 2004)
95/96
Aalborg
Subsequent Danish championships won: 1 (1999)
96/97
Widzew Lodz
Subsequent Polish championships won: 0
97/98
1.FC Kosice
Subsequent Slovak championships won: 0
98/99
Brondby
Subsequent Danish championships won: 1 (2002)
HJK Helsinki
Subsequent Finnish championships won: 2 (2002, 2003)
99/2000
AIK
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 0
Molde
Subsequent Norwegian championships won: 0
Maribor
Subsequent Slovenian championships won: 3 (2001, 2002, 2003)
00/01
Shakhtar Donetsk
Subsequent Ukrainian championships won: 1 (2002)
Helsingborg
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 0
02/03
Maccabi Haifa
Subsequent Israeli championships won: 1 (2004)
Conclusion:
The knock-on effect of Champions League qualification is overstated. The three teams most comparable to Shelbourne (Aalborg, Kosice and Maccabi Haifa) have won a combined total of two domestic championships in the combined fifteen seasons since their CL qualification. If HJK Helsinki's participation led to their two recent championships, it was by way of a very delayed reaction - FC Haka won three-in-a-row from HJK's CL season onwards.
Situations such as those in Norway and Slovenia are anomalous, and indicative of local, as much as continental, factors. Both Rosenborg and Maribor had been in total control of their domestic leagues in the years immediately preceding their first Champions League appearances.
Another point that people are missing is this; if Shelbourne are good enough to qualify for the final stages of the Champions League, they should be good enough to dominate the Premier Division for three-to-five years with that team alone. Having seen them last Monday, I'm not entirely sure this isn't the case anyway.
Slash/ED
15/09/2004, 1:59 PM
Molde
Subsequent Norwegian championships won: 0
Not only that but aren't they also battling relegation now? I'm pretty sure I heard they're a bottom half club now anyway.
Great post btw, I think that shows that an Irish side making the break through in Europe wont lead to the doom and gloom and non competitive league that some people think it will.
Perfect reply sheridan. Also HJK Helsinki i think have been in the champions league and didnt go on to dominate in the league. For many of these clubs the stress of competing in the CL means that their league form goes to pieces while they are taking part and they end up losing their domestic championship.
Not only that but aren't they also battling relegation now? I'm pretty sure I heard they're a bottom half club now anyway.
Yep, they are 12th out of 14.
Sheridan
15/09/2004, 2:08 PM
Perfect reply sheridan. Also HJK Helsinki i think have been in the champions league and didnt go on to dominate in the league.
:eek: Eek, can't believe I forgot to put them in, as it was the thought of their CL participation that prompted the post. I shall edit it.
gspain
15/09/2004, 2:17 PM
a few points
1) No problem with Shels moving the kickoff time to cash in on the TV rights. Bohs did the same for Kaiserslautern. Shame it didn't work out though.
2) A successful Shels side will only encourage others to try and emulate them. 30 years ago Athlone were stuffing Valerenga and Bohs beat Esbjerg home and away. 40 years ago Derry put 5 past Lyn Oslo. Now these leagues are at a different level to ours Teams like Rosenborg and Brondby led the way but the overall standard also went up considerably
3) A rich Shelbourne spending money is spreading more money around our league and forcing everyone to raise their standards.
4) One draw over 2 games will ensure our champions are seeded in next season's champions league
5) Shels v Depor raised th eprofile of the whole league. It shows what can be done. If anything Cork, Limerick etc have an even better chance with no local rivals and huge potential fanbase. Cork did us proud in Europe this season too.
You know this A Face (as does everyone here) that when you talk to non el people about our league they think its absolute ****e. The thought of supporting a team in Ireland is odd and weird to them.
Well, this season Shels and Cork City made people think twice about it. It was mentioned before by people who have no interest in it.
City fans in Cork might not realise it (because there are other city fans to talk to) but LOI does not get a blip on the radar screen in places like Dungarvan where i live. Its alien to them.
City and Shels made these people think again. This cant be a one-off year. Shels even getting a draw on Thursday will help this seasons exploits in Europe happening again.
Don't disagree with any of the posts above, but why are Celtic/Rangers and Rosenburg so "unique" that their kind of dominance could not happen here?
Why are Shels so different to them?
Plenty of evidence and sentiment to show that getting into the group stages is a good thing, and may not lead to domination, but can't see any evidence to explain this uniqueness which could not happen here.
BTW, any fans who don't wish rival clubs all the best, are they "knuckle-draggers" ?
I hope Shels do well on the field, but lose their shirt financially because yet again they have shown their true attitude to fans.
Sheridan
15/09/2004, 3:25 PM
Don't disagree with any of the posts above, but why are Celtic/Rangers and Rosenburg so "unique" that their kind of dominance could not happen here?
Why are Shels so different to them?
Plenty of evidence and sentiment to show that getting into the group stages is a good thing, and may not lead to domination, but can't see any evidence explain this uniqueness which could not happen here.
BTW, any fans who don't wish other clubs all the best, are they "knuckle-draggers" ?
I hope Shels do well on the field, but lose their shirt financially because yet again they have shown their true attitude to fans.
Celtic and Rangers were always in a position to pull away as they did. (Incidentally, it amuses me when people fail to realise that the Premiership is as much a two-horse race as the SPL. Three different champions in twelve years, one of them an inexplicable once-off!) But ask yourself, does the Celtic-Rangers phenomenon exist because of their Champions League exploits (obviously not, as they've both done comparatively f*ck all) or because they're pulling in 40/50/60k attendances every week? There are particular cultural and financial factors at play (not least the arms-race which led to the Old Firm desperately trying to out-spend one another to the extent that others were left in their wake) there which don't exist in Ireland.
Rosenborg, again, is an entirely different situation. Its genesis is in the Elite Sport programme founded by the Norwegian government in the early eighties to make the country competitive in football and athletics. Rosenborg won three consecutive championships before they ever made the CL, so their dominance can't be attributed to Champions League money alone (also, they've dragged the likes of Molde into the CL on the back of their achievements.)
None of these factors are relevant here.
In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.
There are valid arguments being made on both sides here but the simple fact of the matter is I don't want to see Shels doing well.
It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well, partly because of the fact that it could lead to them dominating for a year or two and partly because I simply don't want to see Ollie Byrne and his goons with smiles on their faces. I suppose in the eyes of our intellectually superior Dublin City fan that would make me a "knuckle dragger" but I don't really care!
I know what some of you are saying about it raising the profile of the league but does it really in the long term? I mean look at when we were in Europe, we got successive sell outs but then just a week after the Nantes game less than 5000 showed up to watch the Munster derby. Likewise with Shels they got 24000 (with more ticketless outside) yet they will be lucky to get half that tomorrow night. As far as I'm concerned it raises the league/clubs profile in the immediate but the general public forget very very quickly.
thecorner
15/09/2004, 3:52 PM
CelGers - bad example, unique situation. Rosenborg - bad example, unique situation.
.
how can u have 2 unique situations
doesnt this make them not unique :confused:
Bald Student
15/09/2004, 4:02 PM
In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.
I hope that I'm in the other 10%.
More seriously though, I think that an eL team that qualified for a group stage of either european competition would find it hard to win the league that season with the ammount of extra games and travelling to be done, all of them in the final third of the season.
On another point, does this argument become academic if Tolka Park is rezoned, as is the current plan, and Shels make 20 million euro from the sale. That's worth a lot more than the Champions League.
Sheridan
15/09/2004, 4:05 PM
how can u have 2 unique situations
doesnt this make them not unique :confused:
What?
Unique situation 1: Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship.
Unique situation 2: Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.
Two unique situations with the same outcome, I think you'll agree.
There are valid arguments being made on both sides here but the simple fact of the matter is I don't want to see Shels doing well.
It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well, partly because of the fact that it could lead to them dominating for a year or two and partly because I simply don't want to see Ollie Byrne and his goons with smiles on their faces. I suppose in the eyes of our intellectually superior Dublin City fan that would make me a "knuckle dragger" but I don't really care!
I know what some of you are saying about it raising the profile of the league but does it really in the long term? I mean look at when we were in Europe, we got successive sell outs but then just a week after the Nantes game less than 5000 showed up to watch the Munster derby. Likewise with Shels they got 24000 (with more ticketless outside) yet they will be lucky to get half that tomorrow night. As far as I'm concerned it raises the league/clubs profile in the immediate but the general public forget very very quickly.
Colm with regard to what youre saying about Manurea and $eltic - they are different situations. No matter what happens in the matchs tonight people will still think the Premier****e is the greatest thing going. What happens wont really affect the seeding of that League.
We got 5000 for the Munster Derby - well thats not bad. if all LOI games in the country got that figure I'ld be happy.
Going back to shels v us a few weeks ago. They beat us fair and square. They deserved to beat us that night. Their goal was a well worked beauty (Jeez im talking like a Shels fan - father forgive me :( ) but we have to learn from that defeat. We dont need Shels to fail, we need to win and become more professional. Im sure Dolan and Lennox know this. I want a strong league. I want Cork City to be the biggest thing in it. i want to be a big duck in a big pond not a small duck in a small pond.
thecorner
15/09/2004, 4:26 PM
What?
Unique situation 1: Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship.
Unique situation 2: Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.
Two unique situations with the same outcome, I think you'll agree.
same outcome.....different circumstances...
celgers,rosenberg...same circumstances
cant be unique bud ;)
Sheridan
15/09/2004, 4:36 PM
same outcome.....different circumstances...
celgers,rosenberg...same circumstances
cant be unique bud ;)
I repeat: what? They're totally different circumstances. Unless 1 > 2.
Do you honestly not realise this or are you just winding me up?
LFC in Exile
15/09/2004, 4:48 PM
I am convinced by the argument about the non-competitiveness of the league if Shels win. All clubs shouldbe the same standard to make the league interesting.
Therefore I propose that the premier clubs should share out their players on loan and take on some 1st division players. This would mean that all the clubs would be shi te but there'd be no way of predicting who'd win the league/promotion etc. :rolleyes:
If an even standard is what is being called for then it is much easier to gravitate to wards a lower standard than a higher standard.
I am stunned to hear eL fans hoping an eL club get beaten in Europe. Whatever happened to solidarity in promoting the league? This me-fein attitude has held the league back all these years. Just lie back and think of the coefficient. :ball:
A face
15/09/2004, 6:29 PM
Mr. A can't get to work because his bus was beamed aboard a spaceship ................. Mr. B can't get to work because Brett Anderson from Suede is standing in front of his front door refusing to let him out.
Hey, i was fine with it all up until now ..... Young man .. you have the run of yourself :confused: ( :D )
All good points and well made !!
A good thread and it has been well debated !!
Celtic and Rangers were always in a position to pull away as they did. (Incidentally, it amuses me when people fail to realise that the Premiership is as much a two-horse race as the SPL. Three different champions in twelve years, one of them an inexplicable once-off!) But ask yourself, does the Celtic-Rangers phenomenon exist because of their Champions League exploits (obviously not, as they've both done comparatively f*ck all) or because they're pulling in 40/50/60k attendances every week? There are particular cultural and financial factors at play (not least the arms-race which led to the Old Firm desperately trying to out-spend one another to the extent that others were left in their wake) there which don't exist in Ireland.
Rosenborg, again, is an entirely different situation. Its genesis is in the Elite Sport programme founded by the Norwegian government in the early eighties to make the country competitive in football and athletics. Rosenborg won three consecutive championships before they ever made the CL, so their dominance can't be attributed to Champions League money alone (also, they've dragged the likes of Molde into the CL on the back of their achievements.)
None of these factors are relevant here.
In answer to your other question; yes, 90% of them anyway. It's immediately evident from the way they express themselves. They're not hard to spot.1. The common denominator between Celtic/Rangers, Rosenborg, Man U/Arsenal/Chelsea is money. Thats why they dominate their respective leagues. A full-time club in the eL probably needs around €1.5 to €2 million a year. If one club gets access to €5 - 600,000, on top of its other income, that club has the potential for massive outlay on players, facilities etc. in relative terms to all other clubs.
2. Shels not getting any further in Europe will not hold eL clubs back. City, Bohs, Drogs, Derry, Longford, even Dublin City are all clubs with long term plans, who are striving to get better and better both on and off the field. The people who run these clubs want bigger, better more successful clubs themselves, they didn't suddenly think it would be a good idea becuse they saw Shels doing well in Europe. With the exception of Waterford, (and Pats and Rovers are too concerned with simple financial survival at the moment), all clubs in the eL are trying to raise the standard as much as they can, not looking for the lowest common denominator.
3. It may be your opinion Sheridan, but claiming that 90% of eL fans are knuckle-draggers is the same kind of negativeness you accuse those same knuckle-draggers of.
joeSoap
16/09/2004, 8:37 AM
If you want to seee clubs like Lazio at the cross cheer on shels.
No to mediocrity!
I thought Lazio were quite mediocre last season when I saw them... :D
inexile
16/09/2004, 8:55 AM
It might not be a sensible or logical argument but I hate Shels, they are our biggest rivals and it sickens me to see them doing well. I wonder were Rangers fans wishing Celtic luck against Barca last night or will Man City fans be wishing Utd luck against Lyon tonight, afterall it's for the good of the league! Of course they weren't because they are rivals and they hate each other and, in general, football fans take pleasure when their rivals are beaten. Shels are our rivals and I don't want them to do well,
isnt that the yob culture that prevails in England that sees them infamous throughtout Europe as a travelling band of supporters? Because they are so selfish and cant accept that their team cant win all the time and they hate their rivals so much that would be quite happy to kick the sh1te outta them cos at least that way they might have lost the match but they won the fight, maybe you think im being foolish but thats how it starts, you use the word hate and hatred leads to violent notions and action then if the yob culture starts here around football matches and continues on abroad we will be no better than the hooligans that run riot in the English game. To me it seems childish even as a staunch Celtic Fan if you wanna use that example I dont hate Rangers or their fans whats the point if I hate them hard enough will they see the error of their ways and support Celtic? I doubt it. Rivalry is fine hatred isnt.
2. Shels not getting any further in Europe will not hold eL clubs back. City, Bohs, Drogs, Derry, Longford, even Dublin City are all clubs with long term plans, who are striving to get better and better both on and off the field. The people who run these clubs want bigger, better more successful clubs themselves, they didn't suddenly think it would be a good idea becuse they saw Shels doing well in Europe. With the exception of Waterford, (and Pats and Rovers are too concerned with simple financial survival at the moment), all clubs in the eL are trying to raise the standard as much as they can, not looking for the lowest common denominator.
"Plans" have been round the LOI since 1922. Plans dont get you anywhere - money does.
I would want to explain wishing shels to do well tonight by using a Formula 1 analogy. Shels are going fast, use their slipstream to overtake them.
Rosenborgs succcess has allowed large amounts of money to go to other clubs in Norway. Ive been to three football grounds in Norway. All were way better than anything you'll find here. Brann Bergen who play in the second division have a bigger better and more modern stadium than the one which the Irish national team plays in.
"Plans" have been round the LOI since 1922. Plans dont get you anywhere - money does.So the money will get Shels somewhere, and those clubs that can't get the same type of money will get where exactly....?
I reiterate that I would like to see Shels do well on the pitch.
However, this attitude that somehow Shels success will see the rest of us right, those who realise this are "real" and superior eL fans, and anyone who says otherwise is a "knuckle-dragger" a "yob" and "is quite happy to kick the sh*te out of" rivals, is absolute bulls*ht, Eoin.
Oily Byrne and his cohorts don't give a tuppenny f*ck for this league, its fans or soccer in this country.
inexile
16/09/2004, 10:06 AM
but 'oily' byrne obviously does give a 4uck about football in this country because he is willing to get up off his arse and invest and try and bring his club forward which no matter what anyone says about him he has done
eoinh
16/09/2004, 10:06 AM
However, this attitude that somehow Shels success will see the rest of us right, those who realise this are "real" and superior eL fans, and anyone who says otherwise is a "knuckle-dragger" a "yob" and "is quite happy to kick the sh*te out of" rivals, is absolute bulls*ht, Eoin.
Firstly i didnt call anyone a "knuckle-dragger", a "yob" or whatever.
Secondly the last time shels played at the cross i saw a shels team that played professionaly and played us off the park. We deserved to lose that day. Pat Dolan has to get across to the players why we lost and fix it. Moaning about shels and hoping they wont do well in Europe doesnt really help city. Learning from them probably will.
We should be able to do it with a bit more style obviously.
observer
16/09/2004, 10:15 AM
I am interested in the comparisons being made between the development and advances shown by the smaller clubs in Europe and EL clubs. One point not being made is the fact that we are an Island. It is far easier for small clubs on the mainland to attract players of a good standard from neighbouring countries. Players who, while talented enough, cannot make it into their own countries Premier League teams. These players are also affordable because their prime motivation is to get playing and be seen. We have to rely on home grown talent who cannot make the breakthrough across channel and return home. :ball: Unless of course you are Roddie Collins and have just opened a Dublin based vacation centre for the retired proffessional footballers association of Great Britain. :D
inexile
16/09/2004, 10:23 AM
i agree entirely observer roddy collins should be 4ucked and burned in my opinion because when he was manager of carlisle he was saying how high the standrs was compared to the EL and brought a wagon load of irish players with him well why didnt he bring them back with him? Instead of bring mercenaries over for matches says what he thinks about irish players!! Im all for having as many internationals in the league as possible but not a 40 year old failed manager who played for England to a nations ridicule or a Nigerian striker who could never cut the mustard at the highest level
patsh
16/09/2004, 10:31 AM
but 'oily' byrne obviously does give a 4uck about football in this country because he is willing to get up off his arse and invest and try and bring his club forward which no matter what anyone says about him he has doneAs does most everybody else in this country. As far as I know, no one is trying to bring their club backwards...(except maybe Waterford? according to some of their fans)
Firstly i didnt call anyone a "knuckle-dragger", a "yob" or whatever.
Secondly the last time shels played at the cross i saw a shels team that played professionaly and played us off the park. We deserved to lose that day. Pat Dolan has to get across to the players why we lost and fix it. Moaning about shels and hoping they wont do well in Europe doesnt really help city. Learning from them probably will.
We should be able to do it with a bit more style obviously.1. I didn't say you used those terms Eoin, they have been used on this thread though.
2. I also saw a thoroughly professional display by Shels out the cross, and we were well beaten. Its up to Pat Dolan to sort this out, and I also reckon EVERYONE connected with City knows exactly how far behind we are and what we have to do.
However, I simply fail to see any connection between this and demanding of fans that they wish Shels success in Europe.:confused:
inexile
16/09/2004, 10:49 AM
your just being petty now of course no one wants to bring there club backwards but there isnt too many people who are will to invest in the EL clubs or there local school boy clubs for that matter so we cant really knock anyone who does
dcfcsteve
16/09/2004, 11:10 AM
Everyone's focusing on the additional revenue that Shels could attract from a relatively small number of European games (3 or 4 home games in the UEFA group stages - only 1 or 2 of which would be big-name sell-outs - and TV rights to 2 or 3 live matches) as if that will suddenly give them a sufficiently large war-chest to dominate Irish football for all eternity.
The real financial benefit of ANY Irish club doing well in Europe is not from such one-off, opposition-dependent income. It's instead from rich idiots like Courtenay, McManus, Magnier etc, who suddenly twig that it'd be a much better investment to put a small amount of money into an Irish team with genuinely strong potential (Bohs, Cork, Derry etc) than to put a much larger sum into a nothing team like Carlisle that would be unlikely to deliver any return. or a much bigger sum into Man U or Celtic with a much lower likely yield on your investment.
If Irish clubs keep themselves in the public eye through European exploits, sooner or later somebody will see them as a good low-cost financial investment. You would only need to spend a few million on an Irish team that within 3-4yrs could realistically be in the Champions League group stages. Hey presto - serious return on your money for the bored rich, and you become a local hero for Irish sport. No great negative impact if it doesn't work out, as the initial outlay would be relatively small versus your net worth.
Without reliable forms of income, teams can't afford to sign all the best players in the League and dominate it totally. Praying for group-stage qualification each year and games against big European clubs is not a reliable form of income to budget against. Speculating in this way would be foolish for Shels or any other Irish club (ref. Leeds United). Shels have one of the lowest reliable incomes in the league, as their crowds are crap.
The real benefit of any Irish team doing well in Europe would therefore be to stimulate external investment in the league. Ironically, that investment could well go to other clubs than the likes of Shels.
patsh
16/09/2004, 11:16 AM
your just being petty now of course no one wants to bring there club backwards but there isnt too many people who are will to invest in the EL clubs or there local school boy clubs for that matter so we cant really knock anyone who doesHow am I being petty?
You claimed Byrne was interested in eL soccer because he wants to bring his club forward. Doesn't everybody?
Is pointing this out being petty?...:rolleyes:
inexile
16/09/2004, 11:23 AM
thats not what im talking about what i meant was you are in no position to knock him as he pumps his money in to his club when i bet you havent gone near your local schoolboy junior or el club to try and help in any way you can whether that be by donating either your time or money as i have already stated its obvious no one wants to bring their club backward but how many of us actually make a serios efforet to bring it forward and until we do we cant be in a position to knock people who do
patsh
16/09/2004, 11:23 AM
Good points dcfcsteve, and I've already made the arugment before in different threads that a higher profile for the eL, no matter what club brings that profile, might attract investment to some eL clubs.
However, I resent the continually made argument that fans who do not want to see a rival club get ahead of their club are doing the league a diservice. If thats the case, lets disband all clubs, form one big team and we can all support that team together...
patsh
16/09/2004, 11:26 AM
thats not what im talking about what i meant was you are in no position to knock him as he pumps his money in to his club when i bet you havent gone near your local schoolboy junior or el club to try and help in any way you can whether that be by donating either your time or money as i have already stated its obvious no one wants to bring their club backward but how many of us actually make a serios efforet to bring it forward and until we do we cant be in a position to knock people who doA small bit of advice to you. Don't assume you ever know anything about another poster. You have no idea what position the poster may or may not be in.
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