Labour After Gilmore

[culloty82]

With a number of Labour Senators on the brink of rebellion over the Social Welfare Bill, and grassroots members backing Keaveney as party chairman, it appears highly likely that Gilmore will be challenged for the Labour leadership in the next 12 months. In that event, it appears Burton would become interim leader, but her popularity has dimmed due to the last week's events. Certainly, "Old Labour" seems to be attempting to regain control from Democratic Left, but with most of the current ministers on the brink of retirement, and younger TDs facing inevitable defeat, will Sinn Féin become the main left-wing party after 2016?

[wonder88]

It will not be that easy for "Old Labour" to get their party back. Once the comrades from the Workers Party get control of something it is hard to remove them, see RTE for a good example. Look at the number of ex-stickies in other media organisations as well, top positions in education, the arts and semi-state sector. Still if the labour grassroots membership have any hope of saving their party, they must back Keaveney against Gilmore/Rabbitt/Sherlock etc. Fianna Fáil always claimed to represent the working man in Irish political life and until the last election always received the biggest share of the urban working class vote. Gilmore's Labour seem to think that following a liberal social agenda; gay marriage, abortion etc will get them some public support while letting the Fine Gael Tories set the economic policies.

[Eminence Grise]

Well, he went today, having survived quite a few challenges along the way. Disastrous campaign, disastrous elections for Gilmore. Mr Anonymous in his ministerial portfolio (since the Good Friday Agreement, FA has really meant, well, f.a. in fairness), maybe now Labour can start to weed out the old DL rump. Seems to be the young turks in the party who moved the no confidence motion, which - if they can get the numbers - might lead to a loss of power for the old brigade. No harm, there. Who's likely to take over?

[BonnieShels]

I think this is the end of Labour.

SF have likely cemented their place as the party of the Left. Shame, but this was always going to happen after they went into government with FG.

No stomach at all. And a GE coming sooner than we should have hoped. Le sigh.

Wrote a wee bit about it as he resigned.



Midterm Elections: The Aftermath
So it has happened. Gilmore has been pushed. The disastrous performance by Labour at the polls meant his removal was swift, but it will not be painless.

That some of the leadership of the party have expressed surprise at the result of these elections is rather sobering. We knew this was going to happen. It is mid-term of an unpopular government. These elections always register as protest votes. The sheer volume of independents and one-policy candidates elected shows this.

The major issue at hand here is that there is now an instability within Labour. Or should I say, a greater instability within Labour. Labour, as a political party, are constantly in a reactionary mode. They rarely think long-term and lurch from one crisis to the next – one purge to the next, one election to the next – and on and on it has gone since they abstained from the 1918 election. Yes 1918.

In the aftermath of a triumphant election in 2011, Labour had a sniff of government, and given it was the last opportunity for the old-school wing of the party to get a ministry it was never countenanced that they would allow Fine Gael go about the renewal of the economy as a minority government.

That single decision has possibly dealt a fatal blow to the Labour Party. Sinn Féin are now the major party of the Left, but the most worrying aspect of the aftermath of this election is, of course, Fianna Fáil’s success at local level. Yes, Fianna Fáil. The Fianna Fáil that caused the destruction of the country under the watchful eye of Bertie and the Brians. No matter what they throw at us, it seems that as a people we have an incredible capacity to forgive them. I have known people to talk about John Bruton attempting to tax children’s shoes in the 1982 budget as a reason to not vote for Fine Gael, but it seems the scale of the mismanagement of the country from 1997 – 2011 does not warrant a similar period of time in the shadows.

The one silver lining is that Dublin seems to have had enough of FF. Maybe the rest of the country can stop using pot-holes and “cute-hoorism” as a reason to elect a local representative. We can but hope.

What does this mean for the 2016 general election? Given Labour’s penchant for self-destruction, I don’t think we will have to wait that long. Shame, because we are just about to “turn the corner”.

http://www.krank.ie/category/opinions/midterm-elections-aftermath/

[osarusan]

SF have likely cemented their place as the party of the Left
　

Ｉ　really really hope not.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Labour will end up with 10-15 TDs and go back to being the bleating opposition party they're so much more comfortable being. Sinn Fein will get into power and lose support when it turns out a "wealth tax" won't solve all problems.

[Eminence Grise]

I'm not so sure that it is the end of Labour, Bonnie. I'm holding my fire on that one until I see a complete breakdown of the 'Others' - surely the media could have listed the ULA constituent parties and the Greens separately from the Independents?

SF are clearly the big winners on the left, followed by the ULA parties, but the problem of having a huge number of new candidates is their lack of experience. Add to that the fact that most councils are now going find it very hard to find to achieve consensus on key issues like balancing their budget and I think it's likely that people will see that the new left is really not that well equipped to handle governing, even at local level. If they fail to pass the budget, the council will be suspended; if they pass it but at the expense of small businesses, they'll be hypocrites. And that's even before they get round to abolishing water charges, the household charge, the EU, Angela Merkel and that decadent symbol of the west, Santa Claus! Far easier to be in a position of strength as the opposition shouting no - which, arguably, is where Labour could have been had Gilmore not been power mad in 2011 - than actually having to deliver something tangible now.

All in all, though there's been much talk of a left-right realignment which makes a FG-FF coalition quite likely after the next general election, I'm not sure how the left, as fragmented as it is, will find the coherent shape that will fatally marginalise Labour. Remember there's not a lot of love lost among the ULA parties. A lot depends on who succeeds Gilmore: I think it has to be somebody from the younger side of the party and definitely not connected to DL.

[BonnieShels]

I'm not so sure that it is the end of Labour, Bonnie. I'm holding my fire on that one until I see a complete breakdown of the 'Others' - surely the media could have listed the ULA constituent parties and the Greens separately from the Independents?

SF are clearly the big winners on the left, followed by the ULA parties, but the problem of having a huge number of new candidates is their lack of experience. Add to that the fact that most councils are now going find it very hard to find to achieve consensus on key issues like balancing their budget and I think it's likely that people will see that the new left is really not that well equipped to handle governing, even at local level. If they fail to pass the budget, the council will be suspended; if they pass it but at the expense of small businesses, they'll be hypocrites. And that's even before they get round to abolishing water charges, the household charge, the EU, Angela Merkel and that decadent symbol of the west, Santa Claus! Far easier to be in a position of strength as the opposition shouting no - which, arguably, is where Labour could have been had Gilmore not been power mad in 2011 - than actually having to deliver something tangible now.

All in all, though there's been much talk of a left-right realignment which makes a FG-FF coalition quite likely after the next general election, I'm not sure how the left, as fragmented as it is, will find the coherent shape that will fatally marginalise Labour. Remember there's not a lot of love lost among the ULA parties. A lot depends on who succeeds Gilmore: I think it has to be somebody from the younger side of the party and definitely not connected to DL.

The only way Labour will do anything of note after the next election will be to leave govt ASAP.

The problem with that strategy is that people will accuse them of short-termism and lilly-liveredness, and quite rightly.

If we finally have a a decent economic outlook come 2016 then it will be FG who will make the gains.


I had a quick gander at the Euro results and some of the Dublin council wards. The major thing gleaned is that FF whilst they have done far better than they should have given that they are poison it does seem to me that they are transfer-toxic. So they are getting their core vote but not much thereafter.

To be perfectly honest I think the real winners at these elections have been FG. They should have been decimated given how unpopular the government has been (plus the Shatter thing not happening so long ago and it being akin to a 1000 cuts) and yet whilst their vote is down nationally they aren't that far behind FF on councils. Given the amount of loony lefty independent candidates on so many councils they are now holding the balance of power with FF and SF. Going to be very interesting leading to 2016.

[bennocelt]

Dont know all the hate towards SF, but then I see the odd blueshirt on here:p As if the last 4/5/7 governments of FF/FG/Lab were great fun for the country unless you buy into the fg/lab tirade of we "had to make the hard decisions". They seem to be doing quite well up north in case you didnt notice!

[Macy]

Labour should never have gone in after the last election - they didn't have the leverage they needed to make a big enough difference. It still would've been a gamble though, as the media would probably still blame them for decisions, because they didn't go in. I do think they have watered down FG's right wing tendancies more than most commentators would like to admit though - any gains are more least worse rather than positives so hard to highlight or get credit for. Although I still think the "Labour Lies" (or even Government Lies) is pretty much bs - anyone who thought that the new Government wouldn't be carrying on a similar agenda, given the position the state was in when it came to power, was deluded.

As for it's long term survival, it needs to move away from the old guard. So sorry Joan, your time has come and gone unfortunately. Even Alex White maybe too old. And it needs to attract back some of the disaffected that have left the party. It'll be a long slog, with Sinn Fein now more socially acceptable - none of the mud thrown at them by sections of the media really stuck, and they've a lot of elected representatives that are't tainted by a history in the troubles. It'll be interesting whether the shinners have the balls, which labour didn't, to try and force a FG/FF coalition or an FG minority Government.

I think the rise of "independents" is a bit overstated to be honest, certainly if it's tried to be tied into a rise of the left. A lot of the supposed independents originate in the main parties. In a couple of areas that I'd take an interest, a lot are essentially independent FF. In the Bray electoral area, several of the independents originate in FF. In Longford, enough FF gene pool "independents" had done a deal with FF proper to take joint control of the council before the count had even finished!

[bennocelt]

The medical card fiasco was something that affected a lot of people, and was a further nail in their coffin.
Its comedy gold if Joan Burton gets the leadership, Giftgrub will be in overdrive.

[osarusan]

Dont know all the hate towards SF
Their economic policies are scarily nonsensical.

[TheBoss]

Their economic policies are scarily nonsensical.

That is a typical right-wing propaganda comment there. The left in every single country are always labelled 'looney', 'crazy', 'mad' etc. I suppose the right-wings economic policy has done everything sensibly over the last 10-15 years.

BTW, just looking at this neutrally ;)

[bennocelt]

AS opposed to FF which bankrupt the country, or fg/lab with the inspirational idea of taxing ordinary people to the hilt. Both a masterclass in economics:rolleyes:

Was wondering with a budget coming on in a few weeks/months (?) would Labour pull out to save face with the voters? Watch this space perhaps?:p

[culloty82]

I think this is the end of Labour.

SF have likely cemented their place as the party of the Left. Shame, but this was always going to happen after they went into government with FG.

No stomach at all. And a GE coming sooner than we should have hoped. Le sigh.

Wrote a wee bit about it as he resigned.



http://www.krank.ie/category/opinions/midterm-elections-aftermath/

In fairness, Labour's two major problems have been untackled for decades, and are issues that either SF or the Left (as shorthand for the alphabet soup) have taken advantage of:

1. SF and the Socialists have been far more active in terms of campaigning on social issues and general community activities - that's what gets you councillors and ultimately, TDs.

2. Sinn Féin have reversed the traditional Achilles heel of the Irish left, that is, they started out picking up rural TDs before building up a rural base, something Labour has never quite mastered.

A new leader may ease short-term pressures, but long-term analysis of national structures and internal philosophy must be simultaneous.

[osarusan]

I suppose the right-wings economic policy has done everything sensibly over the last 10-15 years.



AS opposed to FF which bankrupt the country, or fg/lab with the inspirational idea of taxing ordinary people to the hilt. Both a masterclass in economics:rolleyes:


What is this, the first page of the Sinn Fein playbook? If somebody mentions their economic policy, immediately point out how bad the others are? And throw in a comment about right-wind propaganda while you're at it.

Pathetic stuff.

[TheBoss]

What is this, the first page of the Sinn Fein playbook? If somebody mentions their economic policy, immediately point out how bad the others are? And throw in a comment about right-wind propaganda while you're at it.

Pathetic stuff.

Again, your first sentence is another attack.

You are saying their policies are nonsensical and not giving any reason why they are. It is an uneducated response, which is one of the many reasons why people are fed up with the usual parties. If you explain why these policies wont work, your opinion will be taken seriously and then we can have a proper discussion about the policies.

[Charlie Darwin]

Again, your first sentence is another attack.

You are saying their policies are nonsensical and not giving any reason why they are. It is an uneducated response, which is one of the many reasons why people are fed up with the usual parties. If you explain why these policies wont work, your opinion will be taken seriously and then we can have a proper discussion about the policies.
Decent article in the Indo (I know, I know) about how costed by the DOF or not, they're a bit daft and populist: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/not-everything-sinn-fein-says-is-naive-nonsense-but-too-much-doesnt-add-up-30306719.html

Not to say the various pre-election plans put forward by the other parties aren't daft too.

[osarusan]

Again, your first sentence is another attack.

You are saying their policies are nonsensical and not giving any reason why they are. It is an uneducated response, which is one of the many reasons why people are fed up with the usual parties. If you explain why these policies wont work, your opinion will be taken seriously and then we can have a proper discussion about the policies.

My first post was not an attack of any kind. It was my opinion, clearly stated.

It's pretty rich to say you're looking for a proper discussion when your initial effort is to assume I must be right-wing and believe the left is loony, because I'm critical of Sinn Fein's economic policy.

[TheBoss]

My first post was not an attack of any kind. It was my opinion, clearly stated.

Yes, I accept your first comment was not an attack.


It's pretty rich to say you're looking for a proper discussion when your initial effort is to assume I must be right-wing and believe the left is loony, because I'm critical of Sinn Fein's economic policy.

I would like to see the evidence of this claim, cause I never said any of that.

[Macy]

AS opposed to FF which bankrupt the country, or fg/lab with the inspirational idea of taxing ordinary people to the hilt. Both a masterclass in economics:rolleyes:
What choice did the current Government have, because FF/ Greens had bankrupted the State (partly due to the bank guarantee that SF voted for), and left the new Government in an IMF programme? It's delusional to think any combination of Government would've or could've done anything different at that stage. A wealth tax wouldn't and isn't enough to plug the hole.

[pineapple stu]

Yes, I accept your first comment was not an attack.
So you accept that "Sinn Féin's economic policies are scarily nonsensical" wasn't an attack?

Would you like to address the point so? Osarusan can back up his stance in due course, but there's no reason why you can't back up your view to the contrary.

For the record, I agree with osarusan. Here (http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/Pre-Budget2014Submission.pdf)'s SF's alternative budget. On page 5, they say that they'd only cut E2.5bn from the budget, not E3.1bn. The budget deficit needs to be cut as quickly as possible; holding back on it is no good. Here's an example to demonstrate this -

In 2009, our deficit was E20bn. Then plan was to cut the deficit by E3bn a year. That means -


2009 deficit - 20bn
2010 deficit - 17bn
2011 deficit - 14bn
2012 deficit - 11bn
2013 deficit - 8bn
2014 deficit - 5bn
2015 deficit - 2bn

Total additional deficit since the bust - 77bn.

Let's say FG had really been nasty and made big cuts at the start - 10bn a year. So 2010 - 10bn. 2011 - breakeven. Additional deficit - 30bn. Savings - 47bn. Of course it would have hurt the economy, but then the adjustment would have been over. Would the effect have been E30bn? Hardly.

But what SF want to do is slow this deficit reduction. Let's see what would have happened if we'd cut E2.5bn per year (SF's proposal) instead of the current E3bn -

2009 deficit - 20bn
2010 deficit - 17.5bn
2011 deficit - 15bn
2012 deficit - 12.5bn
2013 deficit - 10bn
2014 deficit - 7.5bn
2015 deficit - 5bn
2016 deficit - 2.5bn

That's 90bn. So an additional E13bn just by slowing the cuts! E13,000,000,000 is an awful lot of money to borrow for no good reason, and that's before you factor in the additional interest costs on borrowing all of that. That's an extra E2,900 for every single person in the country, before interest. They don't mention that in their manifesto, do they?

I actually agree with some bits they have, but that's only to be expected. Reducing mortgage interest allowance against rental income to 40% should reduce interest in rental properties, and so reduce demand and allow prices to fall. But it'd also be likely to raise rents in the medium term as people need to cover their investment. Not mentioned either, of course.

Just as an obvious example which is overlooked. The bank guarantee was bad, but we need to reduce our deficit as quickly as possible. If anything, we're doing it too slowly at the moment. What we don't need is populist nonsense about how we can reduce it even slower. We can't.

(Though tbh, my gut feeling is that the country is utterly FUBARed anyway, and the only reason it appears otherwise at the moment is the mortgage arrears issue, which is incomprehensibly massive. While no-one seems willing to tackle that problem - and while the people are still guaranteeing everyone's unpaid mortgages - bailout II can only be around the corner.)

[bennocelt]

What choice did the current Government have, because FF/ Greens had bankrupted the State (partly due to the bank guarantee that SF voted for), and left the new Government in an IMF programme? It's delusional to think any combination of Government would've or could've done anything different at that stage. A wealth tax wouldn't and isn't enough to plug the hole.

Ireland isnt Albania, the country is still generating billions of euros every year.
So tax the ordinary people but dont touch those at the top! That's not very enlightening.

Ireland is a very divided nation, and it still has an awful lot of wealthy individuals that could be paying a higher rate of tax. People who voted for SF (and Labour) dont want be paying unfair taxes that are just going straight to service debts built up by the banks.
And I always find it strange that corporation tax is untouchable, but go ahead tax away on the workers and people who cant afford swf at the moment.
Jesus we dont have to paying so much banking debt back, which is not our debt anyway. Greece defaulted and is still in the club, getting better deals than our yes men in Europe.
Its delusional to pay back debts that isnt your own, and please dont tell me we are in all this together!

Martin Wolf. Ireland got stuffed
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ireland-got-stuffed-banking-debt-martin-wolf-213654753.html

[bennocelt]

Interesting to have a look back, some called it right- LiamtillIdie, others maybe not so....:D
http://foot.ie/threads/147904-Election-2011-Results

[osarusan]

Osarusan can back up his stance in due course
My main issue is covered nicely by the article linked to by Charlie:


How could it make massive savings in government expenditure while decrying vicious government cutbacks? The answer was to go after anyone and anything that looks like it earns more than €100,000 per year. Hit their wages, their pensions, their assets, their holiday homes, their inheritance, and their tax bill. It sounds fair on paper to someone earning the average industrial wage and struggling to make ends meet.

But the party ignores the possible consequences of these actions. It doesn't appear to grasp the implications for foreign direct investment, employment creation, investment and the fact that people who really do have lots of money can move it, and themselves, abroad very easily.

Its most high-profile initiative, which it originally estimated could raise €800m, was a wealth tax. Sinn Fein wanted it applied to individuals with net assets (after debt is taken into account) of over €1m. It would exclude agricultural land and business assets. But everything else would be up for grabs.

People who really have a lot of money are prepared to move it. Deposits held in Irish banks help fund loans to businesses. A modest €200,000 tax put on tax exiles in 2010 saw just 24 of them pay it. That fell to 14 in 2012.

But the document remains on shaky ground elsewhere, too. It wants a new 48pc tax rate for those earning over €100,000 per year, despite figures showing that a very significant percentage of the total income tax take comes from that group already.

They go on about how their policies have been costed, but they haven't really. They've taken figures from existing tax figures, and extrapolated their own projections from them, without really figuring in the impact their tax increases will have.

It's like the LOI argument that if you have 1,000 people paying 14 quid to watch a game, you make 14,000 gross, but if you increase the price to 20 quid, you now get 20,000 gross.

[Macy]

Ireland isnt Albania, the country is still generating billions of euros every year.
So tax the ordinary people but dont touch those at the top! That's not very enlightening.
I'm not disagreeing with the theory, I'm disagreeing with how practical it would be to implement wealth taxes, high corporation taxes without other states coming on board, or a raft of other legislation (which would no doubt be challenged constitutionally).

[pineapple stu]

The elephant in the cupboard, I think, is this (http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/property-homes/superterm-mortgages-of-35-years-push-up-house-prices-30310233.html) - 35 year mortgages being brought back for first-time buyers.

No comment from any political party, and none expected I'm sure. But it's one of the most dangerous news items in recent years - one that shows we have learned literally nothing from the bust. Even the Indo has started realising that all our eggs in the property basket is bad. We now need some political party to start legislating for caps on borrowing. Instead, Noonan is on record (http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/theres-no-housing-bubble-michael-noonan-wants-prices-to-rise-30168455.html) saying he wants to push prices up.

So basically, we're screwed whoever's in charge.

[bennocelt]

I'm not disagreeing with the theory, I'm disagreeing with how practical it would be to implement wealth taxes, high corporation taxes without other states coming on board, or a raft of other legislation (which would no doubt be challenged constitutionally).

it would be nice to think that with the recent shake up in the EU elections that all this might get some politicians to have a rethink, but many commentators have said it wont make one iota of difference. Full steam ahead for Merkel and co.
Do the hard left and right blocs even have the ability to halt any legislation/laws?

[OwlsFan]

Sinn Fein in power. The mind boggles. From my history, I recall a German party who tried to obtain power by revolutionary means and when that failed, they decided to try the ballot box method and were eventually elected as a result of an economic crisis and then kept power by the gun, never voluntarily to release it. Who knows...

Anyone who is surprised by Labour's demise, doesn't remember than this has happened in the past. FF feck up the country and FG and Labour are left holding the baby and introduce austerity measures which go down like a lead balloon with the public so FF are re-elected on the back of FG and Labour having sorted the mess out but who get no thanks from the public. The junior party in the coalition gets screwed (like the Lib Dems across the water) and so history repeats itself, the difference this time is that SF is there now to pick up Labour's vote. The SDLP have also been destroyed by SF in the North, for reasons I can't quite fathom.

So perhaps Labour might go the way of the SDLP this time.

[dahamsta]

With absolutely no reference to any of the posts in the thread, I just want to add that the thread title makes me smile. I don't think there's any viable candidate right now that will make Labour better, but I was disgusted when he became leader and I'm delighted to see him go. He was an appalling leader, from start to finish, completely defeating the purpose of his party.

[bennocelt]

Sinn Fein in power. The mind boggles. From my history, I recall a German party who tried to obtain power by revolutionary means and when that failed, they decided to try the ballot box method and were eventually elected as a result of an economic crisis and then kept power by the gun, never voluntarily to release it. Who knows...

Anyone who is surprised by Labour's demise, doesn't remember than this has happened in the past. FF feck up the country and FG and Labour are left holding the baby and introduce austerity measures which go down like a lead balloon with the public so FF are re-elected on the back of FG and Labour having sorted the mess out but who get no thanks from the public. The junior party in the coalition gets screwed (like the Lib Dems across the water) and so history repeats itself, the difference this time is that SF is there now to pick up Labour's vote. The SDLP have also been destroyed by SF in the North, for reasons I can't quite fathom.

So perhaps Labour might go the way of the SDLP this time.

Thats funny:D

[OwlsFan]

I suppose the restoration of Ireland’s international reputation which is crucial for investor confidence and job creation counts for nothing. Unfortunately that comes at a cost of various new taxes but the money can't be plucked from the air. Mess ups include the removal of the medical card but when you consider the disastrous state of affairs the country was in when the coalition was elected, I think it has done a good job. They made a number of promises they couldn't keep like all politicians but they didn't realise that the position was as bad as it turned out to be.

I worry for Labour though. In the past when it was crucified at the polls, it didn't have another viable socialist party breathing down its neck. This time there is a nationalist and socialist (hmmmm sounds familiar) party to pick up the pieces. Is the damage terminal like it is for the SDLP?

[bennocelt]

Depends who you are though, ordinary people taxed to the hilt and losing medical cards and all sort of basic entitlements But yeah we have to keep our international investors happy! tsk:rolleyes:

Home at moment, country is on a bit of a bounce no doubt but how much of that is down to FG?
They havent really radically changed anything within the country, and a new bubble is starting to emerge in Dublin!

[Macy]

Depends who you are though, ordinary people taxed to the hilt and losing medical cards and all sort of basic entitlements But yeah we have to keep our international investors happy! tsk:rolleyes:

Home at moment, country is on a bit of a bounce no doubt but how much of that is down to FG?
They havent really radically changed anything within the country, and a new bubble is starting to emerge in Dublin!
The state was in an IMF programme, what did you (or anyone else) really expect them to do? They were always going to follow the programme, and we do now have our economic soverienty back after FF/ Greens lost it.

What other "basic entitlements" have people lost? Don't quote water, as a significant proportion of the population already pay for that anyway either through their own provision or group schemes. Medical cards were never an entitlement - unfortunately, as I believe in an NHS/ Universal Health Insurance system with equality of access. The whole thing that's bugged me about the whole medical card debate - when it was criticising the Under 6 medical card for all it wasn't right that a millionaire got it for their child, but it's apparently the worst thing ever if a millionaire with cancer loses theirs.

[bennocelt]

The state was in an IMF programme, what did you (or anyone else) really expect them to do? They were always going to follow the programme, and we do now have our economic soverienty back after FF/ Greens lost it.

What other "basic entitlements" have people lost? Don't quote water, as a significant proportion of the population already pay for that anyway either through their own provision or group schemes. Medical cards were never an entitlement - unfortunately, as I believe in an NHS/ Universal Health Insurance system with equality of access. The whole thing that's bugged me about the whole medical card debate - when it was criticising the Under 6 medical card for all it wasn't right that a millionaire got it for their child, but it's apparently the worst thing ever if a millionaire with cancer loses theirs.

Your ideas there not mine. But I would agree about the NHS style scheme.

Economic sovereignty? Give over, we have to show the boys in the EU/IMF all future budgets and take directions on what we can and cant do with our economy. I'd expect them to at least bat a little better for the country, not all agree to everything.
But the solution was to go on a big tax initiative, thats all well and good but its not a new radical approach. Fact is a lot of ordinary people in Ireland are not doing very well.
The solution: more tax. Brilliant!:rolleyes: