Irl Vs Swiss -Ambition undermined by crushing fear of defeat

[thejollyrodger]

Ambition undermined by crushing fear of defeat


AS the Irish players emerged from the basement dressing room at the St Jakob stadium on Wednesday night, one player went his own way. While the usual players stopped to talk to the Press and the equally predictable growled and snarled as they headed for the bus, Roy Keane stayed alone with his thoughts.

Apart from a press conference on his return to the squad in May, Keane has stayed quiet each time he has joined up with the Ireland squad. Four years ago, it was different. Ireland walked out of the Amsterdam ArenA with a 2-2 draw after taking a two-goal lead. While Mick McCarthy celebrated, Keane upped the stakes with his famous comments that it was time for the Irish side to be looking for more than a party and a moral victory.

There are fewer parties thrown within the Irish squad these days and perhaps that pleases Keane. He also has a relationship of trust and respect with Brian Kerr that he never had with McCarthy. Kerr was known to have asked Keane when he came out of retirement not to say anything that could undermine the manager. It is a sign of the change in Keane - and an indication of his working relationship with the Irish manager - that so far he has complied with that request.

Four years ago, Keane didn't find it so easy and while the side that drew in Switzerland may be less developed than the experienced team which played in Amsterdam, there was as much reason for suggesting last Wednesday that this was two points dropped rather than the point gained that quickly became the party line for players and staff.

Given the events of 11 months ago, there was every reason for the Irish squad to believe that line. The defeat of October 2003 appears to be seared into the souls of Brian Kerr and his staff. The Swiss side that Ireland played last Wednesday was worse than the poor side that beat Ireland last October.

The Irish side has improved, but a failure to control things in midfield, along with some poor use of the ball from the full-backs, Steven Carr in particular, created some chaotic moments last Wednesday. Ireland had to rely heavily on Shay Given as the Swiss attacked on the back of Ireland's mistakes but, critically, when Ireland attacked they found time and space around the Swiss goal which could and should have led to more away goals.

"There's a feeling that we could have won it," Damien Duff, Ireland's most impressive attacking player said later. "In the dressing-room, the lads were saying that the three points were there for the taking."

Like the rest of the players, Duff went on to express himself happy with the point as Ireland achieved their target for the two matches of four points.

There are fewer parties thrown within the Irish squad these days and perhaps that pleases Keane

But the group already shows no indication of working along pre-planned, formulaic lines. Israel's draw last Saturday with France indicates that there may be more than just three teams playing for the top two places. Kerr is characteristically aware of the progress in Israeli football and he will not be under-estimating them.

"When the draw was made I felt that Israel had been making improvements in the last few years. They've become much more competitive, they've heavily invested in their own football and their teams in the European club competitions have done very well, getting to the later rounds of the Champions League. Their players have become more valuable now around Europe and clubs are interested in signing their players. There is a great passion for football there, a great pride in their country. I'm not surprised, but we can only do our own stuff, get our own points and when we play the other teams try to do damage to them."

Ireland had the potential on the pitch to do more damage to the Swiss than they did last Wednesday. A draw may have been the objective, but once it became clear that the Swiss were at their weakest when Ireland attacked; their strongest when they had the ball, Ireland should have been given the courageous direction to go and win the game, shake the group up. If Israel were to beat Switzerland in Basle, suddenly the point gained last Wednesday would become two lost.

But the errors of the first half, added to the fear of another failure in Basle, resulted in a conservative message being drilled into the players at half-time. Ireland, Kerr said later, had been cavalier. The players were told to tighten up in midfield where Hakan Yakin was finding room in the danger area in front of the defenders. The Swiss would be pushed out wide where they would find less room as the full-backs were told not to get forward.

In effect this mainly applied to Steve Finnan, who had linked effectively with Damien Duff on a couple of occasions, not so well on a few others when Ireland were caught on the counter-attack.

On the other side of the field, one would imagine the directions to Carr were simple: stay on the pitch. Carr had another poor game - uncomfortable on the ball, he showed no understanding with the inexperienced Reid and instead spent his evening picking fights with team-mates and opponents. While Kilbane was guilty of hesitancy in midfield in the build-up to the Swiss goal, he was presented with a horror pass from Carr who could see what was ahead of him and should have knocked the ball away.

Having been booked early in the first-half, he was lucky that the poor referee didn't choose to make things easier for the Swiss by sending him off in the second. If John O'Shea is fit, Carr will struggle to keep Finnan out of the side for the trip to Paris. Ireland are likely to be cautious (if they defended deep on Wednesday, how far back will they go to combat the pace of Henry and Cisse?) but they will have to play a lot better if they are to take the point they would be entitled to be satisfied with.

Kerr is hopeful that Keane's return and a series of matches before the October date will give the former captain a greater sharpness in Paris.

Keane follows no establishment line so maybe he felt it was better to head for the bus rather than face the media and be tempted to say Ireland could do better. Maybe he was disappointed in himself.

On the other side of the field, one would imagine the directions to Carr were simple: stay on the pitch

For the first 45 minutes on Wednesday night, the player's lack of match practice manifested itself in a rookie's inability to keep the ball. All that Keane had learned over more than a decade at the highest level seemed to be abandoned as he put Carr and then Andy O'Brien under pressure with sloppy passes.

The second half was better as he took it upon himself to lead the more conservative Irish midfield away from goal on occasion, but there must be a worry that when the game is ragged, Keane will find himself off the pace.

Kerr, however, felt the game was progress. "Roy's had a good spell out of it, he's played a couple of friendly games which were quite decent and now he came back into the real heat. It was a hard game for him, it was a hard game for everybody but I think he contributed very well. His passing sharpened as the game went on and he made some important tackles."

It remains to be seen what drama will be produced from Old Trafford before the next game, but Kerr insists there is an amicable relationship. "Roy badly wanted to play. It was his own desire combined with the fact that his injury made progress. United are aware of how professional we are and the quality of our own medical back-up. They know we haven't risked any players and we have ensured that their players get the best possible treatment and protection when they are with us. I think that was part of it, but the main part was that Roy wanted it so badly."

The desire and the leadership Keane offers will remain essential if Ireland are to keep their discipline and prosper in Paris. He may not have been able to make himself heard on Wednesday night, but Steve Finnan was not alone in noticing that if a player cannot hear Keane, he can still see his "look". It is a glance which encourages nearly all to raise their game.

Stories abounded in Basle of Keane's new nature. He was among the jokers on the plane that flew out from Dublin and upon arrival in Basle he stood at the luggage carousel in long conversation with Graham Barrett. Moments like those cannot be under-estimated as Kerr goes about shaping the young team.

Perhaps when they are wiser, Kerr will be bolder. Maybe the dangers of defeat were far greater than the rewards from victory last Wednesday.

Ireland have an ambitious manager who can achieve great things, but he must not let those ambitions be undermined by the forces of conservatism.

Dion Fanning,

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1249016&issue_id=11410

[Superhoops]

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1249016&issue_id=11410

Articles like this make you wonder what Roy's agenda with Ireland is?

Is he (a) looking to take over from Brian Kerr (b) using Ireland's games as warm-ups for Man.U (c) worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?

I suspect probably all three. On Wednesday he looked uninterested, showed none of his leadership skills when we were under the cosh and looked like he was not fit. Yesterday, a mere three days later, the bite and snarl were back with a MOM performance.

Warning to Brian Kerr 'beware of cute Cork hoors bearing gifts'! :confused:

[tonycuna]

Is he (a) looking to take over from Brian Kerr (b) using Ireland's games as warm-ups for Man.U (c) worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?

I suspect probably all three :confused:

I think you're right..
I adore Roy Keane cause I think he's very important for us, and for what we want to achieve. Despite this probable "new way of play" from him, although he couldn't be fit last wednesday, I think we have to consider him as a basic player in these qualif matches. I know that he probably put more power in ManUtd's matches, but if he's totally fit he can give us a lot of power in the irish matches too, despite in his worth table, there are manutd matches first, and irish matches too.
I think we have to be very happy about the feeling with him and Kerr. This is already a good start to settle down every problem which can go on in the future.

[1MickCollins]

Based on that article he may be "worming his way back into Ilreand fans good books?", I certainly don't think he is going to indermine Brian Kerr.

I am hoping that the Swiss game was a once off but I have a feeling it wasn't, it could have been a monkey on Kerr's back as the last game in Basel was Irelands worst for years and maybe he just focused too much on not losing. Anyhow with Roy Keane, Damien Duff and Robbie Keane all seriosuly lacking match practice it wasn't a bad return from the two games.

A few things worry me though; Kenny Cunnighamm reminded me a little of Mick McCarthy on the goal we conceded. He is great when the ball is played in from the opposition defense or midfield and he can read it and position himself, but when the ball is live in the last 3rd of the field he looks vulnerable. That failed lunge he made in the Cyprus game that then forced Given into a very good save was another example. We gifted Cyprus two great chances.

Kevin Kilbane has to be dropped now before he does us some serious harm, he can't pass, he can't tackle he just knocks people over and can't score. Yes he is honest in his effort and works hard but that is not enough. A fit Roy Keane and Matt Holland has to be the obvious partnership.

Now against the Swiss did Andy Reid have a bad game or was the problem more that he didn't get the ball? He put Robbie Keane through beautifully with a quick accurate pass, but really our midfield was so poor and Carr had such a poor game that we just didn't give him the ball. Against Cyprus he played really well and if it wasn't for his hunger it could have been a sticky result particularly if Cyrus has scored.

Hats off to Morrison, he has worked hard and deserved his goals. I think he has put in extra training on heading as this was a weak part of his game. I think Morrison and Keane are our best strikers but they do not have a "partnership".

It's pretty clear from all I have seen and heard that Brian Kerr is a conservative coach, my big disappoinment is that despite all these friendlies we have played it doesn't really look like it has had much purpose. This team has no playing shape, the passing in both games was clumsy and awkard and our pace was too slow. We need to pick up the pace and put some heart back into our game, go back to basics and clear your lines and stop fanning about with short passes in the box - I couldn't believe some of the crap our defenders pulled. And has putting pressure on the opposition completely gone out of fashion? The way we play now we have to score good goals as we no longer put pressure on teams forcing them into mistakes.

[Superhoops]

[QUOTE=1MickCollins]Based on that article he may be "worming his way back into Ireland fans good books?", I certainly don't think he is going to indermine Brian Kerr.

Wasnt suggesting RMK was trying to undermine Kerr. However, if we dont qualify for Germany, Kerr will have to go, particularly as he firmly nailed his colours to the RMK mast. By that time, RMK will be finished playing and where better for him to 'try out' the managerial game.

Keane needs a big game against France, regardless of the result, otherwise what has been the point in bringing him back and disrupting any settled structure to the midfield by accomodating him for the games (likely to be the important games) in which he either wants to play in or is fit to play in. :ball:

[Condex]

It's pretty clear from all I have seen and heard that Brian Kerr is a conservative coach, my big disappoinment is that despite all these friendlies we have played it doesn't really look like it has had much purpose. .

Agree with most of the things you say.
Watched the game from behind the goals at the Swiss end, it was a bloody poor match and I think the Swiss are poor side, not in the top 10 in Europe.

We never upped the pace in the game not sure what Kerrs game plan is/was
in the 3 big games we've played twice against the Swiss and against the Russians we're were bloody poor, can't blame McCarthy now.

Ireland can't play the long ball anymore no big man up front and Keane and Morrison do not have the pace to trouble defenders so its gotta be played into feet, this limits the ways we can play .

My thoughts on the players :

Given - Brilliant
Carr - Crap
Finnan - Best of the back four
O'Brien - OK
Cunninhgam - Yakin walked around him for the goal, not good one on one
Reid - Was he playing
Keane - Expect a lot more, got into the game more in the 2nd
Kilbane - Lacks technique at this level
Duff - Played OK, maybe Murinho has a point

Keane - A useless whinger who falls over a lot, one good game in 10
Morrison - Good goal, can't shield the ball though

[thejollyrodger]

I was posting on the other board as well. At the moment I just think that we just dont have the players and maybe were expecting far too much. Just look at the players. Duff, Given O' brien and Finnan were good, but everyone else was crap.

[brine3]

Keane needs a big game against France, regardless of the result, otherwise what has been the point in bringing him back and disrupting any settled structure to the midfield by accomodating him for the games

You make it sound like we have defensive midfielders coming out of our ears. If we didn't have him against Switzerland then we would have had no defensive midfielder in the squad.

I thought it was strange that Kerr said after the match the some players were venturing to far forward. That's one thing we didn't do enough.

[Superhoops]

You make it sound like we have defensive midfielders coming out of our ears. If we didn't have him against Switzerland then we would have had no defensive midfielder in the squad.

I thought it was strange that Kerr said after the match the some players were venturing to far forward. That's one thing we didn't do enough.

I watched the game in Basel from the Irish end (behind the goal in which we conceded) and saw Keane give the ball away twice, one of which was needed a superb Given save to prevent a goal, hardly the hallmark of a defensive midfield player.

I was not aware that Keane was reintroduced into the squad for his defensive qualities. Naively, I thought it was for his drive, his leadership and his ability to drive forward. I saw none of this in Basel.

[eirebhoy]

I was not aware that Keane was reintroduced into the squad for his defensive qualities. Naively, I thought it was for his drive, his leadership and his ability to drive forward. I saw none of this in Basel.
He was playing the holding role on Wedensday so wouldn't be getting forward much, if not at all. At Utd he is always partnered with a holding midfielder so gets forward a lot more.

[Superhoops]

He was playing the holding role on Wedensday so wouldn't be getting forward much, if not at all. At Utd he is always partnered with a holding midfielder so gets forward a lot more.

So what role will he play against France? :confused:

[eirebhoy]

So what role will he play against France? :confused:
He'll probably play the holding role again. You said he was brought in because of his "ability to drive forward" and I was explaining why you didn't see him to that.

[1MickCollins]

Given - Brilliant
Carr - Crap
Finnan - Best of the back four
O'Brien - OK
Cunninhgam - Yakin walked around him for the goal, not good one on one
Reid - Was he playing
Keane - Expect a lot more, got into the game more in the 2nd
Kilbane - Lacks technique at this level
Duff - Played OK, maybe Murinho has a point

Keane - A useless whinger who falls over a lot, one good game in 10
Morrison - Good goal, can't shield the ball though

I think that is spot on, but Duff and both Keanes and even Carr haven't played much yet this season.

The most comical moment of the game was when Robbie Keane was standing arguing with Reid as Clinton Morrison was scoring! Robbie Keane also had some bizzarre dummies against Cyprus, the last one with no Irish player within 20 yards! He will go on to score 40 goals for Ireland but you always fel he isn't making the most of the talent he has.

My problem with Duff is he rarely plays the early ball, he seems to feel he has to beat 3 players and then deliver a cross, he could learn a lot from Andy Reid who really has impressed me, I think Reid can become twice the player Duff is, he has vision and a football brain that Duff simply doesn't have.

[Superhoops]

He'll probably play the holding role again. You said he was brought in because of his "ability to drive forward" and I was explaining why you didn't see him to that.

and the same against the mighty Faroes?

[thejollyrodger]

I cant see him playing against the faros islands

[tricky_colour]

Probably not the right thread but......

Keane look pretty sharp for Man U against Bolton from what I saw
on MOTH, he was third choice for MOM on the Man U site.
Actually I just noticed he was voted MOM by season ticket holder
(only 6 votes cast 4 for Roy) :) I think I would have voted him MOM
on what I saw on TV.

Also nice to see Andy, O'Brian getting a goal (I think he also had an
own goal the last time he scored).

The Chelsea boss says Duff will start(play?) on Tuesday.

Andy Reid was the subject of much controversy when he 'bollocked'
Forest left-back Andy Rodgers, resulting in some fans booing him.
Big thread here if you have time to Reid :D it
http://forum.nffc.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60076

[Superhoops]

I cant see him playing against the faros islands

Agree. Despite Brian Kerr's assurance that Keane was coming back on Kerr's terms, Roy will pick the games he will play in.

[PaulB]

THE BRAT WAS PISH! Shape up or Ship out!
Arrogant & A Waste of space....Play or F*ck Up :mad:

Are you going to apply the same rules to Robbie Keane/damien Duff/Steve Carr etc.

[thejollyrodger]

Well Duff has obvious talent so it doesnt apply. Good to see he is starting in the line up for the european games.

Robbie isnt playing to his 100% potentia. Maybe the new spurs coach can sort him out. Carr has a severe attitute problem, kick him out

roy is only going to play 5 more games for ireland....

France - away and home if needs me
Swiss - home
Israel - away and home if needs me

So either we get to the world cup and everything is fine or we dont and its BYE BYE KEANO

Thats the second goal O' brien has scored, i think the other one was for a corner, he is nearly as good as robbie :rolleyes:

[Kingdom]

Probably not the right thread but......

Keane look pretty sharp for Man U against Bolton from what I saw
on MOTH, he was third choice for MOM on the Man U site.
Actually I just noticed he was voted MOM by season ticket holder
(only 6 votes cast 4 for Roy) :) I think I would have voted him MOM
on what I saw on TV.

Also nice to see Andy, O'Brian getting a goal (I think he also had an
own goal the last time he scored).

The Chelsea boss says Duff will start(play?) on Tuesday.

Andy Reid was the subject of much controversy when he 'bollocked'
Forest left-back Andy Rodgers, resulting in some fans booing him.
Big thread here if you have time to Reid :D it
http://forum.nffc.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60076

Christ that is some debate alright. Obviously the NFFC fans don't realise how lucky to still have Reidy. He was supposed to be allowed to leave during the Summer when he agreed to stay last Jan.

[razor]

THE BRAT WAS PISH! Shape up or Ship out!
Arrogant & A Waste of space....Play or F*ck Up :mad:

In that case ye seem to have quite a lot in common. :D

[Peadar]

I suspect probably all three. On Wednesday he looked uninterested, showed none of his leadership skills when we were under the cosh and looked like he was not fit


You clearly weren't at the game on Wednesday!
He was a colossus!
Made great tackles and great defensive headers when we were under pressure from set peices. You're a moron if you think we're not a better side with Roy Keane. What ever your personal opinion of him, as a footballer he is still the best player we have in that position.

[wallis]

What is with the panic of fans and the press at the moment ?

We go to switzerland and take a very good point. We are joint top of a very difficult group , unbeaten , played one of our tough matches already and go to Paris more confident than we could possibly have been in the last 6 months since the draw was made.

Suddenly there are murmerings that the French are there for the taking. Viera is out , Makelele retires , ZZ - gone . They cant beat the Israelis at home , the Faroes are giving them grief, Henry is tired and wants a rest !! Bring them on !!

But we have the press looking for 'hidden Keane agendas ' and fans looking for the worst in out performance. The point we got in Basle is seen as a disappointment and we werent attacking enough. The manager needs to be more positive etc etc - what garbage !

heres a reality check list for everyone , take it twice a day for the next four weeks until October 9th !

1. Keane was rubbish first half , but what do you expect ? he hasnt played for weeks and is against one of the better attacking midfielders in europe in Yakin. Who was partnering Keane in centre midfield - Kevin Kilbane !! Now come on , Im not going to open the KK debate again but a centre midfielder he is not- no wonder we looked all over the place for the first 45 minutes !

2. RK Agenda !! who cares ? The big test for us (and especially Keane) is in 4 weeks time. Whatever your opinion of RK and what he has done , we all know that what happens that night will go a long way to repairing the damage. This is his stage ! He has a chance to put in a vintage performance in the midfield. If he really wants his place in the Ireland side and is truely committed to taking us to Germany then we will know on October 9th.

3. Switzerland are a good side. !! Yes they are ! They won their qualifying group to the euros. They drew 0-0 with Croatia (only had 10 men) , outplayed england (until rooney came to life and once again Switzerland had 10 men after an hour) and were holding France at 1-1 until the 76th minutes (swiss caught out when they piled forward looking for the win). They beat the Faroes 6-0 , france scrape a 2-0 (and dont tell me 'home advantage' means anything to the faroes ) THEY ARE NO MUGS !

4. This is a tough group ! Its going to be close , every point counts. If we dont lose in Paris the group is in our hands - win every game and we top the group - its that simple and its not impossible !!!

5. We have players still to return like Matt Holland, Steven Reid etc. Our team can (and will get stronger). Lets not forget that our entire attacking force (duff , Keane ,Morrison) can barely count on one hand the number of games they have played this season. Duff , 8 months out and suddenly two games in 4 days ! How well did everyone honestly expect these three to play ?. But look out !!! Suddenly we may have something we have been looking for for ages - a partner for Keane up front ! Someone to take some of the scoring burden of Robbie - Clinton Morrison. How improved does he look this year ?? Never stopped running , two great headers and he worked his socks off.

6. Kerr - conservatism ?? what is that all about ? . If it was an Italian team going to one of the tough teams in their group and taking a point everyone would be harping on about ' another professional performance'. Dont forget how he got this job - because we were out of the Euro qualifiers after 3 matches last time !and our manager quit before he was pushed ! We went gung-ho in Russia and got walloped. We then went chasing the 3 points at home to the Swiss and they picked us off as well !! This guy knows what he is doing !!

Hold that head high fellow supporters - 'tis a good time to be an Ireland fan !! :cool:

[eirebhoy]

Lads, you are talking utter rubbish if you think Roy is going to skip the games against the minnows. He has turned up to all 3 friendlies against Poland (sent home by FAI medical staff), Romania and Bulgaria. He played almost every game in the WC2002 campaign, what makes you think he's going to skip them? He will play in every game unless he is sincerely injured.

[Plastic Paddy]

What is with the panic of fans and the press at the moment ?

Hold that head high fellow supporters - 'tis a good time to be an Ireland fan !! :cool:

That post is a breath of fresh - optimistic - air hereabouts. Well said on all counts. More of the same please. :)

:D PP

[tricky_colour]

Agree. Despite Brian Kerr's assurance that Keane was coming back on Kerr's terms, Roy will pick the games he will play in.


So you would have him injured in the Faros game and miss the French?

Great tactics Einstein.

[Peadar]

I was there.....he won One tackle,yeah great :rolleyes:

You might want to get a video of the game and watch it a bit more closely.
With your anti Keane bias you'd probably still fail to see anything positive.
When the chants "Keano, Keano" rang out it wasn't for Robbie, that's for sure!

[ken foree]

in one or two of the close-ups of keane last wednesday i thought he looked doped out of his mind. spaced and unfocused. is this what pain-killing injections do?? :confused:

[Superhoops]

So you would have him injured in the Faros game and miss the French?

Great tactics Einstein.

That would be a good trick! We play France before we play the Faroes!

Thick or what? :mad:

[Superhoops]

Lads, you are talking utter rubbish if you think Roy is going to skip the games against the minnows. He has turned up to all 3 friendlies against Poland (sent home by FAI medical staff), Romania and Bulgaria. He played almost every game in the WC2002 campaign, what makes you think he's going to skip them? He will play in every game unless he is sincerely injured.


He didnt turn up for Holland, a real game!

[Superhoops]

You clearly weren't at the game on Wednesday!
He was a colossus!
Made great tackles and great defensive headers when we were under pressure from set peices. You're a moron if you think we're not a better side with Roy Keane. What ever your personal opinion of him, as a footballer he is still the best player we have in that position.

You are either mad or blind!

I was at the game behind the goal in which we conceeded and for the first half he was ordinary at best. I have a poor opinion of him after Saipan, but now he is back I want to see him and the team play well. Unfortunately in Basle neither happened.

The only Corkman I have seen recently making great tackles and clearances when under pressure was Sean Og O'Halpin and he probably would have done a better job in Basle than the bold Roy :D !

[Donal81]

I thought that it was a poor performance but that a point away from a home against a tough (if you let them) European team is still an alright result. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a point gained over two lost but I don't think it's one we should dwell over for too long, considering the lack of matchfit players we had in key positions. What I would be concerned about is the manner in which we surrendered initiative. While the Swiss are certainly not minnows, I don't think they're a good team in the slightest but this is the third occasion on which we've allowed them to look good. This was demonstrated by the ease with which we cut through them on the odd occasion that more than two Irish players went forward at the same time. However, we'll do them at home, no doubt. F*ck it, take the point and move on while learning from it.

[eirebhoy]

He didnt turn up for Holland, a real game!
Eh, he played the 90 minutes in the two Holland games. :confused:

[Superhoops]

Eh, he played the 90 minutes in the two Holland games. :confused:

I was referring to the Holland game in June this year, a friendly which he 'skipped'. Don't remember hearing he was injured for that.

[1MickCollins]

I was referring to the Holland game in June this year, a friendly which he 'skipped'. Don't remember hearing he was injured for that.

Keane didn't have to play against the Swiss this time around as he had not played in the premership for Utd as he had damaged ribs, the fact that he made himself available for this away game should end this argument not feed it :D

[Metrostars]

I was referring to the Holland game in June this year, a friendly which he 'skipped'. Don't remember hearing he was injured for that.


Here we go again.

Why does every thread here always gets hijacked and becomes a ****ing match between the pro-keano and anti-keano factions?

[Peadar]

You are either mad or blind!

I'm neither, thankfully.
Perfect eyesight is one sense I'm blessed with.

Roy Keane was one of the best players on the pitch.
His positional sense is still brilliant, be it on our own six yard box or theirs.
Look at where he was when he got booked!
Too many people knock him for the sake of it.
As a team we didn't have a great game but I can assure you it would have been a lot worse had it not been for our Prodigal Son.
How about some of you start supporting Ireland for once?
We're not a bad team to follow.

[tonycuna]

He was playing the holding role on Wedensday so wouldn't be getting forward much, if not at all. At Utd he is always partnered with a holding midfielder so gets forward a lot more.

That's right. He was born as an attacking midfielder, when he played in Cobh or Nottingham F, for ex. So I think that Kerr can't force him in a total defensive play, cause it'll be a sure not good performance from him, and during the match he'll need more mins to go into the pace of it.
But I remain convinced that we have to consider him as an important treasure of our national team, and as one of the most talented players at the moment.
This is my opinion but I could go wrong, cause I'm from italy, and sadly I can't see the irish matches.

[Peadar]

now you might as well have Grumphy :eek: also out there ;)

I'm starting to think you're his love child!
You're bitter because he wont acknowledge you so you trying to get at him by attacking Roy Keane. Were you always a big grumpy moan or did you perfect it in London?
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:p :D

[brine3]

That's right. He was born as an attacking midfielder, when he played in Cobh or Nottingham F

But for the last 11 years or so he has been a defensive midfielder at Man Utd. Did you know that Edwin van der Sar was a striker when he was 17?

I'd be interested to know who Superhoops would have played in the number 6 position on Wednesday night, seeing as we were "accomodating" Keane against Switzerland.

[Peadar]

so unsurprisingly,he's not the player he was,FFS!

I don't think anyone, including Roy himself, would argue with that but we don't have a better player in the squad for that position. He's as important to Ireland now as he ever was. If some of the younger lads can learn a thing or two from playing alongside him then his return will have been more than worth it. The fact that Man Yoo have failed to replace him is testimony to his ability, even now. He's still better than Gerrard even with his reduced ability.

[Adrianovic]

Christ that is some debate alright. Obviously the NFFC fans don't realise how lucky to still have Reidy. He was supposed to be allowed to leave during the Summer when he agreed to stay last Jan.

Cannot agree with anything you've said there. I'm confident I'm right in saying you haven't seen Reid in a Forest shirt this year, he hasn't been the quality you see in an Irish shirt. Maybe the Forest fans are a little harsh, but he is not above criticism.

Reid was allowed to leave when we got a £5m bid, what we saw as reasonable as that's what we got from Spurs in January. Forest aren't going to just let him go on a free, and why should we?

Ade

[Superhoops]

I'd be interested to know who Superhoops would have played in the number 6 position on Wednesday night, seeing as we were "accomodating" Keane against Switzerland.[/QUOTE]

Davros, who was also at the game last Wednesday, has it right - Kavanagh's the man, has done nothing wrong when he has played. Not the greatest talent ever but at least you know what you are going to get, unlike with RMK. :p

[John83]

But for the last 11 years or so he has been a defensive midfielder at Man Utd. Did you know that Edwin van der Sar was a striker when he was 17?No, but I've heard O'Shea first signed terms for Man Utd as a right winger!

[thejollyrodger]

this thread isnt about roy keane FFS. Its about how ireland have gone to the dogs pish whether he is or isnt playing. I'm all for getting behind the team, but when they go out and play like that how could you appluade them??



Qualify 1990 WC
Qualify 1994 WC
Missed 1998 WC
Qualify 2002 WC
looks like going to miss 2006 :rolleyes:

[PaulB]

this thread isnt about roy keane FFS. Its about how ireland have gone to the dogs pish whether he is or isnt playing. I'm all for getting behind the team, but when they go out and play like that how could you appluade them??



Qualify 1990 WC
Qualify 1994 WC
Missed 1998 WC
Qualify 2002 WC
looks like going to miss 2006 :rolleyes:

Take a reality break FFS, we just got an away draw against one of the top 3 teams in the group, wasn't a great performance, but a points a point. How can you say we're going to miss 2006 after 2 games is beyond me. Just support the f***** team for FFS.

[thejollyrodger]

Im not going to start about the implications if Israel go to Switzerland and get a win or drawn or we dont get a point in Paris. Of course I support the team, but they need to come up with the good in paris ;)

[wallis]

Whats going on here ??

4 points from two games . One tough one down and one to go. Our opponents (France ) are the ones in disarray not us ! We were the side playing in Green the other night. You know , the ones who took the lead ? the ones with the dubious offsides ? point blank header ? the team who only allowed one long range shot all second half ?? Whats the problem ? Did we get beat by the Faroes on the weekend and I missed it ? ? ? ? ?

RoyK - if he is fit he plays - end of story. Attitude ? ability ? - its not up for question. If he wants it badly enough we will see it in October when he puts Pires 6 feet in the air after kick off . When he is yelling at the defence and getting our house in order .When we are lining up in Paris I dare anyone to look at the starting XI and turn to your fellow supporter in the seat next you (or failing that , grab the poor human being near you in the pub ) and say:

' do you know what , we would have a much better chance without Keane in the centre midfield marshalling the troops against Henry , Pires , (keep adding top class international names from the starting line up until they get your gist) - What we really need is (select one of the following)

"a good championship player with zero experience like Kavanagh "
"a man whose selection is always questionable but hell why not play him out of position as well, he'll be alright (KK- dont laugh , we just did exactly that in Basle - and we STILL didnt lose) "

If your fellow supporter hasnt already begun administering the neccessary slaps you deserve then count yourself lucky !

No criticism intended towards GK or KK but come on , wake up and smell the Java !

ITs Holland + Keane - more than a match for the French contingent !. The french will be praying Keane doesnt make it. Perhaps we should drop him , then if we win the toss we can race downfield and score while les bleus are still rolling around on the floor laughing !!

When Israel draw at Switzerland (and dont say it wont happen or you will upset all our French readers !) we could be starting to record those Sprachen Sie Deutsch ? learning programmes at 3am on BBC2 !

JollyRodger - 'looks like we are going to miss WC 2006' ?? What the eff ?'

Paul B you sound like the man who could help Wallis cure these sick people - Get them prepped for brain surgery ! I want 300cc's of optimism in every one of them STAT !!

[eirebhoy]

"a good championship player with zero experience like Kavanagh "...
ITs Holland + Keane - more than a match for the French contingent !
With an Ireland shirt on I don't think you could even class Holland as a good championship player. I actually don't think you could class him at all as you'd be doing well to find him.

It has to be Kav-Keane for me anyway.

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

With an Ireland shirt on I don't think you could even class Holland as a good championship player. I actually don't think you could class him at all as you'd be doing well to find him.

It has to be Kav-Keane for me anyway.

I agree with Wallis. Holland has to start alongside Keane. We need experience. Holland plays in the centre of midfield for a good Premiership club. That is too much to ignore. Keane and Holland have played together in the past and are more than a match for a new untested French midfield. We should play Finnan on the right side. He's playing there at the moment for Liverpool and doing well. He will give us defensive solidity required away from home and has a good understanding with Carr. Duffer to start on the left with Reid as an impact sub.

Team for Paris:
1 Given

2 Carr 4 O'Brien 5 Cunningham 3 O'Shea

7 Finnan 6 Keane 8 Holland 11 Duff

9 Morrison 10 Keane

The only inexperienced players in the team are O'Brien and O'Shea. Both have CL experience however.
Thnigs are not as bad as they seem. ;)