View Full Version : Legends - Irish Independent
gastric
03/12/2012, 5:53 AM
Series in the Indo. Should create good, robust debate on here!
http://supplements.independent.ie/?xml=Legends_football_magazineV3#folio=1
geysir
03/12/2012, 7:18 AM
Best photo,
nr 18 Noel Cantwell/Dalymount.
bwagner
03/12/2012, 7:23 AM
when is this in the paper?
OwlsFan
03/12/2012, 9:43 AM
Best photo,
nr 18 Noel Cantwell/Dalymount.
Nice photo ok with Dalymount packed to the rafters but my favourite would be No. 45 ;)
These things are always very subjective but there is a big Man U bias I think by whoever chose them. How could John O'Shea appear ahead of Richard Dunne? Frank Stapleton ahead of our all time goal scoring phenominon Robbie K. Ray Houghton is way too far down the list. Chris Morris ahead of Kevin Kilbane :O
I didn't read the small print and the choice may be made based upon what the players did not so much in the green jersey rather combined with their club careers.
Delighted to see Frank O'Neill there. The best LoI player I ever saw.
geysir
03/12/2012, 10:47 AM
Nice photo ok with Dalymount packed to the rafters but my favourite would be No. 45 ;)
What was that? the Bedford Panel Van trophy? :)
I see Ronnie Whelan was born in 196 according to that magazine. Looking well considering he's 1,816 years old.
Decent enough magazine anyway, if a little content light. It always surprises me by how relatively few caps many of our better players won (Giles, Whelan, Irwin and Finnan all under 60 caps). I'm finding it hard to think of anyone who has been left out. You could definitely question some of the inclusions as "legends", but I think you're always going to be stretching it a bit when you have to include 50 players.
AlaskaFox
03/12/2012, 12:03 PM
when is this in the paper?
Today's Indo.
IsMiseSean
03/12/2012, 1:05 PM
First thing I disagree with, O'Shea ahead of Dunne???
Is this based on a players Ireland career, club career or both?
Top 3, 6 in top 9, 16 in top 50 played in League of Ireland
OwlsFan
03/12/2012, 1:52 PM
What was that? the Bedford Panel Van trophy? :)
Used Skoda Rental Van Trophy
OwlsFan
03/12/2012, 1:59 PM
Top 3, 6 in top 9, 16 in top 50 played in League of Ireland
But Frank O'Neill is there based almost exclusively on his performance in the LOI. Good old "Twinkle Toes".
But Frank O'Neill is there based almost exclusively on his performance in the LOI. Good old "Twinkle Toes".
maybe so, but is his inclusion any more egregious than having John O'Shea #21?
Junior
03/12/2012, 3:09 PM
Whos the fella on the left, of what I am presuming is some kind of 'Irish' Gunners Photo shoot?
I cant make out the writing below the photo.
https://downloads.realviewdigital.com/Independent%20Newspapers/Legends%20football%20magazine/doleary4.jpg
Great photo!
paul_oshea
03/12/2012, 3:13 PM
There was a documentary or piece before on the 3 irish at arsenal, i have a feeling his name is john. I thought the piece was entitled the 3 daves or something and how he had become the forgotten one.
I think its john devine.
Stuttgart88
03/12/2012, 3:23 PM
I think the fella on the left is Johnny Murphy, who went on to play full back for the Ireland rugby team.
John Devine is involved in youth coaching in Ireland. Sunday Times ran a great interview with him recently and he seems a very clued in guy.
For the record Dan McDonnell tweeted that club form counted as much as Irish form in make up of the list
geysir
03/12/2012, 4:11 PM
Johnny Murphy is one of the sons in (Tom) Murphy & Sons, funeral directors in Bray. I was in that place once (alive).
They have a sense of humour in those parts.
http://www.rip.ie/admin/uploads/CrossThos%20Murphy900x180banner.jpg
OwlsFan
04/12/2012, 12:50 PM
maybe so, but is his inclusion any more egregious than having John O'Shea #21?
I don't think there is anything wrong with O'Neill's inclusion. He will always be a legend to me. As a child going to Milltown he was my greatest football hero, even ahead of John Sissons and Jack Whitham ;)
boovidge
04/12/2012, 2:15 PM
Is it worth me trying to find somewhere that sells the Independent then?
Whos the fella on the left, of what I am presuming is some kind of 'Irish' Gunners Photo shoot?
I cant make out the writing below the photo.
https://downloads.realviewdigital.com/Independent%20Newspapers/Legends%20football%20magazine/doleary4.jpg
Great photo!
John Murphy from Bray. The documentary was on RTE a couple of years back. It was very good. John went over to London and visited the family he stayed with in London. He met up with Brady at Highbury if i recall correctly. O'Leary and Stapleton were in it as well. I remember O'Leary said John left the digs and he never saw him again. Some say he was homesick but others say he was to big for his boots. Eitherway anyone i have talked to said he would have made it if had stuck it out. Would love to see the documentary again.
I don't think there is anything wrong with O'Neill's inclusion. He will always be a legend to me. As a child going to Milltown he was my greatest football hero, even ahead of John Sissons and Jack Whitham ;)
My dad tells me there is not a winger like him in todays game.
Given is ahead of Alan Kelly Snr. My dad couldn't believe it when he saw this. He said Given was not in Kelly's class. I noticed John Giles said the same recently. He said Ireland were blessed to have a keeper like Kelly. He said he had the remarkable ability to know when to come for a ball and when not to.
paul_oshea
04/12/2012, 2:35 PM
Is it worth me trying to find somewhere that sells the Independent then?
Its available as an online supplement. I'd much rather a proper magazine though.
paul_oshea
04/12/2012, 2:37 PM
John Murphy from Bray. The documentary was on RTE a couple of years back. It was very good. John went over to London and visited the family he stayed with in London. He met up with Brady at Highbury if i recall correctly. O'Leary and Stapleton were in it as well. I remember O'Leary said John left the digs and he never saw him again. Some say he was homesick but others say he was to big for his boots. Eitherway anyone i have talked to said he would have made it if had stuck it out. Would love to see the documentary again.
Was that on over christmas, that was the one i watched, well watched some of it but for some reason i didnt get to see all of it.
paul_oshea
04/12/2012, 2:40 PM
Given is ahead of Alan Kelly Snr. My dad couldn't believe it when he saw this. He said Given was not in Kelly's class. I noticed John Giles said the same recently. He said Ireland were blessed to have a keeper like Kelly. He said he had the remarkable ability to know when to come for a ball and when not to.
Hardly a remarkable ability. If you are good in the air, you should know when to come for the ball, once you can judge the speed of the ball. A keeper has no excuse really, take rugby or gaelic football a good fielder will drive through whoever is in his way, in soccer if even a player gets in your way its usually a free out. NO excuse for dropping a ball. A high ball should be bread and butter for a keeper, its surprising how few haven't got this as the very basics.
Hardly a remarkable ability. If you are good in the air, you should know when to come for the ball, once you can judge the speed of the ball.
A pity there's not keepers around who have that ability so!
Was that on over christmas, that was the one i watched, well watched some of it but for some reason i didnt get to see all of it.
Not sure but i found this on it. I didn't think it was on as far back as 2000.
A BRAY man who turned his back on international fame and prestige at Arsenal FC during the club's early seventies glory days, forms the subject of a f...A BRAY man who turned his back on international fame and prestige at Arsenal FC during the club's early seventies glory days, forms the subject of a fascinating documentary to be screened by RT? One next month. 'Who's That Standing Beside John Murphy?' is a one-hour documentary which investigates what happened to the eponymous North Wicklow man while his peers, Liam Brady, Frank Stapleton and David O'Leary went on to become international soccer heroes. Part of RT?'s 'True Lives' series, the documentary traces the careers and fortunes of the four gifted men who signed with Arsenal when they were just teenagers in the early 1970s, with a particular focus on what became of John Murphy. The impetus for the programme was an old photograph taken of the North Wicklow man with his three more famous Arsenal counterparts. In 1971, Arsenal had proclaimed itself the 'glamour' team in England, by winning the League Championship and FA Cup double, and the then manager Bertie Mee introduced a brand new youth policy which resulted in the signing of the four Irish prodigies and other future stars. Brightest One of the club's brightest young strikers who signed along with David O'Leary in 1973, John Murphy turned his back on the Gunners, returning home to Wicklow after six months, homesick and disillusioned. He never played professional or club football again, retiring from the game at the age of 18, returning to school and rugby (his first love), at Presentation College, Bray. He later played for Greystones Rugby Club and in the early 1980s was selected for the Irish international senior team, including the Triple Crown-winning lineup in 1982. Now living in Greystones with his wife and two sons, John balances running a successful family business and coaching the senior Greystones rugby team. The documentary Ð shot on digicam and widescreen, and conceived and directed by award-winning producer Billy McGrath for Tyrone Productions Ð features exclusive interviews with Liam, Frank, David and John as they recount their early days at Highbury Stadium. And John Murphy is filmed returning to North London for the first time in almost 30 years, revisiting his and David O'Leary's old landlady Pam Louis. He recalls his time as a young apprentice and explains just what made him turn his back on a potentially successful career in the top flight of soccer. 'Who's That Standing Beside John Murphy?' airs on RT? One on Tuesday October 10 from 10-11pm.
So you disagree with the Indo. No reall need to campaign for Kelly.
paul_oshea
04/12/2012, 3:08 PM
Not sure but i found this on it. I didn't think it was on as far back as 2000.
A BRAY man who turned his back on international fame and prestige at Arsenal FC during the club's early seventies glory days, forms the subject of a f...A BRAY man who turned his back on international fame and prestige at Arsenal FC during the club's early seventies glory days, forms the subject of a fascinating documentary to be screened by RT? One next month. 'Who's That Standing Beside John Murphy?' is a one-hour documentary which investigates what happened to the eponymous North Wicklow man while his peers, Liam Brady, Frank Stapleton and David O'Leary went on to become international soccer heroes. Part of RT?'s 'True Lives' series, the documentary traces the careers and fortunes of the four gifted men who signed with Arsenal when they were just teenagers in the early 1970s, with a particular focus on what became of John Murphy. The impetus for the programme was an old photograph taken of the North Wicklow man with his three more famous Arsenal counterparts. In 1971, Arsenal had proclaimed itself the 'glamour' team in England, by winning the League Championship and FA Cup double, and the then manager Bertie Mee introduced a brand new youth policy which resulted in the signing of the four Irish prodigies and other future stars. Brightest One of the club's brightest young strikers who signed along with David O'Leary in 1973, John Murphy turned his back on the Gunners, returning home to Wicklow after six months, homesick and disillusioned. He never played professional or club football again, retiring from the game at the age of 18, returning to school and rugby (his first love), at Presentation College, Bray. He later played for Greystones Rugby Club and in the early 1980s was selected for the Irish international senior team, including the Triple Crown-winning lineup in 1982. Now living in Greystones with his wife and two sons, John balances running a successful family business and coaching the senior Greystones rugby team. The documentary Ð shot on digicam and widescreen, and conceived and directed by award-winning producer Billy McGrath for Tyrone Productions Ð features exclusive interviews with Liam, Frank, David and John as they recount their early days at Highbury Stadium. And John Murphy is filmed returning to North London for the first time in almost 30 years, revisiting his and David O'Leary's old landlady Pam Louis. He recalls his time as a young apprentice and explains just what made him turn his back on a potentially successful career in the top flight of soccer. 'Who's That Standing Beside John Murphy?' airs on RT? One on Tuesday October 10 from 10-11pm.
Ok so what did he say for himself why he turned his back?
So you disagree with the Indo. No reall need to campaign for Kelly.
Who's campaigning?
Ok so what did he say for himself why he turned his back?
THREE of Ireland's greatest ever football heroes have spoken of their misery when they first joined Arsenal Football Club.
Liam Brady, Frank StapletonFrank Anthony Stapleton (born July 10, 1956 in Dublin) is a former Irish football player. He is best remembered for his time at Arsenal, Manchester United and as a pivotal player for the Republic of Ireland. He has also been a manager at Bradford City.
Leeds manager and former Gunners legend O'Leary admitted he bawled his eyes out every time he left his parents in Ireland to travel back to London when he was 15 and 16.
"I was so homesick I would cry all the way back from Dublin," he said.
"I would arrive at Heathrow crying and I would cry all the way home on the tube and I would cry at home.
"I would miss my mum and dad greatly, and my brother and sister.
"It is a completely different feeling when you go somewhere knowing it is for good.
"It is all very well signing for a big club, but I never realised what it was like having to leave home."
Ex-Arsenal and Juventas star Liam Brady was so homesick he refused to return to London after spending one Christmas in Ireland In Irish Gaelic Nollaig Shona Dhuit means Merry Christmas.[1] Events
In Ireland Christmas is very religious and it lasts from December 24 to January 6, 13 days.[2] They also put out red candles decorated with holly to guide Mary and Joesph. .
"I said 'It's not for me.' I wanted to say at home," he said.
It took more than two weeks before he would change his mind.
Things were often as emotional for the players' families back in Dublin.
Brady's mum Eileen said: "When he first went off to England we were all crying at the airport thinking we would never see him again."
And Stapleton's mother Christine said: "I used to say to him that I had the fare home and I would sent it to him if he wanted to come here. It was not easy for them with the homesickness.
"I always told him he did not have to go back if he didn't want to."
But for one young player the homesickness was too much, and he quit the chance of a glittering career with Arsenal after just six months.
John Murphy joined the Gunners at the same time as David O'Leary and could possibly have gone on to match the achievement of his fellow Irishmen.
But while his pals became legends for both Arsenal and the Republic of Ireland, John Ireland, John, English composer
Ireland, John, 1879–1962, English composer. Inspired by visits to the Channel Islands, he wrote music of a simple, rugged beauty. returned to the family's bus and undertakers businesses in Co Wicklow.
He never played professional soccer again, went on to play rugby, his childhood game, and enjoyed a successful career with Greystones and the Irish team.
And he is joined by his former Arsenal colleagues, Stapleton, Brady and O'Leary, who recall those tough days.
Stapleton recalls: "John was more homesick than anyone I had ever seen.
"He came from a big family and his sisters and brothers used to come over. You would speak to him after and he would say he wanted to go home."
Brady said: "We were all homesick but he suffered more than the rest of us."
Murphy recalls how, when he was just 15, he was sharing a room with O'Leary in London.
"The two of us often cried each other to sleep," he says. "We would go to bed and talk about home."
The end came for Murphy as Christmas of 1973 approached.
"I was looking forward to a break because I had been going through a bad patch of homesickness," he said.
After a row with a trainer he announced he was leaving.
"My dad just said: 'If you want to come home, no problem. I told you before you left this was your home and you can come back when you want.'"
Within two years his pals were all in the first team, but Murphy has no regrets.
"Maybe it was the easy way out, but I certainly learnt that it was not for me. Not every dream comes true.
"I feel I was lucky to get where I did. "If I had been a bit older I would probably have stayed, but whether I was good enough would be another thing."
geysir
04/12/2012, 3:52 PM
In the first media clip on Giles' page, he hits the post and Alfie Hale strokes it in, was Alfie offside?
gastric
05/12/2012, 7:34 AM
Some comments from the Indo regarding O'Shea's position in the Top 50.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/dissenting-voices-shout-loudest-over-osheas-standing-in-irish-top-50-3316448.html
geysir
05/12/2012, 8:07 AM
I don't take such 'best evers' seriously, they are interesting and evocative.
Essentially, such top player ever polls, are bogus and expose a basic flaw in democracy.
How many who voted, actually witnessed all the candidates since 1960?
How can anyone who hasn't seen Hurley, Giles or Brady perform, players who played their football when many (if they were even alive then) were in short pants and before the age of football televised mass exposure, decide that McGrath or Keane were the best?
Or even decide that Given was better than Alan Kelly?
Or decide on the basis of a 30 second grainy b&w clip, that Giles was not our best ever?
I don't take such 'best evers' seriously, they are interesting and evocative.
Essentially, such top player ever polls, are bogus and expose a basic flaw in democracy.
How many who voted, actually witnessed all the candidates since 1960?
How can anyone who hasn't seen Hurley, Giles or Brady perform, players who played their football when many (if they were even alive then) were in short pants and before the age of football televised mass exposure, decide that McGrath or Keane were the best?
Or even decide that Given was better than Alan Kelly?
Or decide on the basis of a 30 second grainy b&w clip, that Giles was not our best ever?
I don't think anyone is deciding that any player was better than another player. They are just giving an opinion.
geysir
05/12/2012, 10:16 AM
We are presented with a list of 1-50.
There is a ranking procedure. Those who participated are giving opinions on which players are higher ranked. I guess that involves some decision making, guesswork and uninformed speculation about the merits of past players.
All normal enough I suppose, that's why I don't take it seriously.
Dodge
05/12/2012, 10:35 AM
We are presented with a list of 1-50.
There is a ranking procedure. Those who participated are giving opinions on which players are higher ranked. I guess that involves some decision making, guesswork and uninformed speculation about the merits of past players.
All normal enough I suppose, that's why I don't take it seriously.
All that, plus its designed to drive sales of newspapers/webpage hits etc etc so there's a built in need to provoke.
I enjoy lists like this, even with the "I can't belive they..." backlash
Charlie Darwin
05/12/2012, 1:00 PM
I cant believe anybody would seriously think Richard Dunne is a better footballer than John O'Shea. I suppose it's good these things provoke debate though.
Supreme feet
05/12/2012, 1:23 PM
I cant believe anybody would seriously think Richard Dunne is a better footballer than John O'Shea. I suppose it's good these things provoke debate though.
That's a fair point in terms of pure technique - I don't think Dunne could have scored that chip against Arsenal - but at the most fundamental level, they're both defenders, and Dunne is far, far, far better at defending than O'Shea.
O'Shea may have been more mobile and versatile at his best, particularly that first season at left-back for Man Utd, but he's been middling-to-awful for Ireland. Aside from Montenegro away.
Charlie Darwin
05/12/2012, 1:49 PM
I'd say they're both fairly average defenders at this point, both having suffered from injuries. At his peak, O'Shea was a far better defender, albeit playing from full back. He never really did it consistently for the national the national team but then again, unlike Dunne, he wasn't used to playing with mediocre players week in week out.
DeLorean
05/12/2012, 2:04 PM
That's a fair point in terms of pure technique - I don't think Dunne could have scored that chip against Arsenal
Judging by his celebrating, I don't think O'Shea believed he could have scored it either!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seejAiq6V7A
geysir
05/12/2012, 3:15 PM
Already mentioned is the deserved measure that Frank O'Neill was held in, by the (Shamrock Rovers dominated) selection panel, with his inclusion into the list of legends.
My vote would have gone to Al Finucane, who has more than a strong case to be regarded as thee nr.1 LOI legend. He was a supremely gifted defender, graced with elegant footballing abilities.
But an automatic top 50 spot should have been held for Joe Haverty
I have no connection with Al's clubs (Limerick and Waterford), so no need to reply to this if you are only going to promote the merits of some 'legend' from your own LOI club :)
Charlie Darwin
05/12/2012, 3:39 PM
Shamrock Rovers-dominated? I know Ward played for Rovers but McDonnell is a gypo and the other two are EPL fans.
McDonnell is a Dundalk fan
geysir
05/12/2012, 3:48 PM
Seriously??
Charlie Darwin
05/12/2012, 3:50 PM
McDonnell is a Dundalk fan
Ah, you're right actually, but I seem to remember he goes to Bohs games.
Seriously??
If that's directed at me, then yes, McDonnell is from Dundalk, and is a Dundalk fan
geysir
05/12/2012, 4:25 PM
Nah, I wasn't being serious when I put into brackets (shamrock rovers dominated).
Charlie Darwin
05/12/2012, 5:01 PM
You mischievous Icelander.
geysir
05/12/2012, 5:11 PM
You Shamrock Rovers' fans are just too soft a target.
I'll give Dodge a pass because he replied to your post.
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