Homophobia in Football

[culloty82]

As one of the comments in the article states, the real breakthrough will be the day when a gay footballer would be as unremarkable as a black player, but Manchester United's Anders Lindegaard (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/nov/27/anders-lindegaard-game-needs-gay-hero?INTCMP=SRCH) has arguably become the most prominent player to discuss the issue. Presumably he has the full backing of both Ferguson and United for his comments, which would lessen the taboo in the global game.

[DannyInvincible]

Matt Jarvis poses for the front cover of Britain's best-selling gay magazine: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/west-ham-star-matt-jarvis-shows-he-has-the-right-attitude-by-appearing-on-gay-magazine-8437874.html


The West Ham and England footballer Matt Jarvis has posed for the cover of Britain's best-selling gay magazine in an attempt to crush one of the game's last remaining stigmas.

The married winger is only the third footballer to appear on the cover of Attitude in its 19-year history. David Beckham, who appeared in 2002, and Freddie Ljungberg who followed four years later, led the way.

Jarvis, 26, told Attitude that homosexuality was now "everyday life" and not "something that's going to be a shock". He added: "I'm sure there are many footballers who are gay, but when they decide to actually come out and say it, it is a different story. It's one that I'm sure they've thought about many times. But it's a hard thing for them to do," he said.

That view is vindicated by a recent study by the University of Staffordshire, that suggested the majority of fans would welcome players coming out, with 40 per cent of fans blaming clubs and agents for keeping gay footballers in the closet.

Jarvis said that times have changed and it is more likely that an openly gay footballer would receive the support he needed now. "There'd be support everywhere within the football community, whether it be players, fans or within the PFA [Professional Footballers' Association]. There would definitely be groups of people who would be supportive and help them through it," he said.

Previous case histories tell a different story. In 1990 Justin Fashanu – the first black £1m footballer, who played for Norwich, Nottingham Forest and Hearts – suffered extended abuse after coming out. He killed himself eight years later. The prejudices he faced were cited at the inquest into his death. The most high-profile footballer to come out since then is Anton Hysen a player in the Swedish lower leagues.

In the interview Jarvis agreed that not coming out could hamper performance in a sport that has traditionally considered homosexuality as a forbidden frontier. He said: "You've always got something you're worried about at the back of your mind. If you can let that go and then just concentrate on your one goal, which is whichever sport you're doing to the best of your ability, I think that would help. Definitely."

It is part of a wider attempt to tackle prejudice to homosexuality in football. Last month the Spanish midfielder Suso, who plays for Liverpool, was fined £10,000 for calling his team-mate José Enrique "gay" on Twitter and warned about his future conduct by the Football Association.

Previously, former Sheffield Wednesday captain Darren Purse said he would have to think hard before advising a young player to come out; Bayern Munich's German striker Mario Gomez made headlines when he did the opposite, urging gay players to break this last "taboo".

[Spudulika]

Big "scandal" here as 2 prominent players (Kokorin and Mamev) were pictured in Miami in various poses that meeja have jumped on to say are "gay". Oddly, the most vociferous of the meeja have been scandal sheets and gay outlets who are slamming "homophobic russians" before any comment has even been issued from the players, fans or clubs. If anyone has seen them, the two lads look like they're acting the maggot and if they were photos from Temple Bar or a rugby club tour, you'd think nothing of it. While meeja sources are taking the chance to kick out at "russians", I wonder how it would go over in the UK, Ireland, USA etc.

[DannyInvincible]

'Former Leeds winger Rogers comes out but announces his retirement aged just 25': http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2279324/Robbie-Rogers-Leeds-comes-gay-retires-aged-25.html


Former Leeds United winger Robbie Rogers has written a blog in which he comes out as openly gay and retires from the game.

The 25-year-old, who was released by Leeds in the summer and joined Stevenage on loan, becomes the first professional footballer in Britain to come out since Justin Fashanu in 1990.

He also played for America 18 times, including all three of their games at the Beijing Olympics in 2008.

[Spudulika]

Apparently the head of the PFA spoke with 8 gay players but they didn't want to come out. Personally speaking, it's not right that the head of the PFA would say such a thing, it leads to speculation and just does a Stephen McGuinness. While the vast majority of people will just not give a damn, a few eejits and the pack mentality would make it a horrible place for a gay footballer - especially on the net.

[gormacha]

I admire Rogers for coming out. However, it's a sign of football's deep problems in this area that he could only do so as he retires. Aged 25. It was not a good news story. In fact, quite the contrary.

How sad is it that the GAA appears to actually be ahead of football on this issue.

[geysir]

It's not that difficult for any sport to appear to be more progressive than the neanderthal portion who pollute soccer :p
However, only one player at GAA county level, Dónal Óg Cusack, has 'come out', he also just happened to be an articulate man and was already a well respected player.
Cork people knew about him anyway and afaia he didn't get any grief over it at Cork club games. There was one mass semi-brawl before a county game, some Clare players decided on a tactical wind up and called him a 'faggot'. The Cork players didn't let that pass. Another time in Semple Stadium, some idiot with megaphone behind the goals, gave him stick all through the game and no one was 'man enough' to shut him up.

There's a gay gaa club called the Dublin Devils (http://www.dublindevilsfc.com).

[DannyInvincible]

I admire Rogers for coming out. However, it's a sign of football's deep problems in this area that he could only do so as he retires. Aged 25. It was not a good news story. In fact, quite the contrary.

How sad is it that the GAA appears to actually be ahead of football on this issue.

I agree that Rogers feeling comfortable to "come out" only after an early retirement is a poor reflection of the homophobia that blights football rather than something to celebrate, but what exactly has the GAA done to combat homophobia?

[gormacha]

It's not that the GAA have done anything positive as an organisation, but that there have been developments within GAA culture that have outstripped anything in football. As geysir points out, there is a gay GAA club. I'm not aware of a football equivalent in Ireland.

And let's not underestimate Donal Óg coming out. Established player he may have been, but he felt safe enough to come out whilst still playing at the highest level. I thought he would get slaughtered, but I think I was projecting what would have happened if it had been done in the sporting culture I knew better - football. Only one player he may be, but its one more than in football.

[DannyInvincible]

Geysir was unusually misinformed. The Dublin Devils aren't a GAA club. They're a football club.

[geysir]

I was just checking if you were on the ball. :D
(somehow I had the mistaken impression that gay team were a gaa gay team)

I would also endorse Gormacha's comment, that despite some homophobia experienced by Cusack outside of Cork county, before he publicly came out, the positive reaction afterwards was encouraging and he was in the worst position on the field (goalkeeper) to receive abuse.
I doubt if the GAA are doing anything more than the other major sports to counteract homophobia, but in a GAA environment, a profile player did 'come out' and it was overwhelmingly positive. I don't know what value or what precedent it sets for other players in a similar predicament. Cusack's predicament was that he was being singled out by a few homophobes, in some games outside Cork.

I don't see why players should have to 'come out', I'd prefer if everybody else just didn't give a damn.

[gormacha]

Ah, mea culpa re the Devils. It undermines my argument significantly, goddamit. I hate when the facts get in the way of my thesis. :)

I would still contend that had a similarly high profile player come out in football, they would have a much harder time of it than Donal Óg did. Not long ago on this forum I got shouted down for pointing out that it was unacceptable that a female physio had some really nasty sexual comments made at her. I was told her feminity was her defining characteristic and that was why she got those comments*, in the same way someone who was overweight would get called a fat b'stard. I suspect the same argument would be made about someone gay.

I agree with you geysir about the need to come out at all. The fact that "coming out" is a central part of our cultural lexicon shows how dysfunctional many still hold homosexuality to be.




*And how revealing this was about how some men orient themselves to women.

[DannyInvincible]

I would still contend that had a similarly high profile player come out in football, they would have a much harder time of it than Donal Óg did. Not long ago on this forum I got shouted down for pointing out that it was unacceptable that a female physio had some really nasty sexual comments made at her. I was told her feminity was her defining characteristic and that was why she got those comments*, in the same way someone who was overweight would get called a fat b'stard. I suspect the same argument would be made about someone gay.

Was that a popular sentiment on this forum when that discussion arose?


I agree with you geysir about the need to come out at all. The fact that "coming out" is a central part of our cultural lexicon shows how dysfunctional many still hold homosexuality to be.

The whole concept of "coming out", along with the pressure/expectation/fanfare that surrounds or would surround such an "event" in football, is a bit ridiculous alright and it's a shame that such significance need be attached to it, primarily as a result of football being the last bastion of homophobia; as if some admission (of deviation from what is perceived to be "right" or "normal") needs to be made after a life of deception or as if it is necessary to classify one's sexuality in line with the existing popular social definitions anyway. I always found Gore Vidal's thoughts on the latter matter both enlightening and constructive.

[gormacha]

Was that a popular sentiment on this forum when that discussion arose?


Of those that replied to the thread, only one other person argued similarly to me - that the abuse was unacceptable. One poster adopted a neutral stance, and all others more or less took the opinion that if she was involved in football then she was fair game, and her defining quality is what would define the type of abuse she would get.

The conversation was started by someone making an observation about a female referee. This got conflated with the discussion about the female physio. Several argued that she was getting abuse because of "her [refereeing] decisions", but this, as I pointed out, wasn't the case with the physio who was getting abuse about being a woman. In amongst thousands of men.

Also, I agree fully with your parting comments. I haven't read Vidal on this, but I agree with the argument.

[DannyInvincible]

Of those that replied to the thread, only one other person argued similarly to me - that the abuse was unacceptable. One poster adopted a neutral stance, and all others more or less took the opinion that if she was involved in football then she was fair game, and her defining quality is what would define the type of abuse she would get.

It's only a "defining" quality, amongst a multitude of other shared qualities, insofar as someone with a prejudice seeks to see and impose it as such.


Also, I agree fully with your parting comments. I haven't read Vidal on this, but I agree with the argument.

Some passages/statements by Vidal on the subject:


"There is no such thing as a homosexual or a heterosexual person. There are only homo -- or heterosexual acts. Most people are a mixture of impulses if not practices."

"Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than there is such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing sexual acts, not people. The sexual acts are entirely normal; if they were not, no one would perform them."

"We are all bisexual to begin with. That is a fact of our condition. And we are all responsive to sexual stimuli from our own as well as from the opposite sex. Certain societies at certain times, usually in the interest of maintaining the baby supply, have discouraged homosexuality. Other societies, particularly militaristic ones, have exalted it. But regardless of tribal taboos, homosexuality is a constant fact of the human condition and it is not a sickness, not a sin, not a crime ... despite the best efforts of our puritan tribe to make it all three. Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. Notice I use the word 'natural,' not normal."

"The reason no one has yet been able to come up with a good word to describe the homosexualist (sometimes known as gay, fag, queer, etc.) is because he does not exist. The human race is divided into male and female. Many human beings enjoy sexual relations with their own sex, many don't; many respond to both. This plurality is the fact of our nature and not worth fretting about."

[Bottle of Tonic]

I'm glad I support a football club (Celtic) where I'm pretty certain any homophobic comments amongst the crowd, 'loose banter' or otherwise would result in a swift challenge from those in the vicinity. Maybe not the aulder generation but young lads certainly.

On Donal Og Cusack, I don't think his 'contribution' (totally for want of a better phrase but you know what I mean) should be underplayed. I'm not saying his coming out has resulted in scores of young lads across rural Ireland being comfortable with their sexuality in a sporting environment but i'm fairly sure it was heavily referenced when that Welsh rugby fella came out as well? And it does break down that first huge barrier within the GAA - one of the most well known players of the last 10 years and all - not a Swedish 4th Div player which is pathetically all that soccer can offer. Which in a round about way leads me back to my original point. Homophobic language at Celtic games is non-existent. I presume the same could not be said of many clubs across Britain and Ireland?

[BonnieShels]

I'm glad I support a football club (Celtic) where I'm pretty certain any homophobic comments amongst the crowd, 'loose banter' or otherwise would result in a swift challenge from those in the vicinity. Maybe not the aulder generation but young lads certainly.

On Donal Og Cusack, I don't think his 'contribution' (totally for want of a better phrase but you know what I mean) should be underplayed. I'm not saying his coming out has resulted in scores of young lads across rural Ireland being comfortable with their sexuality in a sporting environment but i'm fairly sure it was heavily referenced when that Welsh rugby fella came out as well? And it does break down that first huge barrier within the GAA - one of the most well known players of the last 10 years and all - not a Swedish 4th Div player which is pathetically all that soccer can offer. Which in a round about way leads me back to my original point. Homophobic language at Celtic games is non-existent. I presume the same could not be said of many clubs across Britain and Ireland?

I don't know how you could say it's non-existent. I've never heard it at Tolka. But I would never say it was non-existent.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm afraid the non-existence of identifiable openly gay players on the field towards whom homophobic abuse could be directed might have something to do with this alleged non-existence of homophobic language in the stands. Would it really remain so generally "non-existent" if an active player were to "come out" and thus present himself as a recognisable target? The taboo or stigma associated with homosexuality in football, and it cannot be denied, is the very reason gay footballers, and they do exist, are so afraid of being open about their sexuality.

I've witnessed what I would classify as homophobic abuse being directed from the stands at Killian Brennan, for example, due to the way he styled his hair or something daft like that. Actually, it didn't merely come from the stands; it came from his own "supporters"...

[Bottle of Tonic]

:eek:

Alright dude. As you can see am an infrequent poster here and forget that any misplaced or slightly over-zealous syllable on foot is seized upon!!

General point is the same - Shels wee crowd or not - I imagine it is still fairly common to hear casual homophobic language in football crowds. Probably rampant at certain clubs in England but maybe I am being prejudiced there. Maybe you don't hear it too often around the grounds, but what is the likelihood of someone challenging it if aired? Culture of silence? But football has been making inroads I feel these last couple of years. Hopefully see some positive change soon. But hopefully nothing like the racism/handshake furore of last season in England which was just such a hachet job IMO.

[Bottle of Tonic]

I'm afraid the non-existence of identifiable openly gay players on the field towards whom homophobic abuse could be directed might have something to do with this alleged non-existence of homophobic language in the stands. Would it really remain so generally "non-existent" if an active player were to "come out" and thus present himself as a recognisable target? The taboo or stigma associated with homosexuality in football, and it cannot be denied, is the very reason gay footballers, and they do exist, are so afraid of being open about their sexuality.

I've witnessed what I would classify as homophobic abuse being directed from the stands at Killian Brennan, for example, due to the way he styled his hair or something daft like that. Actually, it didn't merely come from the stands; it came from his own "supporters"...

Initial post replying to Bonnie, btw.

And as I suggested above, if there happened to be an 'out' SPL player playing at CP and he was on the receiving end of homophobic abuse from Celtic supporters I've no doubt he'd be hauled out of his seat by one of his own. Speculation, of course, I accept that.

[SkStu]

Initial post replying to Bonnie, btw.

And as I suggested above, if there happened to be an 'out' SPL player playing at CP and he was on the receiving end of homophobic abuse from Celtic supporters I've no doubt he'd be hauled out of his seat by one of his own. Speculation, of course, I accept that.

That's a pretty outrageous piece of speculation BoT! Is it just a hunch?

It depends on individuals to do the right thing surely and not the Celtic fans as a collective or any other collective really (except the LGBT groups presumably!)

[osarusan]

Initial post replying to Bonnie, btw.

And as I suggested above, if there happened to be an 'out' SPL player playing at CP and he was on the receiving end of homophobic abuse from Celtic supporters I've no doubt he'd be hauled out of his seat by one of his own. Speculation, of course, I accept that.
How about if it was a Rangers player?

[DannyInvincible]

How about if it was a Rangers player?

He was referring to SPL players. :p

[DannyInvincible]

Initial post replying to Bonnie, btw.

And as I suggested above, if there happened to be an 'out' SPL player playing at CP and he was on the receiving end of homophobic abuse from Celtic supporters I've no doubt he'd be hauled out of his seat by one of his own. Speculation, of course, I accept that.

Well, which is it? :)

I didn't mean to target Celtic specifically. I was referring to the general stigma that pervades football. As well-behaved as Celtic's fanbase might be - although some would dispute that - it would be naive to think that the fanbase, or at least elements within it, would be immune to harbouring homophobic sentiment. Have you ever witnessed anyone being hauled out of their seat before for any perceived transgression of supporter etiquette, not necessarily of a homophobic nature?

[BonnieShels]

:eek:

Alright dude. As you can see am an infrequent poster here and forget that any misplaced or slightly over-zealous syllable on foot is seized upon!!

General point is the same - Shels wee crowd or not - I imagine it is still fairly common to hear casual homophobic language in football crowds. Probably rampant at certain clubs in England but maybe I am being prejudiced there. Maybe you don't hear it too often around the grounds, but what is the likelihood of someone challenging it if aired? Culture of silence? But football has been making inroads I feel these last couple of years. Hopefully see some positive change soon. But hopefully nothing like the racism/handshake furore of last season in England which was just such a hachet job IMO.

Now now. Us foot.iers pride ourselves on discussion. :)

The more likely scenario is that you'll hear a player being called a "faggot". I've yet to hear anyone shout that from the stands at any of the games I've ever been at.

B****x and c**t are the only ones that get a regular airing from the crowd and from me.

I don't think I would challenge anyone at a football ground for the use of homophobic language. Self-preservation is a skill I hold dear. And should someone be heading down that road I can't imagine a righteous admonishment is exactly what they'd want to hear.

[DannyInvincible]

Homophobia isn't something heterosexuals will witness or experience every day. Why would it be? There's little reason why heterosexuals, or apparent heterosexuals, would be subjected to it, unless they exhibit campness or "gay traits"; then, they're "fair game". Homophobia is still rife throughout society, although tolerance is undeniably more widespread than in the past, so it would be rather fanciful to claim that it is non-existent in football, a known haven for such sentiment.

Only yesterday, I witnessed two male students crossing Oxford Road here in Manchester (a supposed diverse and cosmopolitan city with its own gay village) holding hands. A passing veiled woman crossing in the opposite direction actually stopped in the middle of the road to subject them to verbal abuse and ridicule.

I see this in the local student newspaper then today: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/19/manchester-university-student-killing-homosexuals-recording_n_2716427.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular


A student paper is at the centre of a row over ethical standards after publishing a secret recording of what appears to be homophobic comments made by a student society member.

The Mancunion student newspaper has been criticised by both Manchester University's Student Union (MUSU) and the chair of the global aspirations of women's society, whose meeting was 'covertly' filmed.

The student paper published extracts from a recording made by first year student Colin Cortbus, who attended the society's public meeting on Wednesday.

The Middle Eastern studies undergraduate asked a member of the society whether, “in the Islamic society in which you strive for,” they would “feel comfortable, personally and morally, to kill a gay man".

According to the Mancunion, a female student replied: "Absolutely," and described homosexuality as an "atrocity, because it goes against what God says".

I've also seen belligerent homophobia in action at home. The Bound for Boston pub in Derry's Waterloo Street, often viewed as being frequented by more open-minded or alternative types (or so I thought), although not a defined/advertised gay bar or anything, had just cleared out after closing time one night a few years ago and, as usual for a busy weekend night, the revellers congregated on the street outside engaging in drunken chat and banter amongst themselves before heading for taxis home. After a while, roars and shouts of disgust erupted as it became apparent to all that two young males who'd been in the bar were leaning against a parked car kissing one another in full view of the gazing crowd; the horror! Not only was nasty verbal abuse directed at them, but even glass bottles were fired in their direction. Luckily, none made a connection. However, people seemed more shocked by the kiss they had just witnessed than the response of some outraged neanderthals in the crowd. I thought that was quite telling.

Just because homophobes aren't walking the streets with picket signs warning society that "God hates fags!" doesn't mean such hatred is non-existent. Homophobia is a mentality and it will manifest itself when an opportunity arises. If personal experiences of football kid us into thinking that homophobia isn't a problem in the game, it's probably down to the fact that direct or concerted homophobia hasn't really been afforded such an opportunity in the absence of a constant or recognisable target in football.

[DannyInvincible]

Came across this story earlier: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4806804/Former-mayor-of-Barnet-Brian-Coleman-I-had-sex-with-Arsenal-striker.html


King of Bling councillor: ‘I had sex with an Arsenal striker’

A COUNCILLOR who was once the highest-paid in the UK has made the startling claim — that he slept with an Arsenal footballer.

Brian Coleman, who calls himself the 'King of Bling', made the bizarre revelation about his sex life in a blog post.

The openly gay councillor refused to give any hint as to the player’s identity from the Premiership team, other than saying he was a striker.

Mr Coleman, 51, used to be the mayor of Barnet in North London and now serves as an independent on the Council.

His unusual claim last week appeared in a unrelated posting on Barnet FC's plans to move stadiums.

He wrote: “For someone who has little interest in Football, although I did attend Barnet v Port Vale at Underhill a couple of years ago, and once slept with an Arsenal striker, I am not fussed if Barnet survive in the Football League or bothered where they play.”

It is unclear when the alleged incident took place or who the footballer was.

He may not have named the player, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of clamour and speculation as to who the player concerned is. I find myself agreeing with the sentiment of this comment that followed the story:


How classless. My sexuality is in no way any secret but I would never do or say anything that might lead to someone being outed when they clearly wouldn't want to be. He should be ashamed of himself!

[BonnieShels]

Well at least it's not a former central defender or left-back... that would have been a shock to my core.

[Charlie Darwin]

Or indeed a former winger. I wonder how he knows nothing about football but knows this guy is a striker.

[DannyInvincible]

It remains to be seen whether the player concerned will be "outed", but I do find the councillor's claim about a private experience he shared with another individual a rather cheap and crass exercise in self-publicisation.

I guess the saying "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas" has never been more apt.

[gormacha]

Or indeed a former winger. I wonder how he knows nothing about football but knows this guy is a striker.

That begs a number of tasteless jokes which clearly I'm above.

[DannyInvincible]

Who's thinking of Bendtner?

*Gets coat and leaves thread in shame...*

[peadar1987]

Who's thinking of Bendtner?

*Gets coat and leaves thread in shame...*

If it's Henry and he comes out, I'm going to have a very hard time reconciling the fact that he'll have made a huge step forward for homosexuals everywhere, and the fact that he still is, and always will be, un putain de tricheur!

[SkStu]

If it's Henry and he comes out, I'm going to have a very hard time reconciling the fact that he'll have made a huge step forward for homosexuals everywhere, and the fact that he still is, and always will be, un putain de tricheur!

balls to hand or hand to balls?

[geysir]

That begs a number of tasteless jokes which clearly I'm above.

Well, I'd say it's tasteless homophobic 'humour'. Apparently it doesn't take much to inspire that sort of thing or for that matter it doesn't take much for a thread on homophobia in football to degenerate to this schoolboy level.

[DannyInvincible]

It would bother me if you thought I was being anything other than tongue-in-cheek with my remark, as I hold your opinions in high regard on this forum. To clarify, there's tasteless homophobic "humour" (homophobia) and there's "tasteless homophobic" humour (irony/satire), which highlights, or at least aspires to highlight, the idle inanity of such so-called humour and the silliness of homophobia itself (not to trivialise it either). I'd like to think my comment, if you were including it as fundamental to the "degeneration", could be interpreted as being of the latter form. I've made my serious position on the matter very clear and could talk plenty more on it. It's possible to miss the point through over-sensitivity. In my humble opinion. :)

[osarusan]

I wonder did the councillor play deep in the hole behind the striker, or did he prefer to spray balls around the place.

Which humour is that, Danny?

[geysir]

It would bother me if you thought I was being anything other than tongue-in-cheek with my remark, as I hold your opinions in high regard on this forum. To clarify, there's tasteless homophobic "humour" (homophobia) and there's "tasteless homophobic" humour (irony/satire), which highlights, or at least aspires to highlight, the idle inanity of such so-called humour and the silliness of homophobia itself (not to trivialise it either). I'd like to think my comment, if you were including it as fundamental to the "degeneration", could be interpreted as being of the latter form. I've made my serious position on the matter very clear and could talk plenty more on it. It's possible to miss the point through over-sensitivity. In my humble opinion. :)

You mean that you were delving into a subtle brand of satire that actually mocks the attitudes of people who would makes silly attempts at gay sex humour/identity speculation. And you would like that on record? Yes Danny, I can differentiate between good satire comedy, one that provokes people to laugh at the stupidity of their own prejudices and other humour which is just sexist etc.
I read the article you posted and shared the same opinion as you about the councillor ("cheap and crass exercise in self-publicisation").

[DannyInvincible]

I wonder did the councillor play deep in the hole behind the striker, or did he prefer to spray balls around the place.

Which humour is that, Danny?

I won't take you literally, so I'd interpret it as being a mixture of mocking satire and playing devil's advocate.

Chris Morris is one of my favourite comedians/satirists, but if his words/creations are to be taken literally, he might as well be a reactionary lunatic. I won't claim my comment was the most cutting of attempts at satire - it was a one-liner on a football forum - but I'd be disquieted if it was perceived as an expression of degenerate homophobia.

What of Oliver Callan's humour?: http://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/im-not-homophobic-im-a-homosexual-reveals-comic-oliver-callan-26787300.html


Comedian Oliver Callan sensationally defended himself against accusations of homophobia last night by revealing that in fact he is gay himself.

The Monaghan comedian and mimic, star of the hugely successful satirical show Green Tea, went on RTE's Saturday Night Show last night to set a few things straight about the ongoing controversy over his feud with Kerry GAA star and fashion guru Paul Galvin.

The pair hit the headlines 10 days ago when Galvin and Callan were involved in an altercation in the Dublin pub Kehoe's.

In his first ever interview as himself, Callan said on The Saturday Night Show that he had been bemused by some people implying that his caricaturing of Galvin and others, including David Norris and Louis Walsh, meant that he was some kind of hate-filled homophobe.

So he decided it was time to come out about one aspect of his private life and tell people that he is gay.

Callan said he didn't think his sexual orientation was a big deal and didn't really think people should have to "come out" in this day and age.

He joked that he knew he was gay from an early age because, growing up in Monaghan, he was late learning to drive a tractor.

GAA star Galvin's unhappiness with Callan was originally thought to be connected with sketches on Callan's hugely popular RTE radio show Green Tea regarding Galvin's alleged relationship with TV star Grainne Seoige.

However, the Sunday Independent revealed that Galvin had in fact taken offence before the summer to Callan making a camp joke about Galvin on The Saturday Night Show.

In March, playing David Norris, Oliver joked that Galvin was Norris's stylist and that the reason Galvin was such a fashion expert was because of all Galvin's years spent in the closet.

Galvin apparently contacted a staff member on The Saturday Night Show at the time to say that having to sit on the couch with his parents, watching Oliver's routine made for the most excruciating night of his life.

The hugely successful Callan, who came to fame with his Nob Nation sketches on the late Gerry Ryan's show, has also been criticised in the past for his camp portrayal of David Norris.

He also revealed last night that David Norris had told him he loved his impression.

Louis Walsh is also a big fan of his portrayal. Callan's answer to the odd critic who called him homophobic is quite simple: He's not homophobic. He's gay.

Callan revealed that the first person he came out to was his best friend and the producer of Green Tea, who is, he said, a roaring heterosexual. While the producer was initially concerned about losing his wing man, Callan said that in fact, a gay guy is a great wing man for a straight guy.

To be honest, Galvin's inability to laugh it off and, instead, getting so defensive in reaction to an obvious gag would strike me as being indicative of a "more homophobic" attitude than Callan's comedy if there was a scale for measuring such sentiment.

[SkStu]

I think the point here is that gay people have a sense of humour too and unless the attempt at humour is execptionally distasteful or offensive then it shouldn't be taken all too seriously. There are victims to every joke and there are plenty of offensive jokes out there. I have a number of gay friends and acquaintances, two of whom I consider amongst my best friends, and I know that they would laugh at or off the jokes on here and most gay jokes in fact. The interesting part in this particular side debate is the assumption that all gay jokes are homophobic and, I presume, the resulting implication that gay people won't find gay jokes in anyway funny.

[geysir]

I won't take you literally, so I'd interpret it as being a mixture of mocking satire and playing devil's advocate.

Chris Morris is one of my favourite comedians/satirists, but if his words/creations are to be taken literally, he might as well be a reactionary lunatic. I won't claim my comment was the most cutting of attempts at satire - it was a one-liner on a football forum - but I'd be disquieted if it was perceived as an expression of degenerate homophobia.
There's a context for humour, any humour, even the blackest of black humour.
Is there a context for what passes for typical so called gay humour/innuendoes/double meaning, in a thread which is discussing homophobia in football? There probably can be, but I don't see any example of it in this thread, just typical adolescent, embarrassing, out of context attempts at humour.

The thread moves from some interesting discussion of homophobia in football, to 'why are you not laughing at this great sexist type humour?'
Maybe when we are discussing racism in football, we can have a few racist type jokes in there to break up the monotony of discussion, jokes that some of my African friends would find funny.

[DannyInvincible]

There's a context for humour, any humour, even the blackest of black humour.
Is there a context for what passes for typical so called gay humour/innuendoes/double meaning, in a thread which is discussing homophobia in football? There probably can be, but I don't see any example of it in this thread, just typical adolescent, embarrassing, out of context attempts at humour.

It was an impromptu remark made awarely in the context of gormacha's comment, "That begs a number of tasteless jokes which clearly I'm above."

[osarusan]

I'd say he was referring to my crass and vile post.

[DannyInvincible]

"FA provides clubs with 'toolkit' to tackle homophobia": http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21578347


The Football Association has stepped up efforts to fight homophobia in football by providing clubs with a toolkit.

The resource has been sent to the 92 clubs of the Premier League and Football League and other teams as part of the Football v Homophobia campaign.

The 43-page document carries advice on how to create good relations with the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community.

West Ham have supported the campaign ahead of the match against Tottenham.

The players wore Football v Homophobia T-shirts in the lead-up to Monday's encounter at Upton Park.

Hammers captain Kevin Nolan said: "It's important that we, as a club and as a squad, support the Football v Homophobia campaign.

"We're role models and we've got to ensure that we respect all members of society and show that we're open minded.

"If someone told me, or any of the lads, that they were gay, it wouldn't change our view of them one iota and that's the only way it can be, so it's a vital message to push."

Here's the toolkit: http://www.thefa.com/~/media/Files/TheFAPortal/governance-docs/equality/football-v-homophobia/football-v-homophobia-toolkit---professional-clubs.ashx

[SkStu]

did they have to call it a toolkit? ;)

(sorry Geysir)

[Spudulika]

How do you change society? As much as we'd like to think (believe, fool ourselves) that racism has gone away from England, or Ireland, what goes on in private still exists and the public retribution from peers keeps a lid on things. Swear words with their base in sexuality are commonplace, same with being settled or non-settled Irish (or settled with a family history of being non-settled but own the t-shirt). So why would someone who is homosexual want to take the chance of hearing the nonsense from the crowd. Peer pressure keeps a lid on racism, I'm 100% sure of it, someone makes a monkey chant in Oriel at a black player and he'd get a slap, bojjocked out of it and made leave (by choice or without). It would need the same reaction, with police enforcement of "hate speech" laws to make it more comfortable for someone with a different lifestyle choice. When I'm sitting amongst the "real fans" at Luzhniki and they start making monkey noises and using colour-specific swear words at an opponent (completely blind to the fact that they've a trio of coloured players in their own starting 11) and it begins with a couple of idiots and grows to a few hundred, accompanied with self-satisfied sniggers (I'm aware of the possible pun and it's unintentional). Peer pressure will keep a lid on it, no public campaigns or other money wasting exercises.

[gormacha]

Well, I'd say it's tasteless homophobic 'humour'. Apparently it doesn't take much to inspire that sort of thing or for that matter it doesn't take much for a thread on homophobia in football to degenerate to this schoolboy level.

I think you're quite right, and I shouldn't have triggered the thread taking that direction, even though my comment was largely harmless, but I do accept it opened the door.

[gormacha]

How do you change society?

Well, that's a huge question, on which there is a voluminous literature. But one aspect of such change is that we start to make certain public actions and utterances unacceptable.

That can be done with public campaigns. In fact, I'm not sure there has ever been a successful change in public mores without such campaigns, whether organised by institutional forces in civil society; governments; or social movements. The Justin Campaign http://www.thejustincampaign.com/ in the UK does fantastic work iin this area, and it needs to become as routine as the "Kick Racism Out Of Football" campaign was.

Of course, all campaigns have their shortcomings. Many black players bemoan the fact that the Kick Racism campaign has become a cosy way of clubs and fans paying lip service to anti-racism whilst really doing very little. However, the fact that that campaign has its shortcomings shouldn't preclude us from trying other campaigns and making a better job of it. In the case of Kick Racism Out, whilst the situation is still shocking, to suggest it has had no impact is, in my view, a fallacy, but then again, I'm not black.

It may be difficult, or indeed impossible, to stand up as an individual at a match and call someone out on the basis of a homophobic comment (for one, I'd be worried about getting a kicking), but where we can challenge, we should challenge. Whilst a very modest, indeed perhaps almost insignificant, contribution, discussions like this one are helpful (and which is also why I regret my off the cuff remark earlier in the thread).

You can also take your point of view into arenas where it is much more likely to be heard and, crucially, where it is very difficult for others to challenge you because people know its the right thing to do. For example, I coach an u14 team. Their language can be rather choice, to say the least, at the best of times. I have drummed into them for years that they can swear as much as they want, but they can't swear at anyone, nor can they use descriptions of character or physical appearance to abuse anyone. I come down hard on any breach of this. Calling someone "gay" as a term of abuse is just one of the things I simply don't allow. I also don't allow it to be used as a term to describe something useless, which seems to be a bit of a thing these days ("that's gay"). And, as a coach, I have the power to do this. It might not make all that much difference in the grand scheme of things, but it is something.

[DannyInvincible]

I think you're quite right, and I shouldn't have triggered the thread taking that direction, even though my comment was largely harmless, but I do accept it opened the door.

Not at all. Don't hold yourself responsible for the posts of others, including my own. I thought there was context for an "immature" gag that in no way reflected any actual sentiment I hold and made it; I'm entirely responsible for what I post whether you contributed to the context or not. Not everyone found it and the path the thread subsequently took amusing; so be it. That's the nature of (attempting) parody/satire/humour.


You can also take your point of view into arenas where it is much more likely to be heard and, crucially, where it is very difficult for others to challenge you because people know its the right thing to do. For example, I coach an u14 team. Their language can be rather choice, to say the least, at the best of times. I have drummed into them for years that they can swear as much as they want, but they can't swear at anyone, nor can they use descriptions of character or physical appearance to abuse anyone. I come down hard on any breach of this. Calling someone "gay" as a term of abuse is just one of the things I simply don't allow. I also don't allow it to be used as a term to describe something useless, which seems to be a bit of a thing these days ("that's gay"). And, as a coach, I have the power to do this. It might not make all that much difference in the grand scheme of things, but it is something.

As Simon Amstell (openly gay and of Jewish descent) once said of Katy Perry's hit single 'Ur So Gay', "if you think that's homophobic, you should just Jew off and stop being so bloody black about it!"

[geysir]

For sure Danny, there's a humourless pc element on Foot.ie ready to jump on your back, needing the least provocation, damn them! :)

Morgan Freeman, on the topic said
http://inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/morgan-freeman.jpg?w=300&h=149

I'd regard 'homophobia' as an umbrella term and not just a phobia, as such.
Institutionalised prejudice towards gays is on the wane, one indication is that one country after another, legalising or about to legalise same sex marriages. There would be some people who have no overt prejudice towards gays but still might wonder what difference does it make if it's a legal civil union or a legal civil marriage, why make the bother?

In football you can say that for the most part, a black player can play without having to disguise his skin colour, in order to avoid abuse. The same can not be said for gay footballers, mostly based on speculation and assumptions because there are so few examples to go on.
Homophobia is beginning to be tail ended to campaigns to kick out the remnants of racism left (or bubbling under) in football.
It's a start to equate both together as in 'give racism and homophobia the red card'.