N. Ireland Support last night

[the 12 th man]

I absolutely agree. One cuts one's cloth to suit one's means.

Me? I still love watching football, and these days go whenever I can afford to. At the moment though, I've plenty of things better deserving of my limited time and money than physically attending every time my club or country play. And besides, I've served my time. If that makes me a barstooler in the eyes of "real" fans, then so be it. Whatever. All it actually means is that, for whatever reason, I have to prioritise other things ahead of football.

But those are my choices. Consequently, I'll not be judgemental about those who can and do choose to attend every game, nor the quality of the support that they provide, just as I'd ask them not to be judgemental about me.

:) PP


pp.its called growing up/maturing(turning into an ould fella ;) ,
there comes a time in your life and its just a phase(speaking from my experience) where you have, to whether you like it or not ,take a bit of a break from going to as many matches as you would like........12 th man waits for comments such as i d'ont give a boll0x i still go to every match.

it just depends on your own situation vis a vis family ,work ,money ,etc.

i'm lucky in that my own personal situation is sorting itself out i.e my kids are big enough to allow me a bit of time to go/bring them to matches. :)

[Duncan Gardner]

And whatever about the other lads on here, I'm actually a member at Cardiff and whether you like it or not, I know what I'm talking about

Eveing all, especially KO'H. Were you in Cardiff, K? If so, sorry I missed you. If not, you know less about the incident discussed than Lux or I. However, I have covered it with my brother. He was much further away from it than me (ie, about 500m rather than 100m), but is inter alia a current member at Cardiff City. Like Lux and I, he doesn't recognise your version of events. Incidentally, if you're going to claim local cachet, why not exaggerate it? You say you're professor of hoolie studies at Valleycommando University, no-one will be arsed to check :)

Davros. I'll phone you mid-am tomorrow re refereeing.

[Lux Interior]

:D :D :D :D

Anyone that claims to be Soul Crew ain't.

And whatever about the other lads on here, I'm actually a member at Cardiff and whether you like it or not, I know what I'm talking about.

BTW the future is an independent Wales and a United Ireland within Europe.
Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your narrow world view.

See you in Belfast for the return game. We'll have the Crown festooned with St. David's flags and tricolours. ;)

KOH

Sorry, o'numbnuts, but you weren't actually in Cardiff, were you? I was there and spoke to a few lads who were a lot closer - I can assure you - than you, or your "valley mates" (rrrrright?) were, so I DO "know what Im talking about", ok, chucks?

"Narrow world view" ......... Jeezsus, have I just travelled back in time to deepest Munster 1922, where Im surrounded by narrow-minded f.uckmooks?

PS: a word of advice - don't turn up at Whinger Park with yer Ivory Coast favours, ok?

[Lux Interior]

So the Planters' have re-invented themselves,huh :rolleyes: ......so you'll welcome the local Indigeneous population wearing Cliftonville & Donegal/Lurgan/Glasgow Celtic tops to games of a 'country' which has never been/will be officially recognised by the U.N....... :p How do you explain the high no.of T*n shirts in the osc,your fans are always moaning about,on OWB?

Stick to living in the archaic theme park.....most nationalists will rightly never support the osc......before you say this is ' sectarian',for what it's worth I'm a lapsed Prod.....wonder why :rolleyes: & I'll always despise its worse excesses!If you're so unbothered by the nationalist constituency,why not ' roll over' & give a united Ireland to the native populace!

Ch***t, but you are one boring, broken long-playing record. Look, Dev, it's like this .... whether "most nationalists" never support the "OSC" is of no concern to me and I think you'll find I, like nearly 1m others, ARE "native populace", who choose to remain outside a jurisdiction which is foreign [to us] ... if these facts stick in your craw ..... well, Im not going to lose any sleep over that.

The "native populace" ..... Cleary on a bike ... but what decade are you living in? :rolleyes:

Like I said, your petty border complex meant sweet FA to me, or 5000 others just t'other night.

One island, two teams, two separate aspirations .... is it really that hard to grasp?

[Lux Interior]

Dev, one final word (before I slope off to misty-eyed REM) .... my mate - a rabid Kafflick - was beside me in Cardiff on Weds night. He's Irish (like me) and he was as proud as punch that his country had pulled a unlikely result out of the fire. Im pretty sure another beer and he would've been singing 'da Sash' (Mass at the weekend would have been fun, eh?).

I guess he would despair at some of the whiny feckular nonsense from yourself :)

[Lux Interior]

Guys, sorry for the politicised posts. I enjoy coming on to 'foot.ie' and enjoy - mostly - the commentaries of all you footy-minded lads (cheers PP).

However, Im staunch Glens and NI and will defend - however tenuously to youse'uns - my right to follow club and country.

To KOH .... lol, you buckweed ... come an' huv a pint up da north, when the 'Soul Crew' roll into sleepy Belfast town (heh mucker, Ive got about 15 numbers) and then you can discuss your ludicrous claims face2face, eh?

Dev, you're NOT invited :D

[Plastic Paddy]

PP,You're just ano.part-timer ;) ............ :rolleyes: the rest of us are 'sad' b*stards,with too much time on our hands :eek:

It's called being shackled to a heavy mortgage, Dav. Being a propertied man of W12 don't come cheap any more... :(

;) PP

[liam88]

Hope I'm not growing up to fast-in respect to it was last year when I realised there were more important things than football ;)
Still-looking foward to the days when I can go to all the games etc. :D

[liam88]

Looks like we need to chuck some icy water on this one lads ;)
I do agree with PP on judging people on who they are not what they are-and we all know deep down you do to Dav; ya mate's with Bill because he's a great bloke!
Fao. PP ma brother was a wee put out for you telling him off when he said Tiocfaidh Ar La to ya as ya were leaving for Shepards Bush and the second part of the drenk ;)
He says fair play to Dav though who returned the cry :D

[Lux Interior]

Good for him :rolleyes: ......he wants to take his head out of the sand,or someone's ar*se...... :eek: How can he recognise a ' country' that has never existed? :confused:

There's a DeLorean with a 'flux capacitor' waiting for you outside, Dev. :rolleyes:

I quoted this post to him [my mate] .... and he just laughed his rosary beads of at your ****tery.

:)

[Plastic Paddy]

Fao. PP ma brother was a wee put out for you telling him off when he said Tiocfaidh Ar La to ya as ya were leaving for Shepards Bush and the second part of the drenk ;)
He says fair play to Dav though who returned the cry :D

Well Liam, I'd do it again, and if it ever comes up in conversation with your brother, I'll happily explain why. Whilst plenty of us hereabouts wish to see a reunited Ireland, it's just not going to happen when empty rhetoric rather than debate is the order of the day. Whilst it makes themselves feel good, the likes of Dav and your brother giving it the whole Chucky thing does nothing to advance the republican case and thus the likelihood of us ever seeing a 32-county state. And frankly obnoxious and offensive posts like the one earlier in this thread by WeAreConfused set the cause back rather than do anything to help matters.

Face facts here. How do you expect us to make the case for reunification to northern unionists when what they see and hear is a load of bombast and ersatz triumphalism instead? It ain't gonna happen, and it's no wonder Lux and his ilk take offence/switch off when it's all they hear from us. A little growing up is needed here. And that means cutting the crap.

Anyway, rant over. Back to talking football.

:ball: PP

[Duncan Gardner]

Well said PP :)

I am looking forward to the next international week- we're taking 70 on a package tour to Baku, so the noise level might be a wee bit less?

If the tiptoe up the FIFA ranking/ group table, I think we need England and Poland to take the points against Wales. Your game in Paris should be interesting- which TV channels are showing it?

[lopez]

Face facts here. How do you expect us to make the case for reunification to northern unionists when what they see and hear is a load of bombast and ersatz triumphalism instead? It ain't gonna happen, and it's no wonder Lux and his ilk take offence/switch off when it's all they hear from us.Sorry, amigo, but Northern nationalists walked around for fifty years with 'welcome home' on their foreheads and it did f*ck all use.

If anyone is going to judge a nation on the antics of two or three sh*te stirrers, then they can take offence and switch off to their hearts content. Unilke other footie websites I can mention, at least we don't all club together do give someone a cyber stomping and when that fails, go running to Marty to get the person banned.

Personally, reading some of Lux's ramblings suggests he too has escaped the nut-house into the back of Dr. Emmett Brown's de Lorean, this time when the Doc passed through Portadown in 1641. Listening to his own picture of 'dine sithe', I was expecting my recent visit to Dublin to be something akin's to Bill Rammell's current junket to the People's Paradise of Korea. Better not mention the number of unionists that have emmigrated to the Republic (not including the ones that take advantage of its universties) nor the fact that they can vote in all elections and still retain British citizenship (as the Irish can in Britain), nor that British Unionism in the Republic is effectively dead despite having more British citizens living there now than in 1922.

The case of not being able to wear a Glens shirt in Dublin is a clear indicator of his world -view, and possibly his sanity. And the chopping and changing of his 'nationality', whenever it is needed to score a point, is another.

[Duncan Gardner]

A little harsh there, Senor. I'm sure PP was just calming the situation. That fake tache and Scouse accent go well on him :)

No-one judges the Republic of Ireland- or even foot.ie as a whole- from the ramblings of two or three ****-stirrers. But other readers might reasonably expect the ****-stirring to be deleted or eidted out when it's too personal or goes over the top. Quite often it ain't.

Anyway, if ye're going to Paris, bon voyage

<lunch>

[lopez]

A little harsh there, Senor. I'm sure PP was just calming the situation. That fake tache and Scouse accent go well on him Okay. A bit too much keyboard therapy here from me. Apologies. :( However, while your good self has always sought to argue credibly - despite the obvious fat-tist interventions from the Hood, whom I have personally had words with, but whom argues that you two have a kind of Statler and Waldorf style 'love-hate' relationship - Lux comes up with the narrow minded fantasy and morphisation that WAR and Davros - and perhaps myself if I was honest - thrive on.

[Plastic Paddy]

Sorry, amigo, but Northern nationalists walked around for fifty years with 'welcome home' on their foreheads and it did f*ck all use.

Indeed Señor, but there's also a case for saying "that was then, this is now". I'm not for a minute saying that we shouldn't forget our history, for to do so would be folly, but that by the same token we shouldn't let it blind us to the future; something we Irish of all persuasions are all too capable of doing. In any case, the political stakes are simply too high to allow anything like a return to the situation you allude to. Watch for Bliar and Bortie's pronouncements from Leeds Castle this coming Thursday to that end.


The case of not being able to wear a Glens shirt in Dublin is a clear indicator of his world -view, and possibly his sanity. And the chopping and changing of his 'nationality', whenever it is needed to score a point, is another.

Personally, I hope if Lux ever does wear his Glens shirt in Dublin, he's good enough to come on here and tell us how pleasantly surprised he is a) to be still alive and b) completely ignored by all but those who wanted to know whose kit he's sporting. And as for your second point here, the man clearly feels Irish and British. No problem there and no dichotomy either. I just wish that more of his "community" could come out and say that they're Irish as well as British too. Then we could all get down (uh-huh!) to the slow business of building a shared identity and future together.


Lux comes up with the narrow minded fantasy and morphisation that WAR and Davros - and perhaps myself if I was honest - thrive on.

It's all to easy to be reactionary, but as my mother would say (albeit in a heavy Sligo accent), "don't sink to their level". We can all be each other's demons here if we work hard enough, but it's a much more pleasant place when we don't go trying.

:) PP

PS Dav - if you're reading this - I do still love you, you know. It's just that I know that you're better than some of the drivel that you write here in your "weaker" moments. My advice is not to post after midnight, when it's a fair cert that you're at least three sheets to the wind... ;)

[gspain]

Personally, I hope if Lux ever does wear his Glens shirt in Dublin, he's good enough to come on here and tell us how pleasantly surprised he is a) to be still alive and b) completely ignored by all but those who wanted to know whose kit he's sporting. And as for your second point here, the man clearly feels Irish and British. No problem there and no dichotomy either. I just wish that more of his "community" could come out and say that they're Irish as well as British too. Then we could all get down (uh-huh!) to the slow business of building a shared identity and future together.



;)

While I agree there would be no problem wearing a Glens shirt in Dublin - it would be for the following reasons

1) Nobody would know what it was.

2) Even if some did - an RTE news report from May 1983 showed the Irish Cup final with red/white/blue Bluemen fighting green shirted Glenman. Many people here still assume the Blues v Glens rivalry is along sectarian lines.

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?

I actually think it would make a good story. Walk down Grafton street, go to a shopping centre and attend an EL game in a Rangers shirt and interview some people who react.

[nlgbbbblth]

. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?



could have been people on their holidays

I know a girl from Kerry who has a Rangers top though - now lives in Dublin.

[lopez]

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore.On my recent visit to Dub-yang, I didn't see any of the shirts you mentioned, although I think if Lux had said he couldn't wear his Gers shirt I'd have more sympathy. But what about Eng-er-land? Bit more of a dodgy shirt than Govan's finest given the events of February 1995 and who do I see walking into my hotel but a mister and missus with the three moggys shirt. Perhaps wearing these garments in enemy territory is a risk worth taking in case anyone mistook them for foreigners, but looking at the absence of bruises and spit, a peaceful evening was had nevertheless.

Anyway, I saw a Crues shirt in Killarney and I too was trying discreetly to get near it to see what it was.

PP: Agree with everything about the little buddha. His stirring hardly helps things and you're right, he's better than the cr*p he sometimes writes. Unfortunately, I don't know what the good people of Enniskillen done to him, because the O6C certainly sends him loco. As for the national question, yes the right to dual-citizenship - or even just British - within Ireland is something I agree with, along with autonomy for the 6C (or 4C, or 3C) within the Irish state. Nearly a million Irish have managed to live in Britain without giving up all of their nationality, or trying to annex part of the country. However Lux changes his nationality at a whim to suit his arguments instead of being honest about what his true allegiance is. Which is to me, being a part of a planter community - not unlike the pied noir of Algeria - that owes its existence solely to the threat of force against the democratic wishes of the Irish population that Lux claims to be part of. His latest statement about 'Ivory Coast flags' to add to Irish being a dead language and Mary McAleese being a 'Brit' is indicative of someone whose Irishness - like my 'Britishness' - is purely a matter of where they were born and not who they are. If this statement offends him, tough.

As for NI fans, saw them at their game with Spain last year, and I wanted to film them to show the suits, etc. how to behave at a football game. Unlike my previous visits, they've dispensed with that song about Aughrim and the Boyne.

[lopez]

...Suffice to say in these dark old days,the 'democracy' DG & LI subcribe to was hardly rampant in the osc. :mad:Oh, I beg to differ, amigo. 'Democracy' was never a problem in the O6C. Turning every election - from Westminster to the parish council - into a vote over religious supremacy was. I wouldn't argue with Israel (or ZOP) proper being 'Democratic' but there is a proportion of the population that is disenfranchised despite having the vote. As for the West Bank, I can't see those people being allowed to return anyone to the Knesset unless they become outnumbered by the Brooklyn boys. Then again, maybe one.

But I digress. The upshot of the Stormont years was a whole swathe of people with outside khasis voting for Tories by another name.

[Lionel Ritchie]

While I agree there would be no problem wearing a Glens shirt in Dublin - it would be for the following reasons

1) Nobody would know what it was.

2) Even if some did - an RTE news report from May 1983 showed the Irish Cup final with red/white/blue Bluemen fighting green shirted Glenman. Many people here still assume the Blues v Glens rivalry is along sectarian lines.

Up until recently I would have said there would be no problem walking around Dublin in a Rangers shirt (again Linfield may not be recognizable) - I don't believe this anymore. Furthermore you used to see Rangers tops around in the late 80's/early 90's - Galway, Grafton street and in Ballybunion that I remember. Despite the reversals in the 2 team's fortunes it is not enough to explain the absence of any recently - has anyone else seen any?

I actually think it would make a good story. Walk down Grafton street, go to a shopping centre and attend an EL game in a Rangers shirt and interview some people who react.

myself and a journalist friend discussed doing exactly this some time ago. It was after i told him a story of being in a club in Limerick -Termites (alternative/indie) when it used be on in the now shut savoy. Wasn't a very busy night for a saturday and you couldn't help but notice a guy of about 19 or 20 in a white Rangers away shirt.
there's always the risk of exaggerating when it comes to these things but i remember thinking at the time if he was in any other club in Limerick he might have gotten hassle. maybe only verbal abuse, maybe worse who knows.

the kid was a bit wasted though and I did certainly think I should've told him to be careful if visiting fast food places on the way home, where pretty much like all irish urban centers, the trouble is likely to flare up.

There used be an unofficial Rangers supporters club who met out in the south court to watch matches i believe. I'm told they're ex-pat scots working in raheen and the like.

[lopez]

There used be an unofficial Rangers supporters club who met out in the south court to watch matches i believe. I'm told they're ex-pat scots working in raheen and the like.There's a Dublin Rangers supporters club although I think there are some local members. I think they (used to) meet in a Gay bar and that they had some polo shirts done up with a tricolour on them which may have gone down as bad at Ibrox than a 'gers shirt in O'Connell Street.

Certainly I think 'gers support is greater than one would expect in the south and I think many of these locals find no conflict supporting the Irish side. I used to work with a Dub son of a CofI cleric in the mid eighties - PP knew him - who supported them passively (ie. whenever Celtic was brought up).

[gspain]

The Dublin Loyal RSC can be found at

http://members.lycos.co.uk/dublinrangers/

They use the Dublin crest and have a website in Irish too but I don't think they use the tricolour.

I don't know any of them but there have been a few articles about them in the papers.

Brian Kerr is a Rangers fan as have all his family going way back. Alan Maybury also although I assume his loyalties now are to the Jambos.

I know of at least one Rangers fan who travels to a large number of our away games and most Ireland home games. I know of another who regularly attends home games and has travelled away occasionally.

Another Linfield/Rangers fan I used to know in Dublin had a number of car stickers etc proclaiming his joint loyalties until he got the windows put in after a Rovers game in Milltown. He used to travel up to all the big European nights at Windsor with a carload from Dublin.

I also know of a number of southern protestants who who do not support Rangers but their favourite cross channel club is anything from Liverpool, Man Utd, Sheff Wed or Chelsea. They would all identify with Ireland as their national team.

The RoI is approx 93% Catholic but that still leaves a sizable minority of other religions and I would never like to see the day when they are not welcome supporting our national team.

I am aware of an East Donegal Northern Ireland SC but I don't know of anyone from the RoI who doesn't support us on ground sof religion or lack of identity.

[lopez]

I've nothing against the Donegal NISC supporting the North. Hardly glory hunters.

I agree with what you are saying about the Irish team. One of the (pleasantly) surprising things I've witnessed at the last two Irish games I was at were the increase in blacks in Ireland shirts, following the lads. Long may it continue.

I don't think that the wearing of Celtic shirts is necessarily sectarian at an Ireland game - as you mentioned in the thread about the rugby shirt - but following Ireland is for everyone living in the 26C and many millions outside it's de jure boundary that are Irish, despite their club, religious or political allegiances. I would agree that Irish Rangers fans are hardly feeling welcome at the moment, even though - as you point out - the manager is one.

[lopez]

Have met a couple of African fellas,plus there's 2-3 mixed-race lads I see irregularly,Dubs I think......this who you mean?Btw,' blacks' :rolleyes: ;)I've always seen mixed-race lads at Irish games but these have always had one Irish parent. First one I remember was Malta '83 of whom he and his mate - both Londoners - kindly lent me a night at their pad while my flatmates took in two nice Manchester 'ladies' for a night of heavy Ugandan discussions. However when I mean 'black' in this case, I mean of purely African descent with no Irish parentage, although born or have grown up in Ireland with Irish citizenship. This is the changing face of Ireland.

[gspain]

I've nothing against the Donegal NISC supporting the North. Hardly glory hunters.

I agree with what you are saying about the Irish team. One of the (pleasantly) surprising things I've witnessed at the last two Irish games I was at were the increase in blacks in Ireland shirts, following the lads. Long may it continue.

I don't think that the wearing of Celtic shirts is necessarily sectarian at an Ireland game - as you mentioned in the thread about the rugby shirt - but following Ireland is for everyone living in the 26C and many millions outside it's de jure boundary that are Irish, despite their club, religious or political allegiances. I would agree that Irish Rangers fans are hardly feeling welcome at the moment, even though - as you point out - the manager is one.

I'm just disappointed the East Donegal lads don't feel part of the country they were born in.

Yes noticed a few people of colour (whatever the PC term is) in Basle - great to see. there were some comments during USA 94 along the lines of the Ireland fans must be racist as despite having black players none of the blacks in Ireland chose to follow the team. Maybe there is another Gullit or Zidane growing up in Dublin today.

I don't see Celtic shirts are Irish games as being sectarian and I appreciate they would be the club of choice for the Irish diaspora (I would hope that Shels, Cork or Limerick would be the choice for those of us at home) however it can give off a sectarian image. I've been to 5 Irish games away to NI (3 senior, B and youths) and would naturally be wary of the guys in Rangers shirts

[lopez]

I'm just disappointed the East Donegal lads don't feel part of the country they were born in.

I don't see Celtic shirts are Irish games as being sectarian and I appreciate they would be the club of choice for the Irish diaspora (I would hope that Shels, Cork or Limerick would be the choice for those of us at home) however it can give off a sectarian image. I've been to 5 Irish games away to NI (3 senior, B and youths) and would naturally be wary of the guys in Rangers shirtsI too would be wary of NI fans in Rangers shirts. Also, as can be seen by the poor attendance when we met the North in 1999 at Lansdowne Road at the same time as the Scottish Cup final, it shows where many people's priorities lie.

While we all want Protestants born within the state to follow Ireland, I can understand why a section of East Donegal Protestants follow the North. Historically they were 'sold out' twice by their own politicians. Firstly along with all Southern Unionists when the likes of Carson, Craig etc accepted partition and secondly through the stitch-up known as the Boundary Commission. Therefore they are ethnically no less British than their couinterparts within the O6C.

However no one has said that they are NOT also supporters of the Republic. According to one website of theirs they follow Finn Harps along with Rangers - not Linfield or Glentoran - and I presume Belfast is easier to get to aswell as more welcoming for them without the Celtic tops. Also, depsite what Davros suggests, most Irish people have or would support the North if the sectarianism of their support was removed. This, despite efforts, has not been achieved, because fans are still walking in with scarves depicting the Dutch homosexual on his horse, while the flag of the indigenous community, which would have once got you a night's stay courtesy of the RUC, would still land you with a slap if you brought that it.

Would you object to Protestants from East Donegal carrying the Fitzgerald saltire (aka the St Patrick's Cross) to an Ireland game if they were fully behind the team? I wouldn't. I would have thought that those 'Ivory Coast flags' that Lux mentions would be a problem at Windsor Park if they were used to support the opposition.

No doubt we'll get some old drivel about 'a foreign flag', blah, blah, blah, 'articles 2 & 3', blah, blah, blah, 'can't wear my glens shirt in Dublin', despite this argument being a fallacy with the number of French tricolours being used amongst the home support with the IFA crest in the middle. And I thought they played in Green. :confused:

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Rangers shirts are rare in Ireland. People are not brave enough to wear them. I can't blame them, considering the appearance of most Celtic-jersey-wearing nut-jobs in this country.
I do however know a well-established League of Ireland player who wears his Rangers jersey. Think he does it just to be different. :rolleyes:

[Donal81]

"you lot stopping booing Rangers players and we'll stop booing Celtic players"

NI supporter at work today

Why don't you just stop booing Celtic players and don't see the fact that mindless Irish scum boo Rangers players as an excuse? I see your point, I went to see Ireland play Georgia in Lansdowne last year, sitting in the bucket seats, and the crowd booed whatever Georgian happened to be playing for Rangers. My mate who I went with started booing as well. I told him to shut the f*ck up as he was embarrassing me and giving decent supporters a bad reputation so he did. Just because ignorant clowns down here boo Rangers players, that doesn't mean you should be booing Celtic players, you become a soccer lout just like the idiots down here. If that's what you want to be, fine.

[nlgbbbblth]

Why don't you just stop booing Celtic players and don't see the fact that mindless Irish scum boo Rangers players as an excuse? I see your point, I went to see Ireland play Georgia in Lansdowne last year, sitting in the bucket seats, and the crowd booed whatever Georgian happened to be playing for Rangers. My mate who I went with started booing as well. I told him to shut the f*ck up as he was embarrassing me and giving decent supporters a bad reputation so he did. Just because ignorant clowns down here boo Rangers players, that doesn't mean you should be booing Celtic players, you become a soccer lout just like the idiots down here. If that's what you want to be, fine.

I agree with you
Presume you realise I was quoting someone else
I'll pass on your thoughts to him though

[gspain]

However no one has said that they are NOT also supporters of the Republic. According to one website of theirs they follow Finn Harps along with Rangers - not Linfield or Glentoran - and I presume Belfast is easier to get to aswell as more welcoming for them without the Celtic tops. Also, depsite what Davros suggests, most Irish people have or would support the North if the sectarianism of their support was removed. This, despite efforts, has not been achieved, because fans are still walking in with scarves depicting the Dutch homosexual on his horse, while the flag of the indigenous community, which would have once got you a night's stay courtesy of the RUC, would still land you with a slap if you brought that it.

Would you object to Protestants from East Donegal carrying the Fitzgerald saltire (aka the St Patrick's Cross) to an Ireland game if they were fully behind the team? I wouldn't. I would have thought that those 'Ivory Coast flags' that Lux mentions would be a problem at Windsor Park if they were used to support the opposition.

No doubt we'll get some old drivel about 'a foreign flag', blah, blah, blah, 'articles 2 & 3', blah, blah, blah, 'can't wear my glens shirt in Dublin', despite this argument being a fallacy with the number of French tricolours being used amongst the home support with the IFA crest in the middle. And I thought they played in Green. :confused:

Absolutely no problem with the St. Patricks Cross. St Pats fans fly it too or at least they used too.

If those guys from East Donegal feel ethnic Northern Irish or whatever then fine. I would be concerned if they felt they could not follow the RoI because it was becoming an extension of Celtic at the national stage.

Obviously they would support Finn Harps in East Donegal - they are the local team and Harps always have signed players of all creeds and none as have all the LoI clubs at all times.

[Lux Interior]

Ive been away for a bit ..... but 'big up' to the lads from Donegal ;) ... and, Lopez ... less of the sixth form rhetoric ... happy to be Irish and British.

U okay with that, dude?

[Duncan Gardner]

Morning Dav- ain't ye a plane to catch?

If you have time, do explain why Lux can't be both Irish and British, while you can plausibly claim both Irish and Indian (all this while spending yer entire life since age three in this country?)... :confused:

[lopez]

Ive been away for a bit ..... but 'big up' to the lads from Donegal ;) ... and, Lopez ... less of the sixth form rhetoric ... happy to be Irish and British. U okay with that, dude?Nice to see you back, Lux. Making up for the sixth form rhetoric I suppose as the nearest I got to that place was abusing the people in it at my school. :( As for who you think you are, that's your problem. Just don't try and insult the intelligence of posters here by changing your nationality to gain points. You agreed (admitedly before I went off on a political speech) that you are a Briton from Ireland? Wy not stick with that rather than on the one hand claiming to be Irish one minute and then resorting to sly digs about the majority of the island the next.

As for the Donegal NISC, big up aswell. One previous guest from the north, the head honcho of 'ourweeminds', thought they were merely at Windosr to make 'a political not a footballing statement' and he had no respect for them.

[lopez]

Morning Dav- ain't ye a plane to catch?

If you have time, do explain why Lux can't be both Irish and British, while you can plausibly claim both Irish and Indian (all this while spending yer entire life since age three in this country?)... :confused:Is this some sort of windup? :mad:

I would count you amongst the top five most intelligent charachters I know, let alone to have posted on this site, but you are now trying to compare someone with parents from two different countries with people from a community, the majority of whom owe their existence in Ireland to a colonial land grab, consistently eschewed the decision of the majority to any form of self determination (even it has to be said within 'the union') purely through religious bigotry, and pledges allegience to a former colonial power rather than any government elected by the people of Ireland (BTW, this doesn't include the present Dail). I mean, I don't claim to be British myself but I'd hardly claim Chez Lopez was sovereing Irish territory let alone trying to annex Kilburn, Cricklewood and Digbeth into some sort of Irish offshire Cayman islands.

Saying Irish unionists are equally Irish and British is like saying the pied noir are equally Algerian and French. My sister has a pied noir friend born in Algiers and lived there until Algerian independence. She claims to be ONLY French (I can't say I'd disagree with her), doesn't wear a hajib around her head, speaks f*ck all Arabic and generally thinks all Maghrebians have just stepped out of the dark ages. Change a few words like French for British and Algerians, Arabic and Maghrebians for Irish, and you could be talking about a large swathe of the unionist poulation of Ireland. In fact the only person who mentions her alleged 'joint nationality' is her husband, and even this is clearly only intended as a wind-up.

Perhaps you could explain why some-one Irish would want to partition their country against both the wishes of both the majority on the island and the parliament of the country they claim to be 'loyal' to?

[Duncan Gardner]

Is this some sort of windup? :mad:

No :)


Saying Irish unionists are equally Irish and British is like

...self-evident? A statement of the bleedin' obvious? If Paisley says he isn't Irish, it's easily corrected rhetoric: if you say it of me, just plain daft. I owe my Irishness ancestry to about eight generations of Irish ancestors. And I was hoping for a brief respite from our local numbskull droning on about the plantation :(


Perhaps you could explain why some-one Irish would want to partition their country against both the wishes of both the majority on the island and the parliament of the country they claim to be 'loyal' to?

I already have, ad nauseam, and there are plenty of books on the subject. Anyway, are you expecting me to be bound by political decisions taken 50 years before you or I were born? Thanks for the plug though. I'll buy ye a beer next time yer down at McGoverns in NW6

[lopez]

...self-evident? A statement of the bleedin' obvious? If Paisley says he isn't Irish, it's easily corrected rhetoric: if you say it of me, just plain daft. I owe my Irishness ancestry to about eight generations of Irish ancestors. And I was hoping for a brief respite from our local numbskull droning on about the plantation :(
A statement of the bleedin' obvious? Why? Because, you happened to be born there and you can count X ammount of ancestors! Personally I'm not au fait with all of your politics, but I'm sure that the nationality you consider yourself is British and that you wish the O6C to remain part of Britain -despite the wishes of the majority of your fellow countrymen and women (the Irish ones that is) - rather than be run by a 32C Irish government - constitutional, federal or confederal - or for NI's status (and the question of the football side) to be buried forever by allowing the area to ruled jointly by both London and Dublin.

I already have, ad nauseam, and there are plenty of books on the subject. Anyway, are you expecting me to be bound by political decisions taken 50 years before you or I were born? Thanks for the plug though. I'll buy ye a beer next time yer down at McGoverns in NW6Thanks for the offer of a beer which is a lot more appreciated than your suggestions of books on Irish partition. (BTW: Alvin Jackson's recent offering on Home Rule is my suggestion as a must for anyone interested in this subject.)

[Lux Interior]

Cheers, Duncan ... well put, as ever .... all I would say is that Irishness and Britshness are not mutually exclusive, despite the best efforts of Senor Lopez and AdieuAdair.

I'm just back from The Undertones gig ... really bursting at the seams with Irish pride, although tomorrow, I'll take my tea from a mug depicting HRH the POW. :cool:

Algerians and French .... was that the sound of a barrel being scraped by someone holding a handful of straws? :D

[lopez]

Cheers, Duncan ... well put, as ever .... all I would say is that Irishness and Britshness are not mutually exclusive, despite the best efforts of Senor Lopez and AdieuAdair.
Of course Irishness and Britishness are not mutually exclusive. It's just that, on the evidence of your posts, you are not in this category. As for Duncan, if 'self-evident...statement of the bleedin' obvious...easily corrected rhetoric' is what you consider the makings of a good argument then it's no wonder so many schoolkids are turning out like these lads (http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery1.html) when they have blokes like yourself as their mentors.

I'm just back from The Undertones gig ... really bursting at the seams with Irish pride, although tomorrow, I'll take my tea from a mug depicting HRH the POW.
Undertones, Irish? Shurely shome mishtake? I would have thought you would have had them down as British like Mary McAleese? What makes you say that she's British and the Undertones are Irish? Initially I came to the conclusion that the thought of some Taig b*tch from your home town making it to the same level of society as the mother of your hero has p*ssed you off big time, but as you keep reminding us with your 'some of my best friends are Catholics' line, it can't be that. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts if you can spare one. :rolleyes:

BTW, nice attempt at a wind up with the POW cup, but you've been watching too much Jimmy Cricket. Despite coming from a part of the world where there is too much worship of homosexual royals, I can't see someone of your age being seen dead with a mug depicting this Gay prince. In fact I can't see there being a demand for the mass production of cups in the first place, such is his current unpopularity.


Algerians and French .... was that the sound of a barrel being scraped by someone holding a handful of straws?Apologies Lux but that bit was directed at the clever one out of you and Duncan. I never in my dreams expected you to know what Algeria was let alone what the 'pied noir' were. :D

[Superhoops]

Apologies Lux but that bit was directed at the clever one out of you and Duncan. I never in my dreams expected you to know what Algeria was let alone what the 'pied noir' were. :D

Amigo, you are suckin 'rhetoric' diesel tonite! :rolleyes:

[1MickCollins]

Lads - if you are going to debate the premise that you can be both British and Irish then you both may want to define what you mean by British and by Irish. I have a feeling that your definitions of Irishness would be poles apart for starters.

[lopez]

Lads - if you are going to debate the premise that you can be both British and Irish then you both may want to define what you mean by British and by Irish. I have a feeling that your definitions of Irishness would be poles apart for starters.This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane. If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

[tricky_colour]

This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane. If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

I don't want to go into this in detail, but when countries lilke Britain go
about their empire building and their empire crumbles they leave a lot
of shyte behind them.
Northern Ireland is such a state.

It is bugger all use to GB but they are kind of stuck with it one
way or another.

Iraq is a similar pile of shyte, its not a natural country, hence the
chaos when you try to make it one.

[1MickCollins]

If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

Is that a dig at Michael Collins :D ? I don't recall any part of this island being annexed in the last 300 hundred years. The Unionist majority agreed to secession. Sinn Fein entered into negiotataions and accepted a 26 county state. They spent much more time quibbling about the oath of allegiance than about the new NI state, that was easily punted to the Boundary Commission. By your definition the majority ( slim in terms of Dail votes but much greater among the people ) of Irish nationalists in the early '20s weren't Irish at all.

What I think you mean is that you can have allegiance to one nation only and
I think it is fair to say the oath of allegiance had more to do with the civil war than the NI state and partition - I think it is obvious that any Irishman who took this oath did so in bad faith;

'I ... do solemnly swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established, and that I will be faithful to H.M. King George V, his heirs and successors by law in virtue of the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain and her adherence to and membership of the group of nations forming the British Commonwealth of nations.'



If you look it in those terms of allegiance you cannot be both British and Irish as you cannot have true allegiance to to two different soverign nations. On the other hand if your definition of Irishness is simply 'I was born here' then you could of course be both British and Irish is a shallow or factual sense but not in a real sense.

For instance being British to a Welshman might be something like the equivalent of being a Eurpoean to an Irishman. Ireland first then Europe. Wales first then Britain. I don't know if Duncan would say Ireland first then Britain? That maybe is the question, how much allegiance does Duncan have to the right of the majority of this island to self determination?

[Pat O' Banton]

This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane.

Well thats me wasted the last fifteen years of me life! :eek: :D

[sylvo]

[QUOTE=lopez]..easily corrected rhetoric' is what you consider the makings of a good argument then it's no wonder so many schoolkids are turning out like these lads (http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery1.html)



Forget those guy's, try going out for a couple of pint's and talking some jazz with these fella's in the matching bright jersey's. ;) :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery3.html

[Duncan Gardner]

Evening chaps. Just winding down after refereeing the goal feast that was Dundee United- Rangers in the London Supporters' League earlier. Quite well-behaved really- only one booking, for persistent Ned-like fouling, yapping and threatening to burst into tears like a big baby- and even then the fouled Dundee player tried to talk me out of waving the card :)

Some nice pictures of shell-suited Glaswegians supplied by Lopez. Er, what was their point?

You may overestimate my knowledge of the Pieds Noirs. I read Albert Camus at school, and saw 'Day of the Jackal' a few times. Incidentally, I imagine Lux will remember when NI played Algeria, in the 1986 World Cup. It was a draw, can't recall if we scored or not.

My claim to be Irish is self-evident to regular readers here because, er, it's immediately obvious to everyone that, apart from growing up there like past generations of my family, and to those that have met me having a strong Irish accent, I am quite happy to admit it. I can't see any rational reason to do otherwise, unlike some of the more contorting Ulster unionists. Oh, and because that argument's simple and brief doesn't lessen its validity, does it?

Mick: define 'definition' :) As for the principle of self-determination, I hold to it: but I recognise that, unless you fragment a society into a huge number of Chinese boxes (or Cantons, like in Switzerland), there will inevitably be disaffected minorities. In Ireland they're the northern nationalists: without partition, there would've been a larger number of disaffected unionists. (This is, of course, what basically all unionists think).

[Pat O' Banton]

Forget those guy's, try going out for a couple of pint's and talking some jazz with these fella's in the matching bright jersey's. ;) :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery3.html

Sylv, if only it were that easy, unfortunately my close studies on the mean (Argyle, Buchanan etc) Streets have revealed equal amounts if not more of these characters wearing horizontal stripes ;) :(

[sylvo]

Sylv, if only it were that easy, unfortunately my close studies on the mean (Argyle, Buchanan etc) Streets have revealed equal amounts if not more of these characters wearing horizontal stripes ;) :(


Hey don't I know it, the shirt's are pretty irrelevant, the badly dyed hair to match their jersey's now that was something else.
Hey I seem to remember someone who used to complain to us lot with the line ''ooohhh this is so unfair'' who should be on this website, seeing he's got both the gear and the accent now. ;)

[Duncan Gardner]

I agree with Ian Paisley as well as David Ervine

Really? Who will the confused Irish/ Indian/ Englishman give his support to next? The Orange Order? Generalissimo Franco? Baroness Thatcher? I think we should be told!