over 1000 people in the school in beslan

[the 12 th man]

russian authorities this morning reluctantly admitted that there are roughly 1000 people in the school,overwriting the original estimate of 2-300.

the kidnappers have refused all offers of food as they are suspicious of any contacts being made with them.

i have to say cannot fathom what were the chechnian (spelling ?) kidnappers are thinking about here.they have scored a massive P.R. own goal by taking babies and young children as hostages.any hope of good will towards them has gone.
pedriatricians say young children can go about 6-7 days without food and then serious problems will follow.

difficult to see a solution on this one without serious bloodshed.

[thecorner]

apparently russian troops in control of school

these people are lunatics

[Peadar]

Latest from BreakingNews.ie (http://breakingnews.ie/2004/09/03/story164821.html)

News reports from Russia are saying that five hostage-takers have been killed at the school in southern Russian where hundreds of children and adults were held captive since Wednesday.

At least 40 of the hostages have been able to flee the school and a news report says "most" of the rest are alive.

[the 12 th man]

yeah it looks like its over,skynews have it live now

[The Donie Forde]

7 hostages confirmed dead: number expected to rise :(

Donie

[joeSoap]

reported 20 dead on sky news a few minutes ago

[thecorner]

could be at least 100 dead in the gym now

[the 12 th man]

could be at least 100 dead in the gym now

thats terrible.....mostly little children.
sad day when this kind of thing comes to pass.
r.i.p. :(

[pete]

Supposed to be a lot of violence towards asian peoples (from the other Republic) in Moscow these days as they associated with Chechnians which also very sad.

[liam88]

150 dead in the gym-may be exceeded say Moscow :( Still rumours of hostage takes in the basement of the school holding some of the kids.
With regard to the Arab link nine of the hhostage-takers are reported to be arab.
To be honest it's a discrace. Taking hostages is terrible and hideous but taking and hiding behind little kids as young as four is just cowardly.

[yur man]

the russians have a way too aggressive approach to these things

theres gotta be a better way than stormin the place

[thecorner]

the russians have a way too aggressive approach to these things

theres gotta be a better way than stormin the place

its kind of a catch 22 situation, i think

if they dont storm it, all may be killed
if they do,its a case of damage limitation and not how many they kill,but how many they save

[the 12 th man]

its kind of a catch 22 situation, i think

if they dont storm it, all may be killed
if they do,its a case of damage limitation and not how many they kill,but how many they save

agreed,
the so called experts are comming out of the woodwork now condemming the actions of the russian soldiers.

look ,there was no way those chechans were going to give up peacefully no matter what.
i'm gutted that so many innocent children were killed but i have the feeling we might have had a lot more casualties if the kidnappers did'nt get their way.

[brendy_éire]

Crap way for it to end alright, but I don't think it's fair to blame the Russian army. They done what they were supposed to do. A hostage taker accidently blows herself, some hostages try to escape, they get shot, troops storm the building. That's the normal thing to do.
The people who broke through the security cordon during the whole thing shouldn't have done so. How many of those were killed? Probably a lot. There were ones who brought in their own guns, no doubt a number of them were killed, probably by each other or the Russian army.

Soft target to pick really, but a smart one at that. Could be very easily repeated, schools can't be defended against that sort of thing.

12th man, I'm sure there was plenty of chance of ending it peacefully. The talks seemed to be going well enough, they allowed a bus in to take away bodies, and chances are they would have allowed food and water in as well at some point (they wouldn't have let people die of thirst, that would defeat the actual purpose of taking hostages). They wouldn't have gotten the Russian army to pull out of Chechnya, but they might have got some POWs released.

Ultimately though, the blame lies with the Russia govt, and in particular, Boris Yeltsin. He started the whole damn thing. Putin got elected promising, amongst other things, to end the Chechen problem once and for all. But he used the wrong tactics to do it. Trying to crush them by military means didn't work. He created a new type of Chechen fighter, a younger, more radical, often (Islamic) fundementialist movement has emerged.

The only way to solve the thing is by giving the Chechens power over themselves. They've seen stacks of other regions of the USSR gain independence and wonder why the hell they were stopped by military means. The first Chechen War was about nationalism, the second involved religion.

Conor, where ye getting those Al Qaeda link stories from? Wouldn't a link to Al Qaeda be a handy wee excuse for Putin. The Russian govt will blame who they feel it most benefitial to blame, à la the previous Spanish govt blaming the Madrid train bombings on ETA. Al Qaeda automatically gets blamed for a lot of stuff these days, often rightly so, but don't jump to conclusions.
As for the French journalists, the militia group found a few westerners, realised they were French, but thought that they might as well get them for something, so they went for the religious symbols ban. That's how I see it anyway.

It'll be interesting to see what Putin does after this. Normally ye'd expect Putin to go in and kill a few thousand people, but that hasn't worked in the past. The Chechen rebels could just issue a statement saying more school hostage taking operations are planned if Russia launches an offensive in Chechnya. For people driven to the edge, it's a brilliant tactic, and one of the few options they have in taking on the largest nation on earth.

Wondering, do people think it's worse that so many children died? Would it have been better if it was adults instead?
IMO, a life's a life. I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.

[thecorner]

I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.


cant believe im reading a statement like fcuking that :mad:

what a fcuking tosser

[Dan K]

Wondering, do people think it's worse that so many children died? Would it have been better if it was adults instead?
IMO, a life's a life. I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.

Ok, I'm going to try and answer this with my head rather than my heart. FWIW, I'm assuming that you, like me, have no children of your own;

Although your view is 'logical', logic doesn't really hold much sway in these situations, does it? You cannot be clinical in these situations.

I guess the reason people are more outraged by kids getting killed is that not only are they innocent they are completely defenceless. If you have a point to make, you have to make it in a valid manner. Attacking children loses you sympathy, as it is an incredibly cowardly act. I could start a fight for a five year old and win. Wouldn't be so confident with someone the same size as me though.

I know you could turn that around, and say "well the Russians are superior in military power, and are just bullying the Chechens" - they are. They too have killed Chechen children - the difference is that they didn't make the kids a direct, military target. The Chechen's have lost a lot of international support over this.

The crux of the matter is: Who would you rather die - you or your kids? Answer that truthfully, and you've answered your own question.

The children are the future, and it's not 'right' for a parent to bury their child.

[Metrostars]

Conor, where ye getting those Al Qaeda link stories from? Wouldn't a link to Al Qaeda be a handy wee excuse for Putin. The Russian govt will blame who they feel it most benefitial to blame, à la the previous Spanish govt blaming the Madrid train bombings on ETA. Al Qaeda automatically gets blamed for a lot of stuff these days, often rightly so, but don't jump to conclusions.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L03410297.htm
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040831/325/f1mgp.html
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1041302004



Wondering, do people think it's worse that so many children died? Would it have been better if it was adults instead?
IMO, a life's a life. I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.

I hope you're not being serious.

[Plastic Paddy]

IMO, a life's a life. I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.

Ahh, Brendy lad, just when you were doing so well you go and fluff it. I'm not going to add to the condemnation heaped on you by the others. It's probably all those years spent on the mean streets of Stroke City that have hardened your heart, no?

All I'll say in follow-up to Dan K is that I hope you're never forced to defend or re-evaluate that statement in the light of personal experience.

:( PP

[the 12 th man]

in fairness to brendy his points were well made and the comment regarding the children was not to be taken literally imho.
his point about a life is a life is strictly speaking true but you cound'nt compare, say the life of a 90 year old granny and a newborn infant,while the granny would hold onto her life as long as possible(would'nt we all),the life of a child is something special,it is evolving,the childs potential has not been reached.

you will know(if you read signatures)that i have 2 children and the thoughts of anything happening to them in something like this incident chills me to the core.

brendy,i am not attepmpting to speak for you but i think people are taking you up wrong on your last point

[Closed Account 2]

Ultimately though, the blame lies with the Russia govt, and in particular, Boris Yeltsin. He started the whole damn thing. Putin got elected promising, amongst other things, to end the Chechen problem once and for all. But he used the wrong tactics to do it. Trying to crush them by military means didn't work. He created a new type of Chechen fighter, a younger, more radical, often (Islamic) fundementialist movement has emerged.

Are you blaming Yeltsin for what happened at the School :eek:. Seems a bit harsh... personally I'd blame the Chechen and Arab / Moslem Terrorists, after all they went into a school with the specific aim of holding those children hostage. The fact they placed trip-wire, booby traps and dangled nail bombs from basketball hoops in gym suggests they really were not that concerned about the kids' lives. The amount of sophisticated weaponary, the location (c. 100 miles from Chechnya, and in an un-Islamic, unsympathetic to the Chechen cause), and the military-like tactics of it would suggest to me that its not the cliché of a small defiant act of an-oh-so-oppressed nation that some seem to be suggesting... I'd hazard a guess some big organisation probably funded this, maybe the Saudis.

I used to have some sympathy towards the Chechen cause but stopped careing about them when I heard they were doing stuff like this (javascript:OpenChildWindow('http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/CFW/details_Pop.aspx?iid=1592237&cdi=0', '', 'width=640,height=500,menubar=no,resizable=yes,scr ollbars=yes,status=no,titlebar=no,toolbar=no');) in the 1994-96 war.

Both the Russians and the Chechens have done pretty bad stuff in Chechnya but neither the Russian Army nor the Russian Government, etc have done something that specifically targets innocent civilians, in particular those below legal fighting age. The gorey obession with sadistic, ritualistic death has been the haulmark of Chechen fighting since the first war. The beheading of POWs with their hands tied behind their back, the gougeing out of eyes etc its all be done with Islamic-fundamentalistic zeal and recorded on camcorders etc to put on their filthy little websites (for examples click this (http://www.thenausea.com/chechenya.html) link (its not a fundamentalist site but shows the sort of moronic crap they post on them)).

If we adopt the approach that its all the fault of the Russians, then soon we'll be saying that its "ok" for the scumbags to conduct similar raids on US and British Schools... What next ? the Islamic-funamentalistic jihad will probably target the EU for "oppressing Moslems", it seems theyve starting doing that already with the French hostages, you say they just took Westerners and thought they might as well get them for something, well other groups have spared some Turks and Kuwaiti truck drivers, why not do the same for the French?

Also bear in mind that Al-Qaeda has fought their Jihad in places like East Timor and Armenia / Nagorno-Karabach. Neither of these countries have oppressed Moslems, especially not East Timor given its only been a country of its own right for about 2 years, all this is covered in Gunaratna's book.


The only way to solve the thing is by giving the Chechens power over themselves. They've seen stacks of other regions of the USSR gain independence and wonder why the hell they were stopped by military means.

Maybe but thats not going to happen for a long time. The Russians fear a domino effect, that if Chechnya falls then Dagestan (who the Chechens invaded in 1999), Ingushetia, and even places in more central like Tartarstan would demand independance. It could cause the Russian Federation to fall apart at the seems. Also bear in mind that the other regions of the USSR to get independance were infact SSRs (Soviet Republics eg Azerbaijan, Armenia, Latvia etc) Chechnya was/has been considered part of Russia since pre-Soviet times. Its hard to draw analagoies but if you compare say Latvia and Chechnya, then Latvia is like the Panamainian Canal Zone or Puerto Rico to the Americans and Chechnya like Hawaii, or Alaska. Maybe its better to say Latvia is like is Gibraltar or the Falklands to the UK and Chechnya is more like Wales or even Cornwall. Also 30% of Chechens are ethnically Russian, their saftey would be jepordiased if Russia left. Similarly some Chechens support Putin, even ones that fought for Nationalism in 1994-6 (such as the President assasinated this year) would prefer Putin to be in charge than Shamil Bayseev's Wahabbi/Saudi backed lot.


Conor, where ye getting those Al Qaeda link stories from? Wouldn't a link to Al Qaeda be a handy wee excuse for Putin. The Russian govt will blame who they feel it most benefitial to blame, à la the previous Spanish govt blaming the Madrid train bombings on ETA. Al Qaeda automatically gets blamed for a lot of stuff these days, often rightly so, but don't jump to conclusions.


Chechnya was/is a big destination for the Global-Jihadis / Al-Qaeda. Gunaratna's book says a fair bit about the normal Al-Qaeda moron's destinations, so far as I remember the usual resumé often resembles something like this

1980s - Soviet Afghan War (pre Al-Qaeda)
1990s - Bosnia, Nagorno Karabach, Algeria, Chechnya, Kosovo, Indonesia, Phillipenes, etc

This (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52849-2004Aug9.html) is a good report on how the 9/11 hijackers were originally going to go to Chechnya instead of blow up the USA.


Wondering, do people think it's worse that so many children died? Would it have been better if it was adults instead?
IMO, a life's a life. I don't really get why people seem particularly outraged when it's children getting killed.

Yeah a life is a life and to take any life like that is just plain wrong. But there is just something even worse about gunning down toddlers running away from a school. A child cant really defend itself at all when adult is attacking it, attacking children is just wrong on so many levels, its like the sick sadistic people you read about who put pets in microwaves for "fun" or who mug 80 year old grannies in the street.

I'm not trying to pick on you or anything Brendy, and the points that the Russian Army's not got a good track record in Chechnya are true. I would have posted a very similar transcript to you about a year or two ago, but since doing essays / reading etc on Chechnya and Russia this past year I think its not a simple as is often portrayed in the media. The fact a group with what would appear to be Al-Qaeda members (or at the very least global jihadis, who have not love for the West at all) was able to conduct a raid of such savagry, with such military precision, in country that has had past experince of terrorism is very worrying indeed.

[thecorner]

in fairness to brendy his points were well made and the comment regarding the children was not to be taken literally imho.
his point about a life is a life is strictly speaking true but you cound'nt compare, say the life of a 90 year old granny and a newborn infant,while the granny would hold onto her life as long as possible(would'nt we all),the life of a child is something special,it is evolving,the childs potential has not been reached.

you will know(if you read signatures)that i have 2 children and the thoughts of anything happening to them in something like this incident chills me to the core.

brendy,i am not attepmpting to speak for you but i think people are taking you up wrong on your last point

how the fcuk can u defend this pr!ck

ill risk being banned or suspended for this but brendy... U R A PR!CK

i have a son and i would gladly put his life in front of mine

id gladly stand in front of a bullet for him

you have some fcuking neck :mad:

[liam88]

Agreeing with PP here Brendy-a well thought out argument ruined by a stupid comment that will probably change over time when you have kid/nephews/nieces etc.
I know it may sound wierd coming from a 16 year old but I know all parents want is a better quality of life for their children than they have themselves and that the worse thing ever is a parent having to bury their own kid-as has been said.
Don't want to re-gurgitate points made before but aye it's not about logic and statistics and which flag is on top of political buildings, it's innocent lives.
If we're going to compare to Northern Ireland say, I'd rather it was part of the Republic but I don't think people should be killed for it. The Troubles were responsible for the loss of so many INNOCENT lives and it makes you think was it worth it? Not trying to be un-patriotic or anything but innocent people are murdered by both sides in any conflict-the Troubles and Chechnya included and innocent people should never have to die no matter what. Hence it doesn't matter which side you support but you can never support their tactics if innocent people are being killed. Like I said-I'd support the Republican cause but never the IRA for the simple reason that the IRA killed innocent people-the majority of whom had nothing to do with the conflict.
Sorry for bringing Northern Ireland into this but just drawing comparissons-personally I don't know enough about Russia/Chechnya to make a judgement on who should have sovereignty but I do know that killing innocent people especially children is wrong no matter is it's Russians, Checyns, Americans, Al-Qaueda, Isralies, Palestinians, IRA or LVF doing it.
Nuff said

[brendy_éire]

brendy,i am not attepmpting to speak for you but i think people are taking you up wrong on your last point

Yes! Very much so.


Although your view is 'logical', logic doesn't really hold much sway in these situations, does it? You cannot be clinical in these situations.

I think people should always aim to be logical, regardless of the situation. People being led by emotions do stupid things, like taking people hostage in a school.


The crux of the matter is: Who would you rather die - you or your kids? Answer that truthfully, and you've answered your own question.

I'm not a parent, so I guess I'm not able to understand what a parent feels for their child exactly. ATM, I wouldn't give up my life for anyone else, though if it was 2 lives I would.


if Chechnya falls then Dagestan (who the Chechens invaded in 1999), Ingushetia, and even places in more central like Tartarstan would demand independance. It could cause the Russian Federation to fall apart at the seems. Also bear in mind that the other regions of the USSR to get independance were infact SSRs (Soviet Republics eg Azerbaijan, Armenia, Latvia etc) Chechnya was/has been considered part of Russia since pre-Soviet times.

But Russia isn't an artifical country in its present state? Countries are (supposed to be) formed by groups of people living in a certain area, ie France is populated by the French, Spain by the Spanish, Ireland by the Irish. Russia contains countless ethnic minorities, it's unnatural for a country to exist like that. Sooner or later ethnic minorities are going to become a problem for Russia unless something is done to shift populations (like China moving Chinese people into Tibet to water down the ethnic population) or give minorities some sort of self-determination.

As for the tactics used by Chechen independence fighters, ye get nutcases all over the world. We Irish did worse to each other in the Civil War. It's sad fact of life that you'll get people like that in situations such as Chechnya. Al Qaeda will get involved if they see a 'market' for their brand of Islamic fundementalism, I think it's unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists.

To those who slated me there, especially you, 'thecorner', explain your objections, because I really don't get it.
Maybe I'm too young to understand it, but what's the difference between killing an adult and killing a child? A life's a life. An adult will be missed as much as a child. Granted, an adult has lived longer, but is that any reason to feel less bad about it?
Feck, you could look at it through the eyes of an insurance company. An insurance company will pay out more for the death of an adult than they will for a child. An adult earns the wages, a child doesn't. Adults cover their costs with their wages, whilst children take money from the household for a considerable period of time. To an insurance company the life of an adult is worth more than a child. Are people outraged at insurance companies?

At the end of the day, whether it's a child or an adult, it's still a life. The adults and children killed in Beslan were innocent and defenceless against guns and bombs.
Stating that it is particularly bad that so many children were killed is kind of sick really. It implies that, say, if an adult dies in a car crash that you'd have an attitude of "ah well, at least it wasn't a child". There's something seriously wrong with that. No-one has the right to declare that one person's life is worth less than anyone else's.
thecorner - you're 30, I'm 18. So is my life worth more than yours?

[Closed Account 2]

But Russia isn't an artifical country in its present state? Countries are (supposed to be) formed by groups of people living in a certain area, ie France is populated by the French, Spain by the Spanish, Ireland by the Irish. Russia contains countless ethnic minorities, it's unnatural for a country to exist like that.

Well couldn’t it be argued that Spain is populated by a variety of groups (eg Basques in the North, Galicians in the North West, Catalonians in Catalonia etc), in Italy there are German speaking minorities near the Adige, Belgium is made up of people from Flanders and Walloons (French speakers), how many different languages and ethnicities are spoken in India ? Are all these countries unnatural, if that’s the case then its very hard to suggest that many countries are natural. Take Britain for example, you’ve got the Welsh, Scots, and the two groups (so to speak) in Northern Ireland, so is it an unnatural country ? If so then perhaps England is unnatural too given there are clusters of different communities in various locations, eg us in areas in North West London, People from the subcontinent in various towns in North of England etc etc ... Its a bit of a dangerous example to claim Russia is an unnatural country ? What other countries are "unnatural" ? Australia, or given its variety of ethnicities the USA perhaps ?

Also what is your solution? That Russia should split up or give up its Southern Regions? If it does that then it’s almost certain that there would be a series of mini wars right across the region. I would also say with a high degree of certainty that areas like Chechnya would descend into even more anarchy and it would be highly likely that the country would become an Al-Qaeda client state.


As for the tactics used by Chechen independence fighters, ye get nutcases all over the world. We Irish did worse to each other in the Civil War. It's sad fact of life that you'll get people like that in situations such as Chechnya. Al Qaeda will get involved if they see a 'market' for their brand of Islamic fundamentalism, I think it's unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists.

See I think that their tactics are both qualitatively and quantitatively different from anything seen in the Civil War. There was a lot of unpleasantness in the Civil War, and there may well have been many executions but I don’t remember reading anything about habitual beheading, removing prisoners eyes etc which all seem to be common place in Chechnya. You may be right to say it’s unfair to judge the entire Chechen cause on the actions of extremists. But I feel that the leaders' (especially they way Baseeyev linked up with Khattab) solicitation of Al-Qaeda / Islamic fundamentalism was a dangerous and foolhardy decision. The international jihadis are akin to Nazis, everywhere they go they murder, rape and destroy just about anything they can (including civilians who are on their "own" side) and any regime or group who uses their services I will only have the utmost contempt for. The East Timorese, Tibetans, and even the Sudanese minorities in Darfur dont resort to calling in Barbarians when faced with regimes as bad as or worse than Putins, so why should the Chechens.

[brendy_éire]

Well couldn’t it be argued that Spain is populated by a variety of groups (eg Basques in the North, Galicians in the North West, Catalonians in Catalonia etc), in Italy there are German speaking minorities near the Adige, Belgium is made up of people from Flanders and Walloons (French speakers), how many different languages and ethnicities are spoken in India ? Are all these countries unnatural

For the most part, Spain is populated by the Spanish, although there's good arguments for independence for Galicia, the Basque region and Catalonia.
My point is that countries are formed by a people coming together. For example, the Italians are a recognisable people. They speak Italian, they share a culture, thus have their own country. Even before the creation of Italy, the Italian people were still aknowledged as existing. There are English people, Scottish, Welsh, French people. We recognise what it is to be French or English. We Irish recognise what we have in common, and it makes sense in our heads that we should be a country.
The US, Australia, Canada, etc are artificial countries. There's no such thing as an 'American'. There's no 'American people' as such (well, except the native Americans, but there's not many of them left nowadays). America is just a melting pot of different cultures, it's not a 'people'. For this reason, I believe American nationalism is entirely contrived.
Russia, in its present state, includes many enthic minorities, which in my view, is unnatural.


Also what is your solution? That Russia should split up or give up its Southern Regions?

It could give these regions independence, ensuring they have a working government.
Or, create a confederation of these states. A structure similar to that of the EU, where there is a central government, and the states have a good degree of power over their own affairs, exercised through their own parliaments. Allow the states to have fiscal power, and give them things like their own national football team and leagues. Giving peolpe a way of expressing their nationality can appease those demanding full independence, similiar to what is done in Scotland and Wales.


The East Timorese, Tibetans, and even the Sudanese minorities in Darfur dont resort to calling in Barbarians when faced with regimes as bad as or worse than Putins, so why should the Chechens.

Well to be fair, you can't blame the entire Chechen population for calling in the nutcases. I'd guess most Chechens feel like most nationalists in the north do. They want independence, but would rather not use violence to get it.

[BobbySands]

Brendy. Gotta say I agree. A life is a life. The deaths of these children is awful as are the deaths of the the american soldiers in Iraq. As are the deaths of the countless Iraqis. I hope no one tries to make political hay out of this tragedy although I'd assume GW Bush already has speechwriters trying to work out an angle.