Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[paul_oshea]

While I agree with you, it is usually small margins which win games. O'Shea is incapable of finding his own player when playing at full back but I think he is played for his height as is Ward. We are quite a small team (even StL isn't that tall) and in the absence of Dunne we will be very vulnerable in the air at set pieces, not exactly Coleman's strongest asset.

A back 4 of Wilson, O'Shea, StL, Coleman on the ground is better than O'S, StL, O'D, Ward but not in the air. Which margin do you go with?

The margin that is the most obvious one, the one that causes goals, and creates chances for the opposing team. Thats the system/the team/the model with Ward. Without ward you seriously limit those chances.

If people still can't see this, I don't know why they spend so much time posting on forums like this. You are wasting your time and will never see it. Cricket might be more your thing - and wards....

[Olé Olé]

Germany are probably the closest side in the world to Spain in terms of ability.

I find it questionable that people demand Coleman be included instead of O'Shea and Wilson instead of Ward. It's at best a like for like switch. A conservative full back (Wilson) for an offensive (Ward) and vice-versa (Coleman for O'Shea). At best, we are slightly better off than before; at worst, we are more vulnerable using players unfamiliar with the system.

Fair enough Ward pushes forward, but I'd argue his effect is minimal. Against Kazakhstan some of the balls he played to McGeady were terrible. I remember one stage McGeady showed for it, Ward hesitated and so McGeady pushed on for a ball over the top of the two opposing players. The ball didn't even skip the first player.

[AlaskaFox]

I see Trap has already started bigging up McCarthy and suggesting we might play a different system. He says the exact same things before every game with only the personnel changing. Big up a player and then not play him.

I don't think this is necessarily Trap's fault. At the press conferences, the journos will always ask Trap about the fringe players "Is there a chance McCarthy or McClean will play against Germany?" And then Trap replies that either "we can play McCarthy behind the striker or in midfield" or that "McClean needs more experience with the system". They don't ask "Hey Gio, how do you think Glenn Whelan will do against Germany?" so therefore there's no quotes about Whelan printed unless it's a "We watch Hoolahan, but we already have Whelan, Andrews, McCarthy, Fahey, who play in this position".

[Crosby87]

Stupid question probably but is Dunne definitely out?

[Charlie Darwin]

But is the system effective?
It's more effective than the alternatives right now, but sticking doggedly to it isn't going to improve us either. It probably reached the peak of its effectiveness in the Euro qualifiers.


Fair enough Ward pushes forward, but I'd argue his effect is minimal. Against Kazakhstan some of the balls he played to McGeady were terrible. I remember one stage McGeady showed for it, Ward hesitated and so McGeady pushed on for a ball over the top of the two opposing players. The ball didn't even skip the first player.
His effective is more than Kilbane ever offered. He's a good technical player but lacks a brain. He'll be replaced by a better player eventually but for now I think he's the best all-round option at LB.


Stupid question probably but is Dunne definitely out?
You'd get short odds. Trap says he'd need a club game before Germany. He could theoretically be fit for Villa's last game before the window but they'd probably rest him anyway just to ensure he doesn't go away and get injured with Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

It's more effective than the alternatives right now, but sticking doggedly to it isn't going to improve us either. It probably reached the peak of its effectiveness in the Euro qualifiers.

Maybe, maybe not. But even if we stick with the same shape I think having Wilson and Coleman at full backs would improve things, other things being equal. We were woeful at full back during the Euros and against Kazakhstan. Lacking in pace and mobility. I take the point about needing some height in the team but on balance I'd prefer to see those two start, with SSL and JOS at CB. Even if SSL isn't the tallest, he's a very good aerial ball winner.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not sure what people see in Wilson. I think he'd be every bit as villified as Ward given a run of games.

[geysir]

The margin that is the most obvious one, the one that causes goals, and creates chances for the opposing team. Thats the system/the team/the model with Ward. Without ward you seriously limit those chances.

If people still can't see this, I don't know why they spend so much time posting on forums like this. You are wasting your time and will never see it. Cricket might be more your thing - and wards....
You may well be seriously deluded to think that there would be such a difference to our game without Ward. You might even be so deluded as to think you know better than other folk here:)
But one things for sure, it was Ward's mistake which led to that goal for Oman.

On our back 4 for this game I'd go for Kelly, St Ledger, O'Shea and Wilson but I don't know what form Kelly is in these days. I thought Coleman was all over the pitch in the 2nd half against Oman, was he not supposed be at RB when Kelly went to LB?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Can someone please explain to me how a journeyman centre-back who is lucky to be playing with a run-of-the-mill MLS team is in the squad and a centre-back who is playing for a Premier League team will be clicking his heels at home?

And if Trap is so spiteful - then he should be sacked (actually he should be sacked anyway - he has brought the team as far as he can and it will be downhill from here on in).

[Crosby87]

So our back four is going to be Dick-less? Great.

[theworm2345]

I'm not sure what people see in Wilson. I think he'd be every bit as villified as Ward given a run of games.
Of course he would be...but so has every left back in the back 10 years.

[Paddy Garcia]

I'm not sure what people see in Wilson. I think he'd be every bit as villified as Ward given a run of games.

Key part of a tight and successful premiership defense?

[ArdeeBhoy]

We'll lose to Deutschland regardless (even if the likes of Given, Duff, Dunne were playing and at the top of their games.), so we just concentrate on sneaking a win in the Faroes and pray for a miracle in 2013.
Perhaps we should hope for some issue to force an early retirement...
:(
Sorry, Trap.

[OwlsFan]

Can someone please explain to me how a journeyman centre-back who is lucky to be playing with a run-of-the-mill MLS team is in the squad and a centre-back who is playing for a Premier League team will be clicking his heels at home?.

Because he has done reasonably well for us while the centre-back you mention playing in the Premier league was poor in the two games he played for us, albeit playing out of position and obviously didn't impress Trapp or those of us who remember the performances. I hope that answers your query.

[Bungle]

We'll lose to Deutschland regardless (even if the likes of Given, Duff, Dunne were playing and at the top of their games.), so we just concentrate on sneaking a win in the Faroes and pray for a miracle in 2013.
Perhaps we should hope for some issue to force an early retirement...
:(
Sorry, Trap.

I agree that we would be doing incredibly well to get even a point from them. I'm really worried about this game. I could picture a backs to the wall job in Germany and on a good day us nicking a draw, but in Dublin, I think they could cut through us like butter and beat us by two or three.

I predict us continually knocking high balls up to Keane and Doyler and the Germans comfortably dealing with them and the likes of Ozil running the show, with the Germans having 60-65% possession. I think we need to play a 5 man midfield to try and crowd the midfield and I would have Andrews back in there for the bite and hunger he brings to the table. He is also liable to have a crack at goal. McCarthy simply has to stay in the team. In an ideal world, I would have had Hoolahan as the attacking part of a three man central midfield, but Whelan will be there. I would start Long up front on his own, but would leave it open to somebody like Walters coming on for a two man attack, as I think he has the potential to be a game changer at times with his strength. I alo think he could complement Long.

Wilson is not the second coming of a world class Irwin type full back. However, he is a very decent young premiership player who could be a vital player for us in the next 10 years. Ward has alot to give in terms of endeavour and love of the green shirt, but he lacks quality and he has limited positional sense.

Clarke offers a huge ammount of hope for the future and it is incredible and inexcusable that he isn't even in the squad. However, I would not start him in such a big game, as I do have trust in the Saint. O'Shea has to be moved into the centre, but Trap is more likely to go with McShane or O'Dea (in fairness he's never let us down)

What I would have liked:

Westwood
Coleman O'Shea St Ledger Wilson
McGeady Andrews McCarthy McClean
Hoolahan
Long

[EAFC_rdfl]

Why are people still persisting with the wish for Hoolahan in the team? Of the 6 games Norwich have played in the league so far, he has appeared in 3, starting 1, with avg of 46 mins per game. If he's not good enough to be an automatic starter for a poor team like Norwich, what difference will he make to the Ireland team? Source. (http://www.thescore.com/epl/players/7323-wesley-hoolahan)

[PatJR]

I think, in fariness to Trap, two personnel changes (debutants at this level competitively) and a positional switch in the back four for such an important game could be called reckless. While I tend to agree about five in midfield your third man being Hoolahan completely wrecks this. That team lined out as 4-4-1-1 would be torn apart. You admit Wilson is not the second coming, well Hoolahan certainly isn't - I don't get the clammer for him, one of two clips playing for Norwich but he has not nailed down his place at Norwich. Anyway if Trap ever did go this way then that position is a problem area, I don't think we have a natural to play there. It's a difficult one.

I would like (though it's also fantasy land)
Westwood
O'Shea Sledge O'Dea Wilson
Whelan McCarthy
McLean Keane McGeady
Long

[ifk101]

Why are people still persisting with the wish for Hoolahan in the team? Of the 6 games Norwich have played in the league so far, he has appeared in 3, starting 1, with avg of 46 mins per game. If he's not good enough to be an automatic starter for a poor team like Norwich, what difference will he make to the Ireland team? Source. (http://www.thescore.com/epl/players/7323-wesley-hoolahan)

Norwich have a different manager this year so maybe he doesn't fit in with the new manager's plans. Doesn't make him "not good enough". Most would like to more creativity in our midfield hence why there are persistent calls for Hoolahan's inclusion as he is capable of passing the ball forward rather than the sideways, backwards, punt up-field play we currently excel in.

[DeLorean]

Why are people still persisting with the wish for Hoolahan in the team? Of the 6 games Norwich have played in the league so far, he has appeared in 3, starting 1, with avg of 46 mins per game. If he's not good enough to be an automatic starter for a poor team like Norwich, what difference will he make to the Ireland team? Source. (http://www.thescore.com/epl/players/7323-wesley-hoolahan)

Surprised to see he's 30. Would have thought about 27.

[Kingdom]

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=137&lang=E&cHash=70aa23fd96d40f07eb6835a1ea263fce

That's the German squad.
They're likely to pick Neuer, who acts like a sweeper at the best of times so the long aimless balls will get recycled far quicker, with less kick-outs. They are likely to play Lahm, Mertesacker, Hummels and Badstuber across the back. Mertesacker will win everything in the air, and Hummels will play the football. His selection on the flanks will be crucial. Badstuber isn't great going backwards, and I'd put McGeady on that side, but he's going to need a workhorse on the left otherwise Lahm will kill us.

Their midfield truly is jizz-worthy: Schweinsteiger, Ozil, Khedera, Gotze, Muller, Schurrle, Reus. It's fricking ridiculous, and interchangeable too.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Gotze and Reus on the flanks as they surely know we'll be susceptible to a bit of pace and trickery at the back? That would mean a pairing of Schweinsteiger (I think he's out injured though?) and probably Khedira with Ozil just in front and the two flyers out wide, and Klose up top.

I genuinely worry for us next weekend. I think we could be given a serious hiding. And I thought that before Euro 2012. It's not like Spain where you know they'll keep the ball in safe areas and tease you out; Germany will attack, attack and attack some more, safe in the knowledge we'll give the ball back to them time and again.

[jbyrne]

otherwise Lahm will kill us.


i think he is suspended for the game, or injured

[Yard of Pace]

Pretty sure Lahm is suspended alright. Thanks be to jaysus.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=137&lang=E&cHash=70aa23fd96d40f07eb6835a1ea263fce

That's the German squad.
They're likely to pick Neuer, who acts like a sweeper at the best of times so the long aimless balls will get recycled far quicker, with less kick-outs. They are likely to play Lahm, Mertesacker, Hummels and Badstuber across the back. Mertesacker will win everything in the air, and Hummels will play the football. His selection on the flanks will be crucial. Badstuber isn't great going backwards, and I'd put McGeady on that side, but he's going to need a workhorse on the left otherwise Lahm will kill us.

Their midfield truly is jizz-worthy: Schweinsteiger, Ozil, Khedera, Gotze, Muller, Schurrle, Reus. It's fricking ridiculous, and interchangeable too.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Gotze and Reus on the flanks as they surely know we'll be susceptible to a bit of pace and trickery at the back? That would mean a pairing of Schweinsteiger (I think he's out injured though?) and probably Khedira with Ozil just in front and the two flyers out wide, and Klose up top.

I genuinely worry for us next weekend. I think we could be given a serious hiding. And I thought that before Euro 2012. It's not like Spain where you know they'll keep the ball in safe areas and tease you out; Germany will attack, attack and attack some more, safe in the knowledge we'll give the ball back to them time and again.
Just because Mertesacker is tall, that doesn't mean he'll win everything in the air. I don't think it's one of his strengths - he's much more comfortable with the ball at his feet. Walters/Long/Doyle will give him plenty of trouble given the opportunity.

[Bungle]

Why are people still persisting with the wish for Hoolahan in the team? Of the 6 games Norwich have played in the league so far, he has appeared in 3, starting 1, with avg of 46 mins per game. If he's not good enough to be an automatic starter for a poor team like Norwich, what difference will he make to the Ireland team? Source. (http://www.thescore.com/epl/players/7323-wesley-hoolahan)

I lived in Norwich for a few years and from talking with old friends, the fans there adore him. They cannot fathom how he isn't in their team at all. They would consider him there best player. For me, he has shown that he is a good premiership player and that makes me want him in the Irish team, or at least in the squad.

[Bungle]

[QUOTE=PatJR;1631787]I think, in fariness to Trap, two personnel changes (debutants at this level competitively) and a positional switch in the back four for such an important game could be called reckless. While I tend to agree about five in midfield your third man being Hoolahan completely wrecks this. That team lined out as 4-4-1-1 would be torn apart. You admit Wilson is not the second coming, well Hoolahan certainly isn't - I don't get the clammer for him, one of two clips playing for Norwich but he has not nailed down his place at Norwich. Anyway if Trap ever did go this way then that position is a problem area, I don't think we have a natural to play there. It's a difficult one.

I understand your concerns and I agree that how I have the team lined up could be seen as wreckless in that the defence has little experience of playing together. My thoughts would be that O'Shea hasn't got the legs for full back anymore. He said so himself. However, his experience would be essential in the centre of defence for such a big game. I would feel that Coleman should play at full back for this game as he is playing very well for Everton, although I would concede that it is a massive step up for him and that the defensive aspects of his game still need to be finetuned. In Wilson's case, I would view him as being far superior to Ward. It is a step up for him, but I don't view his selection as being risky, as he is a decent player playing for a solid enough team in the Premiership. In the long-run, he can only improve as a player by coming up against teams like Germany and I would feel that unless a Denis Irwin comes along, he could be our full back for a very long time.

My thoughts on Hoolahan in a 5 man midfield would be that he brings a strong workrate to the table. He is also dynamic and good on the ball. We need to ensure that we aren't giving the ball away cheaply and he would not be easy for the Germans to deal with and I think he would link up very well with Long. However, I would concede that this has not been tested before and in such a big game against a world class team, it might not be the time to try it out.

[Crosby87]

What are everyones predictions?
Ill say Ireland 0-4 Deutschland
Ireland 2-1 Faroes

[OwlsFan]

Germany's form since Euro2012 hasn't been great and Bayern lost yesterday as well. Strangely, I think we have a better chance under Trapp of getting a result in the Vaterland than we do at Lansdowne Road but after all the negativity perhaps we might be able to scrape a 1-1 but it's the least optimistic (and I am seldom optimistic) I have been for a while going in to a home game. Trapp has had a long time to think about this one. I hope he comes up with something different but there is as much chance of that as Kirk from Coronation Street hosting University Challenge but as they say in Germany "vee vill see".

p.s. No matter what manager, team formation, players etc we had, I still wouldn't be any more optimistic.

[Murfinator]

Will be interesting to watch Reus tonight, I fear he's Germany's real form player and a guy itching to prove himself for his national team.

[Murfinator]

Germany's form since Euro2012 hasn't been great and Bayern lost yesterday as well.

They lost an away game after 7 straight wins....

[OwlsFan]

They lost an away game after 7 straight wins....

I am clutching at straws ;) Wednesday lost 6 in a row after 19 unbeaten.

[DannyInvincible]

Since the Euros, Germany have won their two competitive games against the Faroe Islands (3-0) and Austria (2-1). Other than that, they lost a friendly against Argentina (1-3) in August. Not really sure what that tells us about their current form; they've won when it really matters.

[BonnieShels]

Pretty sure Lahm is suspended alright. Thanks be to jaysus.

I know that it doesn't need to be said.

But isn't this guy just a wonderful player. A pleasure to watch every time I see him.

[Stuttgart88]

Kick-off time for Faroes - 7pm Irish time, yes?

[jbyrne]

think i heard that they are unbeaten away from home ever in a qualifier and only lost twice at home?
says it all about what faces us friday week

[Stuttgart88]

Northern Irealnd and England have beaten them at home. Are they the only teo?

They won all ten in last campaign.

[Murfinator]

think i heard that they are unbeaten away from home ever in a qualifier and only lost twice at home?
says it all about what faces us friday week

Honestly it doesn't bother me too much, Germany are a rare breed of being both a world class team and an incredibly consistent one. They've strength in depth only bettered by Spain, a few injuries or suspensions to absolutely anyone and they can be replaced. They were semi-finalists or finalists in the last 3 major tournaments, Bayern were champions league finalists last year and Dortmund could very well beat the champions of England tonight. No such thing as an impossible task but this is as close as it comes to it.

It wouldn't upset me to lose home and away to Germany because I think everyone else will too. I'd worry about their last game against Sweden when Germany will already be qualified but that's something out of our control. How we fare against Sweden and Austria will decide our qualification, very much doubt how anyone does against Germany will be a factor. Hope people stay calm if we ship a heavy defeat, so long as we get the 3 points of the Faroes we're still on track.

[Yard of Pace]

I know that it doesn't need to be said.

But isn't this guy just a wonderful player. A pleasure to watch every time I see him.

One of my favourite players of all time, for sure. The fact he resembles Terry Hall of the Specials is an added bonus.

[SkStu]

think i heard that they are unbeaten away from home ever in a qualifier and only lost twice at home?
says it all about what faces us friday week

Germany (or as their previous incarnation, West Germany) have NEVER lost a World Cup Qualifier away from home.

Germany (or as their previous incarnation, West Germany) have only ever lost 2 World Cup Qualifiers at home, 1-2 to Portugal in 1985 and 1-5 to England in 2001. Both times they still qualified for the tournament and for good measure reached the Final.

[Charlie Darwin]

That is some record. Steady Eddies the lot of them.

[SkStu]

Northern Irealnd and England have beaten them at home. Are they the only teo?

Northern Ireland was in Euros qualifying. England 5-1 was in the WC obviously as per my post above...

[Charlie Darwin]

A few of the German internationals we will expect to face are on show in Eastlands tonight, particularly Hummels at centre back. Goetze found space to force a super save from Joe Hart. Dortmund are currently tearing strips out of the City midfield. It sounds like they've brought a massive support too, as you'd expect from the best-supported team in Europe.

[Charlie Darwin]

Hummels limped off with the game in the balance - dare we dream?

[tricky_colour]

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=137&lang=E&cHash=70aa23fd96d40f07eb6835a1ea263fce

That's the German squad.
They're likely to pick Neuer, who acts like a sweeper at the best of times so the long aimless balls will get recycled far quicker, with less kick-outs. They are likely to play Lahm, Mertesacker, Hummels and Badstuber across the back. Mertesacker will win everything in the air, and Hummels will play the football. His selection on the flanks will be crucial. Badstuber isn't great going backwards, and I'd put McGeady on that side, but he's going to need a workhorse on the left otherwise Lahm will kill us.

Their midfield truly is jizz-worthy: Schweinsteiger, Ozil, Khedera, Gotze, Muller, Schurrle, Reus. It's fricking ridiculous, and interchangeable too.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Gotze and Reus on the flanks as they surely know we'll be susceptible to a bit of pace and trickery at the back? That would mean a pairing of Schweinsteiger (I think he's out injured though?) and probably Khedira with Ozil just in front and the two flyers out wide, and Klose up top.

I genuinely worry for us next weekend. I think we could be given a serious hiding. And I thought that before Euro 2012. It's not like Spain where you know they'll keep the ball in safe areas and tease you out; Germany will attack, attack and attack some more, safe in the knowledge we'll give the ball back to them time and again.

I see currently Man City at home are being beaten 1-0 buy Borussia Dortmund who include Schweinsteiger,and Gotze although the line up suggest as fullback and forward respectively.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19725428
Would Ireland beat Man City at home? I doubt it.

Oh and I note ( from prior posters) they also have Hummels.
Still we are a better side than Man City ;)

[geysir]

I see currently Man City at home are being beaten 1-0 buy Borussia Dortmund who include Schweinsteiger,and Gotze although the line up suggest as fullback and forward respectively.
An edit is in order there.

[tricky_colour]

An edit is in order there.

Yes:-

I see currently Man City at home are being beaten 1-0. Buy Borussia Dortmund they are a good club, who include Schweinsteiger,and Gotze although the line up suggest as fullback and forward respectively.

[Charlie Darwin]

Schweinsteiger plays for Bayern.

[CraftyToePoke]

Schweinsteiger

Does anyone know what this translates as? The 'stieger' bit ... I heard recently but laughed so much it wasn't good for me. Then forgot.

[Charlie Darwin]

Somebody cleared this up on here a while ago actually. I thought it was 'pig stepper' but literally it means 'pig foreman' - presumably some sort of pig farmer.

You probably heard that it meant 'pig mounter'?

[Crosby87]

Pig Foreman haha. The chief of police? ;)

[theworm2345]

Does anyone know what this translates as? The 'stieger' bit ... I heard recently but laughed so much it wasn't good for me. Then forgot.


Somebody cleared this up on here a while ago actually. I thought it was 'pig stepper' but literally it means 'pig foreman' - presumably some sort of pig farmer.

You probably heard that it meant 'pig mounter'?
German is similar to English. Obviously schwein = pig. Steiger must be a variation of the German word steig which according to Google Translate means sidewalk.

EDIT: More here: http://www.houseofnames.com/steiger-family-crest