Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Stuttgart88]

Very articulate Ireland fan from UK just got a few mins on the 606 show just now. He had been on calmly calling for Trap to go after the Kazakhstan game and Greene disagreed. Greene couldn't disagree now though.

[the bear]

Yes, I agree that when all you do is play behind the ball it's academic what nominal shape you line up in. But you'd hope that we do a bit more than that against the Faroes.

But thats the thing, we won't. We will just try and plod through like we normally do. We will get get more opportunities because the Faroes won't be as good at retaining the ball as the Germans, but our game will remain the same stale old muck. We'll blunder a goal from a corner and Trap will say we got 3 points and thats all that matters and we'll move on to the next match without learning anything or improving

[Stuttgart88]

Trap won't walk and I don't think the FAI can afford to push him. So we are probably stuck with this muck for a while more.They FAI could really be looking at 20k or less for the remaining home games (maybe 25-30k for Swden & Austria) and the upcoming friendlies. A new manager and a sense of a new journey starting would put more bums on seats. The FAI should factor that into the financial equation.

[tricky_colour]

I didn't thinking we sat off them that much, not like against Spain where we had our tents on the 18 yard line.
Germany only had a small territoriality advantage, about 56% IIRC, but I think the Germans lured us out somewhat
(the alternative is we forced them back ~unlikely?), we were also caught on the break a few times IIRC.

[Stuttgart88]

Oh stuff the stats and follow your eyes. We stood off them even at 5 nil down. They probed and probed and probed and scored, and scored and scored. We couldnt get on the ball and when we did we couldnt keep it.

The second goal was a counter, but that was all as far as I can recall.

The first ten mins were OK - a duffed McGeady free and a couple of corners - but after that I can think of a skewed Andrews shot in the first half, Cox's deflected effort in the second and Keogh's two chances. Other than that any possession we had in their half was very poor quality.

[shakermaker1982]

Difficult to pick a side for Tuesday night after so many woeful performances. Anybody expecting some changes or will he be loyal to the players?

[the bear]

They FAI could really be looking at 20k or less for the remaining home games (maybe 25-30k for Swden & Austria) and the upcoming friendlies. A new manager and a sense of a new journey starting would put more bums on seats. The FAI should factor that into the financial equation.

Fair point. There is no alternative regardless of tuesdays result in my opinion


I didn't thinking we sat off them that much, not like against Spain where we had our tents on the 18 yard line.
Germany only had a small territoriality advantage, about 56% IIRC, but I think the Germans lured us out somewhat
(the alternative is we forced them back ~unlikely?), we were also caught on the break a few times IIRC.

It seemed to me watching that individual players were not closing down their opposing number on friday. The game is very easy when you have space and time so I think it is crazy to be giving this kind of luxury to any oppositio. We do it constantly and are punished varyingly depending on opposition strength. Its basicaly a come and have a go if you think your hard enough attitude. Technical teams will slice through you. Now we most likely would of lost to Germany anyway but why make it easy for them

[TrapAPony]

Difficult to pick a side for Tuesday night after so many woeful performances. Anybody expecting some changes or will he be loyal to the players?

Westwood
Kelly
O'Shea
Clark
Wilson
Coleman
McCarthy
Andrews
McGeady
Walters
Keane

[Charlie Darwin]

The Kenny Cunningham/Kevin Kilbane interview on Newstalk. Some very revealing stuff from Kilbane on what is going with the team. Apparently Trapatonni says nothing in the dressing room at half time. Not a word. The senior players do all the talking.
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/cunningham-on-trapattoni-634459-Oct2012/
I think what he was saying is that Trap says very little and leaves the talk to the senior players, not that he is completely silent.



It makes no difference what formation you line up in when you can't keep the ball or get close to the opposition when they have it.
We kept the ball better than we usually do when we were playing 451, and we created some patient openings that simply would be possible with our old formation. Annoyingly, Fahey had just engineered one such opening for Ward down the left moments before Trap gave him the hook.

[geysir]

I'd go along with Stutt's economic evaluation. Realistically the qual campaign is doomed and there's nothing worse than a couple of dead rubber games with sparse crowds, never mind a team being managed by a dead man walking. There's a very decent chance with another manager to at least have it alive to the last game, that feat alone would recoup the cost of evicting Trap.
Actually, it isn't the cost of evicting Trap, it's the cost of hiring a new manager that's the issue.

[Diarmo]

It was more of a success than the 442 we switched to then swiftly conceded three goals in ten minutes.


Why? It'd be another game to get to grips with the new formation and it's not like it's impossible to attack.

Point taken. I'd lean for 4-4-2 as I feel we need to score early to avoid nerves.

[Sullivinho]

Difficult to pick a side for Tuesday night after so many woeful performances. Anybody expecting some changes or will he be loyal to the players?

I'm sure he's said there will definitely be changes. Andy Keogh's been ruled out after a bang on the head so substitution time is now excitingly shrouded in mystery.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd go along with Stutt's economic evaluation. Realistically the qual campaign is doomed and there's nothing worse than a couple of dead rubber games with sparse crowds, never mind a team being managed by a dead man walking. There's a very decent chance with another manager to at least have it alive to the last game, that feat alone would recoup the cost of evicting Trap.
Actually, it isn't the cost of evicting Trap, it's the cost of hiring a new manager that's the issue.

I don't think the campaign is any more doomed than if we had lost 1-0. We all knew that Germany would coast this group and that it was all to play for for second - with Sweden favourites on merit and also because they play Germany after Germany will have qualified. My point was more that the crowds are more likely to come if it was still all to play for AND there was some chance of entertainment. There might even be a new-manager-bounce for the two friendlies - a new beginning, new hope, the right players...

Even I, a paid-up season ticket holder with a good track record of going home for the home games, thought that I'm better off watching this mullarkey on TV from now on, avoiding the expense, the airports, having to take holidays, having to be away from my family, all that. I'll still probably do so out of blind loyalty, but not in any expectation that the games are worth watching. We don't compete under Trap. We play tedious anti-football. I was OK with this as long as it got results but that bit no longer holds. If someone like me has had enough of rubbish home games (Cyprus, Montenegro, Russia, Slovakia, Bulgaria...) I can only think there are thousands of others not within an easy trip of the Aviva who'd be happier watching on TV. Many voted with their feet a couple of years back. I've a decent job but if the economic decision was more marginal I think I know what I'd decide.

With Trap's excellent record in tricky away qualifiers maybe the right thing is to fire him on Wednesday!

[geysir]

It's not losing to Germany at home that's the portent of qualification hopes doom, it's the extreme unlikelihood of having anything better to play for, than 4th place with Trap. And that becomes more and more a certainty as each game is played. What did us okay in the last 2 campaigns, no longer applies.

What are the chances of hearing this on Tuesday evening "the Faroes are a handful for anybody in october"?

[pineapple stu]

I don't think the campaign is any more doomed than if we had lost 1-0.
I dunno. My concern is that our system is so limited that teams have just figured it out. Spain, Italy and Croatia were all good teams obviously and could well have beaten us regardless, but they tore us apart. Russia did it twice. Now Germany have done it. Other, smaller, countries have outplayed us and either we got lucky or they just weren't good enough to capitalise. Either way, there's a growing wealth of evidence on how to beat our system. I think Sweden will be well set up to beat us in March, and potentially Austria too. I'd worry that the more we play like this, the more likely it is that we'll be easily dispatched.

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't think the campaign is any more doomed than if we had lost 1-0.

Goal difference?

[MeathDrog]

Goal difference?

Head to head.

[bennocelt]

I really am tired of this myth. If it was what the players decided to do themselves, why have they not replicated it since?

But its not a myth, its well reported that the players came together to discuss a change of playing

[tricky_colour]

Goal difference?

Think it is normally the result between the tied teams which is the first consideration.
So it's a relatively minor issue, ie in our own hand (unfortunately :P)

[mark12345]

I dunno. My concern is that our system is so limited that teams have just figured it out.

I am so bloody tired of hearing about the system. What effing system? Is it the same one that keeps creativity like that Wes Hoolahan and Andy Reid possess, out of the team? If that was the system on Friday night I'd rather see organized chaos.

[Grafter]

So what's the best result now on Tuesday for Ger-Swe? Let Germany obliterate the others as well and hope we cop the hell on against the Faroes and the rest???

[Noelys Guitar]

But its not a myth, its well reported that the players came together to discuss a change of playing
You are correct Bennocelt and here is the proof. Kilbane from the Saturday interview on Newstalk.
Kilbane also revealed that during his time playing for Ireland under Trap, it was often the senior players rather than the manager who were most vocal before, during and after the games.
“The onus has been on the experienced players – they’ve been the main voices in the dressing room at half-time.
“They’re looking at the manager and he’s saying nothing – that doesn’t inspire confidence.”

[elroy]

So what's the best result now on Tuesday for Ger-Swe? Let Germany obliterate the others as well and hope we cop the hell on against the Faroes and the rest???

Yip. Whatever delusions we may have had about challenging Germany are long long gone now. Best chance is second. So we need to Germany to take maximum points off everyone else. We must win on Tuesday.

As for the system, I agree with many above that we no longer have a functioning system. We did for a while and Trap did bring back much need structure after the Stan days. Im not sure if its a case that teams have figured it out or that the system no longer works but we are a shambles now and last Friday imo was the most disjointed thus far.

I dont see Trap leaving nor the FAI sacking him before the campaign end. And no matter how bad the circumstances are, I always want Ireland to win. To do that on Tuesday is going to be far from easy. I think he needs to make a number of changes from Friday night. He should also focus on dominating possession and therefore growing the confidence of the team which is bound to be really low. In this regard, I would be inclined to again adopt a 4-5-1 set up the main aim of which is to maintain and dominate possession (can you rememeber the last game we did that?!!). I would be happy with this team:

WW
Kelly, Clark, O'Shea, Ward
Coleman, McCarthy, Andrews, McGeady
Keane,
Walters

[elroy]

You are correct Bennocelt and here is the proof. Kilbane from the Saturday interview on Newstalk.
Kilbane also revealed that during his time playing for Ireland under Trap, it was often the senior players rather than the manager who were most vocal before, during and after the games.
“The onus has been on the experienced players – they’ve been the main voices in the dressing room at half-time.
“They’re looking at the manager and he’s saying nothing – that doesn’t inspire confidence.”

This is very worrying, particularly now with the loss of so many senior players. For example, who wouldve stepped up to speak on Friday night? Keane perhaps, maybe Andrews but couldnt see the likes of McGeady etc. Shocking if this is the leadership Trap shows his players.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I imagine it would be very hard for Trap to fulfill the role of being "vocal" before and during matches given his level of English.

[CraftyToePoke]

I don't think the campaign is any more doomed than if we had lost 1-0.

Technically only, perhaps, but the manner and margin of what they did to us the other night could doom us far beyond this campaign. I hope we see the changes needed so it doesn't.

[Grafter]

I think Trap will be gone by the end of the month... regardless of the money implications to FAI... as a Nation we just don't do loveless marriages anymore!
Trap was a cute whore though the way he played the contract game with FAI before Euros... and naturally the FAI played into it! The writing was on the wall in the home games against Slovakia, Armenia and even dare I say Estonia at the Aviva last November.

It's over, get a win in Torshavan on Tues and then he's gone by hook or by crook... Irish football history will ultimately be kind to him if that happens...

[elroy]

Apparently Mick Mc walked away from the job without seeking any pay off. You might recall he also got an extension (rightly so imo) before the 2002 WC.

If thats true, he deserves alot of credit for it.

Cant see Trap leaving with such grace. Stuttgart had to sack him, we would need to do the same.

[Crosby87]

The german match was meaningless.

[SkStu]

Stu, Would agree with most of your last comment, but I think McCarthy is the man to replace Trap if he ever stands down. He is able to get the best out of his players and after Jack, he worked hard to rebuild the team and was quite successful. The reason I think he is a good choice is because he has actually done it before and since he stepped down as Irish manager, it could be argued that we have struggled, manager wise. What I am saying is, we need an experienced proven manager now, rather than someone who may struggle with the job

Just to be clear, I think McCarthy could do well on merits but he is just too divisive and carries the baggage that we just don't need.

I think Trap is tactically inept/irrelevant, demeaning to Irish players and lazy but i also think we need to acknowledge as a nation that football in Ireland is rotten to the core and we are slipping downwards regardless of Traps ability or lack thereof. If we want sustainable, long term success we must make the difficult decisions NOW and suffer in silence for the next 20 or so years and hope to stay around 3rd or 4th seeds until we consistently breed top talent in our own way. Are we willing to do this?

[pineapple stu]

The german match was meaningless.
Are you for real?!

[Stuttgart88]

Goal difference?


Head to head.

According to Emmet Malone in today's IT it's actually goal difference in the first instance (a change from recent seasons). Has anyone seen the qualification rules?

[AlaskaFox]

According to Emmet Malone in today's IT it's actually goal difference in the first instance (a change from recent seasons). Has anyone seen the qualification rules?


Emmet is right:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/47/38/17/regulationsfwcbrazil2014_en.pdf (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/47/38/17/regulationsfwcbrazil2014_en.pdf)
Section 18 - page 27 of the PDF

[paul_oshea]

I think everyone has missed the point here bar pineapple stu. A year or so ago, a few on here pointed out after the russia game, that we were very lucky and that eventually, this luck would run out and things would come back to haunt us. The inexperienced and naive posters on here just downplayed and did the usual deflection, with little to back up the argument about results speak for themselves and that's all that matters. Its such a naive perspective, the performances inherently matter cos they dictate the results - over a period of time. So what has happened over the last 6 months? The prediction was slightly wrong, teams have adapted to our game. I remember explicitly saying that if teams started to shoot from distance more often, then we would be undone. Alonso said as much in the Spain game, but they didn't actually need to do that. Other teams have figured us out, we stand off far too much and give way too much room based on Traps "system". If a team shoots from distance, which they can easily do because we give them plenty of time and room and sit back, Germany scored 2/3 goals from this on Friday, or if not they just played over the top of us, which again is another effective way of undoing our system. This was always going to happen, it was just a matter of time before teams figured it out and/or were capable of executing that game plan. We have come up against some decent teams in the last 6 months, all capable of doing so. I even think kazakhstan and other teams could have done this to us if they were smarter. We give so much time on the ball that if an average team shot from distance more often they would probably score 1, maybe 2 goals. It really is that simple to beat us. Trap has reaped what he sows, and his chickens have finally come home to roost.

Someone else on here said it wouldn't have mattered who we played in defence if ward or o'dea were not there, of course it would have bloody mattered, because they were directly responsible for some of the goals. Whoever thought ward was good friday was watching a different game to the rest of us in the stadium. He wasn't the worst because O'dea(there is a reason he is playing for toronto) was actually awful, but with Clark - yes Clark - in there and Wilson we would not have conceded as many goals.

I don't think there is much point in going on about individual players, other than to say I knew playing coleman was a bad move, he played well going forward but was poor positionally at the back, couple with Mcgeady offering absolutely no cover made his job 10 times worse. Had we started with wilson/o'shea/clark/kelly i honestly believe we wouldn't have been beaten so badly.

One thing is for certain though, this system of holding off and giving players time to shoot from distance, or those good enough to play in behind us/through us, was never effective, but our luck has run out, it needs to change, if Trap won't/can't do that then he needs to go.

We have 5 months till the next qualifiers after Faroes. We must hope that players like Clark will have come on leaps and bounds by then and hopefully brady and a few others get game time, and that coleman shores up his defensive game, because his composure and touch is technically excellent, and that whoever is managing us picks the form players and plays the system we are most capable of playing given our resources. I don't really think Trap will do that, but i fear the disruption might cause, because i believe we still have a chance of qualifying. I really hope Germany go all out and aren't happy to come away with a draw from stockholm.

I've said this before on here as well, but the average fan on the street/at the games, have very different views to most of the posters on here.

[ifk101]

The tactics on Friday night we're about containing the Germans. Bar a few brief moments at the start of the first half and the start of the second half we didn't offer any creative threat. When we got possession we just launched it aimlessly forward and retreated into our positions. It really is of little significance what team we played when our tactics consist of giving the opposition the ball and sitting back. Playing this way is mentally and physically draining. Individual mistakes are inevitable. Once the first goal went in, it was goodnight. There was no plan B, we were no longer playing for the 0-0 result, there was nothing holding the team together to prevent the second half collapse we saw.

[Closed Account 2]

A very bad result and a pretty hopless performance. The worst competitive performance since the 5-2 defeat in Nicosia and the worst home performance since the 4-0 defeat to the Dutch after WC 2006. The sad thing is for the first 20 mins we weren't that bad - we were almost average, but when we had a bit of pressure the wheels well and truely came off. It's worth saying that Germany are probably the best team in the world now, but to lose 6-1 at home is woeful. Yes, the Germans are man for man much better than us, and yes most people were probably expecting a defeat by a couple of goals, but this is a German team that only beat the Faeroes 3-0 in Hannover and the Austrians 2-1 in Vienna.

As I see it the team's main problem (relative to all the teams in the group bar Germany) is going to be confidence. The players seem to have zero belief in themselves and it's evident in the inability to play at all well against techincally better teams (Germany, Croatia, Italy, the Spanish). If this lack of confidence manifests itself in an inability to beat lesser teams (and that seemed to very nearly happen in Kazakhstan) then we are doomed. Man for man I dont think we are significantly worse than the Austrians or the Swedes, and 3-4 years ago I would have fancied us to take 4 from 6 against both of those teams. Aside from Germany there really isnt that much quality in this group at all and as bad as we are now we have a reasonable chance of sneaking into second place.

[tricky_colour]

According to Emmet Malone in today's IT it's actually goal difference in the first instance (a change from recent seasons). Has anyone seen the qualification rules?

That's not good news for us at all now is it, I wonder if they were aware of the rule change, I certainly was not.
There is a good chance we will be level on points or have to make decisions based on the fact we might be.

[Murfinator]

Thinking about it, if we were offered the stat that Germany would get 8 shots on target against us before the game would we have taken it? It's not a particularly huge number of openings and you have to hand it to Germany for their downright obscene accuracy, to score 6 and for the Keeper to not be at fault for any of them because the shots were that damn brilliant is incredible.

What really grated was our players body language in the second half with no heart, no passion or providing any sort of resistance. Very unlike us and it would seem most of our young to mid-age players are very passive without any strong characters, leadership, drive or determination. That's something that quite worries me.
We had a similar embarrassing defeat against Cyprus a few years ago and responded days later with a lot of energy and aggression against the Czechs to save face. Guys like Carsley, Kilbane, Keane, Duff and Andy Reid were big for us that day but I really don't think our current crop can bring that, it's vital that Keane is fit again.

[pineapple stu]

How many stupid stats have been quoted on this thread?

Bloody Sky Sports have a lot to answer for.

[tetsujin1979]

But its not a myth, its well reported that the players came together to discuss a change of playing
then why have they not done it again since, and if they did do it, then the performances since then have been the player's fault, not the managers

[BonnieShels]

I've said this before on here as well, but the average fan on the street/at the games, have very different views to most of the posters on here.

Agree with your post 100%.

But the above confuses me?

I can't talk to the average fan on the street due to it usually being "Metro" chat and when I'm at games I'm surrounded by the boo boys brigade?
Is that the inference or are the posters on here the clueless naive ones?

[BonnieShels]

How many stupid stats have been quoted on this thread?

Bloody Sky Sports have a lot to answer for.

And TC and Tets! Where do you think Sky Sports get their stats? :)

[pineapple stu]

I'm going to bite - what on earth is "Bæmarkaði-Sviði á Smiðar"?! Googling it just throws up this thread.

If you're in the Faroes, I'm going to have to punch you.

[tetsujin1979]

I'm going to bite - what on earth is "Bæmarkaði-Sviði á Smiðar"?! Googling it just throws up this thread.

If you're in the Faroes, I'm going to have to punch you.google translate gives the second part as Icelandic for "burning construction"
not sure I want to know what the rest of it means now

[osarusan]

then why have they not done it again since, and if they did do it, then the performances since then have been the player's fault, not the managers

Can't you ask the question in reverse too though - if it was Trap's doing in Paris, then why hasn't he done it again since, and then the performances since have been the manager's fault, and not the players'.

[BonnieShels]

I'm going to bite - what on earth is "Bæmarkaði-Sviði á Smiðar"?! Googling it just throws up this thread.

If you're in the Faroes, I'm going to have to punch you.

Nope. I'm not. It's a really bad Icelandic translation of where I live given the Norse provenance of the area.

When I lived in Stoneybatter/Oxmantown I had "Austmennstad" there.

In Lucan, it was Elm Place.

And now I live in Smithfield Which gives "Sviði á Smiðar" or "Field of Smiths" or from it's Irish translation of "Margadh na Feirme" or "Farm Market" you get "Bæmarkaði"

But if Geysir wants to correct it or improve it I am more than happy!

[tetsujin1979]

Can't you ask the question in reverse too though - if it was Trap's doing in Paris, then why hasn't he done it again since, and then the performances since have been the manager's fault, and not the players'.I'd agree with that, my point is that that whole "players taking over the dressing room at half time" in that game is a myth

[osarusan]

my point is that that whole "players taking over the dressing room at half time" in that game is a myth
So you do think that it was Trap's doing in Paris, and then the performances since have been the manager's fault, and not the players'?

[Charlie Darwin]

So you do think that it was Trap's doing in Paris, and then the performances since have been the manager's fault, and not the players'?
I think it's the only game where they actually played the system properly and took responsibility for the ball.

[ifk101]

We did play well in Paris but we know now the French were in a terrible mess.