Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Diarmo]

How about a much better cut off point, that being that we don't accept more than a couple of sub standard performances. We have players in the team who could practically sit down on a deck chair and read the paper, and still get picked for the next game. O'Shea, Ward, Kilbane before him, Whelan and Andrews (I know Andrews is a favorite with some because of his aggression but his ability as a midfielder is rank). So we reaped what we sowed last night. Allowing mediocrity to prevail in the team for too long. In the end, it's all about coaching and we appear to have no decent coaches in Ireland.

Good point. Who was the last Irish-born manager to make a decent career abroad? Roy Keane not included.

[elroy]

Aside from all the "look I told ye Trap is crazy" triumphalism that some are portraying, the real debate is where do we go from here!??
Financially the FAI cant get rid of Trap. His record is reasonable although after yesterday it is extremely hard to defend the shambolic (although major tournament included) last 6 months. IMO the real concern of Traps era has been our possession statistics. Until latterly, we have looked very organised under trap but it was only in the early days with him that we commanded a midfield presence. The likelihood is the Faroes will command greater possession on Tuesday than us, yes its true.

So the question I ask everyone here now is:

What would you do with current resources to ensure more effective midfield performances from the team? Im not really talking personnel changes here, as so far it doesnt seem to make a difference. And people will throw out the usual Hoolahan, Pilkington, Ireland etc same as a few years ago when it was Andy Reid. We as a footballing nation seem to think our messiah is the one or two players who are excluded. Until they are included and then it doesnt work out so well. Remember last night Coleman and McCarthy played, two players who many were calling for to be included months ago (perhaps with some merit).

Im talking real specific tactical changes. The greatest deficiency in this team is confidence on and retention of the ball. Many times last night our defenders had the ball and frankly they looked petrified in possesion.

[gastric]

Good point. Who was the last Irish-born manager to make a decent career abroad? Roy Keane not included.

Martin O 'Neill!

[tricky_colour]

Good point. Who was the last Irish-born manager to make a decent career abroad? Roy Keane not included.


Louis Walsh?

And actually why not?

You don't need to be a footballer to be a manager or indeed know anything about football.

If he can take a bunch of eegits like Boyzone to the top he can get us to Brazil!!

[theworm2345]

Good point. Who was the last Irish-born manager to make a decent career abroad? Roy Keane not included.
Pat Walker

[bennocelt]

Informed and insightful, thanks a lot for your contribution.

Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that:D

[nigel-harps1954]

I actually fear for us against Faroes.

[Diarmo]

Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that:D

I disagree. For me, the positives certainly outweighed the negatives in the WC 2010 campaign. We nearly beat Italy at home, and then of course there was Paris.
In the Euro 2012 Qualifying, there were more negatives, but once again the positives outweighed the negatives as we qualified at last.
Since the Euros however, there have been no positives. None.
I think that Trap was what we needed for the last campaign or two, but that now it's time to say goodbye. We need a coach who can instill some form of tactical plan that is not based on hoofball, that can communicate with our players.
So what if we don't qualify for Brazil? A team of younger players would at least provide hope.
And with Trap, there is no hope. It finally died with Toni Kroos' second goal.

[tricky_colour]

I think you have to remember that that it is the clubs style of play which tends to dictate how players play,
how many players do we have that play anything other than what could loosely be describe as 'hoofball'.
Only one I can think of is Hoolahan.

Who was it who first said, "You can change the shepherd, but you can't get rid of the donkeys" :p

Probably me I guess. I mean I think we have tried to change our style of play to move away from hoofball somewhat
but look at the results, maybe you can change I don't know, Liverpool have tried to change their style of play
and the results have been somewhat unimpressive, It took them six week to get a win, who know how long till they
get the next one? Maybe they have turned the corner and finally adapted, or maybe they will be looking over their shoulders
at relegation?

To finish on a positive, I think we have turned the corner too, in the last 6 minutes when we brought Robbie Brady, on.

Remember we actually won the last 6 minutes!!!

Never forget that ;)

[peadar1987]

Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that:D

Because the situation has changed. Players have retired. John O'Shea has died and just not realised it yet. Confidence is low. Trap was the right man for the job when he was appointed (although I think the money could have been better spent on a cheaper manager and investment in grassroots and the LOI). Now, perhaps he isn't so suitable. To say he was rubbish from day one is, in my opinion, getting a bit hysterical. The shambles on Friday night doesn't change the fact that he took a very mediocre team to two playoffs and a continental finals they didn't have any right to be at on paper.

[SkStu]

He achieved results from day 1 Peadar but in a very wrong way. A way that eliminated playing even a semblance of football, founded on a mistaken belief that "Irish players cant pass", largely ignored youth and form players, ignored our creative players, and was rooted in a flawed and dated philosophy. We need a manager that fundamentally believes we have good players and asks and encourages them to play. While Mick Mc mightn't be the answer, he's the last manager that did this and incorporated tactical discipline as part of that.

Say what you like Trapaholics, we've had far worse players and teams in our history that would never have produced what we did against the Gerries on Friday. Ignoring the fundamental problems where blame must lie with the FAI "vision" for our player development, Friday was not good enough in any way. Trap has got to go. Ignorant, lazy, dinosaur.

[gastric]

Brian Kerr's thoughts.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1013/1224325226512.html

Stu, Would agree with most of your last comment, but I think McCarthy is the man to replace Trap if he ever stands down. He is able to get the best out of his players and after Jack, he worked hard to rebuild the team and was quite successful. The reason I think he is a good choice is because he has actually done it before and since he stepped down as Irish manager, it could be argued that we have struggled, manager wise. What I am saying is, we need an experienced proven manager now, rather than someone who may struggle with the job

[shaneker]

Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that:D
Bizarre way to think, if you ask me. Teams change, the wider game changes and circumstances are not the same as they were in the past. Qualifying was crucial for us, and the results (although achieved in a desperately basic way) allowed us to do that. However, the team is evolving and Trap's system is getting further and further behind the rest of Europe. That combined with a record home defeat means that, for me, a change needs to be made now, or soon.
Also, coming out with nonsense like 'muck footy for the ole oles' or whatever makes any valid argument you might have sound fairly childish.

[geysir]

Worth noting that even when we beat Oman 4-1 they had 56% of the possession.

But we strung together a record breaking 400 passes :)

[geysir]

Unusual that McGeady is so verbose, what it does say is that he has no belief in what's happening and every cell of his body expressed it on Friday night.

"A couple of years ago, we might have been able to get something out of this game," he said. "We played against Italy, France and teams like that [in Trapattoni's previous campaigns] and we always did OK. What's different? Possibly the way we play, I don't know … It's difficult to say but I just know there is a difference. Just look at the results. A couple of years ago, we were unbeaten in a good few games. We were playing some of the top teams and we were drawing or almost sneaking wins. Against Germany, we just got put to the sword.
"Maybe something has got to change in the way we play … possibly putting more onus on us having the ball, instead of playing for flick-ons and second balls. We changed to 4-3-3 against Germany but we never really had the ball and when we did, it was two, three passes and then going long. It doesn't really suit how that system is supposed to work."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/13/republic-ireland-faroe-islands

[bennocelt]

Because the situation has changed. Players have retired. John O'Shea has died and just not realised it yet. Confidence is low. Trap was the right man for the job when he was appointed (although I think the money could have been better spent on a cheaper manager and investment in grassroots and the LOI). Now, perhaps he isn't so suitable. To say he was rubbish from day one is, in my opinion, getting a bit hysterical. The shambles on Friday night doesn't change the fact that he took a very mediocre team to two playoffs and a continental finals they didn't have any right to be at on paper.


Not performances. The style of play has been like that from day one. The only good performance - the Paris job - was what the players decided to do themselves. And as for the Euros, anyone would have got us to that finals - beating he likes of Slovakia, Estonia and Armenia - wow. Fact we haven beaten a top 16 team in ages says a lot. And remember even Stanton got a better result against the Germans:o

[pineapple stu]

We've had the Genesis report which was largely ignored
And rightly so, cos it was utter tripe.

It's hard to know what will happen in the next, say, ten years to change things. Someone earlier said that this is what like being a Scotland fan is; I think we're going to go the way of Wales.

The Premiership is a technically poor league, but can compensate by being financially rich enough to attract players to keep its profile up. I think Germany and Spain have something like 100 times the top-level coaches that England does.

The situation in Ireland I think is improving; there's more ex-LoI players in the squad than in the past 30 or 40 years I think. The likes of Paul Corry, Wes Hoolahan, Gary Dicker and a few others are maybe more capable technically than anyone in our squad at the moment (though being technically adept isn't worth a call-up in and of itself). With a proper fully-pro League of Ireland, we'd have control over our own players and their coaching, and with a similar set-up to the likes of Denmark or Sweden, there's no reason we'd not be able to get to their level. Instead, the FAI are bleeding the LoI instead of nurturing it - the likes of entry fees significantly exceeding prize money for most teams being the best example.

Unfortunately, people's response to the two qualifying results so far - and any more to follow - would be to dismiss the national team and follow "their" Premiership team exclusively. That's going to start a vicious circle - the national team'll get worse, so people will abandon it and follow the Premiership, so the national team'll get worse, so...

In short, we're screwed.

[bennocelt]

Unfortunately, people's response to the two qualifying results so far - and any more to follow - would be to dismiss the national team and follow "their" Premiership team exclusively. That's going to start a vicious circle - the national team'll get worse, so people will abandon it and follow the Premiership, so the national team'll get worse, so...

In short, we're screwed.

Or like myself - the LOI, and I havent looked back..........

[tetsujin1979]

Not performances. The style of play has been like that from day one. The only good performance - the Paris job - was what the players decided to do themselves. And as for the Euros, anyone would have got us to that finals - beating he likes of Slovakia, Estonia and Armenia - wow. Fact we haven beaten a top 16 team in ages says a lot. And remember even Stanton got a better result against the Germans:o
I really am tired of this myth. If it was what the players decided to do themselves, why have they not replicated it since?

[Noelys Guitar]

Unusual that McGeady is so verbose, what it does say is that he has no belief in what's happening and every cell of his body expressed it on Friday night.

"A couple of years ago, we might have been able to get something out of this game," he said. "We played against Italy, France and teams like that [in Trapattoni's previous campaigns] and we always did OK. What's different? Possibly the way we play, I don't know … It's difficult to say but I just know there is a difference. Just look at the results. A couple of years ago, we were unbeaten in a good few games. We were playing some of the top teams and we were drawing or almost sneaking wins. Against Germany, we just got put to the sword.
"Maybe something has got to change in the way we play … possibly putting more onus on us having the ball, instead of playing for flick-ons and second balls. We changed to 4-3-3 against Germany but we never really had the ball and when we did, it was two, three passes and then going long. It doesn't really suit how that system is supposed to work."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/13/republic-ireland-faroe-islands

The players had a meeting on Saturday without Trapatonni present. Its a lot like the situation at Shamrock Rovers earlier in the season when Garry Twig asked Stephen Kenny not to come into the dressing room for the half time team talk and Kenny was effectively locked out of his own teams dressing room.

[Noelys Guitar]

He achieved results from day 1 Peadar but in a very wrong way. A way that eliminated playing even a semblance of football, founded on a mistaken belief that "Irish players cant pass", largely ignored youth and form players, ignored our creative players, and was rooted in a flawed and dated philosophy. We need a manager that fundamentally believes we have good players and asks and encourages them to play. While Mick Mc mightn't be the answer, he's the last manager that did this and incorporated tactical discipline as part of that.

Say what you like Trapaholics, we've had far worse players and teams in our history that would never have produced what we did against the Gerries on Friday. Ignoring the fundamental problems where blame must lie with the FAI "vision" for our player development, Friday was not good enough in any way. Trap has got to go. Ignorant, lazy, dinosaur.

Its football forelock tugging or worse the King has a shiny Armani suit made of gold and only the fools can't see it. Like yourself Stu I've seen much worse teams than we have now get results down the years. Limited players denying space to their technically much better opponents. We do not have a bad squad of players but this manager and his apologists continue making this claim.

[geysir]

I really am tired of this myth. If it was what the players decided to do themselves, why have they not replicated it since?

Because Trap puts mogadon in their pre-match drinks to make sure such indiscipline never happens again?

In 1987 I thought Charlton's tactics were cavemanish, I was proved right many times but none more so than 1994 and afterwards, which also proved I was right all along. Occasional deviations from that script were purely incidental and managed despite the crude interventions of Charlton :rolleyes:

[tricky_colour]

But we strung together a record breaking 400 passes :)

Did we???

Another thing is Germany only had 55.4% 'Territorial Advantage' despite having 75% of the possession.
I was not sure what the norm was for that so I looked at England San Marino, and there England had 84.1%
So in one respect we did almost match the Germans.

I have downloaded the game and re watched it in HD as opposed to a stream quality, I though we played pretty well much of the time,
I think I had the same thing with the Euros, ie it was not as bad as I though live.

Another thing I noted was a lot of people were saying we played hoofball but I didn't see much of that I though we
passed it much more than normal, we actually passed it as often as the Germans did when we had possession!!

242 Total Passes 763
24.9 Possession 75.1

But that is rather meaningless as you would expect that, we just make fewer passes before we lose the ball.


Our pass success of 74.8 means that on the second pass we have 74.8 x74.8 = 55.95% but on the third pass we have 41.8% chance of
having the ball, thus by the third pass we have lost the ball!!

Contrast with Germany, with a passing Success of 92.4 we get:-
0.923 (x 0.923)
0.85 ""
0.78 ""
0.72
0.67
0.62
0.57
0.53 ""
0.49 ""

So the Germans can make 9 passes before they are more likely than not
to have lost the ball, we a miserable 3.

[tetsujin1979]

The players had a meeting on Saturday without Trapatonni present. Its a lot like the situation at Shamrock Rovers earlier in the season when Garry Twig asked Stephen Kenny not to come into the dressing room for the half time team talk and Kenny was effectively locked out of his own teams dressing room.
any link for this?

[Noelys Guitar]

any link for this?
Do not have a link but the meeting definitely took place early Saturday afternoon.. Which was why Trapatonni was asked about it at the press conference. He not being there denied it ever took place.
From the Sunday Indo
He denied reports that the players had met without the manager yesterday but confirmed that he had talked to the squad in the team hotel in Portmarnock on Friday night in an attempt to discover what was wrong and rebuild their confidence. "I'm not holding them back. I have never told them not to attack."

[tricky_colour]

Not much point locking Trap out, he would not be able to understand them anyway!!

[tetsujin1979]

Do not have a link but the meeting definitely took place early Saturday afternoon.. Which was why Trapatonni was asked about it at the press conference. He not being there denied it ever took place.
From the Sunday Indo
He denied reports that the players had met without the manager yesterday but confirmed that he had talked to the squad in the team hotel in Portmarnock on Friday night in an attempt to discover what was wrong and rebuild their confidence. "I'm not holding them back. I have never told them not to attack."ah right, I missed the press conference yesterday

[tricky_colour]

Time for interesting stat of the day. :)

We had 4 shots on target 2 of them occurred in the 7 minutes Robbie Brady was on the pitch, he play a part in both of them,
one of them resulted in a goal.

So average time per shot on target with Brady on the pitch, 3.5 minutes.
an average time per shot on target minus Brady on the pitch 41.5 minutes.

Thus we have nearly 12 times more shots on target with Brady on the pitch.

Average time per goal with Brady on the pitch 7 minutes.
Average time per goal without Brady on the pitch infinite.

Time between goals conceded with Brady on the pitch 13 minute 10 seconds
Time between goals with Brady on the pitch, infinite.

Thus one can calculate that if we start Brady on the away leg we will beat German 13-0 assuming we get a couple of minutes of extra time.

That I think would mean we can top the Group whatever German do with overall goals 14-6 in our favour.

[SwanVsDalton]

Don't know if we're still interested in team news - but Robbie made the plane for the Faroes (http://www.teamtalk.com/news/2483/8164729/Trap-boosted-by-Keane-news), while Andy 'Consolation' Keogh has been ruled out with concussion.

[pineapple stu]

while Andy 'Consolation' Keogh has been ruled out with concussion.
What, from heading the goal?

[mark12345]

Time for interesting stat of the day. :)

We had 4 shots on target 2 of them occurred in the 7 minutes Robbie Brady was on the pitch, he play a part in both of them,
one of them resulted in a goal.

So average time per shot on target with Brady on the pitch, 3.5 minutes.
an average time per shot on target minus Brady on the pitch 41.5 minutes.

Thus we have nearly 12 times more shots on target with Brady on the pitch.

Average time per goal with Brady on the pitch 7 minutes.
Average time per goal without Brady on the pitch infinite.

Time between goals conceded with Brady on the pitch 13 minute 10 seconds
Time between goals with Brady on the pitch, infinite.

Thus one can calculate that if we start Brady on the away leg we will beat German 13-0 assuming we get a couple of minutes of extra time.

That I think would mean we can top the Group whatever German do with overall goals 14-6 in our favour.

Good point about Robbie Brady. Anyone with half a brain can see that he's a threat, perhaps not a totally polished one at the current time but he does pose a threat to the opposition and it speaks volumes for him that, as you say, we had two of our four shots while he was on the pitch. Now I have all the respect in the world for John Walters but again, anyone with half a brain would have known that playing John from the start against Germany was only for 'out ball' reasons. That is to say the thinking was that when we were under pressure we would hoof it long to Walters.

But again, the question must be asked = why did Brady and Long not start as our front pair? They carry the most threat. The reason they didn't start, remember Trap alluded to Brady not having enough experience beforehand, is that the manager stayed loyal to his more experienced players. And that is a fatal flaw in football. Play your in form players and to heck with loyalty. It happened before at the Euros when Gibson was left out for Green. And as far as I'm concerned Trap has lost the dressing room because of this loyalty thing.

One other thing. If you take it at it's most basic level, you could say that we started the game without our three most creative players - Wes Hoolahan, Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid. I know they are all not there for one reason or another, but the point is they were all available for selection and I tell you what, Germany would not have had half of the possession they had last Friday, if all three played. Just a thought. I still think we would have lost the game with all three there - but it is yet another factor to take into account when judging Il Trap.

[The Fly]

One other thing. If you take it at it's most basic level, you could say that we started the game without our three most creative players - Wes Hoolahan, Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid. I know they are all not there for one reason or another, but the point is they were all available for selection and I tell you what, Germany would not have had half of the possession they had last Friday, if all three played. Just a thought.

It might have reduced their possession stats by around 2 or 3%. Don't kid yourself!

...and Stephen Ireland is not available for selection by the way.



But again, the question must be asked = why did Brady and Long not start as our front pair? They carry the most threat. The reason they didn't start, remember Trap alluded to Brady not having enough experience beforehand, is that the manager stayed loyal to his more experienced players. And that is a fatal flaw in football. Play your in form players and to heck with loyalty. It happened before at the Euros when Gibson was left out for Green. And as far as I'm concerned Trap has lost the dressing room because of this loyalty thing.


Brady plays for Manchester United's reserve team. That's the reason he didn't start.

[mark12345]

Manager = old word for coach. No difference nowadays.

[mark12345]

You are correct, Stephen Ireland is injured at the moment isn't he. Look, I'm not saying we would have won by any stretch, but I think with those three lads on the pitch we would have held the ball longer and therefore nullified an amount of the German threat, but not that much.

But your point on Brady I don't get. The reason he didn't start is because he's a Man United reserve. I don't care if he plays for Bluebell United. The lad took on the might of the German defence and had them in trouble on a couple of occassions. He was only on the pitch, what eight minutes. So your point about being a MU reserve doesn't hold water.

[trapiscrap1]

Hey guys how do you think Ireland are going to do against Faroe Islands?
I am new on this forum, and i must admit I am a bit of a newcomer to football!
I used to only be into the rugby, but then i heard the soccer team had qualified for the european championships and i got on board.
But we got hammered by every team and we never seem to win! What has this italian trapattoni done to the team?
I have never even heard of the faroe islands but i am expecting a loss because in my short time supporting the team already we seem to lose all the time!


Hope to have some good discussions with you guys on here! all the best

[Stuttgart88]

All the stats in the world can be cited but at virtually all time Germany knew what they were doing with the ball, we never looked like that. Germany virtually never played a speculative pass, we were always playing balls into areas rather than people. I was struck by how many times a German forward or wide player made a good run but the midfielder played a simple pass, knowing another opportunity would come. Never once did the runner complain about being ignored. We'd have always tried to hit the runner, and if he didn't get it he'd moan. I've seen it at all levels down the years. The Germans' footballing intelligence was on a different planet. The German players alll wanted the ball, tight spot or not. Our always hoped it'd go to someone else.

There was one example early in the second half, mcgeady had one player ahead of him and played a pass to nobody. That said it all, both about mcgeady and our team.

[The Fly]

You are correct, Stephen Ireland is injured at the moment isn't he.

Injury aside, he doesn't want to play for his country. Until he does, he shouldn't feature in any discussion on Trapattoni's tenure.



But your point on Brady I don't get. The reason he didn't start is because he's a Man United reserve. I don't care if he plays for Bluebell United. The lad took on the might of the German defence and had them in trouble on a couple of occassions. He was only on the pitch, what eight minutes. So your point about being a MU reserve doesn't hold water.

Of course it holds water. He isn't playing regular first team football. Regardless of his potential, he would not have had the match fitness to start...let alone against one of the two premier national sides in world football.

I hope he gets more game time against the Faroes however.

[Diarmo]

I'm going to hazard a guess at the starting XI for Tuesday:

I'd hope:

Westwood
Kelly O'Shea Clark Wilson
Coleman McCarthy Meyler Brady
Long Walters

I expect:


Westwood
Coleman O'Shea O'Dea Ward
Cox McCarthy Andrews McGeady
Walters Keane

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm going to hazard a guess at the starting XI for Tuesday:

I'd hope:

Westwood
Kelly O'Shea Clark Wilson
Coleman McCarthy Meyler Brady
Long Walters

I expect:


Westwood
Coleman O'Shea O'Dea Ward
Cox McCarthy Andrews McGeady
Walters Keane
Why would you play 442?

[Diarmo]

Why would you play 442?

Because 4-5-1 has been such a massive success?

[trapiscrap1]

Hi guys, new to this forum! Hope you will all welcome me!
Have to admit i have only recentley gotten into the soccer. I was mainly into the rugby and then i heard that the soccer team had qualified for the european championships so i got on board!!
But since then it has just been loss after loss, what is this italian mafioso trapattoni doing to the team guys??
Will a new manager make us any better and make us compete for world cups and european championships?

Look forward to having some good debates with you guys on here, all the best.

[Stuttgart88]

That's Trap talk! "I told you 433 wouldn't work". Like playing McCarthy in advanced midfield against Uruguay, or McClean in the middlke against Serbia.*

I'd go 442 v Faroes though - unless they have a 5 man talented midfield capable of outpassing us all night.

* btw, Brian Kerr has form here. Stephen Elliott wide right at home to Croatia.

[IsMiseSean]

I think Trap will drop one of O'Dea or Ward. Hopefully both!!

[Charlie Darwin]

Because 4-5-1 has been such a massive success?
It was more of a success than the 442 we switched to then swiftly conceded three goals in ten minutes.


That's Trap talk! "I told you 433 wouldn't work". Like playing McCarthy in advanced midfield against Uruguay, or McClean in the middlke against Serbia.*

I'd go 442 v Faroes though - unless they have a 5 man talented midfield capable of outpassing us all night.
Why? It'd be another game to get to grips with the new formation and it's not like it's impossible to attack.

[Noelys Guitar]

The Kenny Cunningham/Kevin Kilbane interview on Newstalk. Some very revealing stuff from Kilbane on what is going with the team. Apparently Trapatonni says nothing in the dressing room at half time. Not a word. The senior players do all the talking.
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/cunningham-on-trapattoni-634459-Oct2012/

[tricky_colour]

Good point about Robbie Brady. Anyone with half a brain can see that he's a threat, perhaps not a totally polished one at the current time but he does pose a threat to the opposition and it speaks volumes for him that, as you say, we had two of our four shots while he was on the pitch. Now I have all the respect in the world for John Walters but again, anyone with half a brain would have known that playing John from the start against Germany was only for 'out ball' reasons. That is to say the thinking was that when we were under pressure we would hoof it long to Walters.

But again, the question must be asked = why did Brady and Long not start as our front pair? They carry the most threat. The reason they didn't start, remember Trap alluded to Brady not having enough experience beforehand, is that the manager stayed loyal to his more experienced players. And that is a fatal flaw in football. Play your in form players and to heck with loyalty. It happened before at the Euros when Gibson was left out for Green. And as far as I'm concerned Trap has lost the dressing room because of this loyalty thing.

One other thing. If you take it at it's most basic level, you could say that we started the game without our three most creative players - Wes Hoolahan, Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid. I know they are all not there for one reason or another, but the point is they were all available for selection and I tell you what, Germany would not have had half of the possession they had last Friday, if all three played. Just a thought. I still think we would have lost the game with all three there - but it is yet another factor to take into account when judging Il Trap.


It is a lovely build up for Andy Keogh's shot, Brady plays some great passes, a nice weighted pass down the channel to Walter and good
movement to provide an outlet for Walters, there are 3 Germans dealing with the two of them at this point as situation in which we would fail
19 times out of 20. Robbie plays a great tight return ball into an almost impossible spot the weight has to be just right, and it is,
this draws in four German defenders, (that's almost half the team!!), but there is an out ball to Coleman who has taken the chance to
get forward as is his habit, Coleman has a bit of space now and works it to thread a great ball through to Keogh who is unlucky not to score.

So for a brief moment there we looked like German and Germany were the ones chasing shadows, in fact we looked like Barcelona!!!

So that is the positive I take from the game.

How Brady is rated Ireland worst player by both the users and Sky is utterly baffling to me, I would rate him our best player,
as I did against Oman.

Also rated poorly on goal.com "Took the corner which led to the consolation strike, but did little else" - laughable, but he does get more thumbs up
than any other Iirish player there.

[tricky_colour]

Why would you play 442?

It's easier to arrange the deck chairs like that on a narrow ship :p

[tricky_colour]

Trap says Brady does not have enough experience, if he means experience of losing whilst he is on the pitch I whole heartedly agree, he has none. (IIRC).

And I would play him for that reason alone even if every bone in his body was broken!!

[the bear]

That's Trap talk! "I told you 433 wouldn't work". Like playing McCarthy in advanced midfield against Uruguay, or McClean in the middlke against Serbia.*

I'd go 442 v Faroes though - unless they have a 5 man talented midfield capable of outpassing us all night.

* btw, Brian Kerr has form here. Stephen Elliott wide right at home to Croatia.

It makes no difference what formation you line up in when you can't keep the ball or get close to the opposition when they have it.

In my eyes we played no different than in any other game on Friday. We sat off them and let them play just like any other team we play. They were just ruthless with their finishing. Their game is excellent, based on doing the easy things extremely well. Our game is based on trying to get the ball close to their box and hoping for the best.

We mightn't have the greatest set of players in the world but we are definitely good enough to hold onto the ball for more than 3 passes. A well drilled team playing with confidence and direction can be a lot better than the sum of its parts. The Germans showed exactly how to do it, simply moving into space a picking out easy balls, working as a team together.

Trap just has to go. He has shown no ability to change. He hasn't learnt from previous defeats. His communication is abysmal. The team is playing with absolute zero confidence. His decision making is bizarre.

It is still a possibility that we can stumble into another playoff playing in this stoneage manner but whats the point. We will get rolled over by every decent technical team we face. Better off getting a new man in and use the rest of this campaign to bed him in. Ones thing for sure though, Trap won't walk and I don't think the FAI can afford to push him. So we are probably stuck with this muck for a while more.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I agree that when all you do is play behind the ball it's academic what nominal shape you line up in. But you'd hope that we do a bit more than that against the Faroes.