Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Noelys Guitar]

This guy is clearly not going to resign so we have a fairly horrible situation developing. A manager not wanted by players/fans/pundits/media is a dead man walking. The FAI allegedly don't have the money to pay off Trapatonni and his entourage. Will O'Brien stump up the dough? We probably won't know what is going on behind scenes until the Sunday papers are published.

[peadar1987]

My friend, if you want O'Shea as an interim manager or indeed if you want him to have anything more to do with this team, you need to find a different sport to follow because you clearly know nothing about football.

And who would you have replace him? Apart from an average central midfielder? Paul McShane, perhaps? The only person looking like they might be a prospect is Duffy, and he's barely played for his club.

[Diarmo]

And who would you have replace him? Apart from an average central midfielder? Paul McShane, perhaps? The only person looking like they might be a prospect is Duffy, and he's barely played for his club.

Ciaran Clark
Alex Pearce
Marc Wilson

That 'peno' that O'Shea nearly gave away in the 1st half was criminal defending for someone with over 80 caps.

[Bungle]

Before the Euros, I was very disappointed with Trap's handling of players who should have been integral players for us. I watched him treat James McCarthy and Ciaran Clarke disgracefully. Two young lads who have lots to learn (as can be seen from Clarke with Villa this season and James tonight against Germany) but who could be top class in the future. I watched him leave a competent decent young player with a good future like Wilson out of squads for the totally mediocre Ward and totally ignore Hoolahan completely. However, as annoyed as I was and as dismayed by our style of play I was, my attitude was hey we're back at the top table and I'm going to head to Poland and enjoy the ride. I actually thought we deserved a bit of luck after Paris and I thought we might get out of the group.

Now, I cannot understand how anybody can support Trap. We have a bunch of young lads there who offer hope and this man will stifle them and ruin them. He has lost the dressing room and he must go.

[Manblue]

ARE THERE ANY COACHES OUT THERE AMONG YOU?

If so I would love to hear your thoughts. Wave the magic wand and put yourself in Trap's shoes for the remainder of the campaign. What are your priorities to right this ship before it sinks? I know from the coaching I've done, I would find players to trouble the opposition defence. You have to have a tip to your spear - if not it's a pointless exercise. We didn't have that today - our best option was to have a Long, Brady axis. But we didn't. First mistake. You also need to be a
fortress in defence. We don't have that right now. O'Dea is somewhat blameless because he was a second or third choice but O'Shea is certainly to blame and so is Trap for persisting with him. If you've seen my posts on here over time you know I've called him the worst defender Ireland has ever produced. Nothing that we saw from him today changed that. We have persisted with players who are substandard defenders. As a coach you should move others into plug the gap - perhaps Andrews playing beside Dunne or Sledge or keep going down the pecking order to find a jewel of a player. Any thoughts on coaching?

What are you on about. You don't have to be a coach to know stuff like that and secondly that's a managers job not a coach. There were so many fundamental errors tonight I couldn't begin to start. Perhaps I'll be calmer tomorrow

[tricky_colour]

We will bounce back, we will stuff them in the return leg for sure.

[Murfinator]

To me tonight confirmed how poor our player pool is and that our golden generation of players have papered over the cracks for long enough. There was no paper tonight and the cracks were plain to see for all. Wouldn't blame the management, buck stops with the players for that and they just weren't good enough. Most of them will never be good enough. Fahey and Cox were desperate tonight, I cringed watching McCarthy's token effort at a block for Kroos's second and not one but two of our centre backs gave away a penalty (or what should have been) tonight. Long had 40 minutes and did nothing.
Even during the anthem at the start, barely anyone sung it and the passion shown there was echoed throughout the game. Limp and disjointed. Given, Keane, Dunne, Duff, Kilbane and Doyle were the heart and soul of our team, without them we're nothing. We don't have the characters, we don't have the leadership, we just have a bunch of journeymen who aren't and never will be good enough for this level. This was always going to happen sooner or later. The criticism of the management for not blooding these guys sooner is a false assumption that with time and experience they'll ever be good enough, I don't believe they will.

Dark times ahead, just how great Duff, Keane, Given and Dunne were/are is going to become very, very apparent over the next few years. People will hide behind Trap as the problem for now but they'll see our current pool of "talent" for what it really is soon enough.


On Germany, they were fantastic as expected and one of the great teams of our time. Like with Spain we were close to them 10 years ago but the flourishing grassroots for La Liga and the Bundesliga compared to the floundering EPL mired in the past has widened the gap to a chasm. Hard to see how we'd ever not get destroyed by either in the foreseeable future.

[wonder88]

strange that Marc Wilson can't get a place in the Irish defence, however Germany have a lot of very good players and I don't think another change or two in our starting 11 would have made much difference. Game against Faroe Islands is a must win, hope Long starts up front with Waters and maybe we might see Wilson in at the back, give Brady a chance as well from the off and leave Fahey out. I would also ask Gibson to come back and play Clarke instead of O Dea and drop Ward.

[Murfinator]

This guy is clearly not going to resign so we have a fairly horrible situation developing. A manager not wanted by players/fans/pundits/media is a dead man walking. The FAI allegedly don't have the money to pay off Trapatonni and his entourage. Will O'Brien stump up the dough? We probably won't know what is going on behind scenes until the Sunday papers are published.

If we beat the Faroes we'll have 6 from 9 and the most we could realistically have at this stage leaving us on course for our targeted 2nd place finish. The signs are bad but no football association or chairman is going to sack someone because of signs when they've achieved the targeted points.

[bishbash]

The nobody could do any better argument is criminal. Is Ciaran Clark better than O'Dea? Yes. Is Marc Wilson better than Ward? Yes. Is McClean better than Cox as a winger a million percent yes, then someone please enlighten me as to why they don't play. Trappatoni was very lucky to qualify for the Euros but credit where it's due we did. People have constantly said its a results game, well if it is the last 5 results are embarrassing and I include that win against the country with superior potassium! Also if no one else can do any better and the players are not good enough then why is he being paid nearly 2 million a yr, just pay someone a tenth of that for the same results. His time has come and gone.

[mark12345]

And who would you have replace him? Apart from an average central midfielder? Paul McShane, perhaps? The only person looking like they might be a prospect is Duffy, and he's barely played for his club.

"Who would you have replace him?"

That's your first mistake. And quite frankly it's been the mistake of the manager for quite some time now. Similarly you can blame the manager for continuing to select Ward. Clark, Andrews, Pearce, Duffy are all better options at center back, yes Andrews. But that's not the point. The point is that O'Shea is not of international standard, never has been. Yet we persist with him. He could never be accused of being a Richard Dunne for his bravery. He has absolutely nothing going for him as a defender. If you didn't see that long before he gave away two goals to the Italians at Croke Park, then what can I say.

And if any of the quartet I mentioned above failed to work out then I would go down the divisions to find a proper defender for the job. You just can't keep playing a sub standard player because there's no one else. There's always someone else.

[harry crumb]

To me tonight confirmed how poor our player pool is and that our golden generation of players have papered over the cracks for long enough. There was no paper tonight and the cracks were plain to see for all. Wouldn't blame the management, buck stops with the players for that and they just weren't good enough.

Is Simon Cox a winger?

Is Darren O'Dea a better player than Ciaran Clarke?

Should Seamus Coleman have been blooded earlier?

The players were poor, but this is not a once off. Don't kid yourself, we were getting the same performances when the "golden generation" were in situ as well.

[Bungle]

The nobody could do any better argument is criminal. Is Ciaran Clark better than O'Dea? Yes. Is Marc Wilson better than Ward? Yes. Is McClean better than Cox as a winger a million percent yes, then someone please enlighten me as to why they don't play. Trappatoni was very lucky to qualify for the Euros but credit where it's due we did. People have constantly said its a results game, well if it is the last 5 results are embarrassing and I include that win against the country with superior potassium! Also if no one else can do any better and the players are not good enough then why is he being paid nearly 2 million a yr, just pay someone a tenth of that for the same results. His time has come and gone.

Spot on mate. We have a batch of young players that are talented and can make a difference if they are trusted. Trap has never picked his best 11 but he got away with it by getting results. Now he is not playing his best team, is being humiliated in every game and continues to have the habit of alienating a big proportion of our team.

People who defend him are not winning extra kudos for being loyal Irish supporters, they are just displaying extraordinary naivety.

[SwanVsDalton]

That's the walloping that's been coming for some time, as many people have noted.

Have to say I didn't think we even played all that badly in the first half. We looked reasonably comfortable with them playing in front of us - but then they stepped up and scored two goals.

Bit shellshocked but have a couple of observations - we were two down, came out in the second half for five minutes and had a go. Cox brought a decent stop from Neuer an we won a corner. Then Long came on and we went 442. And then we conceded three goals in ten minutes.

So fair to say the system wasn't to blame so much as the change? Charlie Darwin mentioned earlier in the thread about this being what happens when we try a system three years too late (a fair point). But I thought we looked far more competitive under the new system than the old one.

Germany appeared to score with every chance they got and some of the goals were absolute clinkers, even if our closing down was pathetic.

Also not sure how it came across on TV, but Germany were pretty excellent even if they were in 3rd gear. I really don't think people should get bogged down in selection - Long, Wilson, Clark, Brady could all have played and it wouldn't have made a difference imo. Hell we could've had the whole squad on the pitch and we'd have been beaten heavily.

The biggest problem for me - bigger than selection and system even - is belief and attitude, because that's exactly the ingredient Trap was providing. Belief that the team would resist the opposition at any cost, not concede goals, be hard to beat. And that belief is gone, probably forever under the current manager. It went as soon as we were smashed by Croatia in Poznan.

Tonight we were a couple down, but a bit of leadership (we were lacking in caps - partly down to injuries, partly down to players not being blooded) could've stemmed the tide. What's really troubling is when they scored number 3, it might as well have been number 13. The players broke down completely. It happened against Spain and it happened again tonight.

That, to me, is what's totally unacceptable. Someone earlier in the thread asked when two down, if it mattered if we were beaten 5-0 - it does. It matters because it shows we completely lost belief, confidence and faith in being defensively obdurate, hard to beat and never say die.

Those qualities are some of our most crucial. Without em, we're boned. No way we're getting a result in Stockholm without some serious player rehab. And the current manager isn't the one to do it.

[brine3]

Between 2008 and 2011 Trap always seemed to pick the right team. He motivated them well and got results. It was ugly, but it worked.

But now he seems to make utterly bizarre decisions. O'Dea is a great servant, and the greatest of respect to him, but when we have regular Premier League defenders on the bench we don't need Toronto FC players anywhere near the squad. That's just one of many examples.

And the players have lost all motivation, fight and spirit. And Trap is having regular miscommunications and spats with players, when he used not to.

He wasn't like this at all before. I think he's just too old for this now. The man needs to retire. If he goes now I'll have very fond memories of him. Because he put us back on the map after the Staunton era and put a bit of pride, organisation and fight back into the team.

But if he keeps on like this, it could get worse than the Staunton era. And, in a way, this result is nearly worse than the Cyprus one. This is at home.

[Olé Olé]

Is Simon Cox a winger?

Is Darren O'Dea a better player than Ciaran Clarke?

Should Seamus Coleman have been blooded earlier?


These are the questions I was asking during and after the game also. I'd have questioned starting Ward ahead of Wilson also, but Ward performed better than O'Dea and Cox on the night, so I'll leave it at that.

Cox was totally and utterly non-existent in this game. And yet, McGeady was taken off before him. And Andy Keogh was brought on. Not Robbie Brady.

Trap has died by the sword in terms of placing faith in O'Dea for long enough when he could have given the chance to more talented players (Clark). O'Dea was shown up at last and it was not a pretty sight. He was guilty of over-hitting some long balls, not to mention the inexcusable penalty I can't quite wrap my head around. I think he hesitated when that Klose goal was on it's way in and he genuinely thought it didn't have the angle to go in, otherwise he would have slid in sooner. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but that was my judgement of it.

Walters was very good. He was isolated because Cox provided him with no support and the 3 midfielders were also hesitant to push on and provide him an outlet. On the occasions when Andrews did provide such an outlet, he was quick to relieve us of possession and hand it back to Germany. Long in place of Cox would have made more sense. When we were behind by more than one goal what hope had Long to turn the game completely on it's head? That's where Trap's logic fell down in relation to Long as an impact sub.

[Olé Olé]

On the issue of the 'Golden Generation' (per sé), I wonder did Trap's presence at manager lead to the decisions made by Given and Duff? Both are quite willing to keep playing club football for as long as they can, as shown by Duff's comments and Given's contract.

In relation to the player pool issue, Irish teams always made up for what they lacked in talent with a stronger spirit. I was speaking to a Belgian chap at the weekend and I was saying what a great team his national side had. Straight away the guy responded "Yes, yes, we have great players but they don't care about the national team. They are not like the Irish with their fighting spirit." The attitude was wrong there tonight. Given that we could pick a team of Premier League players yet be beaten by Germany by 5 goals, we should be doing something even worse to a Faroese team. The gap between the cream of the Bundesliga and the mediocrity of the Premier League must surely be far less pronounced than the gap between the latter and the cream of the Faroese league. But, frankly, the Faroe Islands hold no relevance to this discussion.

[gastric]

You make a valid point about the lack of fighting spirit. It was clearly lacking in the Euros, and I find myself repeating myself, but the last time I saw this spirit was against the French on that infamous night in Paris. I remember Lawrence in particular work his socks off to defend and then he worked hard to go forward.

Someone needs to re-energise this team and if it means starting the rebuilding process now, so be it. We are becoming whipping boys and even if it means we continue to lose as we rebuild, to see progress in our attitude and performance would do for me at this stage. TBH, if we, by some miracle, qualified for the WC Finals I would envisage a repeat of the Euro performance under the present regime. I can't believe I am saying this, but I would rather we didn't qualify if we continue to play this way.

[Grafter]

Have to say, up until that dosy challenge by O'Shea on Reus in the 31st minute I was pleasantly surprised by what I thought was a decent start to the game for Ireland. I thought Andrews and Walters acquitted themselves manfully from start to finish and should be exempt from criticism....

[Grafter]

The big question is, will there be a hangover for the Faroe match?
"It's always darkest before the dawn, and I can assure you, the dawn IS coming" District Attorney Harvey Dent 2008 RIP;)

[Spudulika]

I had to leave just before half time and had been impressed by the 1sthalf hour, despite Ronnie Whingin's constant attempts to diminish Ireland's efforts (maybe he figures he's a shoo in for the job). 1-6 (not 0-6 as RTE had it on the screen) was bad, very bad against a top team like Germany, but reading the opinions above it's largely down to the coaches loyalty to players. O'Dea wasn't great from what I watched, Ward was good, Cox was quiet and our attacks and play (for the 1st half hour) were good and inventive. But this boils down, yet again, to the British educated players who revert to type when the screw is turned.

When I hear Dunphy saying he'd welcome McCarthy back? Jesus, this is insane. Our meeja are a disgrace, they're looking for another sacrificial lamb and they're lining up excuses. And laughing Bill is loving it, with his "understanding" being zero, and twists of truth it's a simple 3 ring circus.

Loved Dunphy's comparison of trap to Brian Cody. I wonder now if Trap goes to matches will the meeja shut it? Not a chance. We don't want a manager, we want to be back with the motherland.

[Grafter]

I had to leave just before half time and had been impressed by the 1sthalf hour, despite Ronnie Whingin's constant attempts to diminish Ireland's efforts (maybe he figures he's a shoo in for the job). 1-6 (not 0-6 as RTE had it on the screen) was bad, very bad against a top team like Germany, but reading the opinions above it's largely down to the coaches loyalty to players. O'Dea wasn't great from what I watched, Ward was good, Cox was quiet and our attacks and play (for the 1st half hour) were good and inventive. But this boils down, yet again, to the British educated players who revert to type when the screw is turned.



When I hear Dunphy saying he'd welcome McCarthy back? Jesus, this is insane. Our meeja are a disgrace, they're looking for another sacrificial lamb and they're lining up excuses. And laughing Bill is loving it, with his "understanding" being zero, and twists of truth it's a simple 3 ring circus.

Loved Dunphy's comparison of trap to Brian Cody. I wonder now if Trap goes to matches will the meeja shut it? Not a chance. We don't want a manager, we want to be back with the motherland.

Ah I anticipated the usual RTE pantomime so earlier this week I adjusted my dish to pick up German tv instead. Switched over briefly to RTE at half-time - seriously OTT stuff at half time anyways. I thought Billo was retiring after Olympics - please retire you nasty ****-stirrer! Basically the RTE panel are a bunch of men who wish they were 20 years younger. After a hard days work, I don't need to be further depressed by their misgivings on life in general.
P.S. Dunphy always plays the Hurling analogy to appeal to the GAA heads outside the pale. Pathetic stuff... feck Saorview, I'm sticking with German satellite tv;)

[Spudulika]

I lost an hour of my life this morning (not to mention work) watching back RTE's wrap up, the only thing I can happily say is that the post-match radio analysis was far better, more even and without the hysterics stirred by Bill. Bill is a pr man, he has conflicts of interest, same as Terry Prone and her harpies (not to mentoin her husband). Of course she needs the income to pay for the botox and other miracles of nature, but christ, RTE is so disgraceful (tv especially) in it's behaviour. I know it was pointed out time and again by the bitter old hack Harris, and I never would disagree with him in how RTE is run, but they have their heads so far up the backsides of the motherland's behaviour it's not funny. I'm not watching football on RTE so long as Bill is presenting. #billmustgo

[harry crumb]

I lost an hour of my life this morning (not to mention work) watching back RTE's wrap up, the only thing I can happily say is that the post-match radio analysis was far better, more even and without the hysterics stirred by Bill. Bill is a pr man, he has conflicts of interest, same as Terry Prone and her harpies (not to mentoin her husband). Of course she needs the income to pay for the botox and other miracles of nature, but christ, RTE is so disgraceful (tv especially) in it's behaviour. I know it was pointed out time and again by the bitter old hack Harris, and I never would disagree with him in how RTE is run, but they have their heads so far up the backsides of the motherland's behaviour it's not funny. I'm not watching football on RTE so long as Bill is presenting. #billmustgo

Thought the radio summation was more informative as well.

Bill like Trap you have had your day, give someone else a chance.

[gastric]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/mortifying-night-as-germans-expose-clueless-ireland-3258087.html

[p2011]

Well, where are all the "results are king" Trap supporters now? All those content with beating Estonia and the pummelling in Moscow?
The results, organisation, spirit... all gone. And this didn't start in June or last night either.
Please go, Trap, please give us our pride back. Would even take Kerr's near miss in 2006 WCQ ahead of this any day.

[bennocelt]

Trying to think what to write, but what's the point. We've been destroyed at home.

It's time for Trap to go. But he should be remembered alongside Jack and Mick as one of the few who took us to the top table. For me, he'll always have that and be regarded as one of the best we've had. But we can't accept this - he's clearly lost the players and he took far too long to accept that we needed to change the way we played.

Sad that it ended this way.


Laughable post - stick to your man OR NOT!!! Lots on here declaring him as the messiah - ha ha. Muck football for the ole ole brigade:D

[Murfinator]

Is Simon Cox a winger?

Is Darren O'Dea a better player than Ciaran Clarke?

Should Seamus Coleman have been blooded earlier?

The players were poor, but this is not a once off. Don't kid yourself, we were getting the same performances when the "golden generation" were in situ as well.

He's as much a winger as Robbie Brady is an international caliber player who was the only alternative.

Yes O'Dea is better, Clark is the flakiest of flaky defenders whos also playing in a dreadful team and has been 7th choice CB for us for a very good reason.

When exactly? Coleman had dreadful form/fitness last season and never warranted a callup. He had one good season 2 years ago when he was competing with a Man Utd RB and Duff/McGeady. Bearing in mind last night Reus and Schmelzer had a similar number of caps as Coleman, didn't see them hiding behind excuses of not being blooded enough.


Do we need to cycle through the entire roster and change managers before you accept these players are poor against strong opposition?

[Murfinator]

Well, where are all the "results are king" Trap supporters now?

Amidst your hysteria you've forgotten that a win on Tuesday leaves our points total in the best possible situation that was realistically achievable at this point.

[SkStu]

To everyone on here who questioned me and my opinion of Trappatoni over the last 3 and a half years,

TOLD YOU.

[Murfinator]

After reflecting on the match, my player ratings. I think it's important to call a spade a spade and not hide behind the manager for what was some horrific individual performances. Paddy Kenny, Clinton Morrison and Andy O'Brien never played for Ireland again after the 5-2 Cyprus fiasco, I'd be quite happy to not see some of these guys again too.

Westwood - 4 - Six great strikes that he wouldn't have realistically been expected to stop although we've come to expect our goalkeepers to rescue the situation throughout Shay's time. Beaten comfortably for all of them, with such a quantity you'd hope your keeper would pull out something exceptional for at least one of them.

Coleman - 3 - Lively yet unproductive in attack, woeful in defence. He'll be having nightmares about Reus who humiliated him all night long. It's been a while since a team targetted our RB instead of LB but tonight was the night.

O'Shea - 2 - No composure, gave away a stupid penalty that by some miracle wasn't given and offered no leadership as a senior player when we desperately needed it. Confirmed that without the big 4 we have no leaders on the pitch.

O'Dea - 3 - Had a decent first half handling Klose then fell to pieces early in the 2nd with a reckless challenge and soon after being exposed for pace.

Ward - 5 - When Ward is your best defender on the night you know your back is in serious trouble. I'm usually critical of him but honestly thought he did alright last night. Kept Muller quiet and decent in possession.

McGeady - 2 - One of his poorest games in a long time, like O'Shea looks like another guy who'll be a senior player in name only for his. Lost Schmelzer for the first goal which set everything in motion for Germany. A very poor player for a team with low possession despite being our most talented on paper and only one who is Champions League standard.

Fahey - 3 - Supposedly tasked with man marking Ozil which he did successfully early on, but like everything else in the team was unraveling at the seams by halftime. At nearly 30 and a squad player in the championship you'd have to wonder if he has any future at this level.

Andrews - 3 - Lacked his usual energy as Schweinstieger ran rings around him.

McCarthy - 3 - Held his own in the first half in a midfield that successfully contained Germany for about 30 minutes but worryingly and embarrassingly looked lazy and disinterested in the 2nd half. His token press effort on Kroos for his 2nd goal makes me wonder about his commitment. That kind of not being bothered attitude is not something we're familiar with on Irish teams.

Cox - 1 - Counted him giving the ball away 4 times in the first half, at points in the game when we were still in the contest. Most of those mistakes severely punished leading Cox to play a key role in our attacks and possession retention breaking down. Why Lawrence is in exile with Duff retired, Brady too young and McClean not trusted I'd love to know.

Walters - 6 - Battled and did all he could with no support whatsoever. Perhaps was under instruction but was burning energy recklessly in the first half hour, was just no way he'd last at that tempo and predictably struggled in the 2nd half to be as effective.


--Subs--

Long - 3 - Offered nothing but a petulant tackle.

Keogh - 6 - Once again made a solid impact off the bench, amidst the despair it was nice to see someone with a positive attitude drawing Neuer's first save and then a consolation goal that was well..no consolation. But did what little he could in the dire circumstances.

[harry crumb]

He's as much a winger as Robbie Brady is an international caliber player who was the only alternative.

This is not just about 1 game.

He played him in Poland as well ahead of James McClean.


Yes O'Dea is better, Clark is the flakiest of flaky defenders whos also playing in a dreadful team and has been 7th choice CB for us for a very good reason.


O'Dea is not as good as Clark. Did you watch him play for Celtic or Leeds?



When exactly? Coleman had dreadful form/fitness last season and never warranted a callup. He had one good season 2 years ago when he was competing with a Man Utd RB and Duff/McGeady. Bearing in mind last night Reus and Schmelzer had a similar number of caps as Coleman, didn't see them hiding behind excuses of not being blooded enough.

Coleman acquitted himself well in the circumstances I thought. Should have got more game time before last night like many others.



Do we need to cycle through the entire roster and change managers before you accept these players are poor against strong opposition?

Yes we need to change the manager. His tactics are not good enough.

Good players there and Trap is not making them better players. Bye Bye Trap.

[rellik]

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

[Neish]

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

Granted we don't have great players but I honestly think that a new manager (who has a proven record in man management) will get more out of what we have. Trap has proven he his little or no respect for the players not in his match day squad and has been selecting lower quality players when there are in form players available(who often play at a higher level than those he selected) If Trap had any respect for the job he would resign, can't see the FAI sacking him as it will be admitting they are wrong and I'd imagine it would involve a huge pay off.

Anyhow my verdict on last night

Andrews tried hard all night and Fahey kept ozil at bay although this probably give other like Reus & Kross more freedom. Cox was useless on the wing(but its not his position), McGeady was to fault for at least the 1st goal the less said about Coleman & McCarthy both tried hard but was getting very little support same with walters. O'Shea, O'Dea and Ward the better, Westwood should of done better for one or tow of the goals but when he the Germans were attacking as much you can't really lay too much blame on his shoulder. Long was decent when he came on and proved he should of been on from the start , Keogh did well to take the goal but didn't do much else, Brady gave the assist for the goal but didn't have a chance to make any more impact.

Don't think I'm forgetting anyone

[geysir]

I'd agree with Harry that Coleman acquitted himself decently in that shambles.
But there's no point in assessing how our midfield players rated or Walters up front rated, trying to get his head to a Westwood lofted ball after lofted ball, against players who easily had him matched.
We had a decent enough 5 man midfield who were not set up play as they are well capable of. In fact the way they were set up conjured a chaotic ensemble which set a new lowest common denominator. What was the point of having our ball player Fahey run around after Ozil? or Westwood hoofing the ball over the midfield. No wonder McGeady had a nightmare game in that chaos.
Trap clearly cannot organize the available players into a unit, nor is he prepared to see us play any game other than a game where hoofing is the priority.
The argument against the individual merits of our players at this standard fall flat when evidently 5th and 6th seeded teams can be set up to play football.
Andrews looks a bit thin, gives a new perspective to the expression 'skin and bone'.

[gastric]

Trap not contemplating the sack. The heat is now on Delaney to show leadership which will not happen.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/1013/341514-giovanni-trapattoni-not-contemplating-the-sack/

[pineapple stu]

There's no way the FAI can afford to sack him.

[harry crumb]

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

As I have said it doesn't matter how many are in the middle if the instructions are hit it long time after time.

How many times did the full back receive the ball from the keeper last night.

Honestly don't think Trap knows how to operate in a formation other than 4-4-2.

[rellik]

If you guys seriously believe a manager with Trap's experience and medals is setting up his team so that his back five have been told to bypass the five man midfield and hoof the ball up to the lone striker then you're mental - that is simply not the case.

Last night's game, alongside the Croatia, Italy and Spanish games exposed the players inability to maintain possession. Players are giving the ball away when they are under very little pressure. We see this week in, week out in the lower ranks of the EPL and Barclays Championship.

Trap has proven he can do the job with limited resources and a bit of luck, but he is not a miracle worker. The game has moved on in the last five years and Ireland has not managed to replace the resources we once had. Second place is still possible and I really do not think changing the manager at this stage will improve our chances, or the basic skills of the squad.

[brine3]

Last night's game, alongside the Croatia, Italy and Spanish games exposed the players inability to maintain possession. Players are giving the ball away when they are under very little pressure. We see this week in, week out in the lower ranks of the EPL and Barclays Championship.

Norwich City's Wes Hoolahan ain't bad at moving the ball about.

[Murfinator]

This is not just about 1 game.

He played him in Poland as well ahead of James McClean.


O'Dea is not as good as Clark. Did you watch him play for Celtic or Leeds?



Coleman acquitted himself well in the circumstances I thought. Should have got more game time before last night like many others.



Yes we need to change the manager. His tactics are not good enough.

Good players there and Trap is not making them better players. Bye Bye Trap.

He played the tactic everyone wanted last night with attacking fullbacks, a strong aerial striker and 3 in the centre mid. The team was set up fine bar Cox out wide, the players were just abysmal. Critics have changed their tune from criticising Trap for being conservative to now doing too little too late and reaping what he sowed from previous conservatism when he's no longer being conservative. It's real adaptive criticism that'll be shaped whatever the outcome to lambast the manager, this is the ugly face of the modern soccer culture in Ireland.
There has to come a point where people stop blaming the manager for everything and open their eyes at how poor the players themselves are, and indeed how poor the standard of the EPL is on the European stage these days. The EPL is being left behind by the better coaching in La Liga and the Bundesliga and even then our players are struggling to have any impact in a sinking ship league.

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.

[shakermaker1982]

If the Trap doesn't want the players to bypass the MF why does he let it happen time after time?

He could bollock em or drop em. He's clearly content with this policy of giving the ball back to the opposition. If Liverpool players under Brendan Rodgers started ignoring his demands for playing on the floor do you think he'd not say anything?

These guys are professional footballers. They should be able to pass, move & control a ball.

[osarusan]

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.

The players not being very good and the manager not getting the best out of the players are not mutually exclusive.

How bad will things have to get before you will consider the possbility that Trap, even with the limited resources available to him, should be doing a better job?

[Murfinator]

The players not being very good and the manager not getting the best out of the players are not mutually exclusive.

How bad will things have to get before you will consider the possbility that Trap, even with the limited resources available to him, should be doing a better job?

A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far? No, actually I don't believe we're capable of better.

What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

[Manblue]

He played the tactic everyone wanted last night with attacking fullbacks, a strong aerial striker and 3 in the centre mid. The team was set up fine bar Cox out wide, the players were just abysmal. Critics have changed their tune from criticising Trap for being conservative to now doing too little too late and reaping what he sowed from previous conservatism when he's no longer being conservative. It's real adaptive criticism that'll be shaped whatever the outcome to lambast the manager, this is the ugly face of the modern soccer culture in Ireland.
There has to come a point where people stop blaming the manager for everything and open their eyes at how poor the players themselves are, and indeed how poor the standard of the EPL is on the European stage these days. The EPL is being left behind by the better coaching in La Liga and the Bundesliga and even then our players are struggling to have any impact in a sinking ship league.

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.



I agree with one thing, the team was set up fine is terms of formation. It was the choice of players and the positions they were used in that was a key problem. Odds suggested we were always going to lose the game but from a damage limitation purpose for the fans we deserved more.

Firstly, despite there league position, Villa are an EPL team, they play against top quality opposition week in week out. Clark has got a contract there and starts, this is far more than O Dea has managed. His selection was an error and it was glaringly obvious.

Secondly there was the midfield. They completely lacked direction. Perhaps a combination of the language barrier and first time using the tactics, combined with Trap not watching players properly. McCarthy has played the deep lying sitting role for wigan very adequately on numerous occasions. He has marked Gerrard and Lampard among others and not given them a sniff. If anyone was to pick up Ozil it should of been him. Fahey has played in the whole and on the wing on the other hand and he was tasked with the job. Whilst we had 3 in the middle, fahey was losing Ozil at every opportunity and Andrews and McCarthy were constantly pointing and not picking runners and giving them far too much space. Had Trap been more familiar with the players he may have set them up different. McCarthy was supporting Walters alot of the time, Hoolahan is a better available option for this.
Cox is not a winger, all the hard work in the world and limited pace does not make up for poor positional sense. He was constantly the wrong side of his man in defence and only once up with the attack when we broke, not to mention his sloppiness in possession. In my opinion Fahey should of been out there to track with intelligence and retain the ball when had it at feet.
McGeady? Coleman should of played right wing and perhaps kelly behind. Coleman offers more in defense and probably attack at this stage. I'm sorry to say Aiden is a lost cause. Not even his dribbling is admirable anymore.

Then there are the players. Trap has lost the players. It was evident in their body language, their actions in possession and there lack of movement off the ball. He has stripped them of belief, freedom to express themselves and the result is they dont enjoy it and don't want to play for him. A conscious or sub-conscious effort to get him the sack?? I don't know. Either way the fans don't deserve the rubbish served up last night.

My hopes are a win on tuesday, how ugly? I don't care. Hopefully then we can part ways with the manager and get someone new in to get the players and fans onside (not that I think the fans have behaved in anyway badly towards the team/management). There is actually a great deal more talent available than has been in previous years. Some may be out of our budget but im sure an arrangement can be made with one of them. I'm not saying there world beaters but at this stage Coyle, McCarthy, McDermitt, Redknapp (far fetched) and even curbishly have to be better options for at least the remainder of the campaign.

[SwanVsDalton]

Secondly there was the midfield. They completely lacked direction. Perhaps a combination of the language barrier and first time using the tactics, combined with Trap not watching players properly. McCarthy has played the deep lying sitting role for wigan very adequately on numerous occasions. He has marked Gerrard and Lampard among others and not given them a sniff. If anyone was to pick up Ozil it should of been him. Fahey has played in the whole and on the wing on the other hand and he was tasked with the job. Whilst we had 3 in the middle, fahey was losing Ozil at every opportunity and Andrews and McCarthy were constantly pointing and not picking runners and giving them far too much space. Had Trap been more familiar with the players he may have set them up different. McCarthy was supporting Walters alot of the time, Hoolahan is a better available option for this.

In fairness, Fahey didn't do such a bad job. None of them did defensively. Ozil's influence in the first half was reasonably neglible. Fahey's man marking did actually have the affect of nullifying Ozil to a certain extent - probably was he just swapped positions with Khedira, who then swapped with Schweinsteiger. Their interchanging is just great to watch. Andrews and McCarthy were doing a lot of pointing, and I agree that's partly down to the manager not really preparing them for the job they had at hand. But it's also because those German midfielders as a unit are a cut above anything Andrews or McCarthy have faced.

Ultimately I don't think the middle three would've stemmed it no matter what roles they were playing. They were overran by a phenomenal bunch - and we shipped three in ten minutes when we went just two in the middle.

[p2011]

A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far?

Can we please move on from this argument? We have been poor in competitive games since Paris 2009, and our last 5 games have been shocking. Beating Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia is nothing to get excited about. And your "max points from the non-Germany games" means the game in Astana.... are we supposed to be satisfied with that too?


What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

Do you want all this to happen? Because it will if we keep going as we are at the moment.

The rest of your arguments are flawed too.... nobody was calling for attacking fullbacks against Germany. And playing Fahey as a manmarker is silly, he's a creative midfielder, the front man in a 3 and not the back man. And few wanted a strong aerial striker (Walters), we wanted a strong varied striker (Long).

[pineapple stu]

A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far? No, actually I don't believe we're capable of better.

What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

I think you're too focused on results over performances.

Last night was coming. Kazakhstan was a massive wake-up call, but an awful performance has occurred again. The notion that we should sit back and see if it happens yet again is wrong. The fact is the performances have been going downhill for the last couple of years (and I know we've lost our best players). Proper management - from the FAI in this instance - should be pro-active, not reactive. Waiting until after we play like the last five games a couple more times and then calling for change would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I genuinely fear you may be figuring we should be doing better after Tuesday's game.

[Murfinator]

Can we please move on from this argument? We have been poor in competitive games since Paris 2009, and our last 5 games have been shocking. Beating Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia is nothing to get excited about. And your "max points from the non-Germany games" means the game in Astana.... are we supposed to be satisfied with that too?


We've declined in competitive games because our golden generation are getting older and more recently retiring, the players coming through are of a much lower standard. That's the key reason for less impressive results rather than somehow the managers ability to manage degrading.
Our last 5 games contained the 2 best teams in the world and 2 others who are certainly in the top 10. The last was an unconvincing away win against a team that has already taken points from a competitor, want to tell me about all those Irish teams in the past who traveled to difficult venues and won comfortably? I can wait.

An away win over there was more than Austria could achieve so yes, you are.

The group will be decided with the games against Sweden and Austria, we could give ourselves a bonus by taking points against Germany and making life more difficult for ourselves by dropping points to the bottom 2 but so far neither has happened so we're exactly where we expected to be albeit with more hysterics. Nothing will change unless we diverge from that path, the sport is played on the pitch and not in tabloid columns or message boards. Sorry to disappoint.

[Murfinator]

I think you're too focused on results over performances.

Last night was coming. Kazakhstan was a massive wake-up call, but an awful performance has occurred again. The notion that we should sit back and see if it happens yet again is wrong. The fact is the performances have been going downhill for the last couple of years (and I know we've lost our best players). Proper management - from the FAI in this instance - should be pro-active, not reactive. Waiting until after we play like the last five games a couple more times and then calling for change would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I genuinely fear you may be figuring we should be doing better after Tuesday's game.

I believe we have a very poor team and Trap is attempting to get the most out of a limited group. Focusing on performance is somewhat futile since the vast majority of teams have better skilled players than we do these days, they'll outplay us. Regardless of who's in charge its a given that both Sweden and Austria will outplay us, I don't like that but thats the situation we're in with the low caliber of players at our disposal. We'll have to scrap, cling on and take our luck when we get it if we're to get out of this group.

On the FAI, they gave him a new contract at the end of the last campaign because they were satisfied with the job he was doing. They'll have looked upon qualifying for the Euro's as a bonus and not judged him on what happened there. Since then he got a respectable away draw with Serbia, an unimpressive away win with Kazakhstan and a hammering to the 2nd best team in the world. They're not going to be pressing panic buttons or u-turning their position because of those 3 results. Why would they? They'll have expected 6 points from the first 3 games and they'll probably get that.
Why would they be concerned? Russia did something similar to us early in the last campaign which we spared our blushes a little with some undeserved consolations but they were a much weaker side than Germany and we recovered from that. Business games are coming up later in the campaign, he'll as always be judged on those.