Where to now for Bray Wanderers

[Albatross]

I have opened this thread to continue some of the interesting ideas that were being discussed in the now closed thread. All comments on the topic are appreciated.


Yeah i would like to know as well. My honest opinion having been following Bray since the mid 80's is that it's a closed shop with more or less the same persons pulling the strings behind the scences.

Would be interesting to know if the Supporters Club we want a seat on the board.

[Dove]

Roo69 and Albatross, have both raised valid concerns.
The current board are, E Cox and J O’Neill

The filed accounts show that E Cox owns shares of 4194

The share capital is 817430 so the board own 0.5% of the shares.
Who owns the rest of the shares?
Why are they not on the board?
Are the board just a front for those really running the club?
Why the shyness?

Just a few of the questions that I’d love answers too.

I have to ask the question why the previous directors were never replaced, leaving two to run the show.

Serious issues are raised, which are not being debated or answered.

[KK77]

Would be interesting to know if the Supporters Club we want a seat on the board.

You would like to think they would but i would have my thoughts any of them would want to rock the boat with the powers that be behind the scences.

I really think the free season ticket situation needs to be looked at. It's a disgrace that they are being handed out. People moan and crib about locals not supporting the club while claiming their love for the club yet these same people are taking free season tickets. I know for a fact that PD was handing them out himself. Now that beggers belief.

[Dove]

As a long time supporter of LOI and Bray I find the comments of Albatross interesting. As a supporter I would think it is a good idea for supporters to join the board, and I would consider it. Any other supporters interested? FCB as Bray not Barca with local involvement? Over to you/

KK77 please say more on 'rocking the boat' of the powers that be!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do you mean?

[starryknight]

I really think the free season ticket situation needs to be looked at. It's a disgrace that they are being handed out. People moan and crib about locals not supporting the club while claiming their love for the club yet these same people are taking free season tickets. I know for a fact that PD was handing them out himself. Now that beggers belief.[/QUOTE]

There are a few people that think they own the club and that it is their private fiefdom. What about the next generation, when will the supporters be given a say or will we just have more of the same?

[Albatross]

Roo69 and Albatross, have both raised valid concerns.
The current board are, E Cox and J O’Neill

The filed accounts show that E Cox owns shares of 4194

The share capital is 817430 so the board own 0.5% of the shares.
Who owns the rest of the shares?
Why are they not on the board?
Are the board just a front for those really running the club?
Why the shyness?

Just a few of the questions that I’d love answers too.


Since you ask the question I did a bit of digging online in the companies office and I came across these companies who according to the B5 forms on file own around 25% Bray Wanderers

Mercer Investment Company 161629 shares

HR Holfeld Limited 34350 shares

They are both registered at the same address in Stillorgan

[starryknight]

This thread is supposed to be about 'where to now for Bray Wanderers' so main questions are who owns the club, what have they done with it and what are they going to bring to it going forward.

[Albatross]

This thread is supposed to be about 'where to now for Bray Wanderers' so main questions are who owns the club, what have they done with it and what are they going to bring to it going forward.

The only people that can answer that are the directors of the club and we are not going to hear the answers here. That's why it would be good to have a supporters representative on the board.

The board have always claimed that they are only custodians of the club and to keep it alive for future generations.

The club was held as an example to other LOI clubs as to how to a club should be run, that was under the previous board of which there is now only one member left.
Begs the question why get rid of a board if this was the case?

[starryknight]

The usual story I guess, someone didn't like someone, didn't want them on the board, so kick them out, come on somebody must have the full story on how the board members were creamed, lets get it out in the open

[KR's Post]

With the game being live on friday lets be honest the home crowd wont be the same as a normal game. Why dont the club offer half price or discounted tickets to all supporters who attend the game??? Might get few more in that will spend on gift shop or lotto or sweets etc!!

[Captain2007]

HR Holfeld Limited 34350 shares

Richard Holfeld has been involved with the club since late eighties, he negotiated a bonus for winning the cup in 1990 with the players, not too sure if he is still involved today.

[starryknight]

HR Holfeld Limited 34350 shares

Richard Holfeld has been involved with the club since late eighties, he negotiated a bonus for winning the cup in 1990 with the players, not too sure if he is still involved today.

Do you mean he actually put up the bonus himself fro the players frm his own pocket. Is that how he got the shares?

[Dove]

Starryknight asked to come back to the subject ‘Where to now for Bray Wanderers’

Albatross has uncovered the largest shareholder is R Holfeld.
We have learnt that the current board has only 0.5% ownership, so clearly they are not in any position to make strategic decisions or development plans.

Albatross has asked for the Supporters to get involved on the board (any thoughts on this)

I think Captain2007 may have his facts wrong, as my memory of 1990 does not recall R Holfeld at the club.

Albatross has made the point that under the last board the club was held as a LOI example club. So why have they gone?


So where to now for Bray Wanderers?
Where do the current owners see the club developing over the next 3-5years.
What is the plan/strategy?

As a Bray Wanderers supporter, I think the idea of Albatross of Supporter involvement at board level is bang on.

Any ideas out there on this?

[Albatross]

HR Holfeld Limited 34350 shares

Richard Holfeld has been involved with the club since late eighties, he negotiated a bonus for winning the cup in 1990 with the players, not too sure if he is still involved today.

It's more likely that it was the 1999 cup win as he didn't squire shares until 2005

[peadar1987]

I think a lot more transparency from the board is needed. There's nothing specific out there about a development plan for the club, for example, just some vague stuff. I'd like to see specific, measurable, achievable goals for the club out there on the website, at the very least, preferably all over the town, showing the club has ambition and intends on achieving things.

[starryknight]

Transparency that would be good. That Mercer Investment Company holding all those shares in the club, a quick look at the Companies Registration Office shows that it dosn't exist, hasn't files accounts in ages!



Type
Company


Number
75379


Name
MERCER INVESTMENT COMPANY


Address
2-4, MERVILLE ROAD,
STILLORGAN,
CO. DUBLIN.


Registered
13/05/1980


Status
Dissolved

Effective date: 06/11/1990


Last AR Date
23/10/1981


Next AR Date
23/10/2002


Last Accounts to Date
Not Available

[Albatross]

I think a lot more transparency from the board is needed. There's nothing specific out there about a development plan for the club, for example, just some vague stuff. I'd like to see specific, measurable, achievable goals for the club out there on the website, at the very least, preferably all over the town, showing the club has ambition and intends on achieving things.

Agree completely, here are a few ideas I'm just throwing out for discussion

Maximum term of office (e.g. 3 years) for Directors then they must resign and if they wish seek re-election

Maximum term of office for President (e.g. 5 years) even the President of Ireland has to seek re-election

Position of Chairman should be rotated annually among the directors or even better still an independent chairman from outside the club.

Position on the board for a supporters club representative.

The club needs to actively engage with the people of Bray to make it more community based.

A business plan produced and updated annually and presented to the AGM, where there are supporters club representatives.

Negotiate a 99 year lease on the ground with the Council.

Use of the ground for other activities.

I can believe the on the day of the Airshow the club are not using the ground to run a concert for example.

Farmers Market on Saurday

Car boot Sales

Plan to upgrade the toilet facilities at the ground.

I’m sure the people of Bray are not bereft of ideas but has anyone at the club ever listened

[Roo69]

Agree completely, here are a few ideas I'm just throwing out for discussion

Maximum term of office (e.g. 3 years) for Directors then they must resign and if they wish seek re-election

Maximum term of office for President (e.g. 5 years) even the President of Ireland has to seek re-election

Position of Chairman should be rotated annually among the directors or even better still an independent chairman from outside the club.

Position on the board for a supporters club representative.

The club needs to actively engage with the people of Bray to make it more community based.

A business plan produced and updated annually and presented to the AGM, where there are supporters club representatives.

Negotiate a 99 year lease on the ground with the Council.

Use of the ground for other activities.

I can believe the on the day of the Airshow the club are not using the ground to run a concert for example.

Farmers Market on Saurday

Car boot Sales

Plan to upgrade the toilet facilities at the ground.

I’m sure the people of Bray are not bereft of ideas but has anyone at the club ever listened

I tried a few of these things before during my time at the club... Looked into the possibility of holding concerts in the Carlisle, Insurance was mental ! Also had the idea of an open air cinema during the summer months but again was held back by insurance and before the council tried it we mulled over an ice rink in november/ december / january but the price was way out of the club's league at the time. Think it was about 250k at the time if not more !

Car boot sale has been tried within the last year and didn't work out as far as i know and we looked into a farmers market at once stage too

[lowflyingseagul]

clubhouse with a decent bar was the best idea but that money disappeared somewhere

[peadar1987]

Fundraising campaign for that could be a decent way of getting the club's name out there and raising awareness, while getting money together for the project.

[Albatross]

Transparency that would be good. That Mercer Investment Company holding all those shares in the club, a quick look at the Companies Registration Office shows that it dosn't exist, hasn't files accounts in ages!



Type
Company


Number
75379


Name
MERCER INVESTMENT COMPANY


Address
2-4, MERVILLE ROAD,
STILLORGAN,
CO. DUBLIN.


Registered
13/05/1980


Status
Dissolved

Effective date: 06/11/1990


Last AR Date
23/10/1981


Next AR Date
23/10/2002


Last Accounts to Date
Not Available





The consequences of strike-off/dissolution for a company are as follows:


It ceases to exist as a legal person,
If it continues to trade, its shareholders and officers are trading without the protection of limited liability,
The assets of the company are vested in the Minister for Finance and are therefore the property of the state by virtue of Section 28 of the State Property Act, 1954.
Companies that wish to continue trading and deal with their assets will therefore require restoration to the register. There is no provision to restore a company that has been dissolved in excess of 20 years.


A couple of questions come to mind here

Is the Minister for Finance now part owner of Bray Wanderers.

How did a company dissolved in 1990 buy shares in Bray Wanderers in 2005.

[Albatross]

I tried a few of these things before during my time at the club... Looked into the possibility of holding concerts in the Carlisle, Insurance was mental ! Also had the idea of an open air cinema during the summer months but again was held back by insurance and before the council tried it we mulled over an ice rink in november/ december / january but the price was way out of the club's league at the time. Think it was about 250k at the time if not more !

Car boot sale has been tried within the last year and didn't work out as far as i know and we looked into a farmers market at once stage too

Cinema and Skating Rink are two great ideas, amazed how much it costs for insurance. I would have thought that the club already has Public Liability Insurance to protect themselves. I've no doubt the there were insurance claims as a result of the wall collapses and the club must have been covered. Would that insurance not cover them for running these events?

[Roo69]

A major problem the club have is getting people to help with these projects. It's always the same small bunch of people that do everything for the club. Not enough new faces willing to help with fundraising projects like this. We have about 20 people that try do everything, it's just not enough. I would suggest that if people do want to see the club progress and try improve on what we have then put your ideas together and some sort of plan in place, what they involve, how much it could possibly raise etc... and approach the club saying that we have a group together willing to run a specific project to raise money for a specific project and that when the funds are raised the group will pay for it.

For example, how much would it be to build a decent clubhouse with bar, function room ????? Your probably talking the guts of 100k i would imagine. That's a whole lot of fundraising to be done, but if a group of people came together and put a plan in place and recruited people to help with different fundraising ideas then im sure it could be achieved within a year or so... Once the money is in place go get quotes, pick the best value and pay directly for it instead of giving it to the club to pay...

[peadar1987]

A major problem the club have is getting people to help with these projects. It's always the same small bunch of people that do everything for the club. Not enough new faces willing to help with fundraising projects like this. We have about 20 people that try do everything, it's just not enough. I would suggest that if people do want to see the club progress and try improve on what we have then put your ideas together and some sort of plan in place, what they involve, how much it could possibly raise etc... and approach the club saying that we have a group together willing to run a specific project to raise money for a specific project and that when the funds are raised the group will pay for it.

For example, how much would it be to build a decent clubhouse with bar, function room ????? Your probably talking the guts of 100k i would imagine. That's a whole lot of fundraising to be done, but if a group of people came together and put a plan in place and recruited people to help with different fundraising ideas then im sure it could be achieved within a year or so... Once the money is in place go get quotes, pick the best value and pay directly for it instead of giving it to the club to pay...

Is this the sort of thing the Trust were going to be getting involved with?

Perhaps a way of doing it might be to link up with a University, get a group of marketing, business and management students together, get them to try and organise it as a project. As far as I know, Unis are crying out for link-ups that give "real-world" experience to their students, and having something like that to your name would look great on a CV once you graduated.

I think it would really benefit the club to be more at the heart of the community, even in non footballing related matters, just to get people through the gates and thinking and talking about the club, which is why the ice rink, open-air cinema and farmers' market are such great ideas.

[Roo69]

Is this the sort of thing the Trust were going to be getting involved with?

Perhaps a way of doing it might be to link up with a University, get a group of marketing, business and management students together, get them to try and organise it as a project. As far as I know, Unis are crying out for link-ups that give "real-world" experience to their students, and having something like that to your name would look great on a CV once you graduated.

I think it would really benefit the club to be more at the heart of the community, even in non footballing related matters, just to get people through the gates and thinking and talking about the club, which is why the ice rink, open-air cinema and farmers' market are such great ideas.

The very thing we were going to do, got a group together but 1 by 1 people stopped being involved, launched it and only about 10/15 people signed up...

Great idea about linking in with a college, defo something worth looking into there i feel...

[Dove]

This is a GREAT suggestion.
I am sure there is ample third level talent that would love the challenge of a Case Study to come up with a proper Business and Marketing Plan for Bray Wanderers, that could become the Blueprint for the future direction.

Perhaps UCD, DIT, College of Marketing etc. would take this in board.
Perhaps the current board could look at this suggestion!!!!!!!

Bray needs a 3-5 year Business Marketing plan, to show the direction for both on and off the field development, and this would encourage fresh new blood into the club and onto the board.

Once again-GREAT idea.

[peadar1987]

The very thing we were going to do, got a group together but 1 by 1 people stopped being involved, launched it and only about 10/15 people signed up...

Great idea about linking in with a college, defo something worth looking into there i feel...

Sorry to hear that, must be very disheartening.

I'd love to be more involved, but haven't really lived in Ireland for the past three years.

[Albatross]

Great idea about linking in with a college, defo something worth looking into there i feel...

I agree, anything that will further the BW cause is worth looking at. These are the sort of ideas the club needs to take on board.

[Albatross]

how much would it be to build a decent clubhouse with bar, function room ????? Your probably talking the guts of 100k i would imagine. That's a whole lot of fundraising to be done, but if a group of people came together and put a plan in place and recruited people to help with different fundraising ideas then im sure it could be achieved within a year or so... Once the money is in place go get quotes, pick the best value and pay directly for it instead of giving it to the club to pay...

I have spoken to builders in the past and 100K would certainly do the job and in the current economic climate the cost of building is dramatically reduced. The is also the possibility of asking local people e.g. to give of their time to help a community project. This could reduce the costs.

Nobody knows how much the club got from the Reading transfer but 100K is a pittance to a Premier Division club, could the money not be used for building a clubhouse or will it disappear down the big black hole it normally does. Maybe the club got nothing? It would be interesting to know what the deal was but I don't expect we will ever find out.

[Dove]

Peadar1987 , who is abroad would like to be more involved. There should be a forum for Wanderers Abroad so that they can help and support the club, even from afar. This could form part of the Business Marketing Plan, ideas to get people living away more involved.

[starryknight]

Correct me if I am wrong but did the current Chairman not have a big run in with the FAI and is generally considered non grata in the HQ or is that just an urban myth without foundation and how can the club move forward if so?

[Roo69]

I have spoken to builders in the past and 100K would certainly do the job and in the current economic climate the cost of building is dramatically reduced. The is also the possibility of asking local people e.g. to give of their time to help a community project. This could reduce the costs.

Nobody knows how much the club got from the Reading transfer but 100K is a pittance to a Premier Division club, could the money not be used for building a clubhouse or will it disappear down the big black hole it normally does. Maybe the club got nothing? It would be interesting to know what the deal was but I don't expect we will ever find out.


LoI clubs like Bray live week to week so i would have thought that money has gone towards keeping the club afloat for the season and during the close season.

[Albatross]

LoI clubs like Bray live week to week so i would have thought that money has gone towards keeping the club afloat for the season and during the close season.

Maybe the new board will use the “windfall” to clear the bank debt. Its probably costing the club 20K per annum. In relation to your comment, the club has never needed a “windfall” to get from season to season so why should it now unless the club is in deeper trouble than we think

[Albatross]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishsunsport/irishfootball/4552560/Devo-to-say-bye.html

Now Devo is leaving Bray Wanderers too? The wheels are coming off the wagon, what's happening at the club? Is there anyone in charge?

He also mentions financial difficulties so all the questions being asked on this blog seem to be accurate.

[Seagull]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/irishsun/irishsunsport/irishfootball/4552560/Devo-to-say-bye.html

Now Devo is leaving Bray Wanderers too? The wheels are coming off the wagon, what's happening at the club? Is there anyone in charge?

He also mentions financial difficulties so all the questions being asked on this blog seem to be accurate.
No, he doesn't mention financial difficulties, the report stuck that in there. What he did say is 'The club has been fantastic, there are great people in it'. Devo's not getting any younger so surely it wouldn't be any great surprise for him to step down as manager. 'The wheels are coming off the wagon' seems like a way over-the-top assessment of the situation.

[Dove]

The Seagulls nearly went out of existence over the winter because of financial problems


Well Seagull, the above was from that article.

There are serious problems at BWFC that are being ignored.
Perhaps Devo has seen the writing on the wall!!!!!!!!

[peadar1987]

No, he doesn't mention financial difficulties, the report stuck that in there. What he did say is 'The club has been fantastic, there are great people in it'. Devo's not getting any younger so surely it wouldn't be any great surprise for him to step down as manager. 'The wheels are coming off the wagon' seems like a way over-the-top assessment of the situation.

Indeed, he already retired once, only to come back when things went pear-shaped under Gormley. I thought the idea was always for Keith Long to take over from him after a season or two, so Devo leaving is hardly a huge surprise.

[Seagull]

The Seagulls nearly went out of existence over the winter because of financial problems


Well Seagull, the above was from that article.

There are serious problems at BWFC that are being ignored.
Perhaps Devo has seen the writing on the wall!!!!!!!!
That line was not a quote from Devo, it was inserted by a Sun reporter. The Sun, oh yes it must be true so, they wouldn't lie, would they!

[Captain2007]

Indeed, he already retired once, only to come back when things went pear-shaped under Gormley. I thought the idea was always for Keith Long to take over from him after a season or two, so Devo leaving is hardly a huge surprise.

Well things must be absolutely dire, Gormley back on the coaching staff, BWFC not doing themselves any favours bringing him back, I can't see myself re-newing season ticket if this is the road they are taking, sad to say I am supporting since 1985 but enough is enough.

[Dove]

Is the Minister for Finance now part owner of Bray Wanderers?



How did a company dissolved in 1990 buy shares in Bray Wanderers in 2005.


Is that material for ‘Gift Grub’ sketch....... John Delaney, Michael Noonan and Devo!!!!!!!!


You could laugh, if the situation was not so serious..................


These are very serious questions, and they need to be resolved by the club, as this would concern any potential new investor.

Let us address the main subject: Where to now for Bray Wanderers?

[lowflyingseagul]

well gormley has recently done his coaching badges

[Albatross]

well gormley has recently done his coaching badges

In fairness to Devo he has done his bit in the last couple of years with meager financial resources while ridiculous amounts of money was spent on players during Eddie's reign. If Eddie can do the same job now is open to question but I for one would give him a chance.

[lowflyingseagul]

yeah i think the first time was an out an out gamble that didn't pay off

[Albatross]

yeah i think the first time was an out an out gamble that didn't pay off

Yes a gamble, but a gamble with money the club did not have or could not afford. That was not Eddie's fault, it's up to the manager to ask for the money but the board to approve it. I suppose it's being wise in hindsight but the club can't say it wasn't warned.

[Albatross]

The President Mr Philip Hannigan who has also recently been appointed to the role of “Development of Enterprise” at Bray Economic Think Tank (BETT), will hopefully be able to bring some benefits to the club but will be more successful than with previous announcements.

Bray People
By Keith Ryan Reporter
Thursday March 07 2002
Seagulls chart a path for successBray Wanderers chairman, Philip Hannigan, has told fans to expect a dramatic transformation when the JCBs move into the Carlisle Grounds currently the worst grounds in the National League at the end of the current season.
He has revealed that he favours a design for the covered stand with a roof shaped like a soaring seagull's wings.
His preference for the radical design emerged on Monday night at a supporters' forum where fans voiced their views on the direction to be taken by Bray Wanderers.

Bray People
By Mary FOGARTY
Wednesday September 16 2009

Seagulls soar with €5m planWANDERERS PLAN NEW STADIUM AND RETAIL DEVELOPMENT Bray Wanderers Football Club is planning a €5m development that could attract a major supermarket to the Carlisle Grounds. The development would also mean the construction of a new stadium on the existing site.
Still in the very early stages, with a planning application yet to be lodged, the project could be completed within 12 months of a successful application.
Club President Philip Hannigan, a former chairman and owner of Hard Metal, is spearheading the scheme and has been working on its inception since December. A scale model and pictures will be ready by next week.
Mr. Hannigan has been involved in negotiations with a well-known tenant and hopes to conclude those and make an agreement before releasing the name of the company. ‘The proposal will include a number of small retail outlets and one large shop as well as 80 parking spaces,’ he explained.
He said that the development is by the club itself not an outside investor and will enhance both the town of Bray and the future of the club itself. ‘Plans were presented to the board two weeks ago as well as to employees and the supporters club, all of whom are generally happy with the move, said Mr. Hannigan.

[peadar1987]

The very thing we were going to do, got a group together but 1 by 1 people stopped being involved, launched it and only about 10/15 people signed up...

Great idea about linking in with a college, defo something worth looking into there i feel...

Were you going to suggest this to someone at the club? I don't mind doing it but it would probably have more weight coming from someone they actually know.

I reckon the idea of having a load of uni student minions putting together the advertising campaigns, getting publicity out there, organising events and promotions could be a win-win. Unfortunately I doubt UCD would get on board, seeing as they already have an LOI team and all, maybe DIT, or even Trinity.

[KK77]

What about Pat Devlin throwing a few quid into the club from the money he makes out of the English game from the Irish players he sends over from the Irish leagues? He could easily stump up 100k to build a new clubhouse for the club.

[Albatross]

Looks like the club got £60,000 for Pierce Sweeney which is €75,000. Which is a large windfall for a club like Bray.


http://hobnob.royals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114909


I think our net spend is even less at 3.26M.

We have added the following to the squad:
Garath McCleary – from Notts Forest (Championship) on a Bosman free transfer
Pavel Pogrebnyak – from Stuttgart (Bundesliga) on a Bosman free transfer
Danny Guthrie – from Newcastle (Premier League) on a Bosman free transfer
Pierce Sweeney – from Bray Wanderers (Ireland) for a fee of - £60,000
Nicky Shorey – from West Brom (Premier League) signed on a free transfer
Adrian Mariappa – from Watford (Championship) signed for a fee of - £2,500,000
Chris Gunter – from Nottingham Forest (Championship) signed for a fee of £2,300,000
Stuart Taylor – from Manchester City (Premier League) signed on a free transfer

But we sold Mattieu Manset (aged 22) – sold to FC Sion (Swiss Premier) for a fee of £750,000
Michail Antonio (aged 22) – sold to Sheffield Wednesday (Championship) for a fee of £850,000

Net spend £3,260,000 and we most likely got another £800K sell on fee for Gylfi on top.

Having said that Guthrie, Pog and McCleary all look like great signings - so who cares if we did it on the cheap.

[peadar1987]

What about Pat Devlin throwing a few quid into the club from the money he makes out of the English game from the Irish players he sends over from the Irish leagues? He could easily stump up 100k to build a new clubhouse for the club.

He could probably do that, but there's no reason he should have to. Do you give huge chunks of your own personal money to the club as a gift?

[starryknight]

I can think of three or four people who did give huge chunks of their personal money to the club as loans only to be shafted later by the club. Its a story waiting to be told. Stay tuned.