Where to now for Bray Wanderers

[KK77]

He could probably do that, but there's no reason he should have to. Do you give huge chunks of your own personal money to the club as a gift?

No i wouldn't have the money to waste.

[Dove]

Lets take stock. Where to now for Bray Wanderers?

We have had valuble contributions and suggestions.

We have uncovered share ownership issues.

Peader1987 would like to approach the club.

Quote: ‘I don't mind doing it but it would probably have more weight coming from someone they actually know’

Albatross has uncovered two development plans in the past that came to nothing.

We have talk and suggestions of a New Club house, and we have suggestions of Third Level marketing getting involved to draw up a Business Marketing Plan.

The club should consider how to put the Reading transfer money to use.

We have suggestions of a member of the supporters club joining the board.

How about a group of Concerned Bray Supporters (CBS)to meet with the board in an open forum, to get ideas for the future, and to use some of the ideas put forward.



Perhaps the supporters can join Mr Hannigan to bring his previous ideas to fruition.


Any takers on this?

[starryknight]

Concerned Bray Supporters
Isnt is supposed to be about the supporters in the first place but are there any supporters for this club to turn up for any meeting. Still worth a try. Book a room in the Royal Hotel for an open forum but would anybody come?

[peadar1987]

Concerned Bray Supporters
Isnt is supposed to be about the supporters in the first place but are there any supporters for this club to turn up for any meeting. Still worth a try. Book a room in the Royal Hotel for an open forum but would anybody come?

You'd only need 5 or 6 people to physically be there. They could relay questions, suggestions and concerns from other people that had been sent in by email or twitter. If you could set up a gmail account, post a few posters around town saying to email anything to that, collate and filter them, and put the questions to the board. It would also help to ask a few randomers in the street what their opinion of the club was, and what it would take to get them through the gates and involved. That's the sort of thing the university minions would be able to do if they ever get established.

[Dove]

Peader1987, great idea, and it should be developed.
Perhaps the local hotel would donate the room FOC as a gesture of support.

Did anyone hear or see the Study/Thesis by a group of students (either DIT or DCU) that looked at expanding the LOI to the US and Irish Diaspora. Should be published, if we can find it.

I understand it was a very detailed report/study and along the lines of what you suggest.
They have oooodles of energy and ideas. Lets tap it for Bray.

Perhaps these guys could attend such a public meeting.

Any more ideas to develop this blue print document for a Strategic Business Plan for Bray?

[Mr A]

I was involved in a strategic review for Harps a couple of years ago and spoke to a lot of clubs on both sides of the border. If any of you are interested in having a read of it drop me a PM with your email address.

[starryknight]

Nice idea lads but BW directors will never attend a public forum in case they have to face any questions on their performance. The only plans they have for the future is more of the same where Devo can use the place to scout for his next young talent and transfer fee and the rest can hang in there with no plans only to survive any way they can. Very sad.

[Roo69]

He could probably do that, but there's no reason he should have to. Do you give huge chunks of your own personal money to the club as a gift?

Well said. Thing is though that he has already and has done for many years invest in the club. He also takes no wage from the club, not many people know that and slate him but the bloke has Bray in his blood and only wants what is best for the club at the end of the day.

Just in relation to the last post. The club called a meeting with about 30 supporters last November/December, the supporters to help do everything for the club. It was to talk about what a bad state the club was in and that if things didnt get better they would have to hold a general public meeting in Bray. Thankfully the club got anew sponsor on board and it didn't get to that stage. But it is just constant fire fighting and until they sort it out behind the scenes then we can't move forward IMO.

If you want to pla an open Wanderers fans meeting then you need to let people know about it, and sharpish !!!!!! once the season is over people tens to but LoI on the back burner and won't attend if its a month or so after the season. I'd be pretty sure one of the hotels would offer you a room free of charge. You just need to get a group of people together to plan and run it. No point is just asking people to turn up and have a bitching session, it needs proper structure and someone to lead it from the begining

[Dove]

Roo69. In my opinion you are right, and you are the man. Perhaps you could put your good self forward to harness a public meeting. Perhaps the Royal would gladly give over a room.

You are right, it should NOT be a bitching session, and to do that you should have clear agenda from the start, and perhaps use this to build up ideas.

You need to look at short term plan (season 2013) and Longer Term strategic plan (perhaps 3-5 years) that would include Stadium Development. You should take on board some of the suggestions made, such as getting a Third Level group involved to help shape the plan. The BTC needs to be on board, and you also need to run the idea of a Supporter joining the board.

Perhaps you could consider asking the President of the Club to join you at the meeting, as he seems to have had some contacts in the past on development ideas.

Any other ideas on how this could be shaped and driven?

Over to you all!!!!

[Albatross]

I was involved in a strategic review for Harps a couple of years ago and spoke to a lot of clubs on both sides of the border. If any of you are interested in having a read of it drop me a PM with your email address.

A strategic plan was prepared for Bray Wanderers in 2009/2010 but a bit like a Government report it just gathers dust on a shelf.

[Roo69]

Roo69. In my opinion you are right, and you are the man. Perhaps you could put your good self forward to harness a public meeting. Perhaps the Royal would gladly give over a room.

You are right, it should NOT be a bitching session, and to do that you should have clear agenda from the start, and perhaps use this to build up ideas.

You need to look at short term plan (season 2013) and Longer Term strategic plan (perhaps 3-5 years) that would include Stadium Development. You should take on board some of the suggestions made, such as getting a Third Level group involved to help shape the plan. The BTC needs to be on board, and you also need to run the idea of a Supporter joining the board.

Perhaps you could consider asking the President of the Club to join you at the meeting, as he seems to have had some contacts in the past on development ideas.

Any other ideas on how this could be shaped and driven?

Over to you all!!!!

I've tried with stuff like this before without success so i wouldn't be willing to put myself forward, i have feck all free time with work and helping run my own football club. I would guarantee that if this was to go ahead that the club/directors would attend

[starryknight]

Here is a link to that plan for Wanderers, done by the then Finance Director, wonder what happened to him?
http://www.sendspace.com/file/bno5lz

[Albatross]

A strategic plan was prepared for Bray Wanderers in 2009/2010 but a bit like a Government report it just gathers dust on a shelf.

This was part of the strategic document that was produced

LONGER TERM VISION

Building on the short term objectives outlined in this document, the Club has a longer term vision of what we should strive to achieve beyond 2012.



Bray Wanderers fielding a predominantly Wicklow/ South County Dublin side in the League of Ireland capable of winning the Premier Division by the year 2016.




Bray Wanderers being a consistently successful and top football club in Ireland, representing the country regularly in Europe.




Have a new Stadium and a Soccer Centre of Excellence, with pacification from all soccer bodies in the County, where all participating young players will aspire to playing with the Senior Soccer Team.




Have the Club and new facilities as a vibrant and key focal point for the community




Bray Wanderers should be widely recognized as among the best run and most progressive in the country.




Bray Wanderers should attain and maintain a strong financial position and be able to make a positive contribution / return to the community.




Bray Wanderers should provide leadership and strong support to a Wicklow Football Development Partnership.

[starryknight]

I hope he meant 'participation from all soccer bodies' instead of 'pacification from all soccer bodies', still given the problems between BW and Joeys you just neveer know it might need pacification.

[Albatross]

I hope he meant 'participation from all soccer bodies' instead of 'pacification from all soccer bodies', still given the problems between BW and Joeys you just neveer know it might need pacification.

Microsoft grammar and spell check didn't work in this case although it could have been a Freaudian slip too.

[Albatross]

Where to now for Bray Wanderers?

It would appear they are going to Bray District Court, although not quite yet. Tomorrow's case has been postponed again but I suppose it's a matter of watch this space.

[starryknight]

What the ffff, who is going to court with BW, don't they know they havn't got a snowballs chance with them

[Captain2007]

I've tried with stuff like this before without success so i wouldn't be willing to put myself forward, i have feck all free time with work and helping run my own football club. I would guarantee that if this was to go ahead that the club/directors would attend

What about the Albatross as a leader, seems to know more about the running of the club then anyone else on this forum or maybe there would be a conflict of interest ?????

[starryknight]

What about the Albatross as a leader, seems to know more about the running of the club then anyone else on this forum or maybe there would be a conflict of interest ?????

Good idea, for leader for the revolution. What about the staff of Wanderers who must be following this debate, what do they think they are doing on the job, running to court wtf?

[KK77]

I second Roo69 for this role. His undoubted love and passion for all things Bray Wanderers make him the outstanding candidate for this role.

[peadar1987]

Roo's already done plenty for the club. It would be fantastic if he would take on something like this, but it's fair enough that he's reluctant to.

I think the club should have regular fans' forums, to be honest. There are 30,000 people in Bray, 130,000 in Wicklow. There are bound to be hundreds of great ideas knocking around there, it would be foolish of the club not to use a free resource like that.

On the person to take charge of this, obviously I'm not really ideal, I think it needs someone who the board can actually put a face to, but I'm in, and happy to do whatever I can from this side of the Irish Sea.

[starryknight]

Roo's already done plenty for the club. It would be fantastic if he would take on something like this, but it's fair enough that he's reluctant to.

I think the club should have regular fans' forums, to be honest. There are 30,000 people in Bray, 130,000 in Wicklow. There are bound to be hundreds of great ideas knocking around there, it would be foolish of the club not to use a free resource like that.


Nice idea but Roo and Albatross would be wasting their time. I hear on the grapevine that there has been a lethal purge in BW over the past few months.
The Slevins have gone.
The financial controller and company secretary have gone.
Other directors have gone.
A group of investors have gone.
And no statement from BW on any of this.
It is hard to imagine that all these people were doing bad things in Wanderers.
When you loose so many people in a short period of time from a club you could rightly guess that something has happened to set off this reaction and that someone there is pulling the strings and dictating how the ship is going to be run. Hard to look at the funny side of it but that is one big lot of people who ended up blindfolded and walking the gangplank.

[Roo69]

I second Roo69 for this role. His undoubted love and passion for all things Bray Wanderers make him the outstanding candidate for this role.

I'm in complete agreement with you, I am an outstanding candidate.

[Dove]

I'm in complete agreement with you, I am an outstanding candidate.


Roo69, go for it. To take a line from WW1, 'YOUR CLUB NEEDS YOU'

[KK77]

I'm in complete agreement with you, I am an outstanding candidate.

The only one!

[lowflyingseagul]

i'm going to the arctic circle next month , i could look for a roman abramovich type

[Albatross]

i'm going to the arctic circle next month , i could look for a roman abramovich type


Nice idea but Roo and Albatross would be wasting their time. I hear on the grapevine that there has been a lethal purge in BW over the past few months.
The Slevins have gone.
The financial controller and company secretary have gone.
Other directors have gone.
A group of investors have gone.
And no statement from BW on any of this.
It is hard to imagine that all these people were doing bad things in Wanderers.
When you loose so many people in a short period of time from a club you could rightly guess that something has happened to set off this reaction and that someone there is pulling the strings and dictating how the ship is going to be run. Hard to look at the funny side of it but that is one big lot of people who ended up blindfolded and walking the gangplank.


I wouldn't go there an oligarch type appears to be running the show, everyone obeys or gets sent to Siberia and the train is already full.

[KK77]

Nice idea but Roo and Albatross would be wasting their time. I hear on the grapevine that there has been a lethal purge in BW over the past few months.
The Slevins have gone.
The financial controller and company secretary have gone.
Other directors have gone.
A group of investors have gone.
And no statement from BW on any of this.
It is hard to imagine that all these people were doing bad things in Wanderers.
When you loose so many people in a short period of time from a club you could rightly guess that something has happened to set off this reaction and that someone there is pulling the strings and dictating how the ship is going to be run. Hard to look at the funny side of it but that is one big lot of people who ended up blindfolded and walking the gangplank.

Have the Slevins 100% gone? I heard awhile back that they planned to leave alright but heard nothing since. I do know they had become sick and tired of funding Bray. Totally understandable when they have families to support while certain other person/s have hole/s burning in their pockets but are way cuter than foxes to part with it for the love of Bray.

[churchtownroad]

I am looking for a copy or two for the Bray Wanderers v Reading match programme from 2 Sept 2012..Anyone with a spare copy please ?

[starryknight]

Have the Slevins 100% gone? I heard awhile back that they planned to leave alright but heard nothing since. I do know they had become sick and tired of funding Bray. Totally understandable when they have families to support while certain other person/s have hole/s burning in their pockets but are way cuter than foxes to part with it for the love of Bray.


I agree 100% with your comments. The Slevins have been among the greatest contributors to Wanderers. No individual has given more time, commitment, encouragement, fundraising and money than then they have. They kept the balance in the place and brought in new life and funds just when the club needed it. But believe it or not some people resented what they were doing with the club.



On a different topic. Here is a short imaginary exercise for you lads and lassies reading this forum to give your opinion on.

Imagine you are running a small football club.
You love the club and you will do anything to see it continue.
But there are ongoing money problems in the club. Somehow every time you look at the books there are always more costs than income.
You are given an offer from someone. It is a promise (only) to sort out the money problems for the club but to get this you must shaft some of your friends (Lets say in this fantasy you will have to set up your friends to loose something that cost then a lot).
Ok what are you going to do. Here are your possible options.

A. Shaft the friends and maybe get the promise to finance the club delivered.
B. Keep the friends and run the risk of the club going bust.



And there is one other option:
C. Keep the friends and expose the manipulator.




Just throwing it out there for you all to give a vote on.

Churchtownroad - try the club for a copy of the programme, there might be a bunch lying in a cornor there.

[Albatross]

I agree 100% with your comments. The Slevins have been among the greatest contributors to Wanderers. No individual has given more time, commitment, encouragement, fundraising and money than then they have. They kept the balance in the place and brought in new life and funds just when the club needed it. But believe it or not some people resented what they were doing with the club.

On a different topic. Here is a short imaginary exercise for you lads and lassies reading this forum to give your opinion on.

Imagine you are running a small football club.
You love the club and you will do anything to see it continue.
But there are ongoing money problems in the club. Somehow every time you look at the books there are always more costs than income.
You are given an offer from someone. It is a promise (only) to sort out the money problems for the club but to get this you must shaft some of your friends (Lets say in this fantasy you will have to set up your friends to loose something that cost then a lot).
Ok what are you going to do. Here are your possible options.

A. Shaft the friends and maybe get the promise to finance the club delivered.
B. Keep the friends and run the risk of the club going bust.
C. Keep the friends and expose the manipulator.



I vote for C

[Albatross]

What about the Albatross as a leader, seems to know more about the running of the club then anyone else on this forum or maybe there would be a conflict of interest ?????

I would be happy to take over and there would definitely be no conflict of interest but I doubt I would be acceptable to those running the club. I'm not a "YES" man and tell it like it is.

I haven't posted much recently but I've been busy trawling through the documents on the CRO web-site.

http://www.cro.ie/search/CompanySearch.aspx

A list of all the Companies filing is displayed. I have done some analysis on this so you don’t have to. It would also cost you quite a bit of money to purchase all these documents so I have done it so you don’t have to.

The first exciting installment will be on this blog tomorrow, find out who actually owns Bray Wanderers.

[starryknight]

WHO OWNS BRAY WANDERERS








COMPANY REGISTRATION OFFICE SUBMISSIONS



















Shares
Ownership
Appointed
Resigned
Appointed
Resigned







DIRECTOR

COMPANY SECRETARY




Aidan
O'Rourke
100000
12.20%
03/05/2006
11/10/2011





Alex
Hill
100000
12.20%
6064902






Eddie
Cox
4194
0.50%
Not available






Eddie
Slevin
1655
0.20%
Not available
10/06/2011

16/03/1998



Frank
Slevin
229067
28.00%
Not available
12/08/2011
01/12/2005
03/06/2008



George
Southern
100000
12.20%
03/05/2006
03/06/2010





HR
Holfeld(Richard)
34350
4.20%
16/06/1997
31/12/2006





John
Deering
18448
2.30%
01/06/1995
30/04/2012





Ian
Hume

0.00%
16/06/1997
31/12/2006





John
O'Brien
1650
0.20%







Jack
O'Neill

0.00%
16/02/2012






Mercer
Investment
167419
20.50%
16/06/1997
31/12/2006





Pat
Devlin
39747
4.90%
01/03/1999
31/12/2006





Pat
Lynch

0.00%
03/06/2008
17/06/2011
03/06/2008




Paul
Wallace

0.00%
16/06/1997
31/12/2006
16/03/1998
01/12/2005



Philip
Hannigan
20900
2.60%
Not available

















Total
Ordinary
817430

[starryknight]

Any corrections needed or is that correct?

[Dove]

Yes, previous posting are correct.
The Slevins have contributed enormously to Bray, and the club would not be the same without their wisdom and support.

The club is poorer without SLEVIN involvement.

The list of share ownership is interesting, and from some old programes I have noticed that all these gentleman where directors at some point!!!!!!

The question I’d like answered:
why have so many left , and if and when will they be replaced and by whom??

[Albatross]

Is Jack O'Neill not company secretary now, it would appear that the company has failed to file the resignation of Pat Lynch and appointment of Jack.

[starryknight]

I guess Braw Wanderers is one of those magic places with no less than two company secretaires. But what happened to Lynchie, any info on why he jumped ship? Was something fishy cooking?

[The Fox]

So who are Mercer, Alex Hill and George Southern?
Never heard of them?!

[starryknight]

So who are Mercer, Alex Hill and George Southern?
Never heard of them?!

Hill & Southern were two guys who stumped up a lot of cash for Wanderers in 2006 when Slevins needed it for the club.
Club has big bank debts and Revenue debts at the time.
Slevins could see club was in a tight financial cornor but managed to pull off a deal in a fair way to get cash into the club.
I hear that all the other shareholders were asked if they would put money in at that time, but none of them wanted to.

[Albatross]

So who are Mercer, Alex Hill and George Southern?
Never heard of them?!


Hill & Southern were two guys who stumped up a lot of cash for Wanderers
in 2006 when Slevins needed it for the club.Club has big bank debts and Revenue debts at the time.
Slevins could see club was in a tight financial cornor but managed to pull off a deal in a fair way
to get cash into the club. I hear that all the other shareholders were asked if they would put money
in at that time, but none of them wanted to.

Mercer is a "Dissolved" company and part of the Holfeld Group, Mr. Southern is a former director of Bray Wanderers.

BOARD MEMBERSHIP

1 Board between 1999 - 2006 Resigned


Eddie Cox



Eddie Slevin



Frank Slevin



John Deering



Ian Hume
31/12/2006


Pat Devlin
31/12/2006


Paul Wallace
31/12/2006


Richard Holfeld
31/12/2006




2 Board between 2007 - 2011


Eddie Cox



Eddie Slevin
10/06/2011


Frank Slevin
12/08/2011


John Deering
30/04/2012


Aidan O'Rourke
11/10/2011


George Southern
03/06/2010


Pat Lynch
17/06/2011




3 Current Board
Eddie Cox
Jack O'Neill

With all due respects to the two individuals it is obvious
that they are not running the show but it is also pretty obvious
who is. Why the reluctance in becoming directors and lurking
in the shadows. It still makes them legally "shadow directors"


Auditor Resignation
B47 NOTICE(LETTER) OF RESIGNATION OF AUDITOR 03/01/2012
Rogers & Co Replaced by Murnane & Associates

[starryknight]

This started off as a discussion on 'where to now for Bray Wanderers'. Are you pointing out that they are running out of directors and is this is one of the problems you see?
Must be a hard job to find people who want to help by becoming directors in Bray.

And just one more question what exactly is a 'shadow director' and how do you know when you have one?

[Albatross]

This started off as a discussion on 'where to now for Bray Wanderers'. Are you pointing out that they are running out of directors and is this is one of the problems you see?
Must be a hard job to find people who want to help by becoming directors in Bray.

And just one more question what exactly is a 'shadow director' and how do you know when you have one?

I know its a bit long-winded but I found this on the Institute of Directors web-site, as you can see they have a caveat in there but I would expect it's pretty accurate.

Q. What exactly is a shadow director?

A. Please note that IOD Ireland accepts no responsiblity for the legality or appropriateness of the below answer. It is the reader's responsibility to take appropriate legal advice before acting.

A shadow director is a person whose instructions are implemented by the other directors of the company (S.27 of the Companies Act 1990. Excepted from this definition are persons who give professional advice and directions to company directors). Such a person does not become a shadow director if only a single or small group of directors act in accordance with his/her instructions or directions. To be a shadow director he/she must direct and instruct the whole board and the board must act on his/her instructions on more than one occasion, over a period of time, and regularly.
Since the enactment of the 1990 Act, shadow directors have been regarded as the same as company directors. While not a member of the board of directors, a shadow director is significantly involved in the running of the company. From a distance, he/she dictates to someone who is an actual director how he/she wants the company to be managed.
Prior to 1990 the position of shadow director did not carry the same liabilities and obligations as that of the other directors. Now the position carries the same onerous duties across a range of areas including fraudulent or reckless trading. S.150 of the Companies Act 1990 made shadow directors liable to restriction in the event that he/she fails to act in accordance with the highest standards. S.138 of the 1990 Act amended S.297 of the principal Act and imposed liability on a shadow director who is deemed to have behaved in a reckless or fraudulent manner in his role as an officer of the company. As a result of this Act, a shadow director is under an obligation to disclose, in writing to the company, any interest he/she has in contracts, or proposed contracts, with the company. {S.27(3)}
Failure of a shadow director to disclose any involvement he/she may have in business carried out with the company of which he/she is a shadow director makes that person liable to prosecution by the Director of Corporate Enforcement.
It is not possible for a person to evade responsibility and liability by not being formally appointed a director if he/she comes within the definition of shadow director.
In general, it is very unsatisfactory for a board to be in a position where an individual can exercise such authority within the company without being an appointed member of the board, although he/she is, de facto, a member of the board.

[Captain2007]

[QUOTE=starryknight;1633641]
Must be a hard job to find people who want to help by becoming directors in Bray.


It must be very difficult, ex.player (legend) was recently asked would he like to come on board as a director, he turned down the invitation, looking at the information coming to light in this forum he probably made a wise decision.

Where to for Bray.... who knows !

[The Fox]

Mercer is a "Dissolved" company and part of the Holfeld Group, Mr. Southern is a former director of Bray Wanderers.


With all due respects to the two individuals it is obvious
that they are not running the show but it is also pretty obvious
who is. Why the reluctance in becoming directors and lurking
in the shadows. It still makes them legally "shadow directors"


Auditor Resignation
B47 NOTICE(LETTER) OF RESIGNATION OF AUDITOR 03/01/2012
Rogers & Co Replaced by Murnane & Associates

So who is pulling the strings??

[Captain2007]

So who is pulling the strings??

There is only one man left IMO....and it is known that he would love to take (Full) control of Bray Wanderers. The Current Director of Football Pat Devlin, Mr Bray Wanderers himself, the club could only benefit if he would take the reins, Pat has made a huge contribution with all of our success over the years both on and off the field.
Perhaps he may be the person to attract new blood on to the board ?

[starryknight]

There is only one man left IMO....and it is known that he would love to take (Full) control of Bray Wanderers. The Current Director of Football Pat Devlin, Mr Bray Wanderers himself, the club could only benefit if he would take the reins, Pat has made a huge contribution with all of our success over the years both on and off the field.
Perhaps he may be the person to attract new blood on to the board ?

He has done his bit and picked up a few players for his troubles.

[starryknight]

So who is pulling the strings??

A public forum is not the right place to say that someone is pulling strings and to give out their name without a proper full investigation.
If there is a suggestion that something has not been done right then it can only be investigated by the FAI.
If the FAI decide that there is a case to be answered they can then decide to name the individuals.
So for the moment there is no proper way to answer your question.

[Albatross]

There is only one man left IMO....and it is known that he would love to take (Full) control of Bray Wanderers. The Current Director of Football Pat Devlin, Mr Bray Wanderers himself, the club could only benefit if he would take the reins, Pat has made a huge contribution with all of our success over the years both on and off the field.
Perhaps he may be the person to attract new blood on to the board ?

I've no doubt that he would love to take full control of the club but that would involve buying out everyone's shareholding which is valued at about 800K. Firstly I don't know if he has that sort of money and secondly would he want to part with that sort of money. I presume he wouldn't be looking to get the club for nothing,that would be a bit unfair on all the individuals who put significant amounts of their money into the club to keep it going.

[Albatross]

So who is pulling the strings??

What did Deep Throat say in the film "All the Presidents Men"

No, I have to do this my way. You tell me what you know, and I'll confirm. I'll keep you in the right direction if I can, but that's all. Just... follow the money.

[Captain2007]

I've no doubt that he would love to take full control of the club but that would involve buying out everyone's shareholding which is valued at about 800K. Firstly I don't know if he has that sort of money and secondly would he want to part with that sort of money. I presume he wouldn't be looking to get the club for nothing,that would be a bit unfair on all the individuals who put significant amounts of their money into the club to keep it going.

How much did Ken Bates pay for Chelsea ? one penny...I would agree that it is unfair to the individuals who have so far kept the show on the road....I think they have gone as far as they can go without getting any return on their investment.