Catalonia march for independence

[culloty82]

1.5 million (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/catalan-independence-rally-barcelona) on the streets of Barcelona tonight, in a march demanding a vote on independence. Even among the nationalists, the ruling CiU just wants greater autonomy, while the ERC wants a Catalan Republic. Of course, even if Madrid allowed a referendum vote, questions such as EU membership and continuing in the euro would be thorny legal issues.

[BonnieShels]

And hilarious. :)

I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"

[Mr A]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

[BonnieShels]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

It's richer now. But was it always thus?

I love the logic applied to Canada every time Quebec open their stupid mouths...

Basically Alberta is the financial engine of the Nation now and Ontario as the largest Province gobble up the cash. But Alberta don't "really" mind because over the years Ontario was the Nation's engine and contributed to the growth of the other Provinces. Quebec have done squat. Shut up Quebec. That's the summary of an article I read in the National Post in 2009 that stuck with me.

Catalonia like Quebec weren't always as rich as they are now. But as soon as they have a bit of cash... vamos.

I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.

[pineapple stu]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..
So rich it needed a bailout last month? (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0829/1224323180862.html)

Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.

[osarusan]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0911/breaking57.html


Hundreds of thousands of Catalans took to the streets of Barcelona today in an unprecedented show of mass support for autonomy from Madrid, blaming Spain's economic crisis for dragging their wealthy region down.

Surging unemployment and financial disarray have stoked a fever of separatism in Catalonia, a comparatively prosperous part of Spain whose leaders say their wealth is being sucked dry by the central government.
...
Economists calculate Catalans pay at least €12 billion more in taxes per year to Madrid than they receive back for services like schools and hospitals.

Many Catalans say the figure - difficult to calculate because of a complex system of transfers - is even higher, up to €16 billion.

[DaveyCakes]

I wonder how many of the people complaining about how much money Catalonia contributes to the national exchequer would complain about higher income tax for richer individuals....

[DaveyCakes]

I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.

That's exactly how I felt about Barcelona. It seemed as if everything had to be reduced to a contest with Madrid, be it football, architecture, nightlife, whatever...they're absolutely obsessed in the most petty way imaginable.

[mypost]

Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.

Ah no, they still want to be in the Spanish League, so they can hold their propaganda rally big game against Real Madrid every year. Life in Barcelona would have no meaning if Real Madrid were not around. Quite what the French part of Catalonia makes of the prospect is open to question.

On the wider question, they can't have independence. If Madrid gave it to them, then next would be the Basques, then the Galicians, Andalucians, etc etc, and you would have a break up of Spain similiar to that of Yugoslavia. It's up to Madrid to keep them all together, and regional chaos at bay.

[Charlie Darwin]

And hilarious. :)

I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"
Is that not as good a reason as any?

[superfrank]

I was reading the other day that the Basque Country is actually on the up economically (economic growth, GDP higher than the EU average, iirc), running completely contrary to the rest of Spain, yet there hasn't been a surge in the demand for independence there.

Catalonia used to be the economic powerhouse of Spain and it's only been since the beginning of the current crisis that the Madrid region overtook it. Of course, when things were going well, they had less interest in pulling away.

Catalans, Basques and Galicians are different culturally and linguistically from Castillians and I support their respective independence desires for those reasons.

Also, Barca's president said the other day that they'd continue in La Liga if the region gains independence. He didn't give any good reason why, just that Barca wants to continue with it's age-old rivals. Nothing to do with loss of revenue and competitiveness or difficulty for European football. He likened it to Monaco's position in France, but, afaik, Monaco has some kind of political connection with France. Even for the likes of Derry, considering that all citizens born in NI are entitled to Irish passports, and Berwick, which is part of the same looser federation, there are some political connections between the country the team is from and the one they play in.

I'm not sure on the specifics in the respective situations, but the only other similar situations are the likes of FC Andorra in Spain, San Marino in Italy and the Liechtensteiner teams in Switzerland. For them, though, it seems like the countries are too small to support a league of their own. To suggest that Catalonia, with 7.5m people, couldn't support a national league is ridiculous. Barca's position is based on nothing more than financial reasons.

[ped_ped]

You want independence beacuse you feel you're distinct, not for any overarcing reason. How many people would rather Ireland stayed with Britain and Britain just treat us a bit more fairly? A certain percantage, sure, but seriously in the minority. We sought independence because we felt we were seperate. We were allowed varying degrees of self-determination when we became the Free State - why did we become a Republic?

[peadar1987]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. It was a common opinion in Victorian Britain that the Irish were unfit to govern themselves. Now, as correct as that eventually turned out to be, the whole "white man's burden", better off with London/Madrid/Paris/Washington/whoever keeping hold of the reins argument isn't one that washes with me. Unless Catalunya were going to commit human rights abuses, if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.

[mypost]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.

No it isn't. You can't just suddenly turn up one day, do a "Kosovo", then start demanding rights and recognition. It's a bit more complicated than that. Others have to have their say too, and regional consequences have to be factored into. Montenegro wanted independence from Serbia, and went through the relevant process calmly and correctly. So unlike Kosovo, they're entitled to their independence.

Barcelona wants independence from Madrid, but what do Perpignan want? Bilbao wants independence, but what do Biarritz want? If Madrid start giving them an inch, the rest in Spain will want a mile. Not every country can have as smooth a break up as Czechoslovakia.

[peadar1987]

I disagree. I think the only real "relevant process" is a democratic mandate from the people. Now once the people have decided that they want independence, there are right and wrong ways of going about it, that's true.

And on the Kosovo subject, I think they're perfectly entitled to independence from Belgrade after their "ethnic cleansing" antics.

[DannyInvincible]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes.

How do we distinguish regions and peoples? Not all persons within a set defined - possibly arbitrarily - as a people will subscribe to a single orthodox. Why not go full hog and accord this right to make mistakes to individual persons?

[Mr A]

On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

Could get pretty messy.

And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.

[peadar1987]

Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation. However, just because there's no hard and fast rule for what constitutes a distinct ethnic group, or a nation of people, doesn't mean that things would be better if we just transferred all of the sovereign powers of every country to Berlin.

[BonnieShels]

Is that not as good a reason as any?

Well my issue with these scenarios is that it's generally with how a Catalonian always instigates this conversation whether and how I must agree with them. And when I don't they get snotty and whiny.

[culloty82]

On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

Could get pretty messy.

And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.

That was more of an issue in Quebec, where you had clear geographic Anglophone areas that planned to break away if the referendum had passed. In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.

[mypost]

Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation.

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.


In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.

Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.

[peadar1987]

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.


Before the breakup of the Soviet Union, Estonia had been a nation state for 21 years in total, from 1918 until 1939. Before that it had been part of the Russian Empire, East Prussia, a Lithuanian-Polish confederacy, and Sweden, among others, as a region with significant linguistic, cultural, and ethnic heritage of its own. So a bit like Catalunya is today. Or a bit like Kosovo, which is primarily ethnic Albanian, whereas Serbia is, well, Serbian, as I'm sure you know.

Ireland hadn't been independent in 800 years before 1922.

Nations have always emerged and disappeared. Deciding whether a people have the right to self-determination based on whether or not they was a Grand Duchy with significant autonomy in that region in 1722 isn't exactly the best way of going about things.




Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.

Again, the potential for things to be less than perfectly clean isn't the best reason for keeping Catalunya part of Spain. The path to an independent Catalunya, if that's what significant proportions of the people in the region wanted, would probably involve very complicated negotiations about which regions stayed in Spain, which stayed in France, and which wanted to join the Catalan Republic, or whatever they called it. The fact that Perpignan might well choose of their own free will to remain part of France shouldn't be a deal-breaker for secession of other regions from Spain, in the same way that the choice of the Six Counties to remain part of the UK shouldn't have meant that Galway, Cork, and Tipperary should have their wish for independence ignored.

[Charlie Darwin]

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it.
I'm sure they're devastated.

[nigel-harps1954]

Most of all, I love how they show their support for each other by not singing their national anthem.

[culloty82]

A regional election on November 25th will show where things stand. Meanwhile, Venice (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9589732/Mass-rally-in-Venice-to-call-for-independence-from-Italy.html) wants to break away from Italy.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.irishtimes.com/homepage/images/1224327088325.jpg?ts=1353872297


Catalans have handed a majority to parties backing independence from Spain, strengthening the region's drive for a referendum on secession in defiance of Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, the first exit poll showed.Catalan president Artur Mas, who called early elections to force the debate on independence, won between 54 and 57 of the 135 seats in the regional assembly for his Convergencia i Unio party, according to estimate by Spanish broadcaster TV3, funded by the regional Catalan government.

The Separatist Catalan Republican Left won between 20 and 23 seats. Two smaller parties that also back a referendum secured at least 15 seats between them.
...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1125/breaking17.html

[BonnieShels]

And now that that's all over nothing will happen.

[culloty82]

And now that that's all over nothing will happen.

Sunday's "poll" may have been a sham, but it has left the region facing two potential follow-ups: Either Rajoy, the Spanish PM allows a real referendum, or local elections, focused on independence will be held, after which a nationalist government would simply declare independence, so the first option seems the easier for Madrid to win.

[BonnieShels]

Well, my post is from 2012 above.

And there's no way a Catalonian Govt will secede unilaterally.

[BonnieShels]

So the Spanish authorities doing their best to increase support-levels for Catalan independence.

Some disgraceful scenes coming in from Barcelona.

[NeverFeltBetter]

What does Catalonia secession look like in the aftermath of a vote like this? Will Madrid have to occupy the province with police?

[BonnieShels]

Pretty much what they would have to do. If they were reasoned in their response before now they wouldn't have to go down that road but watching the Guardia Civil attacking Firefighters and having a standoff with Catalan Police is certainly disturbing. Rajoy is certainly out of his depth.

The EU response will be telling. A lot of leaders around Europe nervous. Fair dues to Charles Michel (Belgian PM) coming out with something.

[BonnieShels]

Foreign Office response:

"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld. Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to us."

You couldn't make it up.

[DannyInvincible]

So the Spanish authorities doing their best to increase support-levels for Catalan independence.

Some disgraceful scenes coming in from Barcelona.

Shocking scenes indeed. It's crazy that the Spanish government think taking a hard-line will help, especially in the information age. History has shown time and time again that such an approach only increases sympathy and support for those being subjected to state violence.

Paradoxically, the clamp-down - an attempt to suppress the independence movement - has actually given it wider exposure, à la the Streisand effect, than it probably would have garnered had the government not been so intransigent.

[BonnieShels]

Absolutely correct. It smacks of sheer stupidity. I'm sure the reasoning was to corral protesters (voters) and get them to fight back legitimising force against them.

It's backfired spectacularly.

[BonnieShels]

Great website for keep up-to-date.

http://spain.liveuamap.com/

[DannyInvincible]

Colm Tóibín (who lives in Barcelona, to the best of my knowledge) with a good piece in the Guardian on the present situation and the region's fractured history with Madrid: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/29/colm-toibin-point-of-view-madrid-catalan-separatism


Madrid is not itself prepared to make a detailed case against the vote being held, but rather is insisting that it is illegal, as though the law were something that could not be changed. It is curious also that Madrid politicians have not been travelling the length and breadth of Catalonia – as, say, Gordon Brown did in Scotland in the runup to the independence referendum there – to make the argument against the referendum and against Catalan independence. Why have these politicians stayed in Madrid? Why did we not hear from them on the independence question in Catalonia this summer? Why have they offered coercion rather than argument?

...

The success of the policy on language is the main reason why Spanish politicians have not been visiting towns and villages in Catalonia, and not speaking on radio or TV to make the case against the referendum. Catalonia, for them, has become terra incognita. If Rajoy or his attorney general were to visit the heartland, they would find that no one had heard a political discussion in the Spanish language before, and they would notice also a strangeness, a sense that they themselves were in a foreign country.

[BonnieShels]

Current update 2154:

Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, has announced that the region has won the right to independence following today’s referendum.

[BonnieShels]

From RTVE: Taking the Generalitat count as valid, with 95% of the votes counted, 90.09% of the participants voted Yes to the independence of Catalonia (2,262,424 votes) ; He has not harvested 7.87% of the votes (176,566) and there have been 40,686 blank ballots (2.03%) and 20,729 null votes (0.89%). It is striking that the sum of these percentages exceeds 100% of the votes; in particular, gives 100.88%.

[DannyInvincible]

The BBC reported (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719) that turn-out was 42.3 per cent. I'm guessing the Spanish government clamp-down affected turn-out quite a bit with the Catalan authorities claiming that 319 of about 2,300 polling stations had been shut down. The Spanish government counter-claimed that 92 stations had been closed.

Catalan officials have also claimed that more than 750 people were injured.

Meanwhile, Gerard Pique condemned the brutality of of the Spanish government and offered his resignation from the Spanish national team if his presence would be deemed problematic in a tearful interview after Barca's game against Las Palmas today (which was played behind closed doors in the Nou Camp): https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/oct/01/barcelona-gerard-pique-catalan-independence


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR18LNCIST0

[nigel-harps1954]

Spains open training session met with abuse thrown in the direction of Pique.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017/1002/909186-pique-barracked-by-angry-fans-at-open-training-session/

[mark12345]

Most of all, I love how they show their support for each other by not singing their national anthem.

Would that perhaps be a reference to the players in America's NFL?

[osarusan]

That post is 5 years old, and was a just a joke then anyway.

[nigel-harps1954]

Would that perhaps be a reference to the players in America's NFL?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXfGAlc4i4w

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'm given to understand the ruling parties in Catalonia are prepared to declare independence from Spain on the back of the referendum, but how does that work out in reality? It seems they want the EU to step-in and mediate, but that seems unlikely to happen as the EU nations aren't recognizing the result. And when Spanish authorities - be they police or military - step in, will a proclaimed independent Catalonia defend itself? Sadly that might be the only way the EU or UN would finally intervene.

[backstothewall]

The government in Madrid don't seem to have any good options. If they don't react to a UDI then Catalonia is de facto independent. If they go in with force the Catalan population will be further inflamed. If they don't go in the Castillian population will be further inflamed. If they arrest the Catalan leadership they will create a Mandela figure.

[DannyInvincible]

'Derry councillors could be set to vote on recognising an independent Catalonia': http://www.derryjournal.com/news/derry-councillors-could-be-set-to-vote-on-recognising-an-independent-catalonia-1-8184163


Derry City and Strabane District Council could be set to formally recognise an independent Catalonia after a Sinn Féin councillor signalled her intention of bringing a motion to that effect before the next full Council meeting on October 26.

Caoimhe McKnight indicated she would be proposing a motion that the council back the “democratic outcome of the Catalan independence referendum” and condemn “the brutality of the Spanish police” during last Sunday’s referendum in Iberia.

Colr. McKnight will also seek a mandate to “write to the Catalan and Spanish Governments to outline the Council’s support for Catalan Independence”.

[BonnieShels]

Puigdemont about to declare independence. But will likely suspend it pending dialogue.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/10/catalan-parliament-discusses-independence-referendum-live#59dcfd93e4b034d41ce38796

[OwlsFan]

'Derry councillors could be set to vote on recognising an independent Catalonia': http://www.derryjournal.com/news/derry-councillors-could-be-set-to-vote-on-recognising-an-independent-catalonia-1-8184163

Interesting. A majority in Northern Ireland opted out of the 32 county Irish Free State and Sinn Fein up to only very recently refused to recognise that choice.

I am in two minds about Catalonia. Was Lincoln wrong to refuse to permit the Confederate State to secede from the Union (his initial refusal had little to do with slavery)? Was it right to allow Northern Ireland to secede from the Free State ? Is any part of the whole of a State entitled to declare its independence ?

[backstothewall]

Interesting. A majority in Northern Ireland opted out of the 32 county Irish Free State and Sinn Fein up to only very recently refused to recognise that choice.

I am in two minds about Catalonia. Was Lincoln wrong to refuse to permit the Confederate State to secede from the Union (his initial refusal had little to do with slavery)? Was it right to allow Northern Ireland to secede from the Free State ? Is any part of the whole of a State entitled to declare its independence ?

It wasn't Sinn Fein who refused to recognise partition. It was the constitution.

And the 6 counties never seceded from the Free State. 26 counties seceded from the UK, and the whole thing was done without any mandate from the people, who would never have provided one.

This isn't like the people of Sligo getting ideas and deciding to declare independence. Catalonia is a distinct nation which has been independent at various times through history.


Could Spain's steps backfire?

The dissolution of Catalonia's parliament and the holding of snap regional elections may appear to offer a way of defusing today's state of extreme tension, but there are plenty of reasons to doubt that such a strategy would provide a clear solution to the crisis.

The far-left CUP party has suggested that it would boycott any election imposed on the region. Other pro-independence forces might do the same. Massive street protests against any form of direct rule from Madrid can also be expected.

Mr Puigdemont has promised to call a formal vote on independence in Catalonia's parliament if Article 155 is invoked. If such a declaration were approved, the pro-independence forces could style the ballot as the election of a constituent assembly for a new republic, the next stage laid down in the pro-independence road map.

Assuming the participation of all parties, voters would be bound to interpret the election as a de facto vote on independence. If a separatist majority emerged once again, it is hard to see how the conflict could be considered closed.

It would seem Rajoy never read up on the 1918 election or the 1st Dail