Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 15th August 2012 - Friendly

[geysir]

We're almost 13/2 to win our qualifying group at betfair.
The standard price is 10/1 to win the group. Anyway, those odds don't have that much relevance to our chances,
the telling odds are 1/5 not to qualify.

[paul_oshea]

I wasn't attributing the goals to the system, I was attributing them to Keane. Throughout qualifying we displayed a knack for scoring goals in spite of our negative play, and I think some of that has to be put down to having two players to occupy the centre halves. I'm not sure we have a midfield mobile enough to compensate for one fewer striker, which I think is the point Trapattoni was saying.

I'm no fan of the 442 but whatever we gain in solidity from a 433 I think we would lose in other areas. We would just be a different type of defensive team.

Theres an awful lot of conditional simple in your last few posts on this matter. I'd rather see some past tense. If you haven't tried it, then you never know.

I'd agree with Stutts assertion that is a tactical answer from Trap, to sidestep the real issue. It's negative at best, but typical of him, and something he will only get away with for a while longer.

Noelys 352 formation would be too weak defensively, but I like the shackle-free liberalism in his thinking.

[punkrocket]

So what are the odds on Trap still having the job come christmas?

[Bungle]

So what are the odds on Trap still having the job come christmas?

I think we'll beat Kazakhstan (nerve racking 1-0 or 2-1 job) and Faroes. We'll be beaten by the Germans.
The real testing time for him is in March when I think we have to play Austria/Sweden in a double header in the same week. That week could define if we get in the play offs or in the worst case scenario finish 4th. Two defeats or one draw and I think he could leave.

I think the Germans will stroll the group - maybe we might nick a draw over there if they take the foot off the gas if they've qualified or they might drop points in Stockholm.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Very high odds that he'll stay. We can't afford to sack him...

Though as Bungle says, he could resign if results don't pick up.

[paul_oshea]

I doubt he would resign, its not something he often does. Why would he and lose all that money.

Ya, I think we are ok till March. But I hoped, through time as much as traps experimenting, that the lineup and system would have changed somewhat from what it is now, but since last Friday I don't feel this is the case, and I can now see us seriously struggling in March, but Trap kept on until at least then because of the results in the first 3 games. I actually think if we perform as well as we can in Traps old system, we could draw against the Germans at home, if everyone is on top of their game.

[Charlie Darwin]

Theres an awful lot of conditional simple in your last few posts on this matter. I'd rather see some past tense. If you haven't tried it, then you never know.

I'd agree with Stutts assertion that is a tactical answer from Trap, to sidestep the real issue. It's negative at best, but typical of him, and something he will only get away with for a while longer.

Noelys 352 formation would be too weak defensively, but I like the shackle-free liberalism in his thinking.
Don't try and bamboozle me with grammar Paul O'Shea.

To put it another way, Ireland playing 433/451 would be like Wolves the last two seasons. We'd have a bit more of the ball but we'd lack the creative impetus to make a lot of chances and our lone striker would spend 99% of his time running up the channels with nobody to provide an option in the box.

[paul_oshea]

Its the use of "would", im referring to. I actually thought we played that formation against Uruguay for some of the time. And yes they had a lot of chances, but I think what Stutts has alluded to previously, we still concede an awful lot of chances(in 4-4-2, so does it really matter), but in that game we created many and played a great attacking game, and could have drawn in the end. With a few tweaks and shaping the system further, perhaps we wouldn't be so exposed or poor defensively in that shape. Again, you don't know till you try. But with emphasis by Trap on getting players in and learning his ways and system, then surely we "could" be pruned further in that formation.

IF you were to compare that game, and as little as you can a competitive and a friendly, against Russia at home, where we went 3-0 down, I thought we were far more likely to get a good result against Uruguay than we were against Russia. These were two contrasting styles, but we looked far more effective going forward in the game against Uruguay. We looked shabby defenisvely in both.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure what Paul meant either but I think he might be saying that you are saying "XYZ is fact" a lot in recent posts rather than "in my opinion XYZ would lead to…". If he was I agree.

You've just done it above too!

I posted this as a possible XI in post No. 36, taken from those selected for Serbia.

---------------Westwood-------------
----Kelly----JOS-----SSL----Wilson---------
-----------McCarthy---Gibson
Coleman----McGeady---McClean
----------------Long*---------
* or KD or JW

I don't see that as being a shape that would isolate Long and leave him running the channels. I see it as being a mixture of pace, good ball players and athletes. They key is how they interact. You can only hypothesise from our position but I think it has a nice look about it, is well balanced, has nobody in a role he isn't suited too (bar McGeady perhaps?) and if Gibson and McGeady can shoot on sight who knows?

[paul_oshea]

Mcclean seems to have a decent strike too.

But the jury is still out, on that one, Mcclean i mean. He could well have a stalled season like Coleman last year. I think this is the make or break season for Coleman actually.

[CraftyToePoke]

---------------Westwood-------------
----Kelly----JOS-----SSL----Wilson---------
-----------McCarthy---Gibson
Coleman----McGeady---McClean
----------------Long*---------

In this formation, I think I'd like to see Hoolahan get a run out in the McGeady role with McGeady on the right and Coleman maybe needing to rediscover his club form and knock on the door again once he has done that. Ideally become a RFB and take Kelly's place as I don't think Kelly is good or comfortable enough on the ball. And I never thought I'd say it but Ireland in the middle of the three would be interesting to see, that would give teams something to think about against us as would be guys who can weigh in with a goal all over.

[ifk101]

But the jury is still out, on that one, Mcclean i mean. He could well have a stalled season like Coleman last year. I think this is the make or break season for Coleman actually.

Yeah both should drop out of the professional game.

[Stuttgart88]

My Derry mate reckons McClean could be at Tranmere in 2 years' time! I think success and failure at the top level is driven by such fine margins that either might not fulfil early promise. Under good stewardship and with luck regarding injuries both should progress.


In this formation, I think I'd like to see Hoolahan get a run out in the McGeady role with McGeady on the right and Coleman maybe needing to rediscover his club form and knock on the door again once he has done that. Ideally become a RFB and take Kelly's place as I don't think Kelly is good or comfortable enough on the ball. And I never thought I'd say it but Ireland in the middle of the three would be interesting to see, that would give teams something to think about against us as would be guys who can weigh in with a goal all over.Yep, largely agree. I was picking that formation from the Serbia squad, not from what we have available overall.

[paul_oshea]

great post ifk well thought out and well executed.

[Charlie Darwin]

My Derry mate reckons McClean could be at Tranmere in 2 years' time! I think success and failure at the top level is driven by such fine margins that either might not fulfil early promise. Under good stewardship and with luck regarding injuries both should progress.
Well so could Jack Wilshere. McClean clearly has the talent, application and ability to make it at the top level. It should be a given that luck will play its part too.

[Murfinator]

Well so could Jack Wilshere. McClean clearly has the talent, application and ability to make it at the top level. It should be a given that luck will play its part too.

I don't agree, I'd say McClean is a championship standard player who punched above his weight for a couple of months. I think he'll have vanished right off the radar completely this time next year. He's made it this far on determination, confidence and just basic direct running and aggression. They aren't things to fall back on and he certainly doesn't have natural talent or any sort of technical ability to speak of, he reminds me a lot of a young Kilbane but the game has moved on since to allow him to be as successful, especially at winger which is no longer a headless chicken kind of position.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't agree, I'd say McClean is a championship standard player who punched above his weight for a couple of months. I think he'll have vanished right off the radar completely this time next year. He's made it this far on determination, confidence and just basic direct running and aggression. They aren't things to fall back on and he certainly doesn't have natural talent or any sort of technical ability to speak of, he reminds me a lot of a young Kilbane but the game has moved on since to allow him to be as successful, especially at winger which is no longer a headless chicken kind of position.
That is probably the most patently untrue statement I've ever seen on this forum. Watch this video. He is a technically excellent striker of the ball, an inch-perfect crosser and passer of the ball at his best, and he's shown already he can do it with consistency at the highest level. People say "direct" as a synonym for "not technical." Steven Gerrard is a technical, direct player. So is Fernando Torres. McClean isn't in the same bracket as those players but he is both direct, technically strong and naturally gifted and he's more likely than not to get better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4N6o79fY94

[Carrigaline]

an inch-perfect crosser and passer of the ball at his best
McClean has a lot of qualities, but crossing and passing aren't anything special (I'm not say his passing or crossing is bad, it's just nothing special compared to his peers). McClean's obvious talent is running with the ball, panicking defenders and his tremendous work rate. Unfortunately, Martin O' Neill has the habit of taking good players and running them into the ground until they're useless (see Agbonlahor at Villa).

[Charlie Darwin]

He is inconsistent at this stage of his career but he'll get better and at his best his final ball is inch-perfect.

[Stuttgart88]

O'Neill did great with players like Alan Thompson. I've no worries about O'Neill.

[SwanVsDalton]

O'Neill did great with players like Alan Thompson. I've no worries about O'Neill.

Not to mention Ashley Young and James Milner having easily their best spells under O'Neill.


Unfortunately, Martin O' Neill has the habit of taking good players and running them into the ground until they're useless (see Agbonlahor at Villa).

Agbonlahor's has always fairly inconsistent, but has been more consistently poor since O'Neill left. Are you referring to O'Neill getting Agbonlahor to hit the weights? Don't really buy that argument, the weights didn't turn him into a five-games-on, fifteen-games-off kinda player.

[sparky12345678]

just a quick note to say that in the days before and after the match there is a beer festival on in Belgrade... on the 18th, the Orthodox Celts (who sing Dubliner songs etc) are playing...

[passinginterest]

Another couple of withdrawals. At this point I'm considering notifying the FAI of my own availability to play, although I do have a slight hamstring strain so I can't make any promises with the league due to start shortly.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0813/333425-ward-treacy-withdraw-from-serbia-trip/

[Supreme feet]

Looks like the keeper and back four will be Westwood - Kelly - O'Shea - O'Dea - Delaney, unless O'Brien gets in at RB and Kelly moves in one. Short of options there.

Elsewhere, I'd like to see McCarthy and Whelan in CM, McClean and Coleman on the flanks and McGeady playing centrally behind Long. Plenty of potential there.

[IsMiseSean]

If my calculations are correct, these are the lads still standing;
Westwood, Randolph, Forde (sat out training)
Kelly, McShane, O'Shea, O'Dea, O'Brien, Delaney
Whelan, Green, McCarthy, Coleman, McGeady, McClean, Keogh
Cox, Long, Walters

We could be in for a hiding....

[Irwin3]

If my calculations are correct, these are the lads still standing;
Westwood, Randolph, Forde (sat out training)
Kelly, McShane, O'Shea, O'Dea, O'Brien, Delaney
Whelan, Green, McCarthy, Coleman, McGeady, McClean, Keogh
Cox, Long, Walters

We could be in for a hiding....

Lineup vs. Italy:
David Forde; Paul McShane, Sean St Ledger, Darren O'Dea , Stephen Ward; Seamus Coleman, Keith Andrews, Kevin Foley, Stephen Hunt; Andy Keogh, Shane Long.

Didn't do too badly in that one though it was a neutral venue.

Sometimes the fringe players rise to the occasion as they have something to prove.

[Murfinator]

Wouldn't be too upset about Wards withdrawal, think we need to be looking at alternative options for LB anyways... Would like if he tested out one of the right backs (Joey, Kelly, JOS) at LB.

[Yard of Pace]

Given's retired

[Diarmo]

Anyone want to make a guess at the lineup? I'm like to see:

Westwood

O'Brien O'Shea O'Dea Kelly

Coleman McCarthy Whelan McGeady

Long Walters

Though I would adore to see McGeady as a trequartista behind Walters with McClean coming in on the left wing. However, I genuinely fear we could see:

Westwood

McShane O'Shea O'Dea Delaney

Keogh Green Whelan McGeady

Cox Walters

Which would really make me beyond sad at this point.

[SkStu]

I will take a contract out on Trap if he starts Green or Whelans ahead of James McCarthy. With Doyle now out as well he has the perfect excuse to try a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation. But he won't and your prediction is probably close to what he'll line out.

[BonnieShels]

Anyone want to make a guess at the lineup? I'm like to see:

Westwood

O'Brien O'Shea O'Dea Kelly

Coleman McCarthy Whelan McGeady

Long Walters

Though I would adore to see McGeady as a trequartista behind Walters with McClean coming in on the left wing. However, I genuinely fear we could see:

Westwood

McShane O'Shea O'Dea Delaney

Keogh Green Whelan McGeady

Cox Walters

Which would really make me beyond sad at this point.

Your syntax may have been suspect but your use of trequartista must be appluaded. You have a great mentality clearly.

Like you if he lines up with the second team I'll flip me lid.

[EastTerracer]

From @FAIreland on Twitter


Starting XI for Serbia match is: Westwood, McShane, O'Shea (c), O'Dea, Kelly, Mcgeady, Whelan, McCarthy, McClean, Walters and Long

Looks like we stay in a 4-4-2 formation. Glad to see McClean and McCarthy start.

[tetsujin1979]

Defence looks suspect, but could be good going forward

[back of the net]

Defence looks suspect, but could be good going forward

The obvious McShane worries of course, but more frightening is that he may well now consider O'Dea for the world cup quals.

From first hand experience, I cant emphasize how brutal Toronto are and that imo its a huge mistake for o'dea to go there

Would have liked to see Mcgeady been dropped and play someone else on the right.

[EastTerracer]

Average age of the team for tomorrow's game is 26 versus an average age of 30 for the team that started against Italy in Poznan.

More changes required over the coming months but hopefully the likes of Duffy, Clark, Wilson and Brady will start to press for inclusion during this campaign.

[ped_ped]

Westwood
O'Shea, McShane, O'Dea, Kelly
McGeady, McCarthy, Whelen, McClean
Walters, Long

[back of the net]

Tardelli was asked today whether we would change our system from the 4-4-2 , he was response was , why do we need to change the system.......

[DannyInvincible]

Tardelli was asked today whether we would change our system from the 4-4-2 , he was response was , why do we need to change the system.......

Where'd you get that?

[pineapple stu]

Was on the radio sports news anyway. I think his point was that it'd take too long to change the players over at this stage. The system is there for keeps at this stage.

[back of the net]

Where'd you get that?

was on OFF THE BALL on newstalk radio this evening. Small interview with him earlier

[Murfinator]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2012/0814/333631-doubts-over-keane-dunne-for-trapattoni/

Trap concerned over possible Keane and Dunne retirements. They have 10 days to decide for certain.

[DannyInvincible]

Was on the radio sports news anyway. I think his point was that it'd take too long to change the players over at this stage. The system is there for keeps at this stage.

I'm puzzled. So when will a chance arise, if ever, to change (or even experiment with) the system if now supposedly isn't suitable?

[back of the net]

I'm puzzled. So when will a chance arise, if ever, to change (or even experiment with) the system if now supposedly isn't suitable?

I think thats the whole predicament Danny, they dont believe a change is required.
Tardelli, kept replying to the journalist.."Why do we need to change?" , he then start to tell the journalist that Alex Ferguson hasnt changed his tactics in 30 years....at that point I started to cry

[Sullivinho]

Westwood
O'Shea, McShane, O'Dea, Kelly
McGeady, McCarthy, Whelen, McClean
Walters, Long

I like the look of the attacking side of things. Pleased to see the McCarthy and McClean involved. Mc's all over the shop in that lineup.

Defence could provide a few xanax moments.

[elroy]

Who's on the bench

O'Brien
Cox
Green
Delaney

[Murfinator]

Kelly at leftback is wonderful news and hopefully he stays there instead of ward. JOS still at RB instead of CB isn't so great.

I'd worry our centre mids will get overrun, I don't think McClean or McShane can cut it at this level either. Could see a 2-3 goal win for Serbia.

[Charlie Darwin]

O'Shea is playing centre-half.

[EastTerracer]

Kelly at leftback is wonderful news and hopefully he stays there instead of ward. JOS still at RB instead of CB isn't so great.

I'd worry our centre mids will get overrun, I don't think McClean or McShane can cut it at this level either. Could see a 2-3 goal win for Serbia.


Murfinator, do you actually go to any Ireland matches? I know you have admitted on here before that you are more of a rugby fan but just interested if you ever go to football matches.

[back of the net]

Where'd you get that?

Here u go Dan:

http://soundcloud.com/off-the-ball/kenny-cunningham-on-trap

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think McClean ... can cut it at this level either.

What are you basing that on exactly? He did well in his first start against Bosnia, albeit overshadowed by Aiden McGeady in one of his most impressive performances for us to date. Other than that, are you judging him on 12 minutes against the Czechs in a friendly and 14 minutes against the current World Cup and Euro 2008/2012 champions?