Worse than England?

[tricky_colour]

If Italy had taken their chances they would have been at least 2-0 down maybe more.

[geysir]

If Ireland had 1% of your passion for starting threads, the world would be our oyster.

[tricky_colour]

That's the problem isn't it we play the same old threads when they were long past their sell by date.

The players like the threads were all clutter up, they were getting in the way of each other.

Had we one for man for man threading it would have been a different story

We stubbornly stuck to a system which was not working.

And if people were not expect to start threads they would never have invented the start thread button.

[legendz]

Groups B and C were by far the toughest. It's no surprise to see that the semi-finalists have come from both groups with none from A and D.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Thread fail?

[Crosby87]

That game was like watching paint dry. I kept switching to NASCAR and Octomoms porn video which were no better.
This whole Tournament has been boring as ****te IMHO. I'd rather listen to Geysirs " Geysir presents an oral account of history, Part IV: Living in Ireland during the time of cholera" lecture which is around 6 hours long.

[Stuttgart88]

I think it's been the best tournament since the 80s.

[paul_oshea]

I have actually really enjoyed it. Granted we were there, and also that I haven't seen as much as i normally would have, because of being away at it, but the games i have saw were all very interesting.

I watched the England game yesterday and thought it was a very entertaining game, as entertaining as a 0-0 can be. One thing though, I know when you don't have the ball you do a lot of running, but what about the running spain and italy do with the ball and without. How come they just seem fitter than the Irish and English players? England were shagged shortly after the start of the second half. There is no excuse for fitness and stamina levels being 2nd best at international level.

[ArdeeBhoy]

'Entertaining' is stretching it. Littered by mistakes would be more apt.

[OwlsFan]

Yes, I think we are worse than England, certainly personnel wise. How many of our players would get in to the English team on current form? None I'd say except possibly McLean for Young. Was our performance any worse? Marginally insofar as we didn't create anything worth talking about but we shut them out more I think. Another nail in the coffin for 4-4-2 ?

[shakermaker1982]

Pirlo....drool.

He makes Gerrard look like a pub player.

[geysir]

Okay then, you all agree and comply with tricky's scatterbrained thread approach?
if not, why participate in it?

[Stuttgart88]

what about the running spain and italy do with the ball and without. How come they just seem fitter than the Irish and English players? I was reading last week that French TV has a version of Spitting Image and they caricature Spanish sportsmen (footballers, Nadal, Contador) as serial drug cheats and show them signing autographs with syringes.

[Crosby87]

Stutts, what do you think has made it the best tourney since the 80s?

[Stuttgart88]

Quality of games, technical quality of football, better refereeing (in general), less blatant cheating and cynicism, context of the games (Pol v Russia for e.g.,), a fantastic group of death, a window into the modern tactical set-up, only one 0-0 draw...

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think it's been the best tournament since the 80s.

The 1880's?

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I think we are worse than England, certainly personnel wise. How many of our players would get in to the English team on current form? None I'd say except possibly McLean for Young. Was our performance any worse? Marginally insofar as we didn't create anything worth talking about but we shut them out more I think. Another nail in the coffin for 4-4-2 ?Absolutely agree.

In fact, in every position you could ask who is the worst England player that WOULd get into our team.

GK isn't clear cut - Shay would be high up the list. But loads of English players barely even considered for England would get into our team. Take left back, or central midfield. I'm sure you'd have to go to Danny Murphy or below to find someone who would still get in our team. Which is why the "sum of the parts" question is important but that and the question at hand here could just as easily be asked in any of the existing post-Euro 2012 discussions already running.

[Murfinator]

ah yes the old defining ourselves in the shadow of England crops up again. This thread perfectly defines the small minded attitude of our fans and the embarrassment I've felt all tournament.

[seanfhear]

Yes, I think we are worse than England, certainly personnel wise. How many of our players would get in to the English team on current form? None I'd say except possibly McLean for Young. Was our performance any worse? Marginally insofar as we didn't create anything worth talking about but we shut them out more I think. Another nail in the coffin for 4-4-2 ?
England played 442 with better players than we have and were still extremely bad (particularly 2nd half and extra time).

The modern very accurate short passing (and some long) has shown in this tournament that 442 cannot cope with it. Better pitchs may also have had an effect on this.

[Junior]

I have actually really enjoyed it. Granted we were there, and also that I haven't seen as much as i normally would have, because of being away at it, but the games i have saw were all very interesting.

I watched the England game yesterday and thought it was a very entertaining game, as entertaining as a 0-0 can be. One thing though, I know when you don't have the ball you do a lot of running, but what about the running spain and italy do with the ball and without. How come they just seem fitter than the Irish and English players? England were shagged shortly after the start of the second half. There is no excuse for fitness and stamina levels being 2nd best at international level.

Running around after shadows is imo inevitably more tiring than running around with the ball. Spain throughout the tournament and Italy last night at least were in possession 70%+ that might explain it in part. I can never recall seeing a professional footballer go down with cramp on the 70 minute mark, as Gerard did last night.

I really enjoyed the game last night. Ardee says it was "littered with mistakes" very poor finishing on the part of the Italians perhaps, though the build up play was excellent and the English being unable to string two passes together or get within an asses roar of the 3 man Italian midfield (Gerard/Parker - Huffed and Puffed but that was it) - But I enojoyed it thoroughly regardless, perhaps the outcome had a small part in it.

EDIT - Just on the point regarding Italy's build up play. It was notable that Pirlo could easily ping a long ball over the top and on at least 3 or 4 occasions Balotelli or whoever were practically clean through on goal. Not sure was this because of the highline of Englands defence (surely Terry and Lescott didnt think they had the pace or good communication skills that this could work) or was it simply down to the inch perfect passing of Pirlo?

[irishultra]

Well said Murfinator.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Junior, that was a shockingly poor game at times. Almost as bad as the SPL...

[OwlsFan]

ah yes the old defining ourselves in the shadow of England crops up again. This thread perfectly defines the small minded attitude of our fans and the embarrassment I've felt all tournament.

Sorry about your embarrassment. Are you going round with your hands to your face to cover it up?

I feel no embarrassment for our team losing to two of the best teams in the world and arguably to another that's in the top ten. The point in comparing to England is because our players nearly all play in the same league as their players. Hardly much point comparing them to the Japanese for instance.

Pound for pound (or million for million) nearly all their players are better than ours and yet we put up almost as good as a show against Italy. What does this show? Our coaching systems was perhaps better but that when facing the best in the world England's and our systems are not up to scratch, that the players and/or their method of play are not up to scratch and that we were unfortunate to be drawn in such a strong group.

[paul_oshea]

Robbie Savage Q & A :

ROBBIE SAVAGE Q&A
Q: Do you think England will win a major tournament in your lifetime? (@Crippy4Villa)
A: No, not unless something fundamentally changes from grassroots level. They can't keep the ball and always have less possession. A major overhaul is needed, and futsal - keeping the ball below head height - with teams of youngsters who are able to pass it, is the way or we've no chance. Possession is key.
Why did England struggle? Because they were chasing the ball so much and had so little possession. They looked shattered against Italy. Pirlo, 33, dictated the game and he's played every game. Gerrard and Parker were chasing the ball all tournament and look shattered. Gerrard was cramping. Keep the ball is such a must at international level.


Interesting about England, the country has woken up to the fact that the English system is very limited and needs serious restructuring.

Yes owlsfan they both put up a similar show, our limitations in the back four being exposed and conceding 2 goals with a backs to the walls approach, and England not conceding any with a backs to the wall approach, because their CBs and full backs were better than ours. Simples.

Savage annoyed me saying that most of our players are champsionship players though.

Savage is showing typical BBC punditry here, i.e. uninformed and limited knowledge.

How many of our players played championship football last year Robbie?

Shay Given
Stephen ward
Richard dunne
Sean st ledger(1)
John oshea
Glenn Whelan
Keith Andrews
Damien duff
Aiden mcgeady
Robbie keane
Kevin doyle/jon walters/shane long.

Tell me that again Robbie? why hasn’t someone pointed that out to him.

[Stuttgart88]

Murf, England is an obvious benchmark. Our players are selected from the same league and culturally and geographically they are our closest international point of comparison. Nothing typically Irish in my contributions to this post.

You'd swear Ireland was located somewhere totally isolated in the mid-Atlantic by some people's attitudes here.

[paul_oshea]

EDIT - Just on the point regarding Italy's build up play. It was notable that Pirlo could easily ping a long ball over the top and on at least 3 or 4 occasions Balotelli or whoever were practically clean through on goal. Not sure was this because of the highline of Englands defence (surely Terry and Lescott didnt think they had the pace or good communication skills that this could work) or was it simply down to the inch perfect passing of Pirlo?

It wasn't just Pirlo. But definitely lescott should not be caught out with a highline...its fairly obvious and has been for years :)

[boovidge]

Interesting that Savage uses 'we' for England.

[paul_oshea]

Interestingly Junior here are some stats from the Italy game for you, Gerrard ran less than Pirlo, as did all the England team, so the chasing shadows doesn't really hold up, why do Italy and Spain seem so superior?

• According to Uefa, Pirlo ran 11.58 kilometres, more than any England player. Gerrard covered 11.26 km
• England managed only 2.75 shots on target per game in Euro 2012; only Ukraine, Greece & Republic of Ireland produced fewer

[Junior]

I dont know. Interesting that Pirlo covered more ground, he looked as though he was just strolling around, strutting if you will. Ive just been listening to the guardian daily podcast there and one point made by a journalist was that the stats from UEFA and Opta for example can be very different.

Pirlo did drop deep to pick up the ball a fair bit, in lots of space, backing up the assertion that Gerard/Parker werent chasing his shadow in the oppositions half? I never said they were any good a chasing shadows, they clearly werent!

The 2.75 shot on target per game is interesting. They scored 5 goals in 4 games. 45% of shots on target resulted in goals. And there you have it................





What, I'm not sure.

[paul_oshea]

http://greenscene.me/2012/06/irelands-euro-2012-statistics/

The most depressing bit there is that Shay attempted the 6th most passes in the attacking half and of the ten of twenty-three that were successful, most of them were probably the flick-on's by the forwards that the went nowhere. That and the fact that McGeady made the most tackles.

Please put this somewhere else if needed, for maximum exposure obviously. Its a good read.

[SkStu]

'Entertaining' is stretching it. Littered by mistakes would be more apt.

Mistakes are entertaining! As I prove on a daily basis!! ;) ;)

[elroy]

The Times on Sunday had a few interesting statistics from the group stages. Unfortunately and unsurprisngly we reflected badly in almost all. The one stat that did grab me though was average possession for the group games. Ireland were third worst I think, but England were even worse than us, thought that was astonishing - remember this was before Sunday nights game when even my dog could see how little England had the ball. But for England to have such low possession against Sweden, France and Ukraine is very telling.

[tricky_colour]

The Times on Sunday had a few interesting statistics from the group stages. Unfortunately and unsurprisngly we reflected badly in almost all. The one stat that did grab me though was average possession for the group games. Ireland were third worst I think, but England were even worse than us, thought that was astonishing - remember this was before Sunday nights game when even my dog could see how little England had the ball. But for England to have such low possession against Sweden, France and Ukraine is very telling.


We were not actually that bad against Croatia, we had a good spell against Italy too, peoples minds are clouded by the Spain
game and the talk after the matches (we were shyte).
If you actually look back at the games there are times when we do not look too bad.

Who was the other team worse than us? Also remember we were in the toughest group.
Were we in an easier group we would have been better even than third bottom I think.

[the bear]

We were not actually that bad against Croatia, we had a good spell against Italy too, peoples minds are clouded by the Spain
game and the talk after the matches (we were shyte).
If you actually look back at the games there are times when we do not look too bad.

Who was the other team worse than us? Also remember we were in the toughest group.
Were we in an easier group we would have been better even than third bottom I think.

We were absoloutoley brutal for the majority of every game. The Croatia game was our most dissappointing of the tourno in my opinion. It is not surprising that we struggled to keep possesion or create chances from open play, the biggest dissappointment is that we utterly failed at what were supposed to be our strong points, our bread and butter that saw us qualify in the first place.

We were supposed to be hard to beat, hard to score against, tough tacklers, full of heart and bottle. When we turned up we were gifting goals away, going through the motions before being sent home. We honestly did not look like we deserved to be there. Even with the system Trap prefers we could have been more competitve at the tournament if we actually had of done the things he likes to do. We didn't we froze and were shellshocked ever since the first croatian goal went in.

The system we use is wrong, it makes us sitting ducks for fluid passing teams. We need to adapt and bring in ball players. We need to pressurise oponents in their half of the field. We need to unshackle our wingers to pen opposing fullbacks back and get into positions where they can cause damage. We need pace upfront to play on the counter attack. We need to finally drop Glenn Whelan, I will never understand what he has ever brought to the team.

I would change to a 4-3-2-1 formation. Staying solid at the back, with an extra man in midfield to allow the wingers to push on more than now.

------------------------------GK

RB----------------CB---------------------CB----------------LB

------------------------------DCM

---------------------CM----------------CM

RW--------------------------------------------------------LW

-------------------------------ST

GK: Given, Westwood, Forde

RB: Coleman, Foley, Kelly
CB: Dunne, Sledge, Duffy, O'Shea, Clark, O'Dea
LB: Wilson, Ward, Cunningham,

DCM: McCarthy, Clark, Wilson, Meyler
CM: Andrews, Gibson, Keane, Fahey, Hoolahan

W:McGeady, McClean, Duff, Brady, Hunt, Treacy

ST:Long, Walters, Doyle, Cox, Best, Stokes

[mark12345]

Pirlo....drool.

He makes Gerrard look like a pub player.

Spot on. He does make Gerrard look like a pub player.

Don't care what anyone says about his exploits for Liverpool, Gerrard is a very very average player with a great engine. Remember back in the day Keane and Scholes used to have him running around chasing shadows. The reason Gerrard looks great is because he plays with great foreign players ever week. Ditto all the ENgland players and ditto all (or a few of) the Ireland players. England are better than Ireland, but are still crap. They don't even play football, only a version of a game that resembles football. And the same can be said for us.

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting column from Lee Carsley in today's Times, but I think as somebody pointed out a couple of days ago, Pirlo actually covered more ground than the English midfielders.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0627/1224318804865.html

[mark12345]

. The system we use is wrong, it makes us sitting ducks for fluid passing teams. We need to adapt and bring in ball players. We need to finally drop Glenn Whelan, I will never understand what he has ever brought to the team.

Are you me?

Sounds like listening to myself talk.

Obviously, having said that, I agree with all of the above, and glad to see someone else having a go at Whelan and Trap for picking him. Wes Hoolahan was a million miles the better option, even if it would have involved bringing him into the squad late on. Gibson was a better option and Keane (as a creative midfielder) was also a better option. But Trap couldn't do any of the above because it would have interfered with his precious 'system'. Some effing system.

I said all that you said before the tournament but was ridiculed (or so it seemed) as poster after poster expressed their undying faith in Whelan and the system. Got to wondering if I had missed something in the Russia games where they had picked us apart at will. Let's just say - don't adjust your mind, there's a fault in reality.

[the bear]

Are you me?

Sounds like listening to myself talk.

Obviously, having said that, I agree with all of the above, and glad to see someone else having a go at Whelan and Trap for picking him. Wes Hoolahan was a million miles the better option, even if it would have involved bringing him into the squad late on. Gibson was a better option and Keane (as a creative midfielder) was also a better option. But Trap couldn't do any of the above because it would have interfered with his precious 'system'. Some effing system.

I said all that you said before the tournament but was ridiculed (or so it seemed) as poster after poster expressed their undying faith in Whelan and the system. Got to wondering if I had missed something in the Russia games where they had picked us apart at will. Let's just say - don't adjust your mind, there's a fault in reality.

I've never had anything good to say about Whelan, he is not even good at the the things Trap supposedly picks him for (ie. harrying, tackling, breaking up play). Making him about as useful as a training cone in centre mid.https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEtCNiV6adxOmv2fXJZQN0NwtrTFzyw GIV-ui5aPAujbTCfpbzwQ (http://www.google.ie/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=949&bih=551&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Jd8P0zALIyc4IM:&imgrefurl=http://www.acasports.co.uk/product_info.php%3Fcpath%3D39_73_552%26products_id %3D306&docid=IHwBFy0obHhhOM&imgurl=http://www.acasports.co.uk/images/products/full/collapsible-cones-12-inch.jpg&w=300&h=300&ei=wrvqT8SYBY6FhQejt8nLBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=171&vpy=205&dur=1498&hovh=162&hovw=162&tx=101&ty=173&sig=109405555789908110965&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=109&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:0,i:111)

[bennocelt]

Spot on. He does make Gerrard look like a pub player.

Don't care what anyone says about his exploits for Liverpool, Gerrard is a very very average player with a great engine. Remember back in the day Keane and Scholes used to have him running around chasing shadows. The reason Gerrard looks great is because he plays with great foreign players ever week. Ditto all the ENgland players and ditto all (or a few of) the Ireland players. England are better than Ireland, but are still crap. They don't even play football, only a version of a game that resembles football. And the same can be said for us.

In the media over here, before the italy game, some were saying that Gerrard was one of the players of the tourno. I kid you not!!!

[OwlsFan]

The reason Gerrard looks great is because he plays with great foreign players ever week. Ditto all the ENgland players and ditto all (or a few of) the Ireland players. England are better than Ireland, but are still crap. They don't even play football, only a version of a game that resembles football. And the same can be said for us.

Who are these "great foreign players" Gerrard plays with at Liverpool and bearing in mind he seems to be better than most of his clubmates when playing for Liverpool they can't be that great since he is a pub player (apparently)?

If we are that crap, I assume you would like to pass a vote of thanks to Trapp for getting us to the elite Finals of Europe with such crap players?