Italy V Republic of Ireland - Monday, 18th June 2012 - Euro 2012 Group C

[tricky_colour]

I think perhaps it was always going to be a bridge too far, I think now we will have to start looking back
to the future, make some changes and bring in a few good men. Perhaps it is time for the godfather to get the bullet to.
We have seen everything in this campaign, the good the bad and the ugly, and singing in the rain.

[mark12345]

This tournament was all about blind loyalty from Trap, which devalues most of the worth he built up over the last couple of years. Blind loyalty to Whelan, Duff, Keane, O'Shea - all poison during this tournament and all kept on the pitch for far too long. Duff didn't have the beating of the full back today - McLean should have been on in his place. Keane was played in the wrong position again and we had no threat up front, even for the long ball game. And once again we couldn't string two passes together.

Back to the basics, way back. And Trap needs to lead the charge or get out.

[Colbert Report]

I love Robbie Keane, we're so lucky to have him, but there's no spring left in his step and I think it is time for him to step away from international duty.

[nigel-harps1954]

Thank f**k that's over.

[Fergie's Son]

Time to start again. Blood some new players and maybe reconsider our "plan B".

We're in a mighty tough group for the WC.

[mark12345]

Time to start again. Blood some new players and maybe reconsider our "plan B".

We're in a mighty tough group for the WC.

Just to think, through some stoke of magic, if we qualified for the WC we actually could jeopardise the qualification chances of Germany. What a travesty that would be?

[Stuttgart88]

The lads played their hearts out and it wasn't good enough. They're beyond criticism. But couldn't everyone see that the substitutions wre just random introductions of good players? Gibson could have slotted in alongside Whelan and Andrews, McClean could have come on and we'd have been able to retain the ball, pass it better and attack from the flanks.

I'm genuinely really fond of Trap, but I honestly don't think he can read the modern game. Yeah, Owls fan (who's opinion I respect more than many here) will bang on about we qualified and all that but when we engage teams we can compete. When we engage them with the right people on the pitch we can be better. It's no guarantee of success but I think it improves your chances. In full fairness to Trap, he was much needed after the Kerr & Stan limp failures where we became non-entities. Now I think we have the platform to be competitive in qualifying except now I think we can make qualifying a far less stressful affair by just taking teams on. This is a good Italy team, we lost, whoopy ding.

I'm pretty sure if you use the search function on this website for my username and the word 'engage' you'll find despairing wishes going back to the Kerr era of us dropping the draw away, win at home mentality. We're good enough to take lesser teams on and win, home and away. And I maintain that Sweden & Denmark are what we can aspire to. Serial qualifiers who from time to time do something of note, but they engage teams in qualifying rather than being coy & cagey with them.

[BonnieShels]

Excellent post Stutts. Bang on the money.

[shakermaker1982]

Just seen seen this on twitter

Pass completion % of starting elevens. Italy [83, 83, 77, 90, 80, 73, 62, 67, 80, 77, 79] Ire [50, 63, 62, 61, 53, 64, 36, 58, 48, 60, 51]

[SkStu]

I... have become comfortably numb.

[backstothewall]

An hour or so later I can just about bring myself to spill my thought on tonight out. I haven't put much blame Traps way so far, as I genuinely didn't see that things would have been much different no matter what he did. Tonight was different. Tonight was so so different.

Italy were there for the taking tonight. We should have had at least a point out of that game, but the manager made some dreadful decisions. Anyone could see that Whelan wasn't at the races tonight. Whether that was because he was tired or it wasn't doesn't really matter. Gibson should have been on at half time. Doyle was doing well, but Keane never threatened all night. Long should have come on for him with at least half an hour to go.

The substitutions that were made amounted to no more that sticking Walters into the mixer and lumping it up to the big man. It was never going to work, especially with that referee (who was diabolical). Andrews was stupid to get himself sent off but I can fully understand his frustration.

[amaccann]

I get most frustrated most by the "whatdya expect, we're not Barcelona" brigade, who think striving for the levels achieved by the likes of Denmark / Sweden - that of consistent competence & ruthlessness in qualifying - is madness. Self-improvement will always be a losing battle so long as the mentality persists that tonight was as good as things can get (and how dare anyone believe in anything better - shur hasn't Trap achieved enough?)

Irish fatalism, coupled with Trap's own lack of belief in our players blinded us to the notion that it would only take a few tweaks to make things better.

[BonnieShels]

I sat on the couch as the horror unfolded.
Tears welled up in frustration at his substitutions. I really am lost for words as to what the hell it was we witnessed tonight?

The only people I feel sorry for are Andrews and Sledge. The rest can go and...

Disgusted at that.

I'm keeping my knife in the drawer til Almaty... then we shall see...

EGO SUM BONNIE!

[strangeirish]

Roy says it's time to ring the changes (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/euro2012/4377157/Euro-2012-Roy-Keane-says-Republic-of-Ireland-should-dump-em-all.html).....(or Roy back on the attack)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/538450_411440302232935_990946482_n.jpg

[Stuttgart88]

The only people I feel sorry for are Andrews and Sledge. The rest can go and...Really? O'Shea was the only one tonight that I thought played below capacity. The rest put in an honest shift and were not good enough, but equally were lambs thrown into the slaughter by persisting with an outdated shape against the players' own wishes.

[Murfinator]

Just seen seen this on twitter

Pass completion % of starting elevens. Italy [83, 83, 77, 90, 80, 73, 62, 67, 80, 77, 79] Ire [50, 63, 62, 61, 53, 64, 36, 58, 48, 60, 51]

This is why people complaining about starting sides, system or use of subs is missing the point entirely. We across the board have a very poor pool of players who struggle to do the basics. Trap and the old brigade have done incredibly well to bring us to to two sets of playoffs, I'd fear with a few retirements replaced by squad players in mediocre premiership sides that things could get ugly. We're staring at the end of our golden era and into difficult times, getting hammered in tournament finals will soon be a luxury we'll yearn for.

[Murfinator]

Really? O'Shea was the only one tonight that I thought played below capacity. The rest put in an honest shift and were not good enough, but equally were lambs thrown into the slaughter by persisting with an outdated shape against the players' own wishes.

O'Shea has had an awful tournament, far and away our worst player. (Whelan not too far behind)
I'd feel sympathy for the front 4 having little to no supply but O'Shea had a chance to do his job and failed miserably in every game. He'd be the first one I'd be looking to replace for August, distribution from the back is absolutely essential when we don't have a superior midfield. While I think our problems are mostly with our pool of available players and I'd stay away from individual criticism I think O'Shea is one worthy of it, he was truly woeful.

[Serb]

Just seen seen this on twitter

Pass completion % of starting elevens. Italy [83, 83, 77, 90, 80, 73, 62, 67, 80, 77, 79] Ire [50, 63, 62, 61, 53, 64, 36, 58, 48, 60, 51]

It would be interesting to see who those stats apply to. Based on how the team is lined up on the various news sites, I'm guessing:

Given: 50%
O'Shea: 63%
St. Ledger: 62%
Dunne: 61%
Ward: 53%
McGeady: 64%
Whelan: 36%
Andrews: 58%
Duff: 48%
Keane: 60%
Doyle: 51%

Shocking anyway, regardless of individual culprits. Only McGeady (or whoever had 64%) had a higher pass completion percentage than any of the Italian players.

[brine3]

This is why people complaining about starting sides, system or use of subs is missing the point entirely. We across the board have a very poor pool of players who struggle to do the basics. Trap and the old brigade have done incredibly well to bring us to to two sets of playoffs, I'd fear with a few retirements replaced by squad players in mediocre premiership sides that things could get ugly. We're staring at the end of our golden era and into difficult times, getting hammered in tournament finals will soon be a luxury we'll yearn for.

Nah. Have you seen James McCarthy in action? The boy can read the game and pass the ball. That's what we're crying out for. At the moment Martinez is doing a good job at fixing him into a good player. Maybe Brendan Rodgers will take him to Liverpool and turn him into the finished article.

Centre midfield is where games are won and lost. If we can get McCarthy in there along with Fahey or... don't say it too loud... Stephen Ireland then that has to be an improvement on Whelan/Andrews.

[BonnieShels]

Really? O'Shea was the only one tonight that I thought played below capacity. The rest put in an honest shift and were not good enough, but equally were lambs thrown into the slaughter by persisting with an outdated shape against the players' own wishes.

Josh was gack tonight.

The other players played okay for an all too short period of the match. In fact I neglected to say anything about Duff who has been okay.

But overall Andrews and Sledge have done what they needed to do.

I don't accept that the players shouldn't take some blame for our shape. They should have just played football if they had any courage and felt what trap wanted was stupid. They didn't. And that is what has been sorely lacking since that night in Budapest.

[tricky_colour]

Just seen seen this on twitter

Pass completion % of starting elevens. Italy [83, 83, 77, 90, 80, 73, 62, 67, 80, 77, 79] Ire [50, 63, 62, 61, 53, 64, 36, 58, 48, 60, 51]

there is a bit about passing here (against Croatia)

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/06/11/3164808/play-higher-up-the-pitch-start-darron-gibson-five-things

[Carrigaline]

there is a bit about passing here (against Croatia)

http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/ireland/2012/06/11/3164808/play-higher-up-the-pitch-start-darron-gibson-five-things
So McGeady is probably not only our best passer, but our best tackler and winner of the ball, and a good chunk of our fans want him out of the team :rolleyes:

The mind truly boggles.

[brine3]

So McGeady is probably not only our best passer, but our best tackler and winner of the ball, and a good chunk of our fans want him out of the team :rolleyes:

The mind truly boggles.

Never understood the stick he gets either.

McClean is an exciting young talent but very much a typical Martin O'Neil Leicester City/Celtic type winger. Strong, fast and good at surging forward and all that but not half the footballer McGeady is.

[geysir]

Josh was gack tonight.

The other players played okay for an all too short period of the match. In fact I neglected to say anything about Duff who has been okay.

But overall Andrews and Sledge have done what they needed to do.

I don't accept that the players shouldn't take some blame for our shape. They should have just played football if they had any courage and felt what trap wanted was stupid. They didn't. And that is what has been sorely lacking since that night in Budapest.
There are too many who are not up to scratch, so choosing to play football is not an option. The only players I'd keep from that starting team, Dunne Sledge O'Shea (CM) McGeady, Doyle and Long,
Sorry mates, but Andrews hasn't got the midfield guile, put him on standby. Sacrifice qualification as the desideratum but focus on building a team that can play football and take the consequences on the chin, if need be.

[magicman]

Going into this game I didn't expect too much. All I wanted to see was a performance to be proud of. To head home with our heads held high. For the most part, the players gave it their all and I cannot fault them for that. Some of them are just not up to the job. O'Shea is not a full back anymore. Simple as that. It would have been more beneficial to have a real full back like Kelly playing.
He may not be up to the standard required but Ward deserves a mention. He shouldn't be wearing the no 3 jersey come August but he tried his hardest and stood up ok most of the time.
The midfield as a whole worked hard, and you cannot knock them for a lack of effort. They were overrun most times and that wasn't their fault.
Doyle tried hard too and it was a big improvement on his previous appearances.

What struck me most was how little we can offer. It was embarrassing. We defend well (most of the time) and that is because Trap drills it into the players. But is there anything at all with regard to attack? When we attacked this morning(in Melbourne time) we were completely clueless. There was no movement. Strikers ran straight ahead and tried to hold their lines; wingers ran for the corners and tried to cross; overlapping full backs stop and look to pass back to winger who then crosses.
The attack when Doyle and Keane found themselves on the left wing was one of the worst. While both were pulled out of position, not one player moved into the centre forward position to give them a target.
It reminded me of watching a decent Junior B team. They weren't bad in the back half, but once they break they have absolutely no ideas and unless the defence lets them through, the ball will probably be turned over.

The subs looked like token caps to be honest and they made no sense at all. Removing McGeady was one thing, but why not replace his with either Hunt or McClean? Or else Gibson and push Duff up and go 4-3-3?
Instead he brings on Long(who wasn't deemed good enough for the first two games) and I don't really know where he played. From that moment we lost shape. Walters was brought on to get as many forwards on the field as we could and then the Cox substitute just didn't make sense. It was like he just gave him the last couple of minutes for the sake of it.

I think Trap has done the job he was brought in to do. He set a good base, got us to a playoff and then pushed on to get us to a tournament. This should have been his swansong.

I mentioned at the start of the Where to next thread that while change is needed and important, it cannot be done in one lump. Get players like Wilson, McCarthy, Long into the team from the start. Bring them in instead of Ward, Keane and Doyle. Switch to 4-5-1. Replace O'Shea at right back if possible and Duff on one of the wings.
So look at the first friendly with a team of:
Gk: Westwood - if he plays well enough then keep him there for the first qualifier. That would also be on the condition that he is playing first team football.
RB: Kelly - has experience and would hopefully give Coleman time to settle in at RB with Everton. Maybe give Foley a run
LB: Wilson
CB: Dunne and Sledge are first choice unless Dunne goes. If Sledge is not playing first team football I'd bring in O'Shea to start with Duffy or Clark as next in line.
CM: Andrews, Whelan, McCarthy to start. With Gibson to come in and replace one of the first two.
LW: McClean/McGeady
RW: McGeady/Pilkington/Walters
FW: Long

If we went out with something along those lines, only McCarthy and Wilson would be "new" players. Most importantly though, the spine of the side would remain the same. Gibson could replace Whelan and if he came back, Ireland could eventually replace Andrews.

[irishultra]

We are so tragic.

[Murfinator]

Never understood the stick he gets either.

McClean is an exciting young talent but very much a typical Martin O'Neil Leicester City/Celtic type winger. Strong, fast and good at surging forward and all that but not half the footballer McGeady is.

McClean is a very limited player whose unfortunately been set up for a downfall by bizarrely being declared as a cornerstone to our future.

[SkStu]

I generally kind of get the point you are making re McClean murfinator but I'd qualify it a bit by saying that, with a lot of work and application, he could become a good player and a decent international player but I don't think he is the messiah he's being made out to be. He's certainly primed to "fail".

By the way, on my ipad, murfinator = muffin actor :)

[tricky_colour]

Let's face it, if Messi had came on instead of McClean he would have looked ****e too!!

And actually McClean did a good job when he came on, people only remember him failing to get past a defender
once but forget all his other good work.

[bwagner]

im getting a camera up my ass in july because i have stomach problems - i would rather what the dvd of my inner bowel than this team under that stubborn git

[Adrock]

Lots of talk about our 'shape' being what's getting us pumped every game because 4-4-2 isnt flavour of the month right now and Glen Whelan thinks we should play differently.
Would having 3 inadequate midfielders chasing shadows against Spain have made any odds though really? We play 4-4-2 because it suits the playing squad we have. Our strength if we have one and most of our creativity comes through our wingers. Duff and Mcgeady are dribble down the wing kind of players, they wouldnt be suited to the kind of attacking traingle Russia have for instance with Arshavin and Dzagoev.
The only unbeaten team in the group matches and 2 other team in our own group play a fairly conventional version of 4-4-2 but they do better because they have better players and because mentally they are stronger and dont get bamboozled when the opposition start passing the ball around. We've not been beaten so emphatically because of any particular tactical failing, its more a collective lack of concentration, fortitude and (with the exception of Andrews who maybe showed a little too much) passion. This is worrying as its not like us as a team and footballing nation. When the going got tough they didn't get going but just gave the impression they wanted it all to be over, perhaps realising they had achieved their maximum potential just to get to the tournament or maybe they really did feel it would just be like playing Estonia all over again and were overcome with shock when it wasnt.

[Adrock]

Is McClean going to be another Sean St Ledger, people distorting his actual contribution to a game in to something infinitely greater than it was?
You are saying he played well because you'd decided before he came on to the pitch that he would do. He could become an important player for us in the future but trying to sugarcoat the reality of what happens on the pitch isnt helping anyone.

[mark12345]

The only players I'd keep from that starting team, Dunne Sledge O'Shea (CM) McGeady, Doyle and Long.

Good choices all except O'Shea. I wouldn't let him watch the game never mind play in it.

"Sorry mates, but Andrews hasn't got the midfield guile, put him on standby. Sacrifice qualification as the desideratum but focus on building a team that can play football and take the consequences on the chin, if need be"

Good point. Andrews deserves a lot of credit for his effort, but he isn't up to the standard. Still ahead of Whelan mind you, but still not up to snuff.

You're looking at two of McCarthy, Gibson, and dare I say it, Ireland for the two central midfield berths.

[Charlie Darwin]

True story: I've never heard the word 'guile' used outside the context of Street Fighter or Ireland's midfield.

Andrews has plenty of guile. There's a reason he had more shots on goal during the tournament than all of our strikers combined.

[mark12345]

Looking at England right now (versus Ukraine) and they, with all their millions of pounds worth of talent are second best to Ukraine. It's truly the English style of play which is the malaise (for Ireland).

[mark12345]

He's not even close to international standard. Ok, there are plenty like him in the Irish team, but Andrews is in a pivotal position and must be dropped. You mention reasons. There's a reason he keeps getting coaxed down the the lower divisions.

[Charlie Darwin]

He's been coaxed down the divisions once, barring the one slide he had at the start of his career.

He's exactly the type of player who excels in international football - he's not technically great, but he's full of pride and has the character to take control when others around him aren't performing.

[the bear]

im getting a camera up my ass in july because i have stomach problems - i would rather what the dvd of my inner bowel than this team under that stubborn git

agree to easy to penetrate at the back, need a big target and 1 in the hole for success

[mark12345]

He's been coaxed down the divisions once, barring the one slide he had at the start of his career.
He's exactly the type of player who excels in international football - he's not technically great, but he's full of pride and has the character to take control when others around him aren't performing.

That, in a nutshell, is the attitude which has Irish football where it is today. We keep championing players who are not even close to the required standard. But as long as their full of pride that's all we care about.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, work-rate and leadership are so overrated. That's why the Netherlands are odds-on to win the title.

[tricky_colour]

Shame we didn't get the luck of the English.

[geysir]

True story: I've never heard the word 'guile' used outside the context of Street Fighter or Ireland's midfield.

Andrews has plenty of guile. There's a reason he had more shots on goal during the tournament than all of our strikers combined.
Our midfield has been poor, both of our midfield players. A few shots on goal doesn't hide that performance nor does it compensate for other deficiencies., nor does it define midfield guile.
Andrews could do a job as back up in the next campaign, he's also getting on in football years. If our future midfield is going to depend on Keith as first choice, we have not an earthly of developing a team that can play football.
Both Andrews and Whelan define the midfield style that has become a plague, it functioned on occasions, more so when the other team was more poor or when they dropped back, that midfield can be read like a book and we are looking at 3rd or 4th place with that pairing in the next qualifiers.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Whelan is more likely to be consigned to back up, or should be.

Andrews is going to miss two games so change will be forced. I'm a bit like a broken record here but I think Andrews and Gibson with one other could be good - the one other most likely being McCarthy but Whelan deserves a look in a 3. I really like Andrews' athleticism and if midfield is somewhat secured and he is freed up a bit I think he has more to give. Our midfield two are perpetually on the back foot. As my mate said in the pub last night we always play 2 midfielders against 3 better midfielders so what chance do they have?

[shakermaker1982]

I'd ditch both. McCarthy, Fahey, Meyler & Gibson can duke it out for the spots.

[geysir]

AFAIA, cards picked up at the Euro Final's competition do not carry over to the WC qualification, even if the cards accumulate for a suspension.
Andrews could function with McCarthy and Gibson. Fahey's injury record rules him out.
We can assume that a player like Andrews who depends mainly on athleticism is going to lose a precious few degrees from now on, he's nearly 32 years old now

[the bear]

pretty sure that red card would have him suspended

[geysir]

I'm not sure about a straight red, but 99% sure that yellow cards no matter how many, do not carry over to the WC qualifiers.

edit
At least that's how I understand this


21.05 Cautions and pending yellow-card suspensions from the final tournament expire atthe end of the competition.


taken from http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/competitions/euro/91/87/57/918757_download.pdf

[the bear]

thats true, so sledger who had two yellows wont be suspended, but andrews will with his red. i think

[Irwin3]

Andrews definitely misses one game. Speculation that UEFA could increase it to two for his reaction.

http://www.setanta.com/ie/Articles/2012/06/19/Andrews-facing-two-match-ban/gnid-145411/

[geysir]

Maybe I have misunderstood it.. I thought that there was a difference between picking up 2 yellows in the same game as distinct from a straight red.
So, Andrews is not looking at a yellow card suspension, he is facing a red card suspension?
That competition rule just applies to cards picked up in different games at the Finals?