Spain V Republic of Ireland - Thursday, 14th June 2012 - Euro 2012 Group C

[tricky_colour]

Nice of Spain to spare our delicate feelings for the last 20 minutes by playing with no forwards, or were they perhaps just trying desperately to stem the offensive onslaught we were subjecting them to?
I'm glad anyway Mclean got his chance to run like a headless chicken towards the nearest group of Spanish players though, to at least prevent the inevitable strawclutching by journalists, commentators and people in bars that if only he was on the pitch it would all have been so different............

To be fair we actually gave it our best shot, there was no casualness, tactical naivety or general cluelesness going on like in the Staunton era it was just a chasm in class. They had Xavi and Iniesta in the middle of the park, we had Whelan and Andrews. They brought Fabregas on off the bench, we brought on Paul Green.We got anyone playing Champions league these days who's going have faced that kind of football recently

Still you cant play Estonia every big game can you? They've just got to dust themselves off, try and learn a few lessons in the art of damage limitation and concentration, haul St Ledger up off his ass and try and come back in a few days and show we are not in fact the worst team in the tournament. That at least will give our ever wondrous fans something legitimate so sing and dance about at least.

They started with no forwards against Italy I think. Anyway I would say the Spanish probably expect any of their players to be able to score a goal
not just 'forwards'.

[geysir]

I don't know what the fuss was about Walters must play, he was cráp, oafish at best. Nice to see McClean get on but he was out of his depth.
The two players most would have selected from the start, would have made zero positive difference.
Strange to see experienced players like Dunne, Whelan and O'Shea crumble at this tournament and a rookie modestly talented Ward do his honest best and a bit more.

Some nice passes from McGeady in the 2nd half but we were just firefighting for the most part against a class team.
There was a typical farcical gaff from the RTE panel (Giles) picking on Green as culpable for the 4th goal with an exasperated Brady vainly trying to explain it had absolutely nothing to do with Green.

[Adrock]

Thats the difference between this Spain team and the last 2 tournaments. They had Torres first then Villa coming off dynamite form previously, this year noone's got to double figures in league goals at least, Torres and Pedro have both been off color this season and Villa injured.
Barcelona and Real have Messi and Ronaldo to finish of their moves, but for all their midfield genius the thousand or so passes Spain strung together relect a lack of forward outlet as much as anything. Of course when confronted by a defensive and midfield shield with gaps you could drive a imperial starcruiser through this isnt such a problem and you can still knock in 4 goals.

Talking of the dying striker's art, am I the only one to think Kevin Doyle actually put up quite an impressive show against Croatia and even looked a bit threatening? Everyone was quick to jump on the Jon Walters bandwagon but Id sooner have Doyle leading the line with Keane and us giving it a real go against Italy. Their only decent defensive fullback is in a police interrogation centre so Id like to see Duff and Mcgeady getting down the corners and putting some balls in the box. Of course we've got a to get hold of the ball for more than 5 seconds first but thats going to be an easier job against the boys in blue than the boys in red.

[mark12345]

. I cannot fault Cox because he did the job he was asked to do. And he did it to the best of his abilities. But why in God's name did Keane not play that role and Long or Walters up top?

Finally, someone who recognizes a problem when they see it. Fair dos to you magicman, I've been saying Keane should be in midfield for over a year now. And today bore it out. He is a creative player but two yards off the pace to be a striker.

Robbie would have been best placed in midfield - I said it a long time ago on here and was laughed off the stage. Well who's laughing today? Keane as a striker against Spain was a useless idea and Trap needs to answer for his lack of knowledge of his players.

Look, we would have got beaten today no matter what because we just don't have the ability to hold the ball. But there were players and permutations that Trap could have used. I'll give you a few - Keane in midfield, Hoolanhan in midfield and a proper right back (O'Shea has never been more anonymous in his whole career) like Coleman.

[irishultra]

Keane is not a 'creative player' he's a goal poacher, where did this myth that Keane is some sort of Totti-esque, number 10 come from?

[mark12345]

Strange to see experienced players like Dunne, Whelan and O'Shea crumble at this tournament and a rookie modestly talented Ward do his honest best and a bit more.

Can you be really honest with me? I mean really honest. Do you think Whelan or O'Shea are worthy of being picked to play international football?
They are two of the worst players Ireland has ever produced.

Dunne, let's give him credit for Russia away, and a few more highlight games, but while we're being honest with one another, all Richard is is a lad with a big frame and a big heart. He has zero football skills. If you think I'm wrong, compare him to say Pique or Puyol. When the ball comes out of the air they take it on their chest, touch pass it to a team mate and get the return. They build a move from there and are always available for the return pass if needed. They are rarely troubled by a forward because they are pristine perfect in their handling of the ball.

Our RIchard on the other hand puts a big head on the ball and heads it to an opponent and spends the next few minutes trying to put out the fire he has started. Not his fault really because no one ever coached him to play like a defender should. It's a similar problem with most of the Irish players.

[geysir]

Are you insinuating i'm not honest?
How dare you! ;)

[Razors left peg]

Gutless, Spineless and trying to play prehistoric football. Outclassed by a fantastic team but every one of the goals came from stupid mistakes exactly like the Croatia game. One thing Irish teams have always done is work harder than the opposition, Trappatoni has even taken that out of us. Starting Keane up front on his own was beyond belief and there is no way to even begin justifying that decision. Massive changes needed for the World cup qualifers. We looked lacking in any sort of belief and confidence and that has to come from the manager. Nobody can convince me that we dont have good enough players to play proper football... Norwich and Swansea play fantastic football with inferior players than what we have.

[ger121]

Ireland in the Euros has reminded me of Rovers in the Europa League. Great achievement to get there, but hopelessly out of their depth once they're there, scoring nil pois!

[NeverFeltBetter]

An American I know just told me that Given is, at 36, "youngish" for a keeper.

I don't know what to say back.

[SwanVsDalton]

Mentally that team was fundamentally broken. Damage done back in Poznan. The lack of fight almost inexcusable, even against a class side (playing in low gear). It will be fascinating to see what happens in the run up to the WC quals.

Special to be part of the epic chants at the end, shame it came on the back of some abject performances.

[mark12345]

Keane is not a 'creative player' he's a goal poacher, where did this myth that Keane is some sort of Totti-esque, number 10 come from?

Robbie is a creative player. All things are relative and while he's not Iniesta or David Silva in terms of creativity he is about the most creative we've got. Just do the litmus test next time you see him ( ie what happens when he gets the ball, can he hold it up, can he give himself time and space to pick a pass, can he effect that pass). He can do all of the above but unfortunately he's lost quite a bit of pace in his game. That's why he should be used as a creative player behind the front two. In terms of cretivity he's light years ahead of WHelan or ANdrews. Playing him up front against Spain was such a waste.

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, if you turn it on it's head, seeing how limited we are against top class opposition shows how huge and achievement it was to qualify.
Probably more likely that we had a ridiculously easy run to qualify. Estonia and Armenia? A Slovakia side who hit self-destruct after the World Cup? Russia destroyed us home and away, and we were steeped to get the results we did against them. Our luck ran out in the last week. We're really not very good. And who's coming through? Our best players are probably still Given, Dunne, Keane, O'Shea and Duff - lose them in a couple of years and we'll be even worse.


Em worst teams? Bulgaria were pretty damn bad, along with Latvia in 2004, but our play mirrors that of the Latvians, I think Bulgaria just lost the plot.
Latvia were competitive in all three games, as I recall. Last night was an embarrassment. How did Fabregas get so much time for the fourth when he was the only Spanish player against eight Irish in the box? What was Given's punch about for the second? More to the point, who was it scuffed his hoof from defence 20 yards to the nearest Spanish player to set that goal up? How often did we give the ball back for no reason at all?

Strange how far downhill we've gone in the last campaign - in 2010, we had the super performances away to Italy and France. Have teams just figured us out?

Not looking forward to Monday. Almost thankful I won't be able to watch it. Lump your money on Germany and Sweden for 1-2 in the World Cup group.

[geysir]

Yeah, Latvia were okay in 2004, no disgrace there, Stepanovs turned into a lion for Latvia.
On occasion a good team drops back and we can flow, France in Paris and Italy in Bari after they went down to 10, but those games are the big exceptions.
One big thing for us, adding catenaccio caution as the dominant ingredient into the mix of defending/attacking/ball retention/passing, doesn't gel into our game and players in key areas can't manage to play a natural game with this overriding caution. Steven Reid could but he was gone after 2 games.

[Colbert Report]

We just don't have the horses, nothing wrong with being beaten by the best. On another day we could have gotten a result against Croatia but we could play this Spanish team one hundred times and I'd say we'd be lucky to get a single draw against them. Complete and total domination. People are going on about the system being the problem, but really and truly, no system with any available Irish player would have been able to compete with that.

We produce a world class player about once every ten years: Giles, Brady, McGrath, Roy Keane, maybe Duff for a few years in the earlier part of the past decade. In fairness to Robbie, he was a world class finisher in his day I guess. Countries like Spain have ten times the population so it stands to reason that they'd be turning out one of these players every year instead of once every ten years.

People go on about Trap using this system and how bad it is, but in fairness, he's working with two very limited players in central midfield. As we all know, central midfield is largely where the game is won or lost. I don't mean to knock Andrews or Whelan as I like them both, in particular Andrews who I thought was our best player in both matches. Keep in mind that Trap always said that he'd change the system were he to have more creative players available to him. One could argue that he has players like Hoolahan and Andy Reid at his disposal but didn't choose to pick them. I don't think either are up to international level. A 4-2-3-1 system of play is the way modern football is going, and I think that out of the three central midfielders in that formation, we'd do well with James McCarthy in one of the two holding roles and......dare I say his name......Stephen Ireland in the attacking midfield role behind the striker. His link up play is amazing and say whatever you want about him, he's a class player on his day.

[bwagner]

Sitting at work listening to 3 non Irish people laugh their heads off at Ireland's "performance" last night - I can’t be bothered to tell them off because that was the most gutless muck I ever watched - the laughing stock of football now - this has been on the cards for years - heavy defeats against Poland ,Australia, Uruguay , Russia, Croatia and Spain - plus countless backs to the wall anti football - I can’t stomach anymore - its kills me to say this but I wish we didn’t qualify
it’s my only true hobby and one of my few loves and it’s been destroyed but sure your Irish way yay drink drink bla bla

[brine3]

Yeah, we are the Saudi Arabia of this tournament. ****ing disgrace.

Still, if we get a draw against Italy and Holland lose to Portugal... then we have more points than Holland. :D

[elroy]

For the sake of the public image of the team and to give us fans over here in Poland something to cheer about, I really hope we put in a performance on monday

[Closed Account 2]

I hope we (somehow) beat Italy and finish 3rd, which on paper (and ignoring the insipid performances of the last two games) will give us a smattering of pride back.

I cant see it happening though.

[geysir]

I'm disappointed for sure but I couldn't give a fiddlers about public image and neither do I feel in the least bit embarrassed by events so far. I'm more wondering where can we go from here.
Exits from Euro88, WC90 and 2002 were total and utter sickeners. Some other exits (WC 94 and some playoffs) hurt but you kinda knew that was as far as it would go.
Sometimes a team needs a complete burnout and then rebuild with some current, some new players and a more effective game resolve.
A dead rubber game for us against Italy is not likely to be a game that we can hang any hat on.

[barney]

Very disappointing performance. I’m a Trap fan and I know Spain are top class but there is no way we are that far behind them. While respecting what he’s achieved with us, I don’t agree with Trap’s selections and tactics and ultimately, Spain and Croatia made us look worse than we are at this level. I accept that Gibson and McCarthy aren’t world beaters but they are better ball players than Whelan and Andrews. We need a workhorse in midfield? Fair enough, play Whelan but there is still room for Gibson and/or McCarthy.

Stephen Ward is a poor left back and we had other options. St Ledger is poor. We had other options. O’Shea is a better centre back than full back IMO and that’s where he should be played especially with players like Coleman, Kelly, Clarke and Wilson who can cover the full back positions. Dunne was sub-par, I assume due to fitness/match practice, so not sure what the solution was there but might have helped to have O’Shea alongside him rather than St Ledger (in my book).

We would never have beaten Spain, regardless of who we had out, and maybe Croatia too but we should have been better and we can be better. All the talk about reforming the game here is spot on but if anyone thinks you’ll reap the fruits of that before 2020-2025 or so, you’re deluded. That notwithstanding, I don’t want to witness what I saw last night again and I don’t think there is any excuse for it. I do believe in Trap because I don’t believe that he was as successful as he’s been by conceding possession of the ball as readily as Ireland do. I hope he learns from this and he has earned the right to have that opportunity.

In terms of reforming the game, we need coaches that don’t think it’s okay to always punt the ball long under pressure, that don’t encourage every player to pile into the same 18 yard space when we get a free kick in the opposition’s half and that instil in our youngsters that it’s their obligation to find space and make angles for a pass when a team-mate has the ball not just wait for him to find you.

[elroy]

I hope we (somehow) beat Italy and finish 3rd, which on paper (and ignoring the insipid performances of the last two games) will give us a smattering of pride back.

I cant see it happening though.

Tactically the game should suit trap. They need to win and must attack us. If we play and defend as we used to before this tournament then we'd frustrate them and hit them on the break/set pieces. How ironic that under trap we had a good record of scoring early goals, that it has deserted us this tournament and instead we now concede after 3 mins.

[Closed Account 2]

How badly have these two results stuffed up our rankings? Or is the damage not that great given we were facing teams ranked ahead of us?

[mark12345]

Very disappointing performance. I’m a Trap fan and I know Spain are top class but there is no way we are that far behind them. While respecting what he’s achieved with us, I don’t agree with Trap’s selections and tactics and ultimately, Spain and Croatia made us look worse than we are at this level. I accept that Gibson and McCarthy aren’t world beaters but they are better ball players than Whelan and Andrews. We need a workhorse in midfield? Fair enough, play Whelan but there is still room for Gibson and/or McCarthy.

Stephen Ward is a poor left back and we had other options. St Ledger is poor. We had other options. O’Shea is a better centre back than full back IMO and that’s where he should be played especially with players like Coleman, Kelly, Clarke and Wilson who can cover the full back positions. Dunne was sub-par, I assume due to fitness/match practice, so not sure what the solution was there but might have helped to have O’Shea alongside him rather than St Ledger (in my book).

We would never have beaten Spain, regardless of who we had out, and maybe Croatia too but we should have been better and we can be better. All the talk about reforming the game here is spot on but if anyone thinks you’ll reap the fruits of that before 2020-2025 or so, you’re deluded. That notwithstanding, I don’t want to witness what I saw last night again and I don’t think there is any excuse for it. I do believe in Trap because I don’t believe that he was as successful as he’s been by conceding possession of the ball as readily as Ireland do. I hope he learns from this and he has earned the right to have that opportunity.

In terms of reforming the game, we need coaches that don’t think it’s okay to always punt the ball long under pressure, that don’t encourage every player to pile into the same 18 yard space when we get a free kick in the opposition’s half and that instil in our youngsters that it’s their obligation to find space and make angles for a pass when a team-mate has the ball not just wait for him to find you.

PROBABLY THE BEST POST ON THIS SITE (OR ANY OTHER) IN A LONG WHILE.

Barney, you hit all the points and your discussion about the coaching of the game is spot on. This is the sort of discussion we need to be having - leave emotion and disappointment in the rearview mirror and let's start talking about how to change the game at home. How can we turn our kids into Iniestas, Silvas and Torreses?

[mark12345]

People go on about Trap using this system and how bad it is, but in fairness, he's working with two very limited players in central midfield. As we all know, central midfield is largely where the game is won or lost. .

Can defend Trap there, can we? Whelan and Andrews were 'his' players in 'his' system.

You correctly point to Hoolahan - better on his own than the two of them - and McCarthy. Ok McCarthy wasn't there but Gibson was. The failings of Whelan and Andrews (and as much as he tried he did fail to do a proper job) are all Trap's.

[the bear]

How can we turn our kids into Iniestas, Silvas and Torreses?

get them on the sun beds

[Stuttgart88]

I actiually thought St Ledger played well in both games, especially the first.

[eekers]

We just don't have the horses, nothing wrong with being beaten by the best. On another day we could have gotten a result against Croatia but we could play this Spanish team one hundred times and I'd say we'd be lucky to get a single draw against them. Complete and total domination. People are going on about the system being the problem, but really and truly, no system with any available Irish player would have been able to compete with that.

We produce a world class player about once every ten years: Giles, Brady, McGrath, Roy Keane, maybe Duff for a few years in the earlier part of the past decade. In fairness to Robbie, he was a world class finisher in his day I guess. Countries like Spain have ten times the population so it stands to reason that they'd be turning out one of these players every year instead of once every ten years.

People go on about Trap using this system and how bad it is, but in fairness, he's working with two very limited players in central midfield. As we all know, central midfield is largely where the game is won or lost. I don't mean to knock Andrews or Whelan as I like them both, in particular Andrews who I thought was our best player in both matches. Keep in mind that Trap always said that he'd change the system were he to have more creative players available to him. One could argue that he has players like Hoolahan and Andy Reid at his disposal but didn't choose to pick them. I don't think either are up to international level. A 4-2-3-1 system of play is the way modern football is going, and I think that out of the three central midfielders in that formation, we'd do well with James McCarthy in one of the two holding roles and......dare I say his name......Stephen Ireland in the attacking midfield role behind the striker. His link up play is amazing and say whatever you want about him, he's a class player on his day.

We don't even need world class players. Just look at Swansea. Why can't we emulate that? Or Chile in 2010?

[mark12345]

We don't even need world class players. Just look at Swansea. Why can't we emulate that? Or Chile in 2010?

Agree 100%. Look at Athletic Bilbao. All players from the same town (possibly some from other parts of the same Basque region) I believe.

Could we do the same with 11 kids from, say, Athlone?

How did Bilbao proudce a team that went to Old Trafford and all but humiliated United? Coaching. It's all down to coaching at the end of the day.

[Eminence Grise]

How can we turn our kids into Iniestas, Silvas and Torreses?

Make babies with sultry Spanish senoritas?

I, for one, will not be found wanting if my country calls.

[tricky_colour]

An American I know just told me that Given is, at 36, "youngish" for a keeper.

I don't know what to say back.

I think the US expression is "Bull****!!"

[Wolfie]

They say that luck will balance itself out.

It's like the charmed life our defense led in Moscow has been balanced out with interest.

We need a fundamental shift from "System first, Personnel second" to a situation where all players, creative or otherwise, are given every opportunity to prove their worth and build a system around the collective strengths of the pool of players at our disposal.

[CraftyToePoke]

We need a fundamental shift from "System first, Personnel second"

Particularly when that system is openly stated as being in place as its the only way to send our players out, due directly to their lack of ability. When that fails, and it took 48 minutes, it leaves nowhere to go, no fallback. They went out against Spain hoping for the best but knowing what was coming I thought.

[DeLorean]

Bumping thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xZNGKvzLKA

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.