How the rest of the world see us....

[Stuttgart88]

Weren't Rangers players (and players mistaken for Rangers players) roundly booed in Lansdowne for years, including pre-2002?
We spent years debating that here! My own view was that it was a bit different, though daytime RTE made it out to be sectarian. Rangers is an anti-Irish institution, hence the booing, although obviously there was a large element of "we're automatically all Celtic" unfortunately. Look, if Peter Robinson or Maggie Thatcher walked out onto the pitch at half time and got booed would it be sectarian? Or just political hate figures for the Irish? Rangers FC is in the latter category for me - and a huge number of non-Celtic affiliated Scots for that matter.

After the guy who was not Lovenkrands (Madsen?) got booed and the PA announcer told the crowd (not the crows) to be quiet the crowd then booed every Ireland touch and cheered every Danish touch. I think it said it all about the nature of the booing. We also booed the Yugoslav anthem in the early 90s I think - a very rare occurrance but hard to complain about in context.

[O'Shea's Boot]

This post is just as much of a generalisation as the one on the oasisblues site.

Not trying to generalise Bucky - as I said Im only back from Poland and in most of my dealing with groups from the North it was FTQ/IRA chants - its not what a proper Ireland supporters about - these things are now on you tube and it gives the illusion that this is what Ireland fans are like - dont like it

[bennocelt]

Not trying to generalise Bucky - as I said Im only back from Poland and in most of my dealing with groups from the North it was FTQ/IRA chants - its not what a proper Ireland supporters about - these things are now on you tube and it gives the illusion that this is what Ireland fans are like - dont like it

You mean like the rugby support?

[tetsujin1979]

We spent years debating that here! My own view was that it was a bit different, though daytime RTE made it out to be sectarian. Rangers is an anti-Irish institution, hence the booing, although obviously there was a large element of "we're automatically all Celtic" unfortunately. Look, if Peter Robinson or Maggie Thatcher walked out onto the pitch at half time and got booed would it be sectarian? Or just political hate figures for the Irish? Rangers FC is in the latter category for me - and a huge number of non-Celtic affiliated Scots for that matter.

After the guy who was not Lovenkrands (Madsen?) got booed and the PA announcer told the crowd (not the crows) to be quiet the crowd then booed every Ireland touch and cheered every Danish touch. I think it said it all about the nature of the booing. We also booed the Yugoslav anthem in the early 90s I think - a very rare occurrance but hard to complain about in context.

yeah, it was Madsen who was booed. The announcer introduced him as Lovenkrands when he came on, then later corrected it.

[peadar1987]

We spent years debating that here! My own view was that it was a bit different, though daytime RTE made it out to be sectarian. Rangers is an anti-Irish institution, hence the booing, although obviously there was a large element of "we're automatically all Celtic" unfortunately. Look, if Peter Robinson or Maggie Thatcher walked out onto the pitch at half time and got booed would it be sectarian? Or just political hate figures for the Irish? Rangers FC is in the latter category for me - and a huge number of non-Celtic affiliated Scots for that matter.

After the guy who was not Lovenkrands (Madsen?) got booed and the PA announcer told the crowd (not the crows) to be quiet the crowd then booed every Ireland touch and cheered every Danish touch. I think it said it all about the nature of the booing. We also booed the Yugoslav anthem in the early 90s I think - a very rare occurrance but hard to complain about in context.

To be fair, I'd boo a Celtic player just as quickly. Boooooo!

[O'Shea's Boot]

You mean like the rugby support?
No definitely not - Im not a rugby man ...... I mean proper Ireland football fan who supports the team with all their heart without singing all that sectarian ****e in full view of the world - does my fcukin head in

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm. If anything the Irish support is way too passive collectively these days.
Not suggesting we should boo Balotelli or sing the rebs, but the FOA is the height of it.
Really.

[O'Shea's Boot]

Hmm. If anything the Irish support is way too passive collectively these days.
Not suggesting we should boo Balotelli or sing the rebs, but the FOA is the height of it.
Really.
your point is a good one - we have limited songs and rely on FOA too much - how do we get around this

[bennocelt]

No definitely not - Im not a rugby man ...... I mean proper Ireland football fan who supports the team with all their heart without singing all that sectarian ****e in full view of the world - does my fcukin head in

Was in Twickers for the big rugby match a few weeks ago (house party) and there was virtually no atmosphere in the town, was funny for me to experience the difference betweena rugger and football crowd.
You keep mentioning sectarian chanting - without wanthing to go into specific's what were the chants? I just surprised:D

[gastric]

your point is a good one - we have limited songs and rely on FOA too much - how do we get around this

Ireland's Call is the obvious one, but it is pretty ordinary! Sure wouldn't McClean, Gibson and Wilson love to hear reference to 'the four proud provinces of Ireland'.

[ArdeeBhoy]

"Ireland's Call" just sounds naff. Even at the rugby.

[back of the net]

I checked over on to the Tartan Army forum to see how our neighbours viewed our euro 2012 performance against spain (see link)

As per expected the alot of them think were sh*te, while some were not so hard on us as we were playing spain and others think were worse than scotland (with most of them thinking so cos they still hate mcgeady for declaring from us)

However there was alot of posters (non celtic fans included ) who commented on how great the gdansk version of the Fields of Athenry and that our fans deserved alot of credit.
http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=138130&st=120


Back on point though - I do agree that our song base is limited but dont agree with A.Bhoys point that we are too collectively passive away from home.....Tallinn 2011 , Bratislava 2010, paris 09, bari, 09, sofia 09 , stuttgart 06 , amsterdam 04 just some games that spring to mind when imo when our fans collectively support wise were fantastic

[ArdeeBhoy]

At most of those, but some of them were years ago.

We can make a noise away but too many of our songs are the same 5 or so tired tunes which are starting to sound contrived at this stage. Even FOA.

[irishultra]

I See Spain have been criticized for how they've played so far with many discounting their performance against us because of how utterly crap we are. Hard to argue.

[DannyInvincible]

We spent years debating that here! My own view was that it was a bit different, though daytime RTE made it out to be sectarian. Rangers is an anti-Irish institution, hence the booing, although obviously there was a large element of "we're automatically all Celtic" unfortunately. Look, if Peter Robinson or Maggie Thatcher walked out onto the pitch at half time and got booed would it be sectarian? Or just political hate figures for the Irish? Rangers FC is in the latter category for me - and a huge number of non-Celtic affiliated Scots for that matter.

After the guy who was not Lovenkrands (Madsen?) got booed and the PA announcer told the crowd (not the crows) to be quiet the crowd then booed every Ireland touch and cheered every Danish touch. I think it said it all about the nature of the booing. We also booed the Yugoslav anthem in the early 90s I think - a very rare occurrance but hard to complain about in context.

I agree that there were very different dynamics at play in the two aforementioned contexts compared to Irish Manchester United fans booing Balotelli in Poznan. So, is it justified/more justified (?) if political so long as it's not sectarian/racist or moronically related to British club rivalries?


No definitely not - Im not a rugby man ...... I mean proper Ireland football fan who supports the team with all their heart without singing all that sectarian ****e in full view of the world - does my fcukin head in

What was the sectarian stuff being sung? And can you be sure it was only northerners?

[Stuttgart88]

So, is it justified/more justified (?) if political so long as it's not sectarian/racist or moronically related to British club rivalries?I would say yes if the political context was that a blatantly anti-Irish organisation was the target. If the political context was that the target had a different view on Obamacare or how to fund greyhound racing, it'd just be silly.

I'd prefer for there to be no booing except for cheating, referee decisions etc. but I find it hard to fathom how some people just plainly fail to recognise any difference between sectarian and any other motive.

[paul_oshea]

A laughing stock id imagine, and rightly so. The Defenders of the Great who for so long stuck by and lived in their bubbles on here must have serious egg on their face now. Although they probably don't even realise it and might even imagine that they never said it in the first place.

If a team ever says before a game that they expect to beat us i will no longer get annoyed at the arrogance or ignorance of said team about our team. It can only be a fair assumption.

[Stuttgart88]

I think laughing stock is a bit extreme Paul. They'd think we were out of our depth but fair play for getting there.

I'd say they see us as a small nation who were pitted up against 2 giants of world football and one of the best tier 2 teams.*


I'm not sure if you're including me above. I fact I'm not sure if anyone was an unqualified Trapologist. I personally always fight the tendency to say the manager is crap because that's usually the first claim of the ignorant and uninformed.

I always had serious concerns about our tendency to sit back when ahead, persisting with 442 and I thought the clean sheet run was grossly misleading. I refused to criticise Slovakia away because we played well enough to win. I wavered between 60 & 70% in favour of Trap and his methods while they were working. I'm glad we had him away in Macedonia unlike more popular managers. I think lots of people thought like that.

Despite my criticism of Trap now I think there were various unfair accusations thrown at him over the years or certainly situations where he deserved the benefit of the doubt and in those situations I defended him. I'd love if Marc Wilson had 10 caps by now but can anyone catergorically say it's Trap's fault he doesn't?

Even after Poland there seems to be quite a high degree of qualified support for Trap.

Hey, where Dr_peepee these days? C'mon Doc - we want to hear what you have to say.

* Weren't all 3 opponents number 1 seeds in qualifying, or were Croatia a high number 2 in Greece's group? Were we the only no. 3 seed to actually qualify (Czechs?)?

[Not Brazil]

What was the sectarian stuff being sung? And can you be sure it was only northerners?

I watched all 3 of the South's games - I certainly didn't hear anything sectarian at the games.

There does, however, appear to be a problem amongst a minority of your support (in particular Nordies) away from the match - add ons to "The Fields", for example, whereby some of your fans seem to want to have sexual intercourse with Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth and to express their support for a terrorist organisation that slaughtered ad maimed thousands of Irish men women and children - quite an irony that the FAI saw fit to remember the victims of a cowardly, murderous, sectarian attack by vermin involved in a terrorist gang but yet some of your fans see fit to glorify equally repulsive terrorists of a different hue.

The Belfast Newsletter carried front page headlines of the antics of some of your sectarian Nordie fans who thought it great craic to have their sectarianism exposed on You Tube.

[BonnieShels]

I watched all 3 of the South's games - I certainly didn't hear anything sectarian at the games.

There does, however, appear to be a problem amongst a minority of your support (in particular Nordies) away from the match - add ons to "The Fields", for example, whereby some of your fans seem to want to have sexual intercourse with Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth and to express their support for a terrorist organisation that slaughtered ad maimed thousands of Irish men women and children - quite an irony that the FAI saw fit to remember the victims of a cowardly, murderous, sectarian attack by vermin involved in a terrorist gang but yet some of your fans see fit to glorify equally repulsive terrorists of a different hue.

The Belfast Newsletter carried front page headlines of the antics of some of your sectarian Nordie fans who thought it great craic to have their sectarianism exposed on You Tube.

Fair play to the Newsletter. Quality journalism as always.

The FAI can't legislate for idiots. I have never sang the inexorable dirge that is the TFOA as a result of the addenda.
But if people choose to what can the rest do?
I have noticed that there is a different attitude these days and there is a noticeable reduction of the amount who sing SF and IRA within.

[tetsujin1979]

* Weren't all 3 opponents number 1 seeds in qualifying, or were Croatia a high number 2 in Greece's group? Were we the only no. 3 seed to actually qualify (Czechs?)?
yep, all three were top seeds in qualifying, and we were the only 3rd seed to qualify
Second seeds that didn't qualify were Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Slovakia and Romania.

all here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying#Seedings

[Stuttgart88]

I always bemoaned the disappearance of the Molly Malone chorus at both the football and rugby. There was some inserting of add-ons into TFOA but not widespread and I think the long bit at the end of the Spain game didn't have any. Not 100% sure but that's what I thought.

[tricky_colour]

yep, all three were top seeds in qualifying, and we were the only 3rd seed to qualify
Second seeds that didn't qualify were Switzerland, Serbia, Turkey, Slovakia and Romania.

all here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying#Seedings

Also I believe we drew the top seed in each pot and as there were 4 groups the chance of that
happening are 4x4x4=64-1

Also as the event happens once in 4 years we shold not expect this to happen again 256 years!!! (provided we qualify).

Not sure how often we have qualified but at a rough estimate we should not expect it to happen again for about 1000 years!!!!

( which is just as well).

[ArdeeBhoy]

I watched all 3 of the South's games
South Korea were playing?


There does, however, appear to be a problem amongst a minority of your support (in particular Nordies) away from the match - add ons to "The Fields", for example, whereby some of your fans seem to want to have sexual intercourse with Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth and to express their support for a terrorist organisation that slaughtered ad maimed thousands of Irish men women and children - quite an irony that the FAI saw fit to remember the victims of a cowardly, murderous, sectarian attack by vermin involved in a terrorist gang but yet some of your fans see fit to glorify equally repulsive terrorists of a different hue.

The Belfast Newsletter carried front page headlines of the antics of some of your sectarian Nordie fans who thought it great craic to have their sectarianism exposed on You Tube.

Yawn.

Whereas no fans of the North did likewise in February or has ever done at any of your other games?
:rolleyes:

And their 'own' army has of course always acted in an exemplary manner, both in Ireland and beyond...
Yeah, right.

[peadar1987]

Yawn.

Whereas no fans of the North did likewise in February or has ever done at any of your other games?
:rolleyes:

And their 'own' army has of course always acted in an exemplary manner, both in Ireland and beyond...
Yeah, right.

"They do it too" isn't really an excuse for blatant ****tery from our fans. Yeah, plenty of Norn Iron fans are sectarian, but plenty of Italian fans are racist, doesn't mean that the decent Italian fans can't condemn racism from Spanish or Polish supporters.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except I didn't say they can't...
:rolleyes:

[bennocelt]

Any actual evidence of this sectarian chanting that the Irish fans got upto in Poland?

[Not Brazil]

Any actual evidence of this sectarian chanting that the Irish fans got upto in Poland?

There was plenty of evidence on You Tube.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/republic-fans-in-sectarian-storm-1-3936727

[ArdeeBhoy]

That article (and the related comments) are laughable...

Thanks for cheering us up.

[bennocelt]

There was plenty of evidence on You Tube.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/republic-fans-in-sectarian-storm-1-3936727


That doesnt show any examples of sectarianism, or a youtube link (or did I miss it?).
Are our northern neighbours a bit jealous perhaps? 3 fans arrested out of 25,000!! (for vandalism)

[DannyInvincible]

That article is indeed laughable.


Danny Kennedy and Gregory Campbell were speaking after video footage appeared on the YouTube website showing supporters in the Republic’s colours singing “IRA” and “**** the Queen” on the streets of Krakow.

Newry and Armagh UUP MLA Mr Kennedy said there is no place in sport for sectarianism but feels the latest incident has received little or no media attention — unlike the press onslaught faced by Northern Ireland fans following an incident in Dublin last year.

In the video, six fans are initially involved but then meet up with around 30 others outside a bar who join in.

The supporters can be clearly heard singing the offensive lyrics during a rendition of the Fields of Athenry.

I'm assuming this is the clip of the "sectarian storm" under scrutiny:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq6EEUZevZw&feature=player_embedded

It's a segment from this longer one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdECNA9S8RU&feature=related

What is noticeable is that the only people who chant "IRA" (is that indicative of sectarianism anyway?) when the two groups converge are those from the original six-man group. Rather than continuing with 'The Fields of Athenry', the crowd then launches into a rendition of "COYBIG", some of them possibly uneasy with hearing IRA chants.


“Unfortunately this has happened before,” [Gregory Campbell] said.

“There have been incidents at international matches in Dublin when the visiting teams have featured players from Glasgow Rangers who were constantly booed when they touched the ball.

For a sec, I thought he was going to refer in condemnatory fashion to another incident that occurred in Dublin in February of last year.


“On most occasions when these sort of things happen it isn’t a majority of fans engaged in it, but that is equally true when it was Northern Ireland fans so it should be condemned by all sports fans.”

Oh, here we are... I see; so, his actual motive is bitterness at the previous public/media treatment of sectarian chanting by NI fans? Did Campbell publicly condemning that incident in Lansdowne Road last year? I didn't hear a whimper.


Speaking last night, Mr Kennedy said: “At a time when European football is under particular scrutiny for racism, I think many will view this type of behaviour as equating to that."

Racist? :confused:


One fan said: “If this had been Northern Ireland fans it would’ve been all over the news.”

But it is in the news...


The video was posted on the internet four days ago and since then three Irish fans have been arrested in Pozan where the Republic played their opening match against Croatia last night.

On terrorism charges, I suppose? :rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, without condoning a few hotheads, once again "Double Standards'R'Us"...

[boovidge]

HAHAHA 3 out of how many thousand? I heard one of the arrests was a fella that got so drunk he soiled himself. Pity there wasn't a copy of the Newsletter lying around so he could clean himself up before the coppers noticed.

[Not Brazil]

Post #92 is very telling.

[DannyInvincible]

O'Shea's Boot didn't elaborate on the content of the chanting. I'd be interested in knowing what he heard.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Heh, if that's the best the detractors can do.

Anyway, posted by Aido P in another thread...


"Looks like the Polish are trying to get a friendly between Poland and Ireland for some time later this year:

http://www.poland-ireland.com/

A Polish colleague of mine who lives in Poznan wrote an email containing this text this morning:

Anyway - feedback in local newspapers after Irish fans stay is very positive in most than 90% of population.
What I read , Poznań council town considers to establish partnerships with some Irish city , and Polish fans would like to organize something in Poznań with participation of Irish . eg friendly football match , etc.
Whole Poland says that the atmosphere you showed should be a practical lesson for other nations to enjoy such events with fun.

Once again thank you for your contribution to the society :-)

I'm sure everybody else who went there has had a similar response from Polish people they know so it's all good."

[Not Brazil]

Some of you lads obviously think that sectarian chanting and loutish behaviour is "laughable".

That's quite sad really.

[DannyInvincible]

Some of you lads obviously think that sectarian chanting and loutish behaviour is "laughable".

That's quite sad really.

What gave you that impression?

[Bungle]

Some of you lads obviously think that sectarian chanting and loutish behaviour is "laughable".

That's quite sad really.

Singing the FOA is not sectarian. It is a ballad song that for me is beautiful. However, when some of our fans chant IRA at the end of its verse it is. My ancestors were in the IRA but I absolutely despise the modern IRA. I hang my head in shame when that part is sung. The vast vast majority of Irish fans do not join in with this chorus, but there are pockets that do.

[ArdeeBhoy]

People in their glass houses. You have to love them.

[DannyInvincible]

However, when some of our fans chant IRA at the end of its verse it is.

Is it? Were your ancestors sectarian?


My ancestors were in the IRA but I absolutely despise the modern IRA.

Which one would that be and how do you distinguish between the activities of the "modern" and the "old" of which your ancestors were members?


I hang my head in shame when that part is sung. The vast vast majority of Irish fans do not join in with this chorus, but there are pockets that do.

Whilst this is true, and it might be unsavoury for many, is it strictly indicative of sectarianism?

[BonnieShels]

I find it insulting that intelligent members of this forum have continued to defend Irish fans in Poland from the tripe in the Newsletter and from Kennedy et al. That I responded at all initially rankles.

We have nothing to defend. We were exemplary. We always are. That's it.

Leave the little begrudging tossers to it. Sure what else will they talk about?

[ArdeeBhoy]

BS,
Except they may see your comments as 'laughable'...
:rolleyes:

[BonnieShels]

But the difference is I don't care and do not feel the need to "take people with me".

Basing an article on YouTube footage alone is worthy of a flogging.

This stuff should just be binned.

[boovidge]

there are pockets that do.

I wouldn't even say it was pockets it's such a small minority. More like a few isolated muppets. Everyone around me was singing FOA and I didn't hear one "IRA" add-on. I've also never heard any sectarian or pro-IRA chants at any game I've been to at Lansdowne/Croker in the past five or so years I've been a regular. The fact that a few years ago some Rangers players were booed (embarassing as it is) is not evidence of widespread sectarianism within the Irish support. Sorry to disappoint the bitter NI polticians and fans.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agreed.

Anyway for proper feedback, see what the Poles (& Spanish, Croats and Italians) said rather than the usual twisted (& hypocritical) begrudgers.

The fact that the former want a friendly game v.us, probably based on our monetary/drinking input, should be credit enough?

[sullanefc]

Huge mountain being made out of a molehill here by some idiot politician. Six drunken guys singing about IRA and f*ck the queen? Offensive to Royalists? Yes. Sectarian? No. It has become part of Irish psyche to display contempt for our british overlords of 800 years, a lot of it is said in jokingly and a bit like a peacock showing its feathers, but to claim that these guys were sectarian would be a bit of a stretch. Bigotry is always tricky territory and the line is very blurry, but I would be 95% confident that if these six fans were in a bar with england or NI fans, then they would more than likely have a pint with them and enjoy some banter.

I'm reminded of CCFC games versus Derry City, when there will be chants of "What's it like to have a queen" and "You're brits and you know you are" etc, but everytime the Derry fans will drink with City fans before and after the game, and will still have the craic with each other.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm reminded of CCFC games versus Derry City, when there will be chants of "What's it like to have a queen"

But don't yous have Donal Óg Cusack?

[sullanefc]

But don't yous have Donal Óg Cusack?

:D That's an "n" at the end of queen, not an "r". :D

Edit: Looking forward to giving you boys a hammering tonight when "what's it like to have a queer queen" will get an airing I'm sure. :D

[Not Brazil]

Six drunken guys singing about IRA and f*ck the queen? Offensive to Royalists? Yes. Sectarian? No.

Deary me.

Sad.