Polkraine;Racism?

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01jk4vr

[jbyrne]

sure the english are never happy with who gets awarded these tournaments. always some gripe or another.
their fans ran riot in the early 90s yet got awarded euro 96. people in glass houses and all that

[paul_oshea]

I heard oxlade-chamberlains family and walcott wont go because of a fear of racism. They could just move John Terry to a different hotel.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good line Paul, if wholly unoriginal.

However the racism/fascism in Ukraine/Polska and Eastern Germany can't be ignored and makes our friends from across the channel currently look small beer by comparison.
Sol Campbell has hopefully overstated it but we should all pray it won't be a problem either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z93iQgI3_Iw&feature=youtu.be

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.facebook.com/farenetwork

[boovidge]

Good line Paul, if wholly unoriginal.

However the racism/fascism in Ukraine/Polska and Eastern Germany can't be ignored and makes our friends from across the channel currently look small beer by comparison.
Sol Campbell has hopefully overstated it but we should all pray it won't be a problem either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z93iQgI3_Iw&feature=youtu.be

If you're referring to England, then surely no country has done more than them to stamp out racism from football. There is no major fascist party in Britain, the BNP have been all but wiped out at local level and will hopefully lose their two European seats (won because of a fall in turnout). England is also one of the most cosmopolitan and multicultural countries in the world, so any comparison with the likes of Poland and Ukraine, where white power and nazi signs are commonplace and mass ranks of fans perform Hitler salutes seems like petty Anglophobia to me.

[Dodge]

so any comparison with the likes of Poland and Ukraine, where white power and nazi signs are commonplace and mass ranks of fans perform Hitler salutes seems like petty Anglophobia to me.

I've been to Poland and Ukraine. White Power and Nzi signs are absolutely NOT commonplace. A Polish TV crowd could easily show footage of last year's London riots and find plenty of BNP graffiti in bradford etc and paint the UK in a horrible light.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I'm clearly not saying the UK is worse (or even close to...) , I'm just saying the documentary last night was shockingly tabloid.

[cornflakes]

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/english-tackle-racism-surrounding-euro-2012-annie-eaves

[ArdeeBhoy]

If you're referring to England, then surely no country has done more than them to stamp out racism from football. There is no major fascist party in Britain, the BNP have been all but wiped out at local level and will hopefully lose their two European seats (won because of a fall in turnout). England is also one of the most cosmopolitan and multicultural countries in the world, so any comparison with the likes of Poland and Ukraine, where white power and nazi signs are commonplace and mass ranks of fans perform Hitler salutes seems like petty Anglophobia to me.

Agreed mainly, but the likes of EDL & Britain First, plus Casuals United all have very unsavoury characters within their ranks. Unsure if murderers exactly, but holocaust deniers and the the like.


I've been to Poland and Ukraine. White Power and Nzi signs are absolutely NOT commonplace. A Polish TV crowd could easily show footage of last year's London riots and find plenty of BNP graffiti in bradford etc and paint the UK in a horrible light.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I'm clearly not saying the UK is worse (or even close to...) , I'm just saying the documentary last night was shockingly tabloid.
Agreed the documentary was a bit sensationalist but have also been to Poland and one of the first people we encountered socially was a local clown wearing a 'KKK' sweatshirt.

Unsure how widespread a problem this is but unless you're non-white, how would you ever know...
:rolleyes:

[boovidge]

I've been to Poland and Ukraine. White Power and Nzi signs are absolutely NOT commonplace. A Polish TV crowd could easily show footage of last year's London riots and find plenty of BNP graffiti in bradford etc and paint the UK in a horrible light.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I'm clearly not saying the UK is worse (or even close to...) , I'm just saying the documentary last night was shockingly tabloid.

Definitely agree that it was sensationalist, but you cant fake what happened to those Asian kids or the thousands performing Nazi salutes at the grounds. I'm sure someone could make a documentary that paints the UK as a racist hellhole, but specifically when it comes to football, I don't think you could travel round a number of top level football grounds and be able to film some of the disgusting stuff the BBC was able to in Ukraine.

I've been to Poland too but only to fairly tourist friendly areas in Krakow so unfortunately I can't say what it's like in the real Poland. Absolutely loved what I saw though.

[paul_oshea]

It was definitely sensationalist, but as you say, that was two of the bigger clubs in Ukraine and no one went to stop it not even the stewards. You wouldn't see the same in a top level club in England, you might see it on the streets of bradford or east london or wherever but not in the football grounds.

[Dodge]

the thousands performing Nazi salutes at the grounds

Wasn't saying it was faked, was saying its not common place. We played Lviv last year. No sign of it. heavy, heavy police presence around us but most fans more interested in swapping scarfs etc.

[bennocelt]

If you're referring to England, then surely no country has done more than them to stamp out racism from football. There is no major fascist party in Britain, the BNP have been all but wiped out at local level and will hopefully lose their two European seats (won because of a fall in turnout). England is also one of the most cosmopolitan and multicultural countries in the world, so any comparison with the likes of Poland and Ukraine, where white power and nazi signs are commonplace and mass ranks of fans perform Hitler salutes seems like petty Anglophobia to me.

The rise of the EDL and others (English democrats) is a bit alarming though all the same???? Not that long ago nail bombs were going off in Soho

[boovidge]

Depends what you mean by "rise" though doesn't it? The EDL are worrying but are really a fringe anti-islamic group and their "members" spend most of its time drinking lager and singing football chants. Their marches are usually outnumbered by police and left wing students. The English Democrats are an incredibly minor party that wants above all else, a seperate English Parliament. Hardly the anti-democratic stuff of your average fascist. No doubt there's some unsavoury former BNP characters lurking around, but they position themselves as a standard right wing populist party. And they also have no support. Compare that to the recent French elections where a far right candidate won nearly a fifth of the popular vote. Far right politics in Britain is in a very bad way.

[mypost]

sure the english are never happy with who gets awarded these tournaments. always some gripe or another.
their fans ran riot in the early 90s yet got awarded euro 96. people in glass houses and all that

Wonder will the BBC run a show on how racist the French are in 4 years time, showing years old footage of race riots as evidence? Will they feature footage of Marseille-PSG crowds and how they beat ten lumps out of each other twice a year?

But that's only France isn't it?

[ArdeeBhoy]

But do the French use football as a vehicle for right-wing politics, beyond some of PSG's more notorious fans?

The Poles and Ukrainians seem to, as do the national fans of Serbia and Croatia. Not to mention club football right across countries from all the former Soviet 'Bloc' as well as certain notorious clubs from England & Scotland eastwards...

[bennocelt]

Depends what you mean by "rise" though doesn't it? The EDL are worrying but are really a fringe anti-islamic group and their "members" spend most of its time drinking lager and singing football chants. Their marches are usually outnumbered by police and left wing students. The English Democrats are an incredibly minor party that wants above all else, a seperate English Parliament. Hardly the anti-democratic stuff of your average fascist. No doubt there's some unsavoury former BNP characters lurking around, but they position themselves as a standard right wing populist party. And they also have no support. Compare that to the recent French elections where a far right candidate won nearly a fifth of the popular vote. Far right politics in Britain is in a very bad way.

Yeah yeah anyway EDL thugs on the streets of London - irish people are ok then???? You dont live in the same Englad then li live in.... ("**** off back to ireland") yeah the english are sweet hearts

[boovidge]

Yeah yeah anyway EDL thugs on the streets of London - irish people are ok then???? You dont live in the same Englad then li live in.... ("**** off back to ireland") yeah the english are sweet hearts

Look, my original point was that i felt it was unfair on English football and society for it to be used as some sort of yardstick for worldwide levels of racism. ie "they're EVEN MORE racist than the English!". I think it's pretty hard to deny that the English game has made great strides in terms of hooliganism and racism in the last twenty years or so and also it's true that England is one of the most cosmopolitan places in the world. I wasn't trying to deny that there are problems in England. There is scum everywhere in the world. But the two groups you mentioned sort of prove my point. One isn't even a far right party by strict definition and the other is a loose association of pathetic lager louts (led by a 2nd gen Irish fella!). Who do you think gets a harder time in 2012, an Irish guy in London or a black African in Kiev?

[Crosby87]

Some Ukranians told me this joke:
Chinese fella is having trouble reading so he goes to the eye doctor. Eye doctor looks him over and does some tests. Calls Chinese Fella the next day and says I found out whats wrong with you...you have a cataract. Chinese fella says no I don't, I have a Rincoln Contirental.

[bennocelt]

Look, my original point was that i felt it was unfair on English football and society for it to be used as some sort of yardstick for worldwide levels of racism. ie "they're EVEN MORE racist than the English!". I think it's pretty hard to deny that the English game has made great strides in terms of hooliganism and racism in the last twenty years or so and also it's true that England is one of the most cosmopolitan places in the world. I wasn't trying to deny that there are problems in England. There is scum everywhere in the world. But the two groups you mentioned sort of prove my point. One isn't even a far right party by strict definition and the other is a loose association of pathetic lager louts (led by a 2nd gen Irish fella!). Who do you think gets a harder time in 2012, an Irish guy in London or a black African in Kiev?

sorry drunken rant at 1.30 is never good, apologies:D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair play bennoc, find myself agreeing with boovidge here.

Crosby, if that's the best they can do, you need to find more Ukrainians...
:rolleyes:

[Crosby87]

Arthur, what if it works to our advantage? Balotelli is obviously waiting to implode, already saying he will walk off. What if it happens in a crucial Match 3 VS Ireland? And he goes all crazy ala head butt in the World Cup? And we benefit from the whole ordeal b/c he hears some native fans saying whatever? Would you urge the Irish team to walk off as well?

[bennocelt]

Look, my original point was that i felt it was unfair on English football and society for it to be used as some sort of yardstick for worldwide levels of racism. ie "they're EVEN MORE racist than the English!". I think it's pretty hard to deny that the English game has made great strides in terms of hooliganism and racism in the last twenty years or so and also it's true that England is one of the most cosmopolitan places in the world. I wasn't trying to deny that there are problems in England. There is scum everywhere in the world. But the two groups you mentioned sort of prove my point. One isn't even a far right party by strict definition and the other is a loose association of pathetic lager louts (led by a 2nd gen Irish fella!). Who do you think gets a harder time in 2012, an Irish guy in London or a black African in Kiev?


Just forgot to add - you might not know it but there was a young Irish guy stabbed to death last week in North London and his fathers throat cut in a racist attack (but black on white seems to be less well reported in the media!)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/556724_10151161916313452_68969193451_13436274_9947 69153_n.jpg

[Mr A]

I spent a couple of summers living in London and witnessed some shocking racism. And the majority of it was between blacks and Asians or indeed within the black and Asian communities. I did work with one guy who was a BNP sympathiser but to be honest anything he said paled into insignificance compared to the stuff within or between the minority communities. Didn't witness any significant anti-Irish stuff to be honest, more generally anti-white stuff. But hey, that's life. There are people like that pretty much everywhere.

Straying back on-topic.. there are risks anywhere you go. Hopefully if the Irish fans stick together and keep the wits about us (could happen) and we'll be fine. There may be problems there, but for the duration of the tournament at least they're likely to be suppressed.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting piece on this issue: http://backpagefootball.com/opinion/euro-2012-racism-fears-unfounded/

[mypost]

But do the French use football as a vehicle for right-wing politics, beyond some of PSG's more notorious fans?

I don't know, don't care, and tbh I don't think it makes any difference.

The point still stands. You can show half an hour of extreme disorder in or out of a football ground and carefully edit, package, and market it to make it look the norm.

Last year saw some of the most vicious riots the UK has seen in decades. It was racially motivated, however the Brits/BBC would be outraged if another country started going over there to make documentaries warning people to stay away from the Olympics this summer. And rightly so.

They think they can take the moral high ground over racism, but they're just as responsible for it as anywhere else.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Arthur, what if it works to our advantage? Balotelli is obviously waiting to implode, already saying he will walk off. What if it happens in a crucial Match 3 VS Ireland? And he goes all crazy ala head butt in the World Cup? And we benefit from the whole ordeal b/c he hears some native fans saying whatever? Would you urge the Irish team to walk off as well?

Yes, if it was racism, based on colour.
Have you not noticed Stephen Kelly? Or do you not recall Messrs. Hughton, Fleming, McGrath, Phelan, Babb, Morrison etc.


Straying back on-topic.. there are risks anywhere you go. Hopefully if the Irish fans stick together and keep the wits about us (could happen) and we'll be fine. There may be problems there, but for the duration of the tournament at least they're likely to be suppressed.

Years ago maybe, but my recent experience is there are too many gobby types in our support these days, if Tallinn was anything to go by and witnessed borderline racist behaviour there.
A tiny minority but enough to take the edge off enjoyment of the experience.

And can't see them 'sticking' with anyone?


I don't know, don't care, and tbh I don't think it makes any difference.

Well maybe you should....Apathy towards racism is almost deplorable as committing it in my book.

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/02/euro-2012-antisemitic-football

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/football/euro-2012-poland-and-ukraine-a-hotbed-of-hate-1-2335939

[Doire Abu]

ffs.....how can these sort of idiots get elected.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/02/euro-2012-england-zones-fans

Jan Tomaszewski, a former Polish goalkeeper, said last August he was ashamed of the current Polish team which was made up of players who were not "true Poles". Tomaszewski, now an MP for the rightwing Law and Justice party, said: "This hotchpotch lacks only a cannibal from Africa, who once ate a Polish missionary. This is not a Polish team. There are Colombian and German stray dogs."

[ArdeeBhoy]

Eejit!

[DannyInvincible]

Things haven't gotten off to a great start with black players in the Dutch camp being subjected to monkey chants during a training session open to the public earlier: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/07/euro-2012-holland-racist-abuse?CMP=twt_gu


The problems occurred as the players began the session by jogging a lap of the pitch only to be greeted at one end of the stadium with monkey noises and loud jeers. On the second circuit, they were even louder and it was then the players decided not to go around again. "At least now we know what we can encounter," the Holland coach, Bert van Marwijk, said with heavy cynicism. "Very atmospheric."

Uefa subsequently tried to deny that it was racially motivated, saying they had checked with the Dutch squad and had been told it was not thought to be of that nature. Instead, the official line is that a small part of the crowd was protesting about the fact that Krakow had not been made one of the host cities. Another theory that has been put forward is that Wisla's supporters did not want their stadium being used by anyone but their own club and were simply booing the Dutch players.

Van Bommel, however, responded angrily when it was put to him not everyone had heard monkey noises. "You need to open your ears," he said. "If you did hear it, and don't want to hear it, that is even worse."

Privately, the midfielder is understood to be unhappy that the authorities are not treating the issue more seriously, but the incident is still threatening to be a major embarrassment for Uefa, coming before a ball has even been kicked, and will increase the scrutiny on Poland's supporters when the tournament opens with the co-hosts playing Greece in Warsaw on Friday.

The Polish authorities have been eager to dispel the sense that the backdrop to this tournament will have racism at its centre, and the country's prime minister, Donald Tusk, went through an elaborate public relations exercise on Thursday to drive home the point. Tusk was accompanied by a television crew on a 90-mile journey to Lodz to dine with Poland's first black parliamentarian, John Godson, and his family, including relatives who had flown in from Nigeria. The idea was to show the improvements both in Poland's road network and acceptance of different races.

Godson criticised the BBC Panorama documentary Euro 2012: Stadiums of Hate that had warned racism would be rife. He argued that Poland was a "hospitable and tolerant country" while Tusk wore a badge that said "Welcome" and said he was convinced there would be no problems: "I very warmly invite all English people. You will definitely not encounter anything unpleasant here."

Panorama had focused on the racist elements in the support of Krakow's two major clubs, Wisla and Cracovia, as well as highlighting the seriousness of the problem in Ukraine. Michel Platini, the Uefa president, has subsequently said the referees have been empowered to take teams off the pitch if there are serious issues – but added that any player who walked off without permission would be booked.

[Crosby87]

Yeah, even deadspin is picking up on it.
http://deadspin.com/5916739/it-took-negative-one-day-for-euro-2012-fans-to-start-their-racist-chants

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good on vB. Let's hope Dutch players are now more collectively 'politically correct' though my Dinamo Berlin pal tells me it's a big problem in the old DDR...


As he jokily says, Russian c**** taught them this...

[Crosby87]

One more, even CNN US picking up on it. (and they are usually ass backwards on everything.)
Long article.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/07/racism-rather-than-ronaldo-and-ribery-dominates-euro-2012-storylines/?hpt=hp_c2

[ArdeeBhoy]

As DI says all over The Guardian, but they'll probably be smacked down as 'do gooders'?

[DannyInvincible]

UEFA have confirmed there were "isolated incidents of racist chanting": http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18363736

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/08/euro-2012-racism-holland?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

[bennocelt]

Bit of fisticuffs at game last night- less reported is all the USSR style extreme Soviet nationalist emblems that a lot of Russians appear to enjoy waving around in Poland. Having lived in Poland I know how much they hate the communists (over the nazis)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaP9RenZ0gw