Euro 2012 Squad Discussion

[Charlie Darwin]

Hoolahan and Wilson have roughly 15 minutes combined international experience between them.

[SkStu]

I get what you're saying about Clark's versatility, but I think he would be worse than Green in a Trap 442. Can play in a five midfield, but would get the run around as part of a central pairing. Doesn't have the pace or positioning. Just my feeling.

Having said that I'd probably have him in the squad ahead of McShane. How and ever...

i just cant get past the fact that a player with no club is ahead of a premiership regular...

edit: and also that Green is really crap.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not to defend Green, but he is a better midfielder than Clark and is without a club by virtue of having refused a contract offer.

[Yard of Pace]

Would John O'Shea not be a better option at midfield than Green? He was good enough against France that time, iirc....?

[SkStu]

Not to defend Green?! hehe!

I honestly dont agree that he is better than Clark going on what i have seen of Green with Ireland and Clark with Aston Villa and Ireland. But hey, we all see the game differently. Green is not the future, Clark more so.

[Charlie Darwin]

Clark is a good player but is still very indisciplined, which is fairly useless trait for an Irish midfielder. He's quite clearly a centre half. Green is limited but he does his job.

[Irish_Praha]

Well hopefully Green won't need to get any game time anyway. Unless we are one nil up against whoever with 10 mins to go and we need somene to do some harrying in the centre of the park. :p

[nigel-harps1954]

I would have preferred placing a massive boulder in the middle of the field rather than starting Green.

[DannyInvincible]

Not to defend Green, but he is a better midfielder than Clark and is without a club by virtue of having refused a contract offer.

That very much sounds like a defence of Green. Tut tut!

[backstothewall]

Would John O'Shea not be a better option at midfield than Green? He was good enough against France that time, iirc....?

So what are you saying? Trap should have drafted in McShane instead of Green.

The footballing equivalent of Sophie's Choice

[Crosby87]

Kevin Kline is so annoying in that movie.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The facts are Green and McShane are even worse than Kilbane/Ward. Says it all really.

Please to a higher power, we don't need either of these donkeys...

[Charlie Darwin]

Wow, Trap is a ruthless MF: "Kevin has been recovering well, I have made the difficult decision after completing fitness tests on O’Shea and McShane." It seems McShane has made the squad due to his ability to cover centre half as well as right full.

[shakermaker1982]

Is Paul Green really that bad? I remember him doing ok against Argentina.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That was then, this is now.

[cornflakes]

That was then, this is now.

When is the last time you seen him play?

[ArdeeBhoy]

On the BBC this season. You?

[shakermaker1982]

He's not great on the ball but he's mobile. He likes to get stuck in and Whelan/Andrews/Gibson hardly set the world on fire in a green shirt. I don't think he's that bad

McShane on the other hand is a walking time bomb. He didn't detonate on Saturday (did ok to be fair but Bosnia didn't really attack down the left) but he'd leave me a nervous wreck if we need to start him in any of the group games.

[cornflakes]

On the BBC this season. You?

Same, he's not as bad as people are making out. He probably won't even play. I agree with Shakermaker I'd be more worried if McShane has to play

[Stuttgart88]

Green did Ok in his early games and is still paying the price for a poor performance at home to Russia where he wasn't alone. Given that McCarthy and Fahey aren't available I'm OK with his inclusion.

I haven't seen the announcement that McShane is in ahead of Foley but that's what I'm assuming based on the comments above. It seems we have injury worries in the CB department so it makes sense to have CB cover in there. Foley has been neither here nor there for us really so his absence is neither here nor there. Good luck to both McShane and Green. We're all bloody great from our armchairs and it's no great science to say that they're not our strongest options but they're there now and not necessarily at the expense of anyone available and notably better.

They're both strong characters and a squad needs that.

[SwanVsDalton]

They're both strong characters and a squad needs that.

Agree, particularly with McShane. Not to say Foley, who's very unlucky, doesn't have the same attributes, but McShane appears to be a very strong, committed character off-the-field. Tourney travelling parties always need guys like that, the guys who are not in line for much game time but are not afraid to speak their mind and keep everyone else positive.

[the bear]

its been a downhill spiral for Mcshane since his appearance as Blanka in Street Fighter 2, I was impressed with Foley with his form for Wolves particularily in the season before last. He's not realy taken his chances at international level so was never certain to make it. Cruel way to miss out all the same though.

Just can't relax when Mcshane is on the pitch, no matter how well hes doing we know from experience a ridiculous blooper could be just around the corner.

[the bear]

I would have preferred placing a massive boulder in the middle of the field rather than starting Green.

dont see the benefit in playing Richard Dunne centre mid, we need him at the back

[French Toasht]

its been a downhill spiral for Mcshane since his appearance as Blanka in Street Fighter 2, I was impressed with Foley with his form for Wolves particularily in the season before last. He's not realy taken his chances at international level so was never certain to make it. Cruel way to miss out all the same though.

Just can't relax when Mcshane is on the pitch, no matter how well hes doing we know from experience a ridiculous blooper could be just around the corner.

Newstalks Ken Early reckons McShane is likely to start against Croatia, as he just doesn't buy the story that everything will be OK with John O'Shea.

The nail biting has started earlier than anticipated.

[the bear]

Newstalks Ken Early reckons McShane is likely to start against Croatia, as he just doesn't buy the story that everything will be OK with John O'Shea.

The nail biting has started earlier than anticipated.

surely Kelly is next in line if Oshea misses out??

[Philly]

This McShane business is getting me down. 1 league game for Hull and 11 for a struggling Palace side in a whole season shouldn't earn you a place in the Irish squad over the likes of Foley. I know McShane can play CB but Kelly is just as good as him there for backup to be honest. Hard luck to Foley. I hope if Paul gets a game he proves me and all the other doubters wrong. I love Trap but sometimes I just don't get it!

[paul_oshea]

if mcshane starts against Croatia I might just cry.

I blame him for Paris and its just a matter of time before he gives away a penalty.

what I really don't like about him is his inability to accept criticism constructive or not.he acts like he does nothing wrong slightly arrogant almost.why do you find that with people who are crap or make mistakes they can't accept responsibility?perhaps Its a (well versed and used) defense mechanism.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd never have described him as arrogant. He doesn't accept criticism from the media or random fans, and rightly so because most of it is ridiculous. He takes criticism from Trapattoni, as he should.

[paul_oshea]

what are you on about?how do you know he takes criticism from trap?because he is still in the group?well he would have to wouldn't he?

will explain tomorrow What I mean by arrogant but its a form of denial and shirking.

he ddint take keanes constructive criticism too well either when keane and many other pundits were clearly right.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'd be interesting in knowing just how likely Foley's inclusion in the squad was indicated to be, to Foley himself. While I recognise that this change makes tactical sense, something about the way it has come about leaves me feeling a little preturbed.

[French Toasht]

The boys on Newstalk also said Trap has suggested that if we beat Croatia, then Green will start against Spain. Had always felt the gameplan was to try and scrape a draw against Spain, but I really don't see how including Green, will do anything in furtherance of that objective.

[gastric]

Foley feels betrayed and rightly so. This can't help morale within the camp. We are good at creating drama before we play in major competitions.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0530/1224316915893.html

[NeverFeltBetter]

Reading that article, I know Foley is saying he should have been given more time to train and he was under the "illusion" that he had a place in the squad, but this decision doesn't really seem to have anything to do with his fitness, or him at all really, just what a different part of the squad needs in terms of depth.

That being said, I would be worried if the management team was possibly misleading a player into thinking he had a greater chance of going to Poland then he really did. The injury concerns of the defence are not a new development.

[SkStu]

That's so disappointing to read. It's constant stuff like this that has me questioning Trap - the miscommunication is apparent every step of the way. We can joke about it when we like but this is where the joking comes back to haunt us. If Foley feels betrayed and/or lied to then I'm inclined to believe that he has good reason for feeling that way and it's just not good enough from Trap and the management team.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Well, it's easy to speak rashly (or be misquoted) so soon after being told such bad news. I'm sure more details will emerge at some point, when tempers have cooled.

[French Toasht]

Irish Times highlighting tensions and upset in the camp on the eve of a major tournament. That didn't end badly at all last time.

[geysir]

I'd never have described him as arrogant. He doesn't accept criticism from the media or random fans, and rightly so because most of it is ridiculous. He takes criticism from Trapattoni, as he should.

Quite so, anytime I've heard him speak or quoted he sounds dead on. His personality is not an issue and it's ridiculous to be profiling him based on wild assumptions.

[French Toasht]

I'd never have described him as arrogant. He doesn't accept criticism from the media or random fans, and rightly so because most of it is ridiculous. He takes criticism from Trapattoni, as he should.

Well in an interview with Eoin McDevitt he came across as particularly indignant when the infamous 7-1 defeat against Everton was raised, and the suggestion that he was culpable for the leaking the vast majority of the goals that day. Maybe its blind faith in his own capabilities, which is not necessarily a bad thing because I'm pretty sure if he paid heed to half the stuff written about him in the media, he would have packed the game in by now. I wouldn't call him arrogant, I'd say thick skinned is probably a better summation of his character.

[Kingdom]

I feel very sorry for Kevin, and not just based on this, but for the guts of 5 years now he's not been given much of a break. He's not a kid either. (I'm biased - I do not like McShane, I don't think he's a good player, and think he's more of a liability than any of our other options in defence. Like POS, I blame him for Paris as much as that tinker Henry.)

We've Dunne, St Ledger, O'Dea and O'Shea as it is that can cover Centre Back. If any of them are gone, Kelly can give additional cover, and to be blunt I'd much prefer to move Kelly inside and play Foley at right back, than bring in McShane. And I hate making two changes where 1 will do. Versatility in a squad is a brilliant comodity, but to a point. If we've that many concerns about our front-line defenders, then bring in a proper centre-back, even Duffy, to train with the squad in case of a last-minute emergency.

Thankfully Foley has at least told Trap what he thinks rather than just running to the press. Nice to see.

I just hope we don't have to use McShane at all.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Foley has every reason to feel gutted and there is ambiguity over his injury, how he felt and how the medical team thought he was. This is what upsets me most.

But let's not get all hysterical.

As far as I see it he wasn't lied to. He was named in the original squad. Since that time injuries to centre-backs and centre-back cover require a squad member who can cover both full back and CB. Foley covers full back and CM. It's a pragmatic decision, albeit a hard one. I think Kingdom has rightly spelt out that it wasn't the only decision Trap could have made in this regard, but so be it.

Toashtie, I didn't see anything in that article saying there was disharmony in the team. A player has suffered a huge disappointment, another - his friend - has come in and everyone is sympathetic to the situation. Too often we're accused of just being there for the craic. Now when we make a tough decision at the business end we're accused of lies, creating unnecessary discord etc. Alternatively, you could say that the last time the manager made a tough call like this one, we made the WC Q/Fs.

I think it's good that Trap seems to be taking a hard line with O'Shea and even Given. No touchy feely favouritism there.

My fear is that McShane has leapt ahead of Kelly in the RB pecking order.

[Stuttgart88]

A bit more clarity from The Examiner (http://euro2012.irishexaminer.com/analysis/shocked-foley-i-feel-betrayed-195677.html)

"We thought very hard about what was the best and most appropriate decision,” he said. “We based our decision on the fact that the centre-halves — Dunne, O’Shea, O’Dea — all have problems. We are not sure if they will be 100%. Paul McShane did a careful medical check and we decided to include him in the 23. The reason behind this if we need one more central defender, one more stopper. We also know they are more subject to bookings.

“I spoke to Kevin this morning and with regret I communicated my decision to him. Obviously, he was clearly upset. Also me. But I have a responsibility to our team and the Irish nation. It’s my duty to take this decision, disregarding personal feeling. It was very difficult because we hold him in a high regard."

[Stuttgart88]

The injury concerns of the defence are not a new development.St Ledger's and O'Dea's knocks / strains have come since the squad was announced - each only occurring in the last 7 days or less.

I know I'm coming across all "Trapologist" as POS calls it, but I just think he's made a tough call and that's all really.

[SwanVsDalton]

I'm pretty frustrated with the ambiguity of the situation - the idea Foley feels misled is more fuel to the communication breakdown fire. Ultimately it's gutting for someone who's an committed stalwart and someone who has never really had a proper crack. Plus a big strength of this group is consistency of personnel and harmony - it may not be particularly damaging or costly, but it's not helpful either.

Having said all that - it's clear this wasn't a fitness call, and even if Foley trained he was in danger of missing out due to other knocks.

I don't like McShane. I'd also apportion considerable responsibility for Paris on him. But he's there now, he's experienced and he has a good personality - a good traveller.

However, as has been mentioned, I think this decision casts considerable doubt over at least one of the defenders (most likely O'Shea). Trap's all about consistency and clearly didn't want to have to make that call - only a serious concern over centre back cover could've led him there imo. Moreover Trap appears very keen to have Foley stick around. That's possibly prudent - but just as likely they could be anticipating a pull-out. Watch this space.

If McShane has leapfrogged Kelly, I'll be furious. Surprised though too - Kelly is a firm Trap favourite, I still expect him to come in if O'Shea bites the dust.

[jbyrne]

St Ledger's and O'Dea's knocks / strains have come since the squad was announced - each only occurring in the last 7 days or less.

I know I'm coming across all "Trapologist" as POS calls it, but I just think he's made a tough call and that's all really.

have to agree 100% with this.

hard as it is on Foley the decision has obviously been made for the right reasons. why do we always insist on looking for problems by bringing up disharmony in the camp, Foley allegedly being lied to etc? We have to fully trust Trap on this one.


If McShane has leapfrogged Kelly, I'll be furious. Surprised though too - Kelly is a firm Trap favourite, I still expect him to come in if O'Shea bites the dust.

kelly came on Saturday with his arm heavily strapped. Maybe he isnt 100% either after his arm break and the lack of game time over the last couple of months?

[paul_oshea]

So basically, what we can sum up from this experience is, no matter what, like the leetle details, all the preparation you want to do, can't fix situations like those that happened foley. Can we take that all the preparation for our games(like italy in 2002 and 2004) will actually make any difference to how we fare out in Poland?

I really feel for Foley, the correct footballing decision was made, but the way Trap went about it was wholly wrong. HE said he didn't like naming 29 man squads and dwindling down because of morale and what not, had he done this, there wouldn't be any problem with Foley now. No matter how well you think you prepare, you can get it wrong, and very badly at that. I wonder will Il Trap go about things differently in the future?

Would foley really come back, after what has happened if someone pulls out? Its like the girlfriend or meeting friends, if she finds out that you wanted to meet the friends first, and she was second choice, its never a good thing :D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Foley is better than McShane or Green, but hardly to the extent it's going to change the result in any game...

Coleman & Clark have more right to be upset IMO. Even if they don't seem to fit into Trap's 'plan'.

[passinginterest]

Not quite squad related but worth a read if you have a few minutes to kill:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/euro-88-revisited-461584-May2012/

[shakermaker1982]

Not quite squad related but worth a read if you have a few minutes to kill:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/euro-88-revisited-461584-May2012/

Gives you goose bumps reading that. I was 6 at the time and struggle to remember that tournament. 2 years later I can remember everything. Look at that team photo.....some great players.

[SkStu]

Not quite squad related but worth a read if you have a few minutes to kill:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/euro-88-revisited-461584-May2012/

jesus, im nearly in tears reading that. 24 years ago - i was 11 and i remember it so well. Thanks PI.

[Stuttgart88]

Not quite squad related but worth a read if you have a few minutes to kill:
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/euro-88-revisited-461584-May2012/Super stuff, except Fergus Mollen was mistaken. A win over Russia would not have seen us through. That old misperception again.