APOEL Nicosia - An example for LOI teams to follow?

[gastric]

It's pretty quiet on here presently and after the success of APOEL, I was thinking can we learn much from their success in developing teams and players?
Shamrock Rovers did us proud this season (IMO), but can we take the next step and produce more competitive teams and actually have local players represent us at senior level for Ireland?

I don't know anything about this club, but the fact that they come from a league in a very small country would suggest it could act as a model for us. Any thoughts or comments?

[Spudulika]

If a multi millionaire comes into a local club, ploughs money into the facilities, team and personnel without immediate (5-10 year) hope of a return, we might have something. That Cyprus has a very, very lax banking and tax regime with some of the dodgiest characters knocking about, also helps. Wouldn't look to Cyprus to provide a model for LOI clubs. We're bad enough as it is.

[mypost]

That Cyprus has a very, very lax banking and tax regime with some of the dodgiest characters knocking about, also helps.

I thought you were confusing the country with Ireland for a minute.

Is it a model? Yes it is. Despite the cash they have, none of their players are household names. They have what they have, because they have a good coach, and players that believe in themselves. We don't really have any of those in this country. And without ambition and belief, you can buy whatever you like, but you won't achieve anything. Lyon have poured millions and millions in for the past 15 years, and they still struggle in Europe.

We compare ourselves to what happens in England all the time. Nicosia don't compare themselves to what goes on in other leagues. They go out on the pitch and sweat blood for the cause, not give up before a ball is kicked.

[French Toasht]

In 06/07 Cork City beat Appollon Limassol 2-1 on aggregate in the Champions League. Two seasons later Anorthosis Famagusta were drawing with Inter Milan, Werder Breman and beating Panathinaikos in the group stages and now Apoel are in the quarters.

Of course they are a model and a great one at that, irrespective of any finance behind them, it doesn't compare one iota with the teams they have knocked out already.

But I still think a club like Rosenborg is the model that Irish teams should aspire to in the short term anyway.

[legendz]

The win being discussed in World Football: http://foot.ie/threads/163542-Hail-APOEL!!!


The facts (well some at least):
CL 06/07
Cork City beat Apollon Limassol 2-1 on aggregate in the first qualifying round. Murphy and Gamble were sent off after the final whistle and were a big loss for the next round when Cork bowed out against Red Star Belgrage. Now Red Star were always going to be tough but I've always believed had the two players not been sent off, Cork could've caused an upset. The reward would've been a tie against AC Milan, who eventually went on to win the competition. Would've been some story for Cork if AC Milan had come to the city on their way to a European Cup. Alas it was not meant to be.


CL 07/08
APOEL beaten 2-3 agg. against BATE in the first qualifying round. In the same round, Derry go down to Pyunik 0-2 agg.


CL 08/09
Anorthosis of Cyprus beat Pyunik Yerevan 3-0 agg. and Rapid Wien 4-3 agg in the second qualifying round. Drogheda meanwhile are desperately unlucky not to knockout Dynamo Kiev in the same round.
In the third qualifying round Anorthosis beat Olympiacos 3-1 agg.
They went on to finish last in Group B but pick up a win and three draws.


CL 09/10
APOEL make Group D, getting 3 draws but no wins, finishing 4th.
Bohs were knocked out in the second qualifying round.


CL 10/11
Omonia get to the third qualifying round, beaten 2-5 agg. by Red Bull Salzburg.
Boh out by TNS in the second qualifying round.


CL 11/12
APOEL start off in the same round as Rovers and have made it all the way to the quarter-finals.
In the Europa League AEK Larnaca finished 4th in Group J but at least won a game and drew two.

[citybone]

It's pretty quiet on here presently and after the success of APOEL, I was thinking can we learn much from their success in developing teams and players?
Shamrock Rovers did us proud this season (IMO), but can we take the next step and produce more competitive teams and actually have local players represent us at senior level for Ireland?

I don't know anything about this club, but the fact that they come from a league in a very small country would suggest it could act as a model for us. Any thoughts or comments?
They don't compete with GAA, Rugby or the English Premier League. They get better crowds for most league game than LOI clubs despite being in a smaller populated country.

Could it be done, Possibly i think it would take a 12 team with a split All Ireland League which got bigger crowds than we presently do and maybe 10 years of good European results would help seeding, but a few millionaire investors would still be needed to help training facilities and youth academy's
But will it happen no cos a number of the above ideas will never happen.
Say what you want about a 12 team split but it would help the top few club (who take part in Europe) at the expense of the lower ranked clubs.

[DeLorean]

Lyon have poured millions and millions in for the past 15 years, and they still struggle in Europe

Hardly fair. Lyon have qualified for the last 16 of the Champions League for nine consecutive seasons, losing in three quarter-finals and one semi-final. They may have spent millions but they've generally had to sell their stars to the bigger leagues.

[legendz]

Lyon had their own chances last night but APOEL were the better team. Sometimes it comes down to being a sporting game and APOEL were the winners on the night.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, I saw a fair bit of it and APOEL definitely looked the better side. That said, judging by the highlights of the first leg Lyon should have had more than a one goal lead going into it.

[Carrigaline]

It's pretty quiet on here presently and after the success of APOEL, I was thinking can we learn much from their success in developing teams and players?
Shamrock Rovers did us proud this season (IMO), but can we take the next step and produce more competitive teams and actually have local players represent us at senior level for Ireland?

I don't know anything about this club, but the fact that they come from a league in a very small country would suggest it could act as a model for us. Any thoughts or comments?
Looking at the Nicosia line-up last night, it looks like all but 2 of the starting 11 were actually Cypriots. Also, I would say that the Brazilian lads they had playing for them could be on as much as €10k a week. That's about 10 times what a leading LOI player would be on. More likely than not, there's a benefactor at the club with deep pockets.

[gastric]

Just read in an Australian newspaper that APOEL work with a budget of approximately 8 million. Don't know if this is completely true, but would be some success for this club if true.

[TerryPhelan]

Interesting stuff. It's curious to see countries with lower ranked coefficients than Ireland's getting club sides into the Champions League and beyond.

One of the characteristics seems to be a healthy contingent of foreign imports in any successful club side or national league. Much is made of the general improvement brought about in the EPL by the arrival of guys like Bergkamp, Vialli, Gullit, Zola, etc. The LOI has had outstanding performers like Livingstone, Ndo, etc. but I think that foreign quality will have to be bought to jumpstart a sea change in improvement. APOEL have done this. Whether we will see the knock-on effect on the Cypriot national side remains to be seen. They are probably the most feared minnow in any European qualification pot (though that may just be the terrorised Irish fan in me talking).

I touched on all this in an article I wrote after Bohemians v Red Bull Salzburg a couple of years ago - the direction of the League, the challenges being faced, the manner in which they are being addressed. Take a look and see what you think:
http://lysaghtb.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/nearly-men-yet-again/

[gastric]

Terry, What was interesting about your article was how much has changed since you wrote it. The extravagance that existed in sport has gone and the clubs are now struggling to survive, and that is in a 3 year period. Unbelievable! I do agree with you that a small league like ours needs to continue to look at other leagues for guidance and ideas even if presently clubs are feeling the pinch.
Shamrock Rovers this season showed the way and while they took a few hammerings I am sure they would have learned from the overall experience. Also, the number of players leaving the LOI and achieving quick success in England shows the big strides the league has made. McClean is the obvious example, but Cummins at Preston is also doing well. The lack of money is going to affect the clubs for the foreseeable future, but there is still room for optimism in the league's development.

[Sean South]

Shams already have the fascist fans just like Apoel now all they need is a multi millionare backer.

[redarmyfaction]

I looked at Appoels gates when they qualified out of the group stages and I seem to remember they were pulling figures in the region of 20K, the difficulty with emulating that, in Ireland is the people or the vast majority don't have football in them, it is probably impossible to establish a football culture from scratch in this Riverdance era, where popular culture is commodified for the passive masses. I remember my first Sunday in the Showgrounds it is over forty years ago but the boredom of that day is with me yet, and so it followed, while we had good some good seasons, it was flash in the pan stuff, and we were back to mediocrity next year. Sligo Rovers and entertainment were never in the same division, you went because you knew no better we were born to it, for many Football took off in ireland with the 1966 world cup and match of the day, an Irish muddy field with 22 fat guys huffing and puffing within a geyhound track could not compete with that glamour.

The LOI is an embarrassment to established Irish sport journalism, I had a row with an IT Sports staffer about their disgraceful coverage of LOI and he told me 'listen, nobody gives a ****' and he was right, it is, a minority pursuit and that the way we like it, we like it.

[Straightstory]

Apoel are a great role model.
Personally, I HATE the fact that the LOI is a 'minority pursuit'. The problem is that the typical football 'fan' in this country is lazy, unimaginative and child-like.
Bring on the millionaire investors!

[mypost]

I looked at Appoels gates when they qualified out of the group stages and I seem to remember they were pulling figures in the region of 20K, the difficulty with emulating that, in Ireland is the people or the vast majority don't have football in them, it is probably impossible to establish a football culture from scratch in this Riverdance era, where popular culture is commodified for the passive masses.

According to this (http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avecyp.htm), Apoel's average attendance at the end of last year was 7,500, making them one of just 4 domestic clubs with an average of 3,5k+.

[legendz]

In some ways the league has been unlucky, self-created in some cases, not to have made bigger breakthroughs. When Cork knocked out the Cypriot champions, it was a disaster having the two lads sent-off after the final whistle. had they been available, they could have given Red Star Belgrade a tougher game. When the Drogs went out to Kiev, we all know that was a terrible shocking miss at the end which should have seen the Drogs through. I believed when Bohs suffered that disaster away to TNS, had they instead of TNS been taking on CSKA Sofia in a EL play-off, they would have made more of a game of it. When Rovers went that path to the EL play-offs they got through. Our league champion should be capable more often than not, depending on a bit of luck, of making the EL group stages. If Rovers get to the EL play-offs again this year and face the likes of CSKA Sofia or Belgrade again, they'll definitely have a chance.

[osarusan]

It's more like - An example for Irish football fans to follow.

It's nothing LOI teams couldn't do if we were getting 5 figure attendances every week.

[MariborKev]

Normal ill informed piece by Philip Reid in the back of the IT today under the banner "Apoel are inspirational" on the same topic. Peaches of quotes including "serious works still needs to be done to get bums on seats at Premier Division matches"

This from a paper that had zero previews of this weeks SSC games, instead giving us 100+ words and pictures of the new strips from Holland and France for the Euros. Even today's IT has the wrong crest for Derry and the wrong goal scorer for the report of the Bray match.....

[gormacha]

"Looking at the Nicosia line-up last night, it looks like all but 2 of the starting 11 were actually Cypriots."

According to their wiki page, eleven of their twenty-seven man squad are from Cyprus. I looked back at the team that lined up in the last CL group game, and three of these eleven started. Of the other eight of the starting eleven, five were Brazilian and three were Portugeuse. It does suggest a purchasing power beyond Irish clubs.

APOEL also effectively represent Greek Cypriots (the acronym stands for "Athletic Football Club of Greeks of Nicosia") and even the most cursory knowledge of their history suggests they can then draw on supporter identity in a way that no LoI club can.

There's no doubt they are punching above their weight, but I don't think its likely that any other Cypriot club will emulate their achievement, nor do I expect them to reproduce it regularly. It's hard to see them as a model for LoI clubs to follow. I'm open to correction as I have a fairly slight knowledge of them, but at first glance...

[mypost]

"Looking at the Nicosia line-up last night, it looks like all but 2 of the starting 11 were actually Cypriots."

According to their wiki page, eleven of their twenty-seven man squad are from Cyprus. I looked back at the team that lined up in the last CL group game, and three of these eleven started. Of the other eight of the starting eleven, five were Brazilian and three were Portugeuse. It does suggest a purchasing power beyond Irish clubs.

It doesn't matter how their purchasing power compares to LOI clubs, more their purchasing power compared to their European rivals, which is very low. They have shown in this and other seasons, that cash is not everything in football. Football is still won and lost on the pitch, not in the boardroom.

[gormacha]

It doesn't matter how their purchasing power compares to LOI clubs, more their purchasing power compared to their European rivals, which is very low. They have shown in this and other seasons, that cash is not everything in football. Football is still won and lost on the pitch, not in the boardroom.

I wish what you said was true, but it isn't. In every league around the world, the richest clubs are the most successful. And when leagues compete against each other, the richer clubs win. This is so obviously the case I'm amazed anyone thinks otherwise. I don't like it, but its true.

Of course you'll be able to cite examples of clubs that occasionally buck this. APOEL, for example, have done very well, and as I said, they are punching above their weight. But it won't last long, because it never does anymore. TV screwed everything.

[mypost]

Cash helps of course, but if it's not spent wisely, it'll get you nowhere. You need to get the right coaches, the right players, the right backroom staff, etc. You have to keep confidence and morale high, which isn't always easy. There are plenty of clubs who have money, but can't deliver the goods on the pitch over 90 minutes.

[Spudulika]

Mypost - good point on the lax regime etc, glad someone noticed it :-)

Rosenborg were never going to be the model to follow. Neither are any of the Cypriot clubs - it costs too much and there isn't the audience. Cyprus traditionally take their lead from Turkey or Greece, and their fans follow either league (like in Malta with England and Italy being the 2 camps). For Irish clubs we have to look further afield to see what can be done on lesser resources.

Mika and BATE, two clubs who set up their youth systems, got their facilities right and while the Armenians have had to sell to re-invest, BATE have come a long way (as some Bohs fans who were there can testify to) being a shambles of a team. They are a model to follow, a nice club and have re-invested their european windfalls into developing players better. Clubs in Ireland generally don't have the youth structures or patience to develop.

[peadar1987]

Mypost - good point on the lax regime etc, glad someone noticed it :-)

Rosenborg were never going to be the model to follow. Neither are any of the Cypriot clubs - it costs too much and there isn't the audience. Cyprus traditionally take their lead from Turkey or Greece, and their fans follow either league (like in Malta with England and Italy being the 2 camps). For Irish clubs we have to look further afield to see what can be done on lesser resources.

Mika and BATE, two clubs who set up their youth systems, got their facilities right and while the Armenians have had to sell to re-invest, BATE have come a long way (as some Bohs fans who were there can testify to) being a shambles of a team. They are a model to follow, a nice club and have re-invested their european windfalls into developing players better. Clubs in Ireland generally don't have the youth structures or patience to develop.

I don't think it's really about patience, more about the fact that any Irish club who drop out of the arms race of unsustainable wages to invest in anything longer term than the end of the season will have their players poached, and be left behind for at least 5 years, until their investments start to bear fruit. That could be immensely damaging to an already fragile fanbase.

[gormacha]

I don't think it's really about patience, more about the fact that any Irish club who drop out of the arms race of unsustainable wages to invest in anything longer term than the end of the season will have their players poached, and be left behind for at least 5 years, until their investments start to bear fruit. That could be immensely damaging to an already fragile fanbase.

That's a good point, but it doesn't fully explain the shameful reluctance of many clubs to have a proper underage setup.

[Spudulika]

Peadar, Gormacha has a point (as do you) and it all boils down to this. Do you go and plough money into getting players in to "do something" in the league or do you take a longer term view of developing your players. If you lose them, you'll get compensation (BATE and MIKA go through this annually) however the most important thing is to ensure that you have players coming through to replace them. So many clubs are lazy, short sighted and cannot get past that fact that 4-5 years of poor results but trusting in the future of a well run youth set up will bring rewards. How many clubs would consider a 10 year plan? Very, very few because they want success now and the managers feed into this. Until the investment is made, by clubs, into developing really well run and efficient youth structures (to stop kids drifting to other sports especially) then it's the same old story.

[peadar1987]

Peadar, Gormacha has a point (as do you) and it all boils down to this. Do you go and plough money into getting players in to "do something" in the league or do you take a longer term view of developing your players. If you lose them, you'll get compensation (BATE and MIKA go through this annually) however the most important thing is to ensure that you have players coming through to replace them. So many clubs are lazy, short sighted and cannot get past that fact that 4-5 years of poor results but trusting in the future of a well run youth set up will bring rewards. How many clubs would consider a 10 year plan? Very, very few because they want success now and the managers feed into this. Until the investment is made, by clubs, into developing really well run and efficient youth structures (to stop kids drifting to other sports especially) then it's the same old story.

I agree, and it's always been my position that there needs to be strong leadership from the FAI to stop clubs sinking all their budgets into crazy wages, allowing them to implement structures for the future, as well as remain competitive domestically. It wouldn't be popular, but sure could the FAI be any less popular than they already are?!

[El-Pietro]

I think a big problem is that clubs aren't compensated enough for players we lose to clubs abroad.

In my time following City have lost the following players that were developed in house off the top of my head - there may be some I'm missing:
1999: Brian Barry-Murphy - Preston North End
2000: Damien Delaney -Leicester City
2000: Joe Gamble - Reading
2001: Leon McSweeney - Leicester City
2005: Shane Long - Reading
2007: Alan Bennett - Reading
2009: Kevin Long - Burnley

with the exception of Alan Bennett we didn't make too much from those transfers.

[Spudulika]

El-p, this can tie into what Peadar said, and something that was discussed on another thread. If the FAI were to centralise contracts and pool funds (it was suggested by your old boss Rico) in the style of the MLS, it would give Irish players, clubs and the FAI a much better bargaining chip. It makes sense, which means that a) clubs won't go for it, b) the FAI won't go for it and c) agents will make sure it won't happen.

What about Meyler? Did ye get cash for him?

[El-Pietro]

ah yeah forgot Meyler, got about 200k for him, which was reasonable - on the flip side we got 250k for Dave Mooney - we were ripped off there

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

What about Kevin Doyle and Roy O'Donovan?

[DaveyCakes]

APOEL Nicosia are this season's BATE Borisov

[El-Pietro]

What about Kevin Doyle and Roy O'Donovan?
we signed Kevin from St. Pats and Roy returned home from Coventry - same with Denis Behan (Northampton) John O'Flynn (Peterbrough) and others - its hard to claim that we developed them

[nigel-harps1954]

Meh, I'd say the opposite, it's much easier to claim you developed them. Much alike if Stephen McLaughlin goes over to England I'll say he learned everything he knows at Harps.

[El-Pietro]

I think a big problem is that clubs aren't compensated enough for players we lose to clubs abroad.

In my time following City have lost the following players that were developed in house off the top of my head - there may be some I'm missing:
1999: Brian Barry-Murphy - Preston North End
2000: Damien Delaney -Leicester City
2000: Joe Gamble - Reading
2001: Leon McSweeney - Leicester City
2005: Shane Long - Reading
2007: Alan Bennett - Reading
2009: Kevin Long - Burnley

with the exception of Alan Bennett we didn't make too much from those transfers.

of course in that time frame many young players made the step up into the first team but never went cross channel
Mark McNulty, Neal Horgan, Kalen Spillane, Kevin Murray, Greg O'Halloran, Cillian Lordan and probably lots more in that time frame

[El-Pietro]

Meh, I'd say the opposite, it's much easier to claim you developed them. Much alike if Stephen McLaughlin goes over to England I'll say he learned everything he knows at Harps.

we may have aided their progression but they didnt come through our youths like - which was the crux of the argument
you gonna give us credit for Mooney? Darren Murphy? (Cobh)

[nigel-harps1954]

we may have aided their progression but they didnt come through our youths like - which was the crux of the argument
you gonna give us credit for Mooney? Darren Murphy? (Cobh)


Sure, why not?

[El-Pietro]

Sure, why not?
well then our Youth System is incredible!

of our 2005 Championship, 2007 FAI Cup, 2008 Setanta Cup and 2011 First Division Championship winning side 100% of our players were either signed for other LOI clubs, came through our youth academy or returned from the UK!

[gustavo]

Apoel are a great role model.
Personally, I HATE the fact that the LOI is a 'minority pursuit'. The problem is that the typical football 'fan' in this country is lazy, unimaginative and child-like.
Bring on the millionaire investors!

People that have no interest in LoI football call it a "minority pursuit" out of guilt. They like to file it seperately to other football as if they are two different sports.

[A face]

People that have no interest in LoI football call it a "minority pursuit" out of guilt. They like to file it seperately to other football as if they are two different sports.

Thats it really, its like a means of dealing with the guilt or something, as if they know they are wrong but feel they need to justify it or something. Then when you have to explain that to a Spanish, Scottish or English league fan they think its completely nuts, its so braindead and laughable its best just to step around it and ignore. Only in Ireland.

[outspoken]

I honestly dont think a LOI team will ever make the last 8 of the Champions League. There just isn't any interest in football in THIS COUNTRY. Even when the LOI has a great success at home or abroad it is looked down upon and laughed at by the Barstoolers who would rather invest money in a ticket to see Manure one a year than support their local team or league.

Competition with the GAH and ruggers dont help either.

[nigel-harps1954]

I honestly dont think a LOI team will ever make the last 8 of the Champions League. There just isn't any interest in football in THIS COUNTRY. Even when the LOI has a great success at home or abroad it is looked down upon and laughed at by the Barstoolers who would rather invest money in a ticket to see Manure one a year than support their local team or league.

Competition with the GAH and ruggers dont help either.


In fairness, if two LOI teams qualified for the group stages of the Champions League and Europa League respectively then there would be a lot more people sitting up and taking notice. Not to mention the fact the CL qualifiers could easily put 15,000 to 20,000 in their ground for their games and the Europa team could get about 8,000 to 10,000 per game.

It's very common knowledge amongst league teams that success brings the crowds. Shamrock Rovers didn't have 4,000 attendances per game when they were battling relegation a couple of years ago or in the first division. It's only happened since Tallaght stadium opened and league success came.

Success on a higher level for LOI would bring more fans. Better infrastructure would bring more people through the gates too as Rovers have proven too.

There's no point comparing LOI to Cyprus in footballing terms until the infrastructure and finances can compare.

[mypost]

I honestly dont think a LOI team will ever make the last 8 of the Champions League. There just isn't any interest in football in THIS COUNTRY. Even when the LOI has a great success at home or abroad it is looked down upon and laughed at by the Barstoolers who would rather invest money in a ticket to see Manure one a year than support their local team or league.

Competition with the GAH and ruggers dont help either.

A couple of years ago, most people didn't honestly think a LOI team would make a European group stage.

We're not the only league with small crowds, and not the only small country in Europe. The main problem in this country is lack of ambition. Clubs and fans in Europe give up as soon as the draw is made, when the opposition are anyway semi-decent, instead of trying to take on the challenge. Some people last year wrote us off as soon as Copenhagen came out of the hat. We matched them for 2 hours of the tie, and were unlucky to come away with nothing. Our own coach said he thought the Partizan return leg was "a step too far". But we more than matched them too. Despite their millions, Copenhagen were humiliated in their CL play-off, didn't do much better in the UEFA Group phase, and sacked their coach. Partizan Belgrade went out of 2 European competitions at home, and their coach was sacked at Christmas. All that cash poured in was wasted.

I believed we could win 2 qualifying rounds in Europe, and we showed everyone why. We knew if we won two rounds, that we would break new ground for the LOI in Europe, and we did. We got the toughest group in the group phase, but we didn't disgrace ourselves. Everyone has to start somewhere. Apoel had to, Copenhagen had to, and we have to. You can't throw the towel in, regardless of the opposition's qualities. Most of the time they will progress, but make them earn it, not hand it to them before you kick a ball.

[outspoken]

You say that attebdances will go up with better infrastructure and european success and your right however out of the 20,000 you mention the sad fact is a very large majority of that 20,000 would come to support the away team if it was a united chelsea even madrid or barca so as soon as the big european draw is over that 20,000 woukd drop to around 10,000 and while that would still be a good result its no where near enough for a team that wants to play CL football.

As said above I think success for the loi would be new infrastructure, healty attendances and europa league qualification on a regular basis.....for more than 1 team, the last thing we need the baratoolers labbeling us is a 1 team league.