Could You Have Managed Ireland to Qualification?

[livehead1]

Reading various threads recently I have noticed a substantial amount of dissatisfaction with Trap's decisions both in terms of playing style and personal.

The question is in the title, is he really the magician who took a very limited team to a major tournament or could you have done the same?

Be interesting if this was a poll...

[bennocelt]

Yeah, blindfolded:)
International football is a doddle

[ifk101]

Is €1.2 million a year on the table for my services? If so, the answer is yes :)

[Stuttgart88]

It's funny one. I think few managers would have bettered our away results. I think more than a few would have bettered our home results. We were fortunate that Slovakia faded badly, but yet 21 points is - I think - our second best haul ever.

[SwanVsDalton]

I sense a Football Manager challenge afoot. Might be too simple though - qualify by only picking LOI players, that'd be a good one.

[tetsujin1979]

It's funny one. I think few managers would have bettered our away results. I think more than a few would have bettered our home results. We were fortunate that Slovakia faded badly, but yet 21 points is - I think - our second best haul ever.
noone else in the group won in Armenia, for one thing.

[Kingdom]

I'd probably be classed as a Trapophile, but the question posed in the OP isn't really fair! :) If you were to ask would another manager have achieved the same, then that's a better question. And it's a question I'd answer with a: YES.

I don't buy into the issue of what managers would want to manage us. There are enough managers that have worked at a high enough level, and won trophies that would happily manage us for two years with the wages Trap is on - just because our media are unable to switch their gaze from the bowels of England and open their minds doesn't mean they are not other options!

If you were to take a list of all the players that could be considered fair-game for a call-up, I dunno the top 50, the squad shapes up ok, considering we're totally dependent on almost one league. It's no better or worse than the majority of tier two and three nations that we're judged against.
Two very good goalkeeping options - a very good range of strikers, from the bulky to the pacey, the nimble to the skillful; technically good options on the wings. It nearly always comes back to the centre of the pitch, and the formation that we employ. Despite what he said the other night about Keane, we employ a 442. It seems to me that the management, and maybe the players themselves believe we're not capable of playing with any other system, despite 442 being the minority in football generally. I really would like to see the 4231 or 433 being given a shot. I think we have the options within a squad to cater for it.
We also have a flexible defensive group which probably lessens the need for 8 defenders in a group of 23 (even more so when Coleman can be utilised at right back if needs be), allowing an extra midfielder.

With the options we have in midfield (Whelan, Andrews, McCarthy, Gibson, Fahey, Meyler, Green, Hoolahan) we have players that can sit, players that score goals, players that are good on the ball, and aggressive players. It is a pity Meyler hasn't recuperated in time, as he isn't a realistic candidate at present, but if he was I'd like to see a duo of either himself, Whelan, McCarthy or Fahey in a holding role, with either Andrews, Gibson, or Wes advanced. This would have to be supplemented by two relatively attacking full-backs, which could allow for Coleman in this scenario, or Foley given his comfort on the ball, with Ward the other side. This would be topped off with two wide attackers - take your pick from McGeady, McClean, Duff or even Doyle - and a man up top.

That's just one example. I think he's really dug a hole for himself by having Robbie as captain - he's virtually undroppable. I'm not calling for him to be dropped either, but he's having to fit Robbie into team/system, even if the team/system isn't necessarily suited to him. He doesn't have that issue if he has Given or Dunne as captain.
I really hope in June we're not looking back with real disappointment at how we fared - we've never done poorly in a finals - Euro 88 was an excellent performance, despite not making the knock-outs, for a novice country up against it - and that is something that will come to the fore as we get closer to June I think.

A bit of a ramble, sorry,

[Kingdom]

noone else in the group won in Armenia, for one thing.

Exactly - and had we not played there first, I'm not sure we would have either. Personally at the start of the group I would have been disappointed with not winning there - just as with Macedonia, but had we played there after Russia or Slovakia, then it would have been positive to come away with a draw.

Also it can't be overlooked just how unusual our group was. Slovakia were absolutely atrocious as 2nd seeds, yet we only took 2 points from them - we would have deserved victory in Zilina imo, and could have snatched 3 points in Dublin - even looking at other groups - in 6/8 I think we would have struggled. a lot of if#s and but's I appreciate.

[Metrostars]

I don't like the Trap bashing myself. Only the second time ever we've qualified for this competition and some people are still not happy.

[Murfinator]

Anyone who answers yes to this is showing their naivety, and contrary to what every forum would have you believe management isn't just picking a teamsheet. If you're still unconvinced I'd suggest asking unbiased non-Irish what they think of our squad and how they'd rate Traps record of two playoff places with that bunch.

[bennocelt]

Estonia and Armenia? Jesus Kerr n McCartney were bloody unlucky.
If he is a genius of a manager why were so many on the fence before the armenia game, including on here and in the FAI which held back from giving him a new contract?
Stats and stats don't hide the fact of the awful football and the general publics apathy with the team which is amazing to see for a person who grew up in the Charlton era.

[DannyInvincible]

Public apathy doesn't bother me hugely. I'll be loving every minute of our games at the Euros. If you're an Irish football supporter, they'll just be a continuation of your long-term interest anyway. If others aren't interested, their loss. To be honest, if people who would have difficulty getting behind the team based on the brand of football we play, in spite of the fact we're playing at our first finals for a decade (hello?!), wish to remain apathetic, it's not something that'll keep me up at night. They're no big loss to those who'll be enjoying themselves with a genuine interest. In saying that, I do think the national buzz will be truly back in force come June.

[bennocelt]

Or some people who think we could still qualify by playing decent football, and not follow any old rubbish. Like the ole ole brigade

[geysir]

We haven't played 'decent football' throughout a group since the 1982 qual campaign.
We could try though.

[bennocelt]

We haven't played 'decent football' throughout a group since the 1982 qual campaign.
We could try though.

Dont know, we did try some good stuff under Mick, no? Albeit there was a lot of awful stuff too.

[Spudulika]

Attractive football? Like the snorefest that Arcelona play? Tap tap tap, no. The sky league shows the way, lump and run, chase, hit, batter. We take our cue from the other Irish big ball sports, Gaelic and Rugby, except that Gaelic is now becoming more like the boring Italian/Spanish negative style, instead of half forwards shooting for 30 yards for points. Ireland play dogged Italian football that is allied to what he do best, get stuck in, and besides, there isn't the creative element in our or the British game that we can let loose - nobody does, and win! I want to see my national team or club team be successful, bring through players and give it 100%, if I want entertainment I stick on an Adam Sandler movie.

Dunphy is trying his best to hype himself up (and rte and the meeja are joining in as it sells advertising) but he should be ashamed of himself. He showed his true lack of intelligence this week and 20minutes ago I tried to listen to his interview again. He has been anti-Ireland since his buddy Gilesy was overlooked for the Ireland job (Jack got it) and he would have tried to be his number 2. This is Dunphy, who rubbishes the local game and has tried to tag along with any controversy to boost his failing bank balance. Without him and his cheerleaders/sycophants in the meeja this thread wouldn't have oxygen.

We qualified, we players almost solely playing in poor leagues, hyped to hell by sky, and we have to get a grounding in reality. I had the fortune to see 2 of Traps sides play in Frankfurt (Bayern and VFB) and they always gave it their all. He did a great job to get Ireland qualified from the toughest group on offer, we need to do as Keane says and get over it.

[peadar1987]

The most attractive football (I don't buy into "good stuff" being entertaining, "good stuff" is what wins matches, no matter how ugly it is!) I can remember Ireland playing was under McCarthy, but he had different players at his disposal.

Mick loved to get the full backs involved up the wings, but he had Gary Kelly, Carr, Harte, and Staunton who were very well suited to doing that, as well as central midfielders like Holland, Kinsella, and Roy Keane, who gave us the stability in the centre of the park to allow the full backs to bomb forwards. He also tended to play Kilbane at left wing, and McAteer or Kelly on the right, all players far more capable tracking back than Trap's best options of McGeady and Duff, so we could overlap a lot more effectively without leaving ourselves exposed. (Or any more exposed than we already were with Ian Harte on the pitch).

The only wide players I can think off offhand suitable to playing that sort of system at Trap's disposal now are Coleman and perhaps Lawrence, to a degree, so we'd need two more in that mould to even think about playing the McCarthy system. And even then, Andrews and Whelan in the centre of the park are a much weaker prospect than Kinsella and Holland, or either one of those two paired with Roy Keane.

And finally, there's the fact that Keane and Duff, our two real game-changers from 2002, are not the players they were back then, and as good as Doyle is, he doesn't have the capacity to terrify defences with his presence like Niall Quinn could.

So essentially what I am trying to say is that if McCarthy had had the players Trap now has at his disposal, he would have to change his system to one that was a lot less entertaining.

[bennocelt]

International football is rubbish - this talk of squads is rubbish. Greece and Denmark won the Euros. Korea got to a WC semis and the recent African nations was entertaining but lacked any real quality. Apart from Spain and Germany, maybe a Messi inspired Argentina please tell me what teams are great to watch, what teams are loaded with star quality? More or less any team on their day can get a good performance.
My point is we would have also qualified playing good football rather than hoof the ball. (yes give me Barcelona over Stoke all day!! apart from their cheating!)
Spud - hardest group, what!!! We got one of the easiest.

[Spudulika]

International football is rubbish - this talk of squads is rubbish. Greece and Denmark won the Euros. Korea got to a WC semis and the recent African nations was entertaining but lacked any real quality. Apart from Spain and Germany, maybe a Messi inspired Argentina please tell me what teams are great to watch, what teams are loaded with star quality? More or less any team on their day can get a good performance.
My point is we would have also qualified playing good football rather than hoof the ball. (yes give me Barcelona over Stoke all day!! apart from their cheating!)
Spud - hardest group, what!!! We got one of the easiest.

Benno, Russia are great in qualifying with better players than us. Slovakia were at the last World Cup with players in better leagues than ours and were 2nd favourites. Armenia were 1 qualifying too early with some terrifically good young players produced thanks to long term, far sighted domestic club policies (most notably Mika). Macedonia have very good players and are never easy to visit and have given everyone problems. Andorra, well, they make up the numbers. Though I should have said, one of the hardest, Group H would have been the worst.

[bennocelt]

Russia were the only good team, and they are always hot n cold. The fact we havent beaten a top 16 team in years says something.

[geysir]

Dont know, we did try some good stuff under Mick, no? Albeit there was a lot of awful stuff too.
Trying is one thing and actually doing it is another. Mick was trier and we did try to play the ball the ball as well as use the considerable prowess of Quinn to great advantage.
The difference between 2002 and the 1982 era was that we could outplay and outwit the best teams then, like France and Holland at home and in Holland's case in a do or die game for both, go toe for toe with them on their home ground. Whereas against Holland at home in 2001 we were at our wits end, nerves dangling like Big Ben. And in the case of Russia away last year, depend on events (eg Dunnes' goal line clearance) which can't be explained by science.

[John83]

...And in the case of Russia away last year, depend on events (eg Dunnes' goal line clearance) which can't be explained by science.
Yes they can. The following simple inequality explains everything.

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Dunne.jpg > http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/europe/russia/map_of_russia.jpg

[pineapple stu]

I think you need a ">" jpg for full visual effect there!

[peadar1987]

International football is rubbish - this talk of squads is rubbish. Greece and Denmark won the Euros. Korea got to a WC semis and the recent African nations was entertaining but lacked any real quality. Apart from Spain and Germany, maybe a Messi inspired Argentina please tell me what teams are great to watch, what teams are loaded with star quality? More or less any team on their day can get a good performance.
My point is we would have also qualified playing good football rather than hoof the ball. (yes give me Barcelona over Stoke all day!! apart from their cheating!)
Spud - hardest group, what!!! We got one of the easiest.

I'm too young to remember Denmark in '92, but both Greece and South Korea got those results on the back of great organisation at the back, hard work, and not trying anything fancy. Just like Trap is going for with Ireland

There are a few teams who play attacking, inventive football, you're right. Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Germany, Chile, but there's a reason most of the teams apart from these don't. You need the right players to play that sort of a system. At the moment, Ireland don't. At least, not to the level at which it makes more sense than what we're doing now.

We're never going to outpass the Spanish or the Italians, so why play into their hands by trying to? Our best hope is to do what Trap has had us doing very well, which is defending as a unit, and hitting them on the break.

[Crosby87]

I agree with the above post. And the media always talks up Chile as a great dark horse and I bet on them, and they never do anything.

[Cuyahoga]

No I couldnt !

[bennocelt]

I'm too young to remember Denmark in '92, but both Greece and South Korea got those results on the back of great organisation at the back, hard work, and not trying anything fancy. Just like Trap is going for with Ireland

There are a few teams who play attacking, inventive football, you're right. Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Germany, Chile, but there's a reason most of the teams apart from these don't. You need the right players to play that sort of a system. At the moment, Ireland don't. At least, not to the level at which it makes more sense than what we're doing now.

We're never going to outpass the Spanish or the Italians, so why play into their hands by trying to? Our best hope is to do what Trap has had us doing very well, which is defending as a unit, and hitting them on the break.

That's a fair point actually but we are nowhere near getting to a quarter/semi? Would be surprised if Traps team get a point in the summer

[peadar1987]

That's a fair point actually but we are nowhere near getting to a quarter/semi? Would be surprised if Traps team get a point in the summer

My personal prediction would be a draw against the Croatians and Italians, and a loss to the Spanish, but in 2004, the Greeks just scraped through their group, by virtue of having scored more goals than Spain. If we can beat Croatia in the first game, and I think it's within our capability to do that, we can frustrate Italy and get a point, but probably won't be able to hold out for 90 minutes against the Spanish pressure. 4 points is perfectly possible to qualify with, and I would be delighted with that. However, I think playing cautious football and frustrating the opposition is the most realistic way of doing that. Going out all guns blazing against technically superior opposition is likely to get us demolished.

[elroy]

Look at the squads that Kerr and Stan had their at their disposal. The personnel available are certainly no better than what were available to his two immediate predecessors. The key difference is that Traps teams are hard to beat and that he has qualified. Kerr probably shouldve delivered qualification but two bad results against Israel screwed his one full campaign up, would what happened to Ireland at home to Israel happen under Trap, I very much doubt it.

Look how organised the team are in Trap. They have a definitive purpose and system. Anyone who enjoys the game of football, appreciates the tactics he has employed and who has watched Ireland live can appreciate the defence tactics adopted by trap. They are not 'entertaining' to watch but they are very effective, very difficult to break down. Yes at the detriment of a strong attacking force but his ethos is first not to lose.

[the bear]

it won't be boring to watch in the euro's

[John83]

My personal prediction would be a draw against the Croatians and Italians, and a loss to the Spanish, but in 2004, the Greeks just scraped through their group, by virtue of having scored more goals than Spain. If we can beat Croatia in the first game, and I think it's within our capability to do that, we can frustrate Italy and get a point, but probably won't be able to hold out for 90 minutes against the Spanish pressure. 4 points is perfectly possible to qualify with, and I would be delighted with that. However, I think playing cautious football and frustrating the opposition is the most realistic way of doing that. Going out all guns blazing against technically superior opposition is likely to get us demolished.
I think Croatia are underrated here, and Italy overrated for historical reasons. There's very little between the two teams.

[peadar1987]

I think Croatia are underrated here, and Italy overrated for historical reasons. There's very little between the two teams.

A fair point, but I do think at major tournaments especially, reputation and belief count for a huge amount. How often have we seen poor German, Italian, or Brazilian sides reach the finals, and excel, simply because that is what they always do? It's not the biggest factor, but I do think that it is important. Similarly to the way good players often become great upon signing for Manchester United, for example.

[Irish_Praha]

A fair point, but I do think at major tournaments especially, reputation and belief count for a huge amount. How often have we seen poor German, Italian, or Brazilian sides reach the finals, and excel, simply because that is what they always do? It's not the biggest factor, but I do think that it is important. Similarly to the way good players often become great upon signing for Manchester United, for example.

Like Diego Forlan and Liam Miller? :p

[DannyInvincible]

Like Diego Forlan and Liam Miller? :p

No, ignore them obviously. Like Djemba-Djemba and Bébé. ;)

[peadar1987]

I might have to retract that statement in light of the fact that I've just remembered David Bellion!

[pineapple stu]

A fair point, but I do think at major tournaments especially, reputation and belief count for a huge amount. How often have we seen poor German, Italian, or Brazilian sides reach the finals, and excel, simply because that is what they always do?
While they can definitely overachieve at times (Germany in the 2002 World Cup being the obvious example), remember Germany got knocked out at the groups in Euro 2004 (drawing with Latvia) and Euro 2000, while Italy didn't make it through the Euro 2004 groups either (or indeed, the last World Cup). France too, another country "too big to go down" to mix cliches, have gotten knocked out at group stages in recent times (three times out of five since winning the World Cup/Euro double). We need to respect Italy obviously, but they're definitely beatable.

[Metrostars]

I watched the Italy-USA match last week and although it was supposed to be an experimental side, they were relatively poor.