Four pro teams in a different league.

[GUFCghost]

I think its time we gave up on the League of Ireland,there are two Parish teams and a University team in this League,so the standard clearly isn't very high.I say we should copy the rugby lads,Four provinces in the premier league or the Scottish league!

[A face]

Ahh no i'd say

[MagicMon]

I'm struggling to get my head around this idea. Could you phrase it as a DVD?

[Macy]

I say we should copy the rugby lads,Four provinces in the premier league or the Scottish league!
I hope that application process goes better for you than the last one.

[Dunny]

Would you be saying this if GUFC/GUST were involved?

Yeah didnt think so...

[gufcfan]

Mother of christ...

[legendz]

Limerick, Cork, Dublin and Galway should all be capable of having good teams and support with the right structures in place. With the majority of Munster rugby games in Limerick, Cork has no rival for regular sports in their city. Dublin clubs need to get better support. Rovers have moved in a good direction with their new ground but what about their Dublin rivals? The city surely should have two strong clubs.

[passerrby]

I think its time we gave up on the League of Ireland,there are two Parish teams and a University team in this League,so the standard clearly isn't very high.I say we should copy the rugby lads,Four provinces in the premier league or the Scottish league!

Your timming is impeccable. Unlike your plan

[El-Pietro]

Limerick, Cork, Dublin and Galway should all be capable of having good teams and support with the right structures in place. With the majority of Munster rugby games in Limerick, Cork has no rival for regular sports in their city. Dublin clubs need to get better support. Rovers have moved in a good direction with their new ground but what about their Dublin rivals? The city surely should have two strong clubs.
there are more than two sports you know?

Football and Hurling both have huge following in Cork, many Munster fans travel to Limerick every week, theres also the cross channel competition, and basketball has a decent following in Cork

[gormacha]

Ireland could try and operate a football sports franchise just like is done in rugby, and play in a foreign league (and it would have to be the EPL. Who'd wtach SPL football?).

LoI would go on pretty much unaffacted. Those who love it, love it. Those who don't, don't.

Rugby's a good example - there are two pro rugby franchises in Munster and Leinster (these aren't provincial teams any more, and haven't been for years), but the grassroots game goes on pretty much unaffacted.

[nigel-harps1954]

Christ no. That's one of the worst ideas I have ever heard for any subject in any area.

[legendz]

there are more than two sports you know?

Football and Hurling both have huge following in Cork, many Munster fans travel to Limerick every week, theres also the cross channel competition, and basketball has a decent following in Cork

yeah, I'm aware of that. I would classify either sport as regular fixtures in the city. The last time I was in Cork, it had the feel of a city that should have a decent sized stadium for regular support. Cork City would be the only sport to fit that bill unless the GAA go professional!!

[passerrby]

Lads I know this is a forum to discuss football related matters but we don't have to discuss the really hair brained proposals

[Louth4sam]

I think its time we gave up on the League of Ireland,there are two Parish teams and a University team in this League,so the standard clearly isn't very high.I say we should copy the rugby lads,Four provinces in the premier league or the Scottish league!

Doesn't say much about your own former club when there are two "Parish teams and a University team" more viable.

[CrowdedHouse]

With friends like these, who needs......etc

[Jofspring]

Rugby's a good example - there are two pro rugby franchises in Munster and Leinster (these aren't provincial teams any more, and haven't been for years), but the grassroots game goes on pretty much unaffacted.

:confused: There are four pro rugby franchises as you call them Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht, not two. All have fully professional players playing in fully professional leagues. It has had a huge affect on the grassroots too. In a positive way it has got way more kids wanting to play rugby and be professional at it and in a negative way it has destroyed in my opinion the Ulster Bank League. The standard of it is poor compared to even 5 or 6 years ago with most top players taken away to the 4 provincial teams as soon as they show any kind of promise with more academies, A teams, development teams etc.. now being formed within the provinces. The attendances have steadily dropped barr a few games a year.

On what the OP is saying, I presume its a joke.

[Guinney]

Even though the current model for the League of Ireland isn't exactly getting the crowds through the gates, I don't think a franchise model is the way to go. Firstly, from a financial point of view who is going to pay for the development of the four provinces. It would be a risky investment and the FAI would more than likely stay away.

Are Irish fans actually going to take to these new franchises. An argument could be made that if the rugby teams could do it, why can't the football teams do it. But the truth is Irish football fans are floating fans at best and are too caught up with the Premiership. These franchises would have to be at a good level for these fans to have any interest.

As a League of Ireland fan I am happy supporting my local team - Dundalk. If there was a Leinster franchise, more than likely it would be located somewhere in Dublin. It would be hard for me to have such an attachment for such a club. Also what would happen to all the clubs in he country, would they just be disbanded?

I think something needs to happen within the league to generate more interest. For me alot of the blame lies with the FAI and the media. Neither have enough interest in the league and the FAI don't invest in the league, as much as they should as they are largely concerned with the national team. Also the mindset of the majority Irish football fan (i.e. the barstooler) needs to be changed, but someone finds out how, please tell me. The barstooler complains about poor facilities, lack of media coverage and the quality of football, which are things that all need to be addressed. However, their minds are all warped with their skysports, big stadiums (that many never see), big names and constant media updates that it would be a blow to their system actually attending a match.

[GUFCghost]

I'd say the connacht team would be better off in Sligo,for the same reason munster rugby is based in Limerick

[Jofspring]

I think something needs to happen within the league to generate more interest. For me alot of the blame lies with the FAI and the media. Neither have enough interest in the league and the FAI don't invest in the league, as much as they should as they are largely concerned with the national team. Also the mindset of the majority Irish football fan (i.e. the barstooler) needs to be changed, but someone finds out how, please tell me. The barstooler complains about poor facilities, lack of media coverage and the quality of football, which are things that all need to be addressed. However, their minds are all warped with their skysports, big stadiums (that many never see), big names and constant media updates that it would be a blow to their system actually attending a match.

What amazes me is that the FAI haven't realized that to best serve the national team they need to protect our young players coming through and the local teams (LOI teams, Senior league teams, Junior teams) a hell of a lot more and not let english teams take our best talent and toss them aside if they feel they are of no use to them anymore, leading to a lot of young players losing interest in the sport. They seem to be relying a lot on the English teams taking our players and from what I can see hope that if even a few can come through the top teams then its a success.

I was only watching an interview with Ian Holloway (i think from a few years ago) the other day were he sent a warning to the FA to put a stop to top teams i.e Man U and Chelsea taking the best players from smaller English teams and stacking them up in the academies and reserves letting them rot on benches etc… He made the point that why can't a team like Blackpool develop a player as good as a team like Man U, they have coaches, footballs and supplies, what more could you want. Having a fancy training ground with roofs over it etc… isn't going to make a better player. He said the spanish don't allow this to happen and that he was over there for a look and they are developing players all over the country.

At the moment more and more LOI players seem to be coming through the right way and making a name for themselves here before moving over. The FAI need to be pushing this more I think. Most barstoolers hadn't even heard of James McClean a few months ago but now they are up in arms over how he should be in the national team. Not long ago they could have gone to the likes of the Brandywell, Jackman, Turners Cross etc… to see this same player. The FAI need to push that the future of Irish football, the future premier league stars, the future International stars are being developed right here in Ireland. If the top talent is kept here for as long as possible I have no doubt the standard in the league will keep rising and the teams may even start getting the right money for their talent that they deserve. If a club can get decent money for even one or two of its players that can set them up for a whole season or go towards ground development. It would be a snow ball affect. The FAI though seem to be happy enough to keep allowing players head over to the UK and be used and tossed aside when not needed.

Thats my little rant for the evening over :cool:

[Spudulika]

Jof, this was proposed by one former Cork City boss, a centralised contract system (not unlike the MLS) where players would be loaned to clubs and so that the FAI would protect and monitor the development of players under it's jurisdiction. It makes perfect sense for sport, society and business, so it was shot down by a combo of LOI, Junior and Schoolboy clubs as they all want their own little fiefdoms.

[gufcfan]

I'd say the connacht team would be better off in Sligo,for the same reason munster rugby is based in Limerick

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/epic-jackie-chan-template.png

[ger121]

It must be nearly time to dust of the All Ireland League thread as well :waiting:

[seiphil]

No way. Did they try get some Dublin team to play in England before? Awful idea.

[Jofspring]

Jof, this was proposed by one former Cork City boss, a centralised contract system (not unlike the MLS) where players would be loaned to clubs and so that the FAI would protect and monitor the development of players under it's jurisdiction. It makes perfect sense for sport, society and business, so it was shot down by a combo of LOI, Junior and Schoolboy clubs as they all want their own little fiefdoms.

Ya it has worked in rugby but too many people only care about what they can get out of it in soccer and watch their own backs.

Is there any rule where lets say anybody under the age of 18 that is being signed to an English or forgiven club must have an FAI official in the presence? Cause I think there should be. There should be somebody within in the FAI who's sole job is to make sure young fellas and their parents are protected and are not having their heads filled with notions and promises the clubs will most likely never full fill. Somebody that has been involved in grassroots football, and or has experience playing both here and abroad if possible.

[legendz]

:confused: There are four pro rugby franchises as you call them Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht, not two. All have fully professional players playing in fully professional leagues. It has had a huge affect on the grassroots too. In a positive way it has got way more kids wanting to play rugby and be professional at it and in a negative way it has destroyed in my opinion the Ulster Bank League. The standard of it is poor compared to even 5 or 6 years ago with most top players taken away to the 4 provincial teams as soon as they show any kind of promise with more academies, A teams, development teams etc.. now being formed within the provinces. The attendances have steadily dropped barr a few games a year.

On what the OP is saying, I presume its a joke.

I'd presume the OP is joking alright. All around the world there are clubs for towns, cities, parts of cities and regions. There could be a place for provincial teams of sorts outside of current areas and cities. If there was a plan for regions without a club though, there could be a place for a Connaught team for the areas outside of Sligo and Galway, possibly a South Leinster team for that area without an LoI representative. I wouldn't be for any of this I have to stress though.

The league in terms of clubs is grand as it is, could just do with a few more clubs really is all.

If someone want to discuss franchises, I'd break it down that if for some reason that road was to be taken, every city would have a team, current established LoI clubs would have a place. What'd be looked at then is areas with no team. You'd be looking at the Tipperary side of Munster, Kerry along with west Limerick and Cork, 3 counties in Connaught, and two areas, one for north and south Leinster. It would never take off. Waste of a discussion but pointing it out none the less.

[Spudulika]

Jofspring, I don't know about having an FAI official present (I've never heard of this happening) but there would probably be something about freedom of movement thrown into it. Right now players are not allowed to move outside their area under the age of 16, let alone country, but we all know what happens with big clubs - the parents "find" work near the club and move, how else are 12 and 13 year old Spanish kids signing for Chelsea.

There needs to be something done about this player drain and it has to be (jesus I'm saying this again) top down - bottom up. The clubs and FAI need to get together and figure what is best for the whole football family, as mad as that sounds. Right now our company is working on a project for a pro club here and the problem is this - the club, which is the top level of football in the city and region, set up a few years ago football "schools" along the GAA parish model. They took control of old factory/industry based football clubs which were struggling to survive and have developed 7 schools to feed up to the pro side and it's reserves. However none of the schools co-operate, they sell players at the age of 15 and 16 to bigger clubs and actively discourage the young players from signing pro terms with the top side (there are reasons for this but even without such excuses they do it anyway). Now this is in a city of 700,000, with one big pro club. It's almost unimaginable to think of how anything can be done for Ireland.

[legendz]

At the moment more and more LOI players seem to be coming through the right way and making a name for themselves here before moving over. The FAI need to be pushing this more I think. Most barstoolers hadn't even heard of James McClean a few months ago but now they are up in arms over how he should be in the national team. Not long ago they could have gone to the likes of the Brandywell, Jackman, Turners Cross etc… to see this same player. The FAI need to push that the future of Irish football, the future premier league stars, the future International stars are being developed right here in Ireland. If the top talent is kept here for as long as possible I have no doubt the standard in the league will keep rising and the teams may even start getting the right money for their talent that they deserve. If a club can get decent money for even one or two of its players that can set them up for a whole season or go towards ground development. It would be a snow ball affect. The FAI though seem to be happy enough to keep allowing players head over to the UK and be used and tossed aside when not needed.

Thats my little rant for the evening over :cool:

Now is the best time for the FAI to promote that. We have qualified for a major championship and ex-LoI players are involved in that success. There should be a promotion campaign using these players to highlight the talent that is in the league.


There needs to be something done about this player drain and it has to be (jesus I'm saying this again) top down - bottom up. The clubs and FAI need to get together and figure what is best for the whole football family, as mad as that sounds.

I don't see a problem with players looking to go abroad as long as clubs are getting a good deal. There's never going to be big money is this league but there will be enough for a pro set-up.

[GCdfc]

there are more than two sports you know?

Football and Hurling both have huge following in Cork, many Munster fans travel to Limerick every week, theres also the cross channel competition, and basketball has a decent following in Cork

Don't forget Road Bowling. I came across this last weekend and there were more people watching it than at many LOI matches.

[Macy]

Somebody that has been involved in grassroots football, and or has experience playing both here and abroad if possible.
Well the "grassroots" in schoolboy football are a major part of the problem. I'd agree with some kind of FAI rep, but I can't see the schoolboy affiliates representing the "nursery" clubs (who actually have more power than the LoI in the FAI) voting for christmas.

[El-Pietro]

Don't forget Road Bowling. I came across this last weekend and there were more people watching it than at many LOI matches.
its quite popular in North and East Cork alright!

[GUFCghost]

Galwegians won't support anything,they'll go to see galway v mayo and connacht v munster,but thats about it.Sligo is the capital of connacht in football.They have had a League of Ireland team for ages and its well supported.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

I think its time we gave up on the League of Ireland,there are two Parish teams and a University team in this League,so the standard clearly isn't very high.I say we should copy the rugby lads,Four provinces in the premier league or the Scottish league!

Sure if you're all on for franchises you'll have no problem supporting SD Galway then (although I'm pretty sure you're pulling the **** - at least I hope you are)

[dong]

Galwegians won't support anything,they'll go to see galway v mayo and connacht v munster,but thats about it.Sligo is the capital of connacht in football.They have had a League of Ireland team for ages and its well supported.

Yet you want to base the Connacht rugby team in Sligo? Thanks for that. Great idea.

[peadar1987]

The provincial system will never work for domestic football. As I've said before, to tear barstoolers away from slavish devotion to the English leagues, there would have to be instant success in Europe, we're talking Champions' League group stages at the very minimum. You'd need a squad of at least 20 top class players to do that, which would cost upwards of £300 million just on transfer fees, and perhaps another £150 million on wages each year. That's per province, so you'd have spent perhaps £1.8 billion just getting barstoolers through the turnstiles.

Instant international success in rugby in an era when the sport had only just become professional only cost a tiny fraction of what it would in football.

Far better not to compete with the EPL on their own terms, trying to be "the greatest league in the world", we'd be better off spending a few million a season on advertising the LOI as a unique product, which belongs to the fans and people of the local area. It works to get people on terraces for the GAA, no reason it shouldn't work to some degree in the LOI. And it would cost a lot less than £1.8 billion.




Edit: As for the all-Ireland league (and I know ger121's comment was tongue-in-cheek), it's not a panacaea, and would have the exact same problems as two separate leagues. The only situation in which I could see myself getting fully behind the idea would be if there was a firm plan and committment from the FAI and the clubs towards a massive promotion and "relaunch" of the league. In that situation, the creation of an all-Ireland league could be a great hook and promotional tool, but not much more.

[Spudulika]

Peadar, you're right about the instant success, but it costs a heck of a lot less than that. Europa League group stages are within reach, CL can be done with a solid full time team. But it'll take a very good coach and a team consisting of only 4-5 Irish/British players, the rest need to be from around the world. Irish clubs are reluctant to bring in higher quality players for a couple of reasons - 1. would they be tough enough for a wet Friday night in Tolka, 2. it costs the same to get in an inferior local player - but you know what he's capable of. Most importantly, there is very little in the way of youth systems in any club to have the requisite back up and catchment to take advantage of the exposure and financial windfall.

[Eminence Grise]

And on top of those telephone numbers, don't forget the 500,000 million or so needed to build four stadia (land, construction, consultants, nice padded chairs facing the big screens in the corporate boxes....)

Like Spud says, Peadar, you don't need that much money to break into Europe (not that that's ever stopped LoI clubs from living the impossible dream...) But, if you have that kind of money to throw around, you'd get a much better return by spending €10-15m on each club's ground. You'd get a few tidy all-seated grounds for that, and you'd still have change to invest in training facilities and revenue generating projects. Now, where did I put Ajai Chopra's phone number...?

If you've only got a couple of million in the slush fund, then promoting the league on its own merits is, as you say, the best thing to do. Heck, you can get very good coverage using creativity and a good public relations campaign, which would cost a fraction of a marketing and advertising campaign. At the moment, there's too little promotion at the top level, and the clubs can't do anything other than promote themselves within the obvious limitation of their expertise and resources.

[peadar1987]

Obviously this is just an opinion, but I don't think the Europa League group stages would cut it for the committed barstooler. It would have to be Champions League, and it would have to be a solid showing in the group stages, and it would have to be regular. Until the side got established, it would have to rely on getting people through the gates for big games in the CL, and gradually trying to convince them to come back for games against Kilmarnock, or Barry Town. A season without CL would be a disaster for such a model of club.

[Spudulika]

I think concentrating on the barstooler is wrong. The target area is families, young females and males. The EL will bring enough glamour for them, they're not expecting miracles from their day out, only a good time, the barstooler will always moan and find somewhere else to go. Lowest hanging fruit is what's needed - fans of other sports, young unattached family groups. Get them in and keep them in.

[peadar1987]

I think concentrating on the barstooler is wrong. The target area is families, young females and males. The EL will bring enough glamour for them, they're not expecting miracles from their day out, only a good time, the barstooler will always moan and find somewhere else to go. Lowest hanging fruit is what's needed - fans of other sports, young unattached family groups. Get them in and keep them in.

Good point. They shouldn't be ignored, because there are, unfortunately, a lot of them out there, but it would be daft putting all the LOI's eggs on the one barstool. The clubs should be focusing on attracting the groups you mentioned, any barstooler who wouldn't be attracted by the same sorts of things as them might eventually be attracted by the success increased crowds and advertising revenue would bring.

[nigel-harps1954]

Barstoolers are a lost cause. You need to build a future fanbase around the kids. Get them into LOI football good and early. You can convince the parents to bring them if the match day atmosphere is suitable, if grounds are family friendly. Get the kids in and they'll soon be glued to whats happening. It's the live football atmosphere that gets them.

[Spudulika]

Connect with kids early, you have them for life. The GAA are past masters on this, rugby followed their lead. Football clubs are, in all fairness, doing more to be involved with the community, consistent work like this means long term growth and an affinity with the club.

[GenerationXI]

The FAI need to push that the future of Irish football, the future premier league stars, the future International stars are being developed right here in Ireland. If the top talent is kept here for as long as possible I have no doubt the standard in the league will keep rising and the teams may even start getting the right money for their talent that they deserve.

Couln't agree more. Also, whatever about the Premier League/Championship, which could never hope to compete with, if you look at the volume of Irish Players playing professionally further down the English Tiers, you can't help but thinking we'd have a great league if they all stayed at home and made the move the way Keith Fahy, McClean, Kevin Doyle etc. did.


Jof, this was proposed by one former Cork City boss, a centralised contract system (not unlike the MLS) where players would be loaned to clubs and so that the FAI would protect and monitor the development of players under it's jurisdiction. It makes perfect sense for sport, society and business, so it was shot down by a combo of LOI, Junior and Schoolboy clubs as they all want their own little fiefdoms.

Sounds like a sensible idea, but to me there is a massive gulf between what an Irish Club and UK Club can offer a 16 year old in terms of facilities and development. How may 16/17 year-olds actually get to play in LOI first teams? Let's say I'm Bristol and I sign a 16-year-old from Cork and then I have to watch him try to develop in a set-up I don't consider to be as good as mine. It could be a deterrent. Equally, It's a tricky situation for a young man and his family to be in and sometimes I guess you just have to chase the dream. It's one thing to be noticed by one UK club when you're playing in Ireland, it's another when you're over in the UK playing and constantly coming into contact with other reserve team managers, their coaches and staff. It's a difficult question. If you compel someone to stay here, you have to accept you're asking them to stay in a system that's second rate and pass up on the opportunity to go to a club with a proper academy, full-time training etc.

It must be nearly time to dust of the All Ireland League thread as well :waiting:

It's always been the answer to all of our problems. :p

[GenerationXI]

Also, in response to the OP, LOL. You can invent your FCs Munster, Leinster, Connacht and Ulster and I'll still be at LOI games because they're not my teams. But, I, like the others on here, presume you're taking the pee. ;)

[Sonny]

I, for one, welcome our new provincial overlords!

[sparky12345678]

These ideas come up again and again and there are some merits in aspects of them;
1. I like the idea of an All Ireland League, but obv the northerners; some sort of compromise needed
2. If we were starting from scratch regional clubs could be an idea BUT people are naturally very loyal to their clubs; However, there are 2 many clubs in Dublin (Galway had three and look what happened), and thats coming from a Sporting Fingal Fan. I would suggest 1 strong northside - 1 strong southside clubs (amalgmations of clubs are relatively common in the history of football). Bray and UCD somehow unite... Dno what to do with Louth... Galway Cork Derry and Sligo all hav a strong base but what next? how do Tralee expect to build any sort of fanbase? or Tipperary? or any rural areas??
Also comparing to Rugby is bad idea because the provinces play in the Celtic league which isnt nearly as popular as the Heinkein Cup (ie Champions league).
Although I think a Celtic League of football could also be interesting; Wales, N Ireland, Ireland and Scotland (minus Celtic and Rangers, although these days sure whats the difference) playing together could be great fun but is it viable?

As has been mentioned the only really longterm solution is the GAA model... Which means building strong underage clubs and filter clubs which means an amalgamation of the various self serving powerhungry football organisations (which is probably the biggest challenge) into one having a proper pyramid structure with junior clubs feeding senior ones etc...

[Guinney]

Dno what to do with Louth...

Louth Wanderers was been talked about for a few years, were Dundalk and Drogheda unite. Thankfully this will never happen.

[peadar1987]

I don't think Dublin particularly needs any more clubs, but two southside and two northside clubs should be sustainable. I know I haven't included UCD, but they're a bit of an anomaly, with their prospective fanbase far less tied to geography than the other two.

Bray aren't a Dublin club, we're the sole representative of Ireland's largest town, dont'cha know!

As for the rest, with no disrespect to Longford, if they can sustain a club, anyone can, let alone a county with a population as large as Kerry's

[BonnieShels]

I don't think Dublin particularly needs any more clubs, but two southside and two northside clubs should be sustainable. I know I haven't included UCD, but they're a bit of an anomaly, with their prospective fanbase far less tied to geography than the other two.

Bray aren't a Dublin club, we're the sole representative of Ireland's largest town, dont'cha know!

As for the rest, with no disrespect to Longford, if they can sustain a club, anyone can, let alone a county with a population as large as Kerry's

Drogheda and Dundalk are bigger. Swords isn't much behind Bray.

Are you nicking Cois Cairn for stats?

[peadar1987]

Drogheda and Dundalk are bigger. Swords isn't much behind Bray.

Are you nicking Cois Cairn for stats?

That's what I get for working off hearsay. I was told ages ago that all the settlements larger than Bray were cities, but it looks like Drogheda, Dundalk, and Swords are all bigger, and still classed as towns.

Interestingly, the actual order of the towns from the 2006 census is:

Dublin
Cork
Galway
Limerick
Waterford
Drogheda
Dundalk
Swords
Bray
Tralee
Sligo
Ennis
Naas
Celbridge
Navan
Newbridge
Clonmel
Leixlip
Malahide
Carlow
Kilkenny

and so on

Tralee actually has more than twice the population of, say, Athlone, and I didn't even go far enough down the list to find Monaghan or Ballybofey.

[Jofspring]

Dublin FC
Cork FC
Galway FC
Limerick FC
Waterford FC
Drogheda FC
Dundalk FC
Swords FC
Bray FC
Tralee FC
Sligo FC
Ennis FC
Naas FC
Celbridge FC
Navan FC
Newbridge FC
Clonmel FC
Leixlip FC
Malahide FC
Carlow FC
Kilkenny FC.

Now there's all The LOI's problems solved. A team in all the highest populated towns. Ye're all welcome.