Ireland: 2002 vs. 2012?

[Supreme feet]

The last time we played in a major tournament in Japan and Korea in 2002, we drew with Germany and Spain, outplaying both sides for long periods in those games, making our way to within a shoot-out of the top eight in world football. This was achieved despite the small matter of a disagreement in the training camp, which threatened to slightly destabilise the collective effort. :bashful: I was just thinking - how does this summer's likely starting line-up compare to the class of 2002?

1: Given vs. Given. Evens.

2: Finnan vs. O'Shea. Adv. 2002.

3. Harte vs. Ward. Evens. Harte wins out on set pieces and passing, Ward is quicker and a better tackler. Both are suspect defensively.

4: Staunton vs. Dunne. Adv. 2012. Comparing the 'senior partners' of both defences, Dunne is miles ahead of Staunton, who I feel was fortunate to get in ahead of Cunningham for the tournament.

5: Breen vs. St. Ledger. Evens. Breen had more experience at the top level than Sledge, who still hasnt played a first-tier game at club level. However, St. Ledger hasn't dropped as many clangers in a green shirt as Breen had before that World Cup.

6/8: Holland/Kinsella vs Whelan/Andrews. All four players cut from the same cloth - all late developers, all tidy enough, but all quite limited. Adv. 2002, but there were many games before and after 2002 when the Holland/Kinsella partnership looked like our current pair - two Robins with no Batman.

7: Gary Kelly vs. Damien Duff. Adv. 2012. Duff may be aging, but he offers much more in the final third than an out-of-position Kelly ever did.

11: Kevn Kilbane vs. Aiden McGeady. Adv. 2012. Both players known for giving the ball away repeatedly, but McGeady has more about him.

9: Damien Duff vs. Shane Long/Kevin Doyle/Jon Walters. Adv. 2012. Duff has never been a striker, and his best form in that World Cup came when he moved out to the wing.

10: Robbie Keane vs. Robbie Keane. Evens. May have lost a little pace, but he's a bit more clever now.


Absentees due to general, varying degrees of Corkonian insanity: Roy Keane vs. Stephen Ireland. Adv. 2002. A world-class player, one of the best in the world in his position, at the height of his power, who actually came back to play for Ireland - despite medical advice - a few years later... versus a luxury player who plays the odd game for Villa, and plays well when he could be bothered.

Thoughts?

[SkStu]

nice thread.

1 - adv 2002.

10 - adv 2012.

in my opinion!!

[the bear]

we certainly have a better squad now. exciting times now for irish football with lots of prospects coming through. cant wait for the summer

[Stuttgart88]

Manager 2002 v Manager 2012? adv 2012

In terms of units:

Defence - adv 2012 - marginally
Midfield - adv 2002, but if you disaggregate central midfield from wide midfield CM 2002 was better, WM 2012 is better
Attack - adv 2012
Bench - adv 2012, bar Quinn
Cork nutcases - adv 2002
Balanced team as a whole - adv 2002
Regular top flight starters at club level - 2012, though 4 months ago I mightn't have thought so

Of the 2002 starters only Finnan, Kinsella and Holland would get in ahead of the current incumbent. Harte maybe. Cunningham was only fit to start against Spain in 2002. I think he'd be a starter alongside Dunne today.

[Supreme feet]

Cunningham was only fit to start against Spain in 2002.

Are you sure about that Stutts? I know Cunningham was injured for most of the qualifying campaign, and Staunton got in ahead of him for the Portugal home game. I think McCarthy made his mind up during the warm-up game against Nigeria, when Cunningham slipped up and allowed Aghahowa through to score. I think McCarthy decided then to stick with Staunton, despite Cunningham being a far superior CB, as he showed in the following years. I don't think Cunningham was injured during the World Cup, just out of favour.

[elroy]

Interesting post. When you put them side by side like that, the 2012 team does reflect well. I think the CM combination of 2002 was better than what we have now. Out of interest, what were the clangers that Breen did in the green jersey that you refer to? I would say Harte is superior to Ward, certainly in the qualifying for 2002 he was excellent, joint top scorer I think and played every single min of the campaign. Unfortunately he had a very poor WC and never really recovered in the green after that.

[Crosby87]

Good thread. What about Mick vs Trap?

[French Toasht]

I would much prefer have the 2002 Given and Robbie Keane. I don't know how anyone could argue any different. Keane plays in the bloody MLS these days for a reason.

Back then our best players were in their prime, nowadays our best players will either retire in July or play just one more campaign.

Its too simplistic to compare position for position. Duff was at the height of his career in 2002 and was playing amazing football for Blackburn which resulted in him signing for Chelsea. Finnan and Carr were the two best right backs in the EPL. In Keane/Holland/Kinsella we had three EPL captains in the centre. In 2002, I always felt that our only weakness was Harte and purely defensively, going forward and on set pieces he was excellent. Full backs under Trap these days get a nose bleed if they venture out of their own half.

I thought we were far more convincing in qualification in 2002. With players like Dunne, Cunningham, Quinn, Stephen Reid etc on the bench, that would suggest to me the 2002 team was stronger.

[ArdeeBhoy]

2002 by some margin.

This squad could still lose every group game, unlikely, but possible.

2002 didn't.

[IsMiseSean]

2002 by some margin.

This squad could still lose every group game, unlikely, but possible.

2002 didn't.

This is a tougher group than 2002. Spain, Croatia and Italy are all capable of winning the tournament or making the final.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Croatia & Italy won't even get to the Final, let alone win it, IMO.

[Stuttgart88]

Fair point Supreme feet, you're probably right.

The 2012 group is by far a tougher group than the 2002 group. Saudia Arabia FFS. Cameroon totally failed to deliver on reputation and Germany were a workmanlike team that did what Germany do, but were not a patch on this Spain XI.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought we were far more convincing in qualification in 2002. True, but the team that played in the finals was very much different to the one that racked up 24 (?) points in qualifying - even if only one name on the teamsheet was different!

[IsMiseSean]

Croatia & Italy won't even get to the Final, let alone win it, IMO.

I'm sure a lot of people said the same about Greece. Time will tell...

[amaccann]

Reading some of the names mentioned in the 2002 team has just made me feel reallly old. Gary Kelly? Steve Staunton as player? Fuuuuuuuuc ...

:(

[bennocelt]

I thought Staunton hadn't a bad world cup tbh. Him n Quinn surprised a few, the golden oldies

[Stuttgart88]

Staunton & Breen both played really well I think.

We need a few of our current Breens (i.e., the unheralded ones we all have some worries about) to play to that kind of level. We can't afford our CMs to be playing at anything below their very best.

[SkStu]

2002 by some margin.

This squad could still lose every group game, unlikely, but possible.

2002 didn't.

you cant compare the groups - which you are doing - but you can compare the squads. The 2012 squad is streets ahead of the 2002 squad but may not progress as far. The Euros is a waaaaaay tougher competition to do well in. The standard is overall way higher than the WC.

[SwanVsDalton]

Staunton & Breen both played really well I think.

We need a few of our current Breens (i.e., the unheralded ones we all have some worries about) to play to that kind of level. We can't afford our CMs to be playing at anything below their very best.

Yeah Staunton did really well, particularly required after Keane departed. Proved a valuable starter as I recall.

2002 was the better side I reckon but 2012 probably has the better personnel, definitely better strength in depth. Could yet prove to be the better team.

[ArdeeBhoy]

you cant compare the groups - which you are doing - but you can compare the squads. The 2012 squad is streets ahead of the 2002 squad but may not progress as far. The Euros is a waaaaaay tougher competition to do well in. The standard is overall way higher than the WC.

No way. Even though one couldn't be bothered, the two Keanes, Given & Duff were all at their peak then, now the ones left are all on their last hurrah. Only Dunne, on the evidence of Moscow where he was superb, and McClean if he gets in the squad are tangibly better
.
You can only play what you're up against;Cameroon were as good as the Croats now, Germany then are not quite up to a sublime Spain whilst the only major difference is the Saudis and Italy.
The latter were very poor last June (An '02 Saudi team would have given them a game.), but admit they won't be as bad surely this year?

And the Euros tougher than the WC,after the Quarters, don't make me laugh....

[paul_oshea]

Keane is playing in the MLS for a reason?!

what one is that that he scored 3 in 4 games for villa and set up 2 goals?

[SkStu]

No way. Even though one couldn't be bothered, the two Keanes, Given & Duff were all at their peak then, now the ones left are all on their last hurrah. Only Dunne, on the evidence of Moscow where he was superb, and McClean if he gets in the squad are tangibly better

erm, Keane wasnt in the 2002 squad. Given is largely the same though was slightly better in 02. I think Duff is more or less the same, maybe slower but smarter. Keane has developed as a player and i prefer the Keane of today as a striker. Our back line is stronger, our wide players are better and our strike options are better, deeper and more sophisticated. In fact, for a cynic like me, i have to say the mid to long term future of the Irish football team has never been better in my opinion.


You can only play what you're up against;Cameroon were as good as the Croats now, Germany then are not quite up to a sublime Spain whilst the only major difference is the Saudis and Italy.
The latter were very poor last June (An '02 Saudi team would have given them a game.), but admit they won't be as bad surely this year?

Im not sure what your point is here, i can only assume you are agreeing that the group in the Euros is far tougher than the group we had in WC02. "An '02 Saudi team would have given them a game"? That Saudi team lost 8-0 to Germany. Jaysis. Are you real?


And the Euros tougher than the WC,after the Quarters, don't make me laugh....

Not what i said. Its tougher to do well in the Euros than the WC. Doing well for us is progress past round 1. We've done it 3 times in the WC and never in the Euros. And the quality of team is far higher in the Euros, that is not even up for debate.

[Stuttgart88]

I think it's hard to argue that the group stage in a European championship isn't harder than in a WC. I'd say the last 8 in a WC is better quality, enhanced by the typical presence of Brazil, Argentina and a team like Mexico.

[ArdeeBhoy]

erm, Keane wasnt in the 2002 squad. Given is largely the same though was slightly better in 02. I think Duff is more or less the same, maybe slower but smarter. Keane has developed as a player and i prefer the Keane of today as a striker. Our back line is stronger, our wide players are better and our strike options are better, deeper and more sophisticated. In fact, for a cynic like me, i have to say the mid to long term future of the Irish football team has never been better in my opinion.

You've contradicted yourself there. Not to mention being factually incorrect.

Im not sure what your point is here, i can only assume you are agreeing that the group in the Euros is far tougher than the group we had in WC02. "An '02 Saudi team would have given them a game"? That Saudi team lost 8-0 to Germany.
Except Ireland weren't and aren't ever going to be Germany. Am comparing our results v.Italy last summer and v.Saudis in '02. A difference of one goal.

Though I do accept the quality of the teams participating in Euro 2012 is more even than WC 2002.

[French Toasht]

Keane is playing in the MLS for a reason?!

what one is that that he scored 3 in 4 games for villa and set up 2 goals?

Well he's hardly playing for an MLS club because he's at the peak of his career now is he? I think the fact that he has played in two diddy leagues in Scotland and the US in recent seasons is pretty indicative of the direction his career has gone of late. Fair enough he has played well for Villa in his four games, but lets see that for what it is, four games. Lets not herald it as the second coming of Christ just yet.

Don't get me wrong I am Keane's biggest advocate and think he has always delivered for Ireland even when not playing particularly well at club level but to suggest you'd pick a 2012 Robbie Keane over a 2002 Robbie Keane is nothing short of ludicrous.

[Supreme feet]

Well he's hardly playing for an MLS club because he's at the peak of his career now is he? ...to suggest you'd pick a 2012 Robbie Keane over a 2002 Robbie Keane is nothing short of ludicrous.

I'd be slightly more inclined towards the 2002 Keane - based solely on his WC and Spurs form - but it's easy to forget how hot-and-cold he was back then for Ireland. Keane scored seven goals in 12 games in our 2012 qualifying campaign, following from his six in twelve in the 2010 qualifiers. He scored two from nine in the 2002 qualifiers (including a seven-game goal drought), and two from six in the Euro 2004 campaign. The latter, I would argue, was also his most ineffective campaign for us in his general play. In 2001/2, Keane scored 3 goals in 25 appearances for Leeds - a figure he's already equalled in four games for Villa.

I don't think it's necessarily ludicrous to suggest that Keane has added more consistency and intelligence to his game over the years. His goal record for Ireland suggests that he's actually improved with age. His game has never been about pace; he hasn't needed to adapt or change his game like, say, Duff, as he's aged. The move to the MLS isn't a true reflection of Keane's current ability or value, more a lifestyle/wife-appeasing choice. He's still well capable of playing and scoring regularly in the EPL, which he is currently reasserting after being messed around at Liverpool and Spurs over four difficult years.

[nigel-harps1954]

The key point I believe is that the 2002 squad had more leaders in the team.

There isn't much difference football wise in the teams. I think the 2002 team edge it though. If the right squad and right starting team were chosen though, 2012 would be miles ahead. Drop a few dead ends and bring in a few players more deserving of playing at the top.

[pineapple stu]

Except Ireland weren't and aren't ever going to be Germany. Am comparing our results v.Italy last summer and v.Saudis in '02. A difference of one goal.
So on that basis, you reckon Saudi Arabia would give Italy a game? Are you for real?

UCD beat Drogheda three times last season, and Drogheda nearly beat Dinamo Kiev in 2005. We'd give Kiev a game by your logic.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Are you for real? Ireland beat the Saudis by one more goal, that's all.They can only beat who they play?

What has a game 6 years ago to do with anything?
Another expensive university education gone to waste?

[theworm2345]

Except Ireland weren't and aren't ever going to be Germany.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHREV8xmgV4

[ArdeeBhoy]

Nice reminder, but think I'll settle for their international record over ours, Danke...

[pineapple stu]

And yet elsewhere you'll make comparisons based on two matches, nine years apart, one of which was a friendly?

Consistency, eh?