Rugby 2012

[SwanVsDalton]

Six Nations squad announcement. (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/declan-kidney-leaves-luke-fitzgerald-out-of-six-nations-squad-2993311.html)

Pretty disappointing to see the likes of Cullen, Wallace and Jennings kicking about there. Have a feeling Deccie's eyeing a steady campaign to keep himself in with a shout for the Lions, doesn't want to tear up the squad just yet.

[Charlie Darwin]

How come? Jennings is our only specialist 7, Cullen is as good as ever (and probably our back-up captain) and Wallace has had a good season, injuries aside. Wallace is a terrific player - he's just made of glass.

[Macy]

Six Nations squad announcement. (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/declan-kidney-leaves-luke-fitzgerald-out-of-six-nations-squad-2993311.html)

Pretty disappointing to see the likes of Cullen, Wallace and Jennings kicking about there. Have a feeling Deccie's eyeing a steady campaign to keep himself in with a shout for the Lions, doesn't want to tear up the squad just yet.
I'd agree it's a conservative squad. However, my only issue with those 3 is what's the point if he's never going to play them? He might as well blood young players as bench warmers. Cullen in particular has been extremely hard done by imo - the second row should've been Cullen and O'Connell for the last 2 years at least. Mind you, seems Cullen's even had enough, given the timing of his operation.

Have to say as well, O'Sullivan would've got crucified for annoucing such a squad. But St. Deccie can do no wrong.

[BonnieShels]

Happy that Leamy isn't there but very disappointed overall.

[Macy]

Happy that Leamy isn't there but very disappointed overall.
He's injured, so isn't available.

[BonnieShels]

He's injured, so isn't available.

And?

He's still not there! It's a winner for me!

[Macy]

And?
So it isn't because he was dropped - he'd be there if he wasn't injured.

[BonnieShels]

I know. MY joy stems from is absence. The reasoning behind it is irrelevant.

[mypost]

Personally I would have been appalled if France won the World Cup purely based on the fact that they treated their group with such disrespect, and their manager is an egomaniacal buffoon. Yet, strangely I wanted them to win on Sunday, and felt they could have.

The best team won the World Cup. For me, it was the most disappointing tournament of them all, and I've seen every one of them. There wasn't one game of high quality, and boy were there some real stinkers.

That World Cup was a nailed on home win before the teams began qualifying. Very few teams ever beat New Zealand on their own patch, and it certainly wasn't going to happen in a World Cup.

Ireland got a mixed fixture list for the 6N tournament. Another trip to France on Valentines weekend, and end with a daunting trip to London. On the plus side, the first game at home, and it's not against the haha whipping team. That's the third game, not the first for a change.

[Charlie Darwin]

Predictable enough team. Only tight calls were Earls/McFadden and O'Callaghan/Ryan.

Team: R Kearney, Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Ross, O'Call, O'Conn, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip
Subs: Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, McFadden

[Mr A]

This thread is sooooooo last year.

[BonnieShels]

Predictable enough team. Only tight calls were Earls/McFadden and O'Callaghan/Ryan.

Team: R Kearney, Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Ross, O'Call, O'Conn, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip
Subs: Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Reddan, O'Gara, McFadden

The half-back pairings are a joke. Why he isn't using Reddan's fast ball with his provincial out-half against Wales I don't know.

[Real ale Madrid]

The half-back pairings are a joke. Why he isn't using Reddan's fast ball with his provincial out-half against Wales I don't know.

Hardly a joke - its a pretty close call whichever way you look at it.

Good team in general - don't fancy Earls in the centre from a defensive point of view. Donnacha Ryan is very unlucky not to be starting but no doubt he will get plenty of game time.

If our scrum can continue in the same vein as the world cup we have every chance of winning the game.

[BonnieShels]

Maybe a joke is a bit harsh but surely keeping the provincial pairings together is the way to go? It's most like Deccie tries to be democratic with his decisions. Hence DOC and Leamy always ended up in the squad.

[Macy]

I'm not convinced by Earls in the centre, but I don't mind that one so much to see how it goes. After that a very conservative selection. I don't think it should necessarily be provincial half back pairings (drove me nuts that Stringer - Sexton never got a proper chance), but hard to see the plan with picking Murray and Sexton. Playing Sexton surely means we want fast ball? It smacks a bit of just trying to pick our best backs and fit them in to the game plan rather than the other way around, but I guess time will tell!

[Real ale Madrid]

but hard to see the plan with picking Murray and Sexton. Playing Sexton surely means we want fast ball? It smacks a bit of just trying to pick our best backs and fit them in to the game plan rather than the other way around, but I guess time will tell!

I was always of the opinion that quick ball is determined by the superiority of the forwards rather than the velocity of the pass from the scrum half - If our pack do a good job, Sexton will get plenty of opportunities to attack. Otherwise, on the back foot, he will struggle. Murray isn't the fastest passer of the ball in the world but Reddan is hardly Stringer-esque when zipping it out. (Granted he is better than Murray at this particular skill). I'd love to see Murray/Sexton develop a consistent relationship, as going forward, these are the likeliest pairing in the next 3-5 years.

[Macy]

I'd love to see Murray/Sexton develop a consistent relationship, as going forward, these are the likeliest pairing in the next 3-5 years.
I don't have a problem if that's the logic, but then why start O'Callaghan in the second row ahead of Ryan? It just doesn't follow through to the rest of the team - Earls is the only other "one for the future" selection and that was forced.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Kidney's just decided Murray is his man. It's not like Leinster where he'll change SHs to suit the opposition, although I think for this particular game Murray's extra physicality will be needed to match Phillips.

[Mr A]

Earls out (pulls out as his daughter is unwell), McFadden in http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0203/earlsk.html

[shakermaker1982]

Thoughts on yesterday?

I'm still raging.

[Schumi]

I was always of the opinion that quick ball is determined by the superiority of the forwards rather than the velocity of the pass from the scrum half

My main frustration with Murray is that he ends up at the bottom of too many rucks after trying to run through gaps that aren't really there. It's hard to get consistently quick ball when forwards are passing the ball from a third of the rucks.

[BonnieShels]

Thoughts on yesterday?

I'm still raging.

Same. I saw DK's pic on RTÉ today and got angry.

[Real ale Madrid]

My main frustration with Murray is that he ends up at the bottom of too many rucks after trying to run through gaps that aren't really there. It's hard to get consistently quick ball when forwards are passing the ball from a third of the rucks.

Thats probably a fair observation, but given his lack of games at international level - I think decision making is something he will get better at. No doubt he was overshadowed by his opposite number on Sunday but going forward I thought he was great - and made some good breaks (few bad as well).

Our problem Sunday was not getting on top of them physically - Wales in fact got parity with us at scrumtime and at the breakdown and in fact held on to the ball much better,while we more often than not kicked the ball away - sometimes fairly aimlessly. It is a source of frustration that we seem to have the players capable of winning these matches but we are regualarly out-thought by our opponents.

My main bone of contension is with the bitterness and gnarlyness that seems to disappear whenever our backs don't seem to be against the wall. This Welsh team hammered us in October and our lads should have been ripping out of the jersey's to get at them. What happens then is almost insipid. I mean would any of the provinces playing at home have given up 2 scores and the match in the last few minutes of a big game ?

Our lack of a seven is killing us as well -stating the obvious but as regards our back row, whatever we gain in ball carriers we lose when it comes to the breakdown when we don't have the ball.

[OwlsFan]

Not a big rugby fan but those last few minutes in the Leinster game today were amazing. A finger nail from properly placing the ball behind the line and they were out and being able to withstand that pressure.. O'Driscoll is such a class player

[Macy]

Two teams in the final, after 3 in the quarters. Says an awful lot about the national team management imo.

[Stuttgart88]

Thriller of a game alright.

I'm not sure what Macy's point is. Is it that if our clubs can be so dominant how come the national team fails to punch its weight? It's a fair question.

[Macy]

I'm not sure what Macy's point is. Is it that if our clubs can be so dominant how come the national team fails to punch its weight? It's a fair question.
Pretty much. But not only in terms of performance, but in terms of team and especially squad make up. You look at the performances of Ulster and bang your head against the wall to be honest - more chance of getting picked being a bench player for Munster than being a starter for Ulster.

[Stuttgart88]

I gather there's a similar set of criticisms aimed at Kidney than are often aimed at Trap. Overly dogmatic approach to tactics, unimaginative selections etc.

[Macy]

On que, the IRFU (presumably at the behest of the management) have just extended Gordon Darcy's central contract for another 2 years. Whilst he's playing well for Leinster, he hasn't played that well for Ireland for a few years, and even at Leinster will be coming under increasing pressure. So the last few months, Leamy, O'Callaghan and Darcy have all had central contracts renewed while they either aren't provincial starters now (in the case of the munster lads) or can't be considered guaranteed staters for the next 2 years. Meanwhile, they're peeing around a mid 20's player, albeit recovering from a poor/ injury hit spell, who's already toured with the lions?

It's worse than Trap, as we know that many that Kidney overlooks are playing at a very high level, consistently.

[drummerboy]

Not that well up on these things, but will Fitzgerald have to play for an Irish province to be considered for the International team. I know Murphy plays for Leicester and is still around the squad

[Charlie Darwin]

No, he doesn't have to play for an Irish province to be considered for selection, same as Tommy Bowe and Geordan Murphy. Fitzgerald doesn't want to leave though, it's just a case of his agent and the IRFU coming to an agreement. I'm glad D'Arcy has signed back up, I've always felt he gets harshly criticised. I'd bet he's taken a wage cut since his last contract.

[Mr A]

From an Ireland perspective, there was much to be encouraged by this weekend- especially from Ulster. An all-Irish front row laying waste to their opposition in a European cup semi final has to be good, and Jackson and Gilroy look like great prospects and will surely benefit from their experiences this year. Cave looks a decent prospect as well.

Leinster should really win it now, they're a superb side. Hard to see where Ulster can beat them, but you never know.

[shakermaker1982]

1 of the best games of rugby I've ever seen. Some of the hits were frightening.

[Macy]

Not that well up on these things, but will Fitzgerald have to play for an Irish province to be considered for the International team. I know Murphy plays for Leicester and is still around the squad
He doesn't have to, but experience suggests it's a significant advantage, with examples of players dropping totally off the international radar when they've moved abroad. Murphy would have many more caps if he'd been Irish based imo.

And btw I wouldn't suggest that Darcy leave Leinster, just question the central contract, and it's length. The Fitzgerald situation also highlights another thing - Leinster can't negotiate directly whilst the IRFU is involved, so even though they want to keep him, at the moment they can't (officially) get involved or make their own offer.

[Stuttgart88]

Does anyone know how the economics of provincial rugby work?

I'd like to get a handle on how this compares to England, Wales and France (I'm ignoring Scotland and Italy!). I know for example that the RFU distributes £110m to its clubs annually, so English clubs get a sizeable central subsidy too. Do they have also have centrally contracted players?

So, in Ireland (these are mainly questions rather than statements):

- Central contracts for X number of players. This presumbaly then frees up revenue generated directly by the province from commercial income to be spent on high quality imports or local players not centrally contracted.
- Is an additional portion of national team revenue distributed to provinces?
- No promotion / relegation - this gives provinces some breathing space and allows for financial planning
- Automatic qualification for Europe (for top 2 or 3 provinces anyway?) - this means the clubs can budget for European income, whereas English clubs have to see this as a commercial risk (a la football)
- This potentially polarises strength between European regulars and European aspirants and European no hopers.
- Are there wage caps in Ireland?
- Irish players get a tax break if they spend their whole careers in Ireland I think
- How are H-Cup revenues allocated?
- How does H-Cup revenue compare to Amlin Cup?
- How does Rabobank league revenue compare to EPL revenue, and how is is distributed?
- Are AIL clubs compensated for developing players for the provincial sides?
- Are AIL clubs happy with the current professional set up?
- How do the provincial catchment areas compare to England, Wales and France, in terms of both potential talent pools and supporter base (and hence potential attendances)?
- What is the key difference explaining Ireland's success and Wales' provincial "failure" despite the playing talent pool being broadly comparable (Wales are better based on results at national level though I suspect there's a degree of Gatland v Kidney explaining this)? I suspect the answer lies in national association / franchise relationship (central contracts etc.).

[Macy]

I'll attempt to answer some...

- England doesn't have a central contract system (niether do Wales or France). In England, there's an elite squad, with clubs compensated for releasing players to the national team.
- I don't think the idea of central contracts is to free up provincial money - it's to give central control over the players in terms of release and game management.
- The points about automatic, guaranteed, qualification for europe and no promotion or relegation is certainly the stock excuses used by English clubs when they're compared to the Provinces. I'm not sure how it stacks up though really - the 3 automatic irish qualifiers would qualify every year anyway if the places were distributed to the rabo rather than countries, and connacht would this year as well.
- The tax break is best 10 years over their career, so there is scope for players to go and come back. I'm not sure how, or if, it applies to Ulster players.
- afaik the IRFU sets the budgets. So while there isn't a wage cap, my understanding is that if anything the provinces work with less budget than the english wage cap, but I'm not sure whether that includes centrally contracted players.
- The money is better from the English Premiership, than the Rabo.
- HEC is where the money is at, rather than the Amlin. And in many ways the Amlin as a way into the HEC is the main prize.
- Player and supporter pool is bigger in England and France.
- Most players are in the academy system from 15 or 16. The main area of contention in Leinster is between the Leinster Academy and the Rugby Schools. The academy wants to start player management and development at that stage, whereas the schools priority is the schools cup. I think this could see players coming from the none traditional schools having some advantage.
- AIL clubs have definitely lost out. There's been a lot more talk of releasing more players back to clubs from provinces recently actually.
- Although Wales have a provincial structure now, they each independent rather than under the WRFU - they're more like franchises really. There's no central contracts. I don't know enough, but the talk is that the welsh fans and players have never really brought into the provinces, and it's all about the national team. The Irish provinces are obviously traditional both geographically and in rugby terms, even if they're effectively clubs now. (I actually think there's a lesson in Welsh rugby for those that promote a franchise system for domestic football here). The Irish National Team Management have far more access and control than their welsh equivalents over the players, and should actually have the advantage!

[Schumi]

- How are H-Cup revenues allocated?Heineken Cup money is paid to the IRFU and that goes towards the money that they give to the provinces. Provinces keep the gate money from their group games and home quarter finals.


- How do the provincial catchment areas compare to England, Wales and France, in terms of both potential talent pools and supporter base (and hence potential attendances)?Irish provinces would have a population bases of the same order as big English and French teams. For example Leicestershire has a population of about 1 million, Northamptonshire about 700k, Auvergne (Clermont) 1.3 million, Midi Pyrenees (Toulouse) 2.3 million. Leinster has 2.5 million, Ulster 2.1 million (which surprised me!), Munster just over 1 million and Connacht just over half a million. Leinster's population would include plenty who support Munster, both immigrants and Lunsters so the gap wouldn't be as big as it would appear.

In terms of player numbers, England are miles ahead of any other country in the world. Ireland has half as many players as France but spread over only 4 teams compared to 14 in France (more if you include the pro second division). Wales would have less again.



- The tax break is best 10 years over their career, so there is scope for players to go and come back. I'm not sure how, or if, it applies to Ulster players.It doesn't apply to Ulster players AFAIK as their place of work is in the North.

[Macy]

It doesn't apply to Ulster players AFAIK as their place of work is in the North.
I wasn't sure whether there was ways around it, especially for centrally contracted players who might be paid directly by the union in Dublin, and may have a main place of residence (for example) in Monaghan.

[Schumi]

I wasn't sure whether there was ways around it, especially for centrally contracted players who might be paid directly by the union in Dublin, and may have a main place of residence (for example) in Monaghan.

I don't think so but I could be wrong.

[OwlsFan]

Thriller of a game alright.

I'm not sure what Macy's point is. Is it that if our clubs can be so dominant how come the national team fails to punch its weight? It's a fair question.

Many of the top players in the provincial teams are foreigners. Also there are also only 4 Irish teams (provinces) while in the English/French leagues there are many club teams so the talent is spread. We're not really comparing like with like.

[Macy]

Many of the top players in the provincial teams are foreigners.
Not sure that really stacks up. Only position that excuse can really be pointed to is tight head, and even there the options are coming. Leinster had basically an all irish front row (well it will be come later this year) as did Ulster. More than enough strength and depth to do better than we have been doing in recent seasons - the team has been going backwards since the Grand Slam.

[Schumi]

Many of the top players in the provincial teams are foreigners.

Leinster started 3 foreigners on Sunday, in positions occupied by Paul O'Connell, Rory Best and Tommy Bowe for Ireland (the captain, vice-captain and top try scorer in the 6 nations). There are bigger differences than personnel between Leinster and Ireland.

[Mr A]

Ulster started 4 foreign players, although admittedly they did score all the points! On the other hand Ulster had a good sprinkling of up and coming Irish players. Disappointed to see some of the sniping in the IT letter section today. Have to say I laughed though! http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224315406141

[Charlie Darwin]

I was very impressed that 4 South Africans were able to so comprehensively outplay 15 Scotsmen. You'd think only having 4 men would leave them a little exposed around the ruck but fair play to them, they made all the tackles.

[Stuttgart88]

The letters that preceded the response were interesting. I was at the 1999 final and thought there was a very unpleasant element to the support that traveled down. I found the range of flags quite interesting!

[Real ale Madrid]

Rob Penney has been named as Munster's new head coach.

Penney has led Canterbury to 4 succesive NPC's in New Zealand.

Looks like a great signing.

[Macy]

Rob Penney has been named as Munster's new head coach.

Penney has led Canterbury to 4 succesive NPC's in New Zealand.

Looks like a great signing.
A bit surprising that they went with a forwards coach - personally I think they should've just gone with Foley rather than another forwards specialist. I wonder as well did it hamper their options with the stipulation that Foley had to be kept on as forwards coach, as it can't be ideal to have the annointed successor in the wings? A bit strange the mention of the work permit in the press release, like they aren't that confident of getting it (doubt it'll be an issue, but perhaps should be).

[Real ale Madrid]

A bit surprising that they went with a forwards coach - personally I think they should've just gone with Foley rather than another forwards specialist. I wonder as well did it hamper their options with the stipulation that Foley had to be kept on as forwards coach, as it can't be ideal to have the annointed successor in the wings? A bit strange the mention of the work permit in the press release, like they aren't that confident of getting it (doubt it'll be an issue, but perhaps should be).

Too much emphasis on speciality when talking about the head coach - Penney is the best man from what I believe is available. He has a proven track record of winning rugby with differing styles of play, using the best players available to him, and he's also adept at bringing the best out of young talent which is going to be the No.1 priority over the next few seasons. OK - its important to bring in a good backs coach given that he is slightly forward orientated. The only worry I might have is that Foley may not be Penney's No.1 choice for forwards coach.

[Stuttgart88]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0508/1224315742917.html?via=mr

Gerry Thornley describing some of the economic / league design issues I was asking about above.

[Macy]

I generally, and genuinely, like Thornley and much of that makes sense. However, his banging on about the supposed new policy is getting a bit wearing tbh. It is broke, and the IRFU are attempting to fix it. There is an issue in certain positions. He'd be better arguing that it should go back to a more case by case basis, than trying to argue all is rosey when it obviously isn't in some positions. He's right on the AIL though.

I had heard that the French were making moves on HEC qualification, and the Boards.ie/ talking rugby podcast, but it never got expanded on. You can see their point to a degree - maybe some compromise will be reached on the Rabo (X on league position, but at least one qualifier from each union) - but doesn't really stake up for Leinster, Munster and Ulster as they'd qualify anyway.