Rugby 2012

[Stuttgart88]

Here's an article I saw by Paul Ackford back in January which I have to admit seemed to hold some validity at the time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/9029861/Why-the-premier-English-clubs-are-failing-to-live-up-to-their-billing-in-Europe.html

Here's a more recent piece though which counters that argument.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9236934/Heineken-Cup-2012-English-clubs-need-to-stop-whingeing-about-Irish-success-and-schedules.html

[Macy]

Using the top 8 that McCafferty proposes in the first article, then it would mean Ireland still has 4 qualifiers this year, and the big losers are the italians. Gotta say, I'd assumed that they'd want to cut the number of Rabo places rather than have it on an even footing. It does have it's merits, but it's easy to say from the current position of Irish rugby I suppose. I think the bottom line is that the provinces are just quite good at the moment, whilst the English teams aren't. Obviously the English don't like to admit that!

[Schumi]

It sounds more equitable to have equal numbers of qualifiers from each of the three leagues but the Heineken Cup qualification set-up predates the Pro-12/Celtic League. Welsh and Italian clubs used to qualify from their domestic leagues, Ireland got 3 places for provinces and Scotland got 2 places for their new regional teams. It's only that these teams all play in the same league now (after the Welsh and Italians changed to regional teams as well) that it looks worse.

I wouldn't be entirely against the idea of having the top-7 from England, France and the Pro-12, a place for any country with no qualifiers (Italy or occasionally Scotland really) and some kind of play-offs for the last place or two. The idea that this would improve the quality much is a red herring though. Replacing Connacht, Glasgow and Aironi with Exeter, Wasps and Bayonne this year for example wouldn't make a huge difference. Any change will be to make more money for English and French teams.

[Macy]

The reorganisation of European Competition was discussed on the Talking Rugby (boards.ie) podcast this week (well the first one this week), episode 40. While I thought they were a bit dismissive of the merits of straight qualification from the Celtic league, the big issue inevitably comes down to money. What the English and French are actually about is splitting the money 3 ways rather than 6 - on the basis that the money would be split between the three leagues, rather than the 6 unions. Basically it's a money grab - the English and French want a third of the money each, with the remaining third of the money then split between the Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy. It is kinda being dressed up as it'd increase interest from English and French clubs as they'd have a financial motivation. Could be a very interesting negotiation!

[Stuttgart88]

Could the French and English threaten a break away of sorts, like the ECA has done with UEFA?

And would the Welsh clubs then be tempted across?

I wonder will the whole thing move towards a European league. Only if financially better for all big clubs.

[Macy]

Could the French and English threaten a break away of sorts, like the ECA has done with UEFA?

And would the Welsh clubs then be tempted across?

I wonder will the whole thing move towards a European league. Only if financially better for all big clubs.
Not sure - I'm sure an anglo-french cup will be theatened. The issue/ excuse being given is to increase the attractiveness of the competition to English and French clubs through increased money, as at the moment their domestic leagues take precedence in both prestige and financially. Obviously, they do have some pull as they are the two biggest TV markets too.

They'd stand more chance on the qualification issues (if there was some guarantee of at least one from each celtic league nation) and increased prize money and reduced general income pot to be divided. Obviously even they don't believe they're are better, and/or that the issue is the guaranteed qualification for celtic league teams, given that's not what they're looking for.

[Charlie Darwin]

It seems to be all but confirmed Denis Leamy will join David Wallace, Ian Dowling and Jerry Flannery in retirement. I have never been convinced by him in an Ireland shirt but he had some immense games for Munster. Next year will be a huge one in Limerick.

[BonnieShels]

Leo Cullen seemingly omitted again whilst the penalty magnet DOC makes it again.

[Real ale Madrid]

Was just looking back over our record against Southern Hemisphere teams on Summer tours:

Played: 36
Won: 6
Drawn: 0
Lost: 30

Our Wins are: Australia (3) - 1979 twice and 1967
Fiji - 1976
Tonga 2002
Samoa 2002

Given our historical form on these end of season tours - it will be a hell of an achievement to lose the series 2-1. I'd take any win over New Zealand.

[Real ale Madrid]

Its going to be some weekend of Sport, kicking off with the 1st Test on Saturday morning.

Ireland team to play the All Blacks Saturday:

R Kearney; F McFadden, B O'Driscoll (captain), K Earls, S Zebo; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, D Fitzpatrick, D Tuohy, D Ryan, P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Great to see some new faces in there - although it will be a tough baptism of fire for Zebo and Fitzpatrick who are both low enough on experience. Looking forward to seeing how Ryan and Touhy do as a 2nd row partnership.

Australia host Wales after this and South Africa entertain England in the afternoon.

[Macy]

Think it's nuts to start Murray over Reddan. I personally wouldn't have Zebo where Kidney has him in the pecking order, but at least Kidney has picked the one he thinks out of Gilroy/ Kearney/ Zebo. Not sure on the centre combination, it'll be interesting how that plays out and whether they switch them around during the game. Again personally, I think Earls position is on the wing, but if Kidney's buying into the centre thing good to see him starting. Not sure what DOC must have done to finally get dropped.

Surprising selection in a generally good way, save Murray, so now it'll be interesting to see has he brought on the game plan 5 years too.

[Charlie Darwin]

Zebo is unexpected, as well as Earls in the centre with McFadden on the wing when I'd have predicted the other way around. Going to be a huge day for Fitzpatrick and the Irish scrum. I wonder if Tuohy's selection is on form or to give some back up to Fitzpatrick.

[seanfhear]

At least there is some new faces even if they are enforced. It was beginning to look like Kidney was only allowed to pick players that he had already picked. I hope Kidney shows on this tour that his ideas are moving with the times.

I believe that rugby changes a lot even over a season or two. Kidney seems set in the same same old.

[OwlsFan]

No comments on the rugby? The third game was always going to be a trouncing after getting so close to a result in the second match. Must be time for Kidney to walk the plank now? 50% of community here want Trap to walk after 4-0 defeat by (note not "to") the World Champions. What was it an 8-0 drubbing in tries by the All Blacks?

[Macy]

What's to say? Poor game plan, poor selection, time for Kidney to go. Staying on is just damaging his (deserved) reputation really. Not that the media lap dogs will bloody say it. Even newstalk seem happy to let criticism be dismissed as inter provincial rivalry, which is pretty much bs from what I've seen on other forums.

The other main excuse used is the lack of squad depth - that's feckin Kidney's fault too, he hasn't blooded players. Even with young players out there he pulls Paddy Wallace off a beach to start. I'd have had Wallace in the squad for the tour, but once he made his decision he should've stuck with it. The flip flopping on selections like Wallace suggests to me a lack of an overall plan, which is very worrying. Plenty of young players are getting time at provincial level, contrary to the likes of Keith Woods have been making out, they are just not getting selected by the national team.

[Real ale Madrid]

No comments on the rugby? The third game was always going to be a trouncing after getting so close to a result in the second match. Must be time for Kidney to walk the plank now? 50% of community here want Trap to walk after 4-0 defeat by (note not "to") the World Champions. What was it an 8-0 drubbing in tries by the All Blacks?

9-0

Too painful to discuss for me on the back of the euro's as well. After the dust settles - still can't help feeling that the 3rd test was a disgraceful performance. All black's finally figured out the easiest way to attack us was the 10/12 channel and having a guy who was on his holidays the week previous playing 12 was never going to end well. Although Wallace has copped far too much flak for the defeat as usual, the rest of the back line was just as culpable.

At the end of the day the the last 2 games was a microcosm of the whole season for the International team- great 1 week, shocking the next . Australia in the World Cup , France in the 6N and the 2nd test against New Zealand were all really good display's , but the defeats to Wales, and more especially the thrashings against England and the 2 games against the AB's showed that the national team had far more bad day's than good this season. Overall stats dont make for good reading. Played: 17, Won: 6, Drawn: 1, Lost: 10.

Not sure what Kidney's plan for the future is to be honest - I'm not even sure what type of game we play now. There are plenty of players available who are world class but we can't seem to play well on a consistant basis, all the while we lose ground to England and Wales who will have gained a lot from thier tours and who I would expect to have a few wins in the Autumn against SH teams.

Much like the soccer team - there is never a dull moment in fairness.

[Schumi]

At the end of the day the the last 2 games was a microcosm of the whole season for the International team- great 1 week, shocking the next . Australia in the World Cup , France in the 6N and the 2nd test against New Zealand were all really good display's , but the defeats to Wales, and more especially the thrashings against England and the 2 games against the AB's showed that the national team had far more bad day's than good this season. Overall stats dont make for good reading. Played: 17, Won: 6, Drawn: 1, Lost: 10.
Those 6 wins include USA, Russia, Scotland and Italy twice. Australia in the world cup is the only game Ireland won against a top-8 country in the last 12. That's a shocking record.

[Macy]

Too painful to discuss for me on the back of the euro's as well. After the dust settles - still can't help feeling that the 3rd test was a disgraceful performance. All black's finally figured out the easiest way to attack us was the 10/12 channel and having a guy who was on his holidays the week previous playing 12 was never going to end well. Although Wallace has copped far too much flak for the defeat as usual, the rest of the back line was just as culpable.
To be fair, I haven't seen Wallace take that much flak. Most of the flak was, as you say, picking a guy who was on holidays. He should've been picked in the first place imo.

The whole squad was a total mishmash, which has followed on from the last few years - some players justified on the basis of form, and others left out on the basis of giving young fellas a chance. The problem is because some that have lost out (most notably Reddan, but also Cullen imo) are Leinster based, media commentators just dismiss it as provincial bias. They just ignore that it applies to Ulster, Munster and even Connacht players that have been hard done by in recent seasons.

To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder if the rare top performances are the players ditching the game plan they've been told and going at it themselves. It would explain the changes made in the wake of some of them.

[Real ale Madrid]

To be fair, I haven't seen Wallace take that much flak. Most of the flak was, as you say, picking a guy who was on holidays. He should've been picked in the first place imo.

The whole squad was a total mishmash, which has followed on from the last few years - some players justified on the basis of form, and others left out on the basis of giving young fellas a chance. The problem is because some that have lost out (most notably Reddan, but also Cullen imo) are Leinster based, media commentators just dismiss it as provincial bias. They just ignore that it applies to Ulster, Munster and even Connacht players that have been hard done by in recent seasons.

To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder if the rare top performances are the players ditching the game plan they've been told and going at it themselves. It would explain the changes made in the wake of some of them.

Can't really argue with any of that.

The strange thing for me is the lack of pressure on the coach now and his staff. If the soccer team lost 10 games in a season........

[Stuttgart88]

Anybody got an informed opinion on the new BT English TV deal and likely outcome / consequences?

[Charlie Darwin]

There hasn't been much reaction to it yet as I think everybody is a touch confused by the whole thing. John O'Sullivan's piece in the Times is probably the most comprehensive assessment: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0913/1224323996620.html

I'd imagine we'll have a year or more of slow negotiations but I have no idea what the outcome will be. While BT are very new players in the game, they have already secured ESPN's EPL rights and seem to have the financial strength the likes of Setanta never had and will be using the deal to recruit high-speed broadband customers and the generally affluent types who consume rugby would fit into that.

It is a huge step forward financially for the English clubs but they may have created a monster here that will be hard to contain. The potential is definitely there to increase the size of the pie rather than merely increasing the Premiership's share but god knows how that will work out. The French clubs have remained schtum and seem to be expressing bewilderment in private - they are themselves divided on what form they want the competition to take in future, but they'd have settled for modest concessions rather than wholesale change.

[Jofspring]

Very sad news just coming out tonight about the passing of Ulster Rugby's young centre Nevin Spence, his brother and father in a slurry accident in Down. He was a real talent and was going to be a future star of Irish Rugby.

Awful news tonight that puts everything into perspective.

R.I.P

[Mr A]

Jeepers, that's truly awful. RIP Nevin.

[swinfordfc]

RIP Nevin Spence, his brother and father

[Charlie Darwin]

A couple of surprises in the team to face South Africa: Mike McCarthy, the form second row in Ireland, ahead of O'Callaghan is a good sign, so is taking a gamble on Zebo at FB. Kilcoyne and Henderson on the bench is also exciting. Heaslip captain - expect him to carry a lot more with Ferris and O'Brien not there.

Ireland: S Zebo (Munster); T Bowe (Ulster), K Earls (Munster), G D’Arcy (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster); J Sexton (Leinster), C Murray (Munster); C Healy (Leinster), R Strauss (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster); M McCarthy (Connacht), D Ryan (Munster); P O’Mahony (Munster), C Henry (Ulster), J Healsip (Leinster, capt).Replacements: S Cronin (Leinster), D Kilcoyne (Munster), M Bent (Leinster), D O’Callaghan (Munster), I Henderson (Ulster), E Reddan (Leinster), R O’Gara (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster)

[Charlie Darwin]

God god, if O'Gara ever plays a game of international rugby after that I just give up.

[Kingdom]

God god,

So do you mean the father, the son, or some super god like Odin?

[BonnieShels]

I only got to listen to it on the radio so I missed the goings-on.

[It Sucks]

World Cup 2015 draw today:

Pool 1: Australia, England, Wales, Oceana 1, Play-off Winner

Pool 2: South Africa, Samoa, Scotland, Asia 1, Americas 2

Pool 3: New Zealand, Argentina, Tonga, Europe 1, Africa 1

Pool 4: France, Ireland, Italy, Americas 1, Europe 2

Not too bad a draw for us, I'd fancy us against the French in England.

[Real ale Madrid]

World Cup 2015 draw today:

Pool 4: France, Ireland, Italy, Americas 1, Europe 2

Not too bad a draw for us, I'd fancy us against the French in England.

I wouldn't -but you'd never know what is going to happen in the next 3 years. France look particularly strong at the moment.

Pool 1 is a great pool - you are looking at England v Australia as the opening game as well as England / Wales and Australia / Wales in the following weeks.
Fiji will be the Oceania 1 team - who have beaten Wales in the past - but they need to greatly improve in the next 3 years to be competitive.

Pool 3 is interesting - if form holds up and Georgia end up as Europe 1 - they have an outside chance of being competitive I think.
Looking at their results in 2011 - 6-15 against Scotland and 7-25 against Argentina, they would certainly have to improve, but beating Tonga would certainly be attainable. Argentina might be out of reach - but maybe on an off day....., after all they should have beaten Ireland in 2003.

Only 1017 days to go.......

[tetsujin1979]

presented without comment, Kate Rowan's article about Richie McCaw from the Independent: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/kate-rowan-he-seems-too-good-to-be-true-but-richie-mccaw-is-a-legend-on-and-off-the-field-3315997.html

[Mr A]

Great result for Connacht last night. But monster result altogether for Ulster to take a bonus point at Northampton.