View Full Version : Can we sustain our full-time players and large squad?
Probably an old topic, but hearing the news about SPA today, a part-time club with some full-time players, and when you look at Bohs as well, ($h£l$ I don't give a damn about), are there warnings to be heeded by City?
I know that Lennox is a good business man, we have good sponsors, presently get decent crowds, but is it enough?
We are all on a high at the moment, but can we seriously achieve and sustain the ambitious plans that Brian has for City?
I think we need a bar, or some other cash business, as a constant source of income.
With part-time clubs, the standard will go down, making the league even less attractive to TV, so the situation of no income from that source will continue.
It's great for us at the moment, as we seem to be finacially sound for a few years at least, but should we be very careful?
Signing the likes of Foley might not be a good idea, given the squad we already have and the money he could cost in wages.
We want to dominate, but we must be careful.
I don't think Brian will spend money he doesn't have to be honest. I trust the guy to run the club properly and if we can keep this up, we could be in the champions league groups in 2 or 3 years- money wouldn't be much hassle then (well for the supporters it would i guess!)
Fair_play_boy
20/07/2004, 8:51 PM
We are all on a high at the moment, but can we seriously achieve and sustain the ambitious plans that Brian has for City?
Agrees with Patsh. We can not risk jumping too far ahead rashly. Steady growth is the thing. But Lennox has to keep thinking ahead to keep pushing the club in a coherent direction. It would be good to remember that Cork Hibs went out of business after a short illness.
bohs til i die
21/07/2004, 7:22 AM
I don't think Brian will spend money he doesn't have to be honest. I trust the guy to run the club properly and if we can keep this up, we could be in the champions league groups in 2 or 3 years- money wouldn't be much hassle then (well for the supporters it would i guess!)
if you really think Cork City will be in the champions league in 2/3 years time you are seriously deluded. Clubs in the seond round are light years ahead of football in this country. Even in Estonia last week, the facilities they have in comparison to what is available here is miles ahead of the eircom league. Cork may be enjoying some decent results, but they are in the Intertoto cup.
The champions league is a different class and Bohs found that out against the best possible team we could have drawn last year in the second round. Rosenborg was a lesson in everything from facilities for training, to stadium management and spectator facilities. It will be at least 5 years before an eircom league team wins a round 2 tie and at least 20 years before a team from this league is able to compete in round three. Until clubs have the same levels of facilities available, it wont happen.
Ironically I think Shels have a decent chance against Split, if they beat KR tonight, because in recent years eircom league teams have been drawn against Rosenborg [twice], Halmstads [who were mid season compared to Bohs just starting back]. Shels messed up in 2002 against Hibernians from Malta, but had they progressed, they would have been beaten by Boavista.
Cork have done well, and well done on that, you've beaten some decent sides from much bigger leagues, but until such time that clubs have proper facilities for senior squads and youth development, Champions League groups are a long way away.
sullanefc
21/07/2004, 10:51 AM
I'd have to agree with a lot of what bohs til i die says. I know city have done fantastically well in this years intertoto cup, but every dog has its day. If we had these sort of performances every season then I would probably think different. But its only one decent Euro cup. We need to do this consistantlly, and I think we can only do this with better facilities and a good youth system.
Roo69
21/07/2004, 11:02 AM
if you really think Cork City will be in the champions league in 2/3 years time you are seriously deluded. Clubs in the seond round are light years ahead of football in this country. Even in Estonia last week, the facilities they have in comparison to what is available here is miles ahead of the eircom league. Cork may be enjoying some decent results, but they are in the Intertoto cup.
The champions league is a different class and Bohs found that out against the best possible team we could have drawn last year in the second round. Rosenborg was a lesson in everything from facilities for training, to stadium management and spectator facilities. It will be at least 5 years before an eircom league team wins a round 2 tie and at least 20 years before a team from this league is able to compete in round three. Until clubs have the same levels of facilities available, it wont happen.
Ironically I think Shels have a decent chance against Split, if they beat KR tonight, because in recent years eircom league teams have been drawn against Rosenborg [twice], Halmstads [who were mid season compared to Bohs just starting back]. Shels messed up in 2002 against Hibernians from Malta, but had they progressed, they would have been beaten by Boavista.
Cork have done well, and well done on that, you've beaten some decent sides from much bigger leagues, but until such time that clubs have proper facilities for senior squads and youth development, Champions League groups are a long way away.
Defo agree with Bohs till i die ! cant beleive im agreeing with a bohs fan :) but all what he says is spot on. Until proper facilites and heavy investment is put into our league we will never compete at the business end (champs league group stages/uefa cup 3rd and 4th rounds) of european competitions
City will have to get to Europe every year just like $hel$ & Bohs. the one advantage we have is better core support now & we know the big crowds will trurn out for europe or big league & cup games.
City have improved a lot commercially & must be taking much more money in from advertising & merchandising.
bohs til i die
21/07/2004, 11:28 AM
Defo agree with Bohs till i die ! cant beleive im agreeing with a bohs fan :) but all what he says is spot on. Until proper facilites and heavy investment is put into our league we will never compete at the business end (champs league group stages/uefa cup 3rd and 4th rounds) of european competitions
its not even about heavy investment. Clubs can progress if they had something to offer all the promising youngsters who either head to England or who dont realise their potential because of the lack of facilities here. Levadia Tallinn have a tidy but not spectacular stadium. Behind the main stand, they havea training ground, an all wather pitch and other facilities. Even against Bate Borisov it was the same. Borisov is the poorest place I have ever been to. But the stadium had the training facilities for them to use.
Levadia and BATE have these pitches as part of the local community. They might not specifically own them but having such amenities available to clubs makes it a lot easier.
Cork have played well this year, but have beaten mid table teams from decent, but not top level leagues. That is not to say the results arent magnificent because they are, but in the Champions League you will have the top Swedish, Dutch and French sides. They would be a different proposition because of what is at stake in this competition, and its a huge gap.
Most clubs have hired training facilities and use public gyms. No club has [to the best of my knowledge] got a training pitch and gym all fo their own.
On the facilities side, it seems that City are training on a Gaa pitch at the moment (deer park's)... We don't even own our ground - So a bit of realism Eanna.
Reckon Brian and Pat can get us going in the right direction, but even 5 years is optimistic for the CL 2nd round
I think Eanna is being a bit optimistic but hes not deluded. After we conceeded that late goal To Malmo i thought we were gone, so who knows.
To put it in perspective would city get by KR in the first qualifying round of the champions league? My answer is yes, they are far inferior to any of the clubs we have faced this season in Europe.
2nd Qualifying round sees Shels meeting Hajduk Split - not unbeatable. (one of their other possible opponents was djurgardens the swedish champions - and swedes arent unbeatable ;) ).
That beings us to the final round to get into the champions league group stages (and if you get knocked out you end up in the UEFA Cup :) ).
The possible oponents are:- Real Madrid, Man Utd, La coruna, Liverpool, Juventus, Inter, PSV, Bayer Leverkusen, Sparta Prague, Anderlecht, Monaco, Club Brugge, Rangers, Rosenborg, PAOk, Dinamo Kiev.
Out of those maybe an Irish team could beat Rangers, Club Brugge and possibly Rosenborg. The luck of the draw.
If you drew someone like Real Madrid you lose but get a huge financial dividend and entry into the UEFA cup.
The possible oponents are:- Real Madrid, Man Utd, La coruna, Liverpool, Juventus, Inter, PSV, Bayer Leverkusen, Sparta Prague, Anderlecht, Monaco, Club Brugge, Rangers, Rosenborg, PAOk, Dinamo Kiev.
Out of those maybe an Irish team could beat Rangers, Club Brugge and possibly Rosenborg. The luck of the draw.
If you drew someone like Real Madrid you lose but get a huge financial dividend and entry into the UEFA cup.
With restructured qualifying rounds now i think supporters pretty much expect each eL to win their first round. A few years ago people would have been happy for each team to pick up some ranking points when losing tie. 3 year aim of CL team in 3rd round qualifier meaning guaranteed 8 games in Europe which be worth a few euro... Would still need lot of luck to get to group stages.
Schumi
21/07/2004, 2:50 PM
an Irish team could beat ... Rosenborg.They hammered Bohs last year. I couldn't see any Iirsh club getting near them.
I actually said could possibly beat Rosenborg, Schumi.
The reason i say that is beacuse they are not playing as well this season as previously. I dont even think they are leading the Norwegian league at the moment.
bohs til i die
21/07/2004, 3:02 PM
I actually said could possibly beat Rosenborg, Schumi.
The reason i say that is beacuse they are not playing as well this season as previously. I dont even think they are leading the Norwegian league at the moment.
half way through the norwegian league and rosenborg are 2 points behind Tromso.
Thats a real crisis now isnt it.
Schumi
21/07/2004, 3:04 PM
I actually said could possibly beat Rosenborg, Schumi."Could beat", "Could possibly beat". What's the difference?
The reason i say that is beacuse they are not playing as well this season as previously.
I dont even think they are leading the Norwegian league at the moment.
They're second at the moment but they've pulled themselves up from much further down. They lost two of their first six league but are unbeaten in their last eight. Unless they're much weaker than last year (when they didn't make the CL group stage), they'd still have far too much quality.
tiktok
21/07/2004, 3:05 PM
They hammered Bohs last year. I couldn't see any Iirsh club getting near them.
and remember that it was the second qualifying round...
deportivo La Coruna were waiting in the third :(
half way through the norwegian league and rosenborg are 2 points behind Tromso.
Thats a real crisis now isnt it.Don't be ridiculous, he never mentioned anything like a crisis....:rolleyes:
If you want to take a totally defeatist attitude, go ahead, but there is a strong possibility that eoin's view that City would beat KR, have a real shot at beating Split and, if we drew Rangers or Brugge, would have at least a chance of getting to the group stages is actaully quite realistic. We have belief and optimism in our club.
half way through the norwegian league and rosenborg are 2 points behind Tromso.
Thats a real crisis now isnt it.
Well compared to their usual performances, yes it is.
take away Rosenborg and the norwegian league aint so hot.
All good things come to end sometime.
bohs til i die
21/07/2004, 3:25 PM
Don't be ridiculous, he never mentioned anything like a crisis....:rolleyes:
If you want to take a totally defeatist attitude, go ahead, but there is a strong possibility that eoin's view that City would beat KR, have a real shot at beating Split and, if we drew Rangers or Brugge, would have at least a chance of getting to the group stages is actaully quite realistic. We have belief and optimism in our club.
its not being defeatist, its being realistic.
I went to Trondheim last year fully believing Bohs could actually score twice and knock Rosenborg out. I even incurred the wrath of the Rosenborg employee in the club shop when I told him Bohs would win 2-0. Once we arrived and saw the stadium, facilities and overall set up we knew a heavy defeat was possible. The training pitch was better then most [if not all] EL premier division pitches.
Clubs here dont have the infrastructure or training facilities. Eastern european dumps like Borisov [no money in the place] have a decent enough set up. They may be ****e but they still have the set up. If an irish club had that, they would be more than equipped to give the 3rd round a decent shot. But how can clubs hope to compete with the big boys when players are training on rented pitches which are not up to a decent standard?
European results for eircom league clubs have improved in recent years basically because of the full time ethos which clubs have tried to implement. Players have better fitness levels and the players are also of a better standard than before the summer of 2000. However the draw is designed to get the bigger, more sponsor friendly clubs through to the big stage. Breaking the mould and advancing is some time away.
I hope I am wrong but with no leadership and some very dodgy dealing going on in Merrion Square it is hard to see how the breakthrough can be made in the near/medium term future. Cork may have done very well, but dont be fooled by the results you have got.
paudie
21/07/2004, 5:01 PM
All the clubs need massive investment in training/youth team facilities but where is the money going to come from?
eircom league clubs are well down the FAI's list of priorities. Most grants seem to to go to junior/intermediate clubs which is fair enough. eircom league clubs are still getting grants just to imptove their stadiums. Grants to develop training facilities are a long way off.
The clubs need to get together to prepare some kind of 10 year development plan that could be presented to government for funding.
City's results are great but generally clubs are progressing at a snails pace.
The clubs need to get together to prepare some kind of 10 year development plan that could be presented to government for funding.
I had a glance (anyone got spare 5 hpours may read it) through FAI technical Plan @ fai.ie & while will produce better players in the country I wasn't impressed by eL sections...
paudie
21/07/2004, 5:23 PM
The country has an excellent youth coaching system as we produce a lot of good players for our population but most of this work seems to be done through clubs like Home Farm, Cherry Orchard, St Josephs Boys who specialise in youth football coaching
EL clubs should go out of their way to set up similar structures and then develop their own players.
Grants that are seen to be going to clubs that specialise in youths football are more popular than those going to EL clubs who are suspected of wasting the money on wages.
Most EL clubs seem to have little interest in youths football wheras it could the key to developing their facilities.
far from deluded! yes we have to put the training facilities inplace, but rumour has it there are plans afoot there anyway. As for the youth teams- haven't city signed a deal with the Cork Schoolboys league? Is our U-21 not the best in the country, with a stream of young players coming through each year? We have the biggest crowds by far, which will hopefully keep growing, jerseys and other merchandise are selling well, we have big sponsors and a young team which can get so much better. Look at how much we've progressed since our last Euro adventure- last time out (in 2000) we lost to some bog-standard team from Latvia (who then got hammered by a dutch team) and compare to our results this season. Add to that the fact that the progress really began when Dolan took over and if we can maintain that level of progress each year, I say we CAN make the group stages in 3 years. Being honest I think we'll find it harder to win the league than win through 2 or 3 rounds in Europe because of our style. It is possible, and in Brian Lennox and Pat Dolan we have the best chairman and manager equipped to do that for us. Positivity is not delusion!
bohs til i die
22/07/2004, 8:08 AM
far from deluded! yes we have to put the training facilities inplace, but rumour has it there are plans afoot there anyway. As for the youth teams- haven't city signed a deal with the Cork Schoolboys league? Is our U-21 not the best in the country, with a stream of young players coming through each year? We have the biggest crowds by far, which will hopefully keep growing, jerseys and other merchandise are selling well, we have big sponsors and a young team which can get so much better. Look at how much we've progressed since our last Euro adventure- last time out (in 2000) we lost to some bog-standard team from Latvia (who then got hammered by a dutch team) and compare to our results this season. Add to that the fact that the progress really began when Dolan took over and if we can maintain that level of progress each year, I say we CAN make the group stages in 3 years. Being honest I think we'll find it harder to win the league than win through 2 or 3 rounds in Europe because of our style. It is possible, and in Brian Lennox and Pat Dolan we have the best chairman and manager equipped to do that for us. Positivity is not delusion!
I will say this now, NO club from the eircom league will make the group stages of the Champions League for a minimum of 20 years, unless UEFA really change the structure of the competition. This season, the third round draw includes
Real Madrid, Manchester United, Deportivo La Coruña, Liverpool, Juventus, Internazionale, PSV Eindhoven, Bayer Leverkusen, Sparta Praha, Anderlecht, AS Monaco, Club Brugge, Glasgow Rangers, Rosenborg BK, PAOK Thessaloniki, Dinamo Kiev.
Yes, clubs will always have a chance in most ties, but realistically, no Irish club has looked like getting beyond round 2 so far, so how can we hope to compete in the near future in round 3 ??
Malmo and Nec Nijmegan are good sides, but nowhere near as good as any of these. They are in the Intertoto because they finished mid table in their respective leagues. For Cork to get to the UEFA Cup, all they have to do is finish one place higher. The likes of NEC Nijmegan wont be bothering the champions league hierarchy any time soon unless Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord go out of business.
Cork may be doing a lot right, but how many players in the eircom league would be able to play regular premiership/serie A/Primera liga football ?? The answer is none, because we dont have players in this league good enough. Likewise we dont have the facilities or coaching abilities that are available to the clubs who we could face in round 1, 2 or 3 of the champions league qualifiers.
[QUOTE=bohs til i die]I will say this now, NO club from the eircom league will make the group stages of the Champions League for a minimum of 20 years, unless UEFA really change the structure of the competition.
[QUOTE]
I think 20 years is a bit pessimistic but clearly no team is going to get there in next 3-5 years. Its too hard to ride your luck over a 2 leg tie.
Immediate goal should be getting teams to progress through a few rounds & gradually build it up & makes it easier to keep & attract better players.
Shel$ have one of the better draws with Hijuk Split this year but I don't see them getting past them but doesn't Bohs or City wouldn't have good go.
Getting to the 3rd qualifying round of CL would mean good money plus bonus of UEFA 1st round proper & more cash.
I will say this now, NO club from the eircom league will make the group stages of the Champions League for a minimum of 20 years, unless UEFA really change the structure of the competition. This season, the third round draw includes
Real Madrid, Manchester United, Deportivo La Coruña, Liverpool, Juventus, Internazionale, PSV Eindhoven, Bayer Leverkusen, Sparta Praha, Anderlecht, AS Monaco, Club Brugge, Glasgow Rangers, Rosenborg BK, PAOK Thessaloniki, Dinamo Kiev.
sure why don't we give up altogether?! :rolleyes: the likes of PAOK, Rosenberg, Rangers and maybe Anderlecht should be in our sights in a few years.
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