Shels v Sligo FAI Cup final - Lansdowne Road 6th Nov

[Straightstory]

Not sure which was Damian Richardson's crazier opinion last night on MNS: that Winter made the right decision in sending off Clancy, or that Ireland would have been better off drawing a bigger team (Portugal for example, I presume) in the play off rather than Estonia. The man's a fruitcake.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

I've been too sick to my stomach to post about this. The ref obviously was a shambles, what an idiot he is and ruined the game. Shels deserved to win and unfortunately didn't. Delaney I'm starting to worry about. He's making far too many clangers and now and effectively he pretty much dived away from the ball. When the pressure has been turned up the last 8-10 games he's not handled the pressure and was pretty annoyed at how bad he was at their goal.

The team though I'm so proud of, their efforts this year have been superb. Actually can't wait for next season.

[Dodge]

I know, but the sheer incompetence of that refereeing defies credibility. How is it possible for Winter to have been so awful? It's not a matter of "believ[ing] it's a conspiracy" as you say. It's a question of not believing my eyes. I'm not looking for a conspiracy; I'm trying to make sense of what I saw and I am struggling.
Get a bleeding grip! None of the Winter decision on Sunday would rank in the top 100 worst decisions I've seen in the league. We've seen goals awarded for hitting the side netting. Goals not given because they went through a whole in the net. Players had their legs smashed and not even be awarded a free. I've seen countless defenders elbow strikers and get away with it. Offsides given for strikers intercepting back passes... etc etc etc

The interprepation of a guy falling over is nothing compared to these

And keeper not being called over coming off his line happen happens in more penalties than not.

[CSFShels]

"The odds are always massively in favour of the taker"

I watch a lot of late night poker and know of no stats that would back that up....

possibilities...
1. goal
2. save
3.wide
4.over the bar
5.hit the bar
6. hit the upright
7. scuff it
8. hit it too softly to cross the goal line
etc etc etc

dont see great odds there:confused:
Oh holy divine Mother of Casso.

[S.E.P.1990]

We won the game, whether or not your chanting was louder (which I seriously doubt considering your paltry support) is irrelevant so why you keep banging on about it embarrassing yourself is a mystery.
Ask Mathews what he thinks.
Dong, get a grip will ya. We are well aware of the result, this comment had nothing to do with it, it was in reply to a mention of flags and the general atmosphere. Unlike you I wasn't having a go, just commenting on what I saw. But if you want me to bite...you had more people at the game but made less of an atmosphere, we may be paltry but at least we know how to sing. And yes, you still won the cup.....

[fionnsci]

How many did Shels bring in the end?
(Sorry if my post isn't bitter/controversial enough for this thread).

[marinobohs]

Grand job he got the cup final then.

.....only in Ireland would such a serial f*** up get near a cup final :rolleyes: complete muppet and ref most likely to believe people are paying to see him rather than football match.

Self regulation has been an unmitigated disaster in so many areas of Irish life. Until such time as there is real accountibility among refs we will continue to have many games turned into a lottery (Shels benifited from adiodgy red in the semi) of refs screw ups.

[OneForTheFuture]

How many did Shels bring in the end?
(Sorry if my post isn't bitter/controversial enough for this thread).


Anywhere between 200 (if you listen to a Limerick fan) to 5000

[joeSoap]

funny man...:rolleyes:

[LeixlipRed]

"The odds are always massively in favour of the taker"

I watch a lot of late night poker and know of no stats that would back that up....

possibilities...
1. goal
2. save
3.wide
4.over the bar
5.hit the bar
6. hit the upright
7. scuff it
8. hit it too softly to cross the goal line
etc etc etc

dont see great odds there:confused:

I never post anymore on here but I just say you've inspired me to hand back my degree and masters in maths. Teach me more oh wise one.

[S.E.P.1990]

Anywhere between 200 (if you listen to a Limerick fan) to 5000

We sold just over 4000 through the club, so around 5000 with other ticket sales.

[OneForTheFuture]

We sold just over 4000 through the club, so around 5000 with other ticket sales.

I have heard the figures alright from Niall and Frank just highlighting the ballcocks you have to read here.

[dublinred]

I know, but the sheer incompetence of that refereeing defies credibility. How is it possible for Winter to have been so awful? It's not a matter of "believ it's a conspiracy" as you say. It's a question of not believing my eyes. I'm not looking for a conspiracy; I'm trying to make sense of what I saw and I am struggling.

Didn't Winter see Kelly standing yards off his line for those penalties? If he did see it, why did he choose not to apply the rules of the game? If he didn't see it what [I]was he looking at and who decided that a blind man was suitable to be the referee of the FAI cup final?

I thought Monday Night Shams was pretty biased again last night as usual pathetic atempt by the presenter to apologise at the end of the discussions did anyone not see where Delaney was for our penalties , Winter was woeful on sunday as predicted in advance by most people on here . The standard of refs in this league drives me mad first tackle is usually a yellow card instead of a warning in comparison to other leagues , we as fans pay the refs wages surely we should have some say in how the games are being refereed.

[Dodge]

If the first tackle is a bookable offence, it should be a yellow. There's no 'quick word' in the laws.

they're the best refs in the country. And I say that as someone who watches junior and schoolboy football. THey all make basic errors.

Annoying as it is when it goes against you, all you can hope is that they're not biased

[redobit]

4 trophys played for this season and one ended up in each of the provinces. A LOI for sure.

[Cuyahoga]

4 trophys played for this season and one ended up in each of the provinces. A LOI for sure.
5 trophies , you forgot the Setanta cup which went to the province of Leinster.

[Hairy Bowsie]

Ill give you your bite squire.
You involved in BD? No? Didn't think so. 4000 cards takes more then one lad. As for imagination each to their own but using old materials for a final not for me. Original? It's not as if any other fan group here has tried cards at that scale and pulled it off. The south stand was full of bandwagoners what would BD do in that stand?

And you think the 5000 that were Shels fans show up in Tolka every week? Idiot.

I'm sure the 4000 cards did take more than one lad but it could be done by one lad realistically. You're a pack of jokers and amateurs, stay in BD's shadow.

[BonnieShels]

If the first tackle is a bookable offence, it should be a yellow. There's no 'quick word' in the laws.

they're the best refs in the country. And I say that as someone who watches junior and schoolboy football. THey all make basic errors.

Annoying as it is when it goes against you, all you can hope is that they're not biased

Completely agree here. But there's no getting away from his shambolic display though.

The referee does a have discretion though and I think like a lot of people, Richie should hsve used some with the red card.

[Dodge]

The referee does a have discretion though and I think like a lot of people, Richie should hsve used some with the red card.
Why though?

If he's sure it as a dive, he should book him. No question at all.

[BonnieShels]

Why? Because common sense should always prevail.

It never does.

Would you agree say, that v Persie should have been sent off for kicking the ball away?

Technically the referee was correct in his application of the relevant rules but should he gave exercised some discretion in tgat the player had just been booked relatively recently?

No one is arguing with you over Winters application. The problem is that it was a mental decision to make so quickly.

Would you have sent off Clancy based on what you saw live?

[Sean South]

And you think the 5000 that were Shels fans show up in Tolka every week? Idiot.

I'm sure the 4000 cards did take more than one lad but it could be done by one lad realistically. You're a pack of jokers and amateurs, stay in BD's shadow.

Settle pettle I'm not knocking BDs choreo it was good and all ready said their section was better through out the game but if in the south stand they would have faced the same issues as the Rovers lads. Having the smaller end is easier to control, the school end at Daler for the two semi finals this year and last is one example. That message banner could be painted by one person too same as setting up 4000 cards if you want to go down that route but we all know it's a group effort so no need for that rubbish. Looking forward to seeing BD next year.

[CSFShels]

Why though?

If he's sure it as a dive, he should book him. No question at all.
Because he couldn't be sure, because it wasn't a dive.

[Dodge]

Why? Because common sense should always prevail.

It never does.
I disagree strongly. Refs are there to decide if somethign is a foul or not. They can't be allowed decide whats 'best for the game' or any of that rubbish.


Would you agree say, that v Persie should have been sent off for kicking the ball away?

Technically the referee was correct in his application of the relevant rules but should he gave exercised some discretion in tgat the player had just been booked relatively recently?
yes he deserved to be sent off. Now you're saying the order in which fouls accur determines whether someone should be carded or not? So you'd have no issue if Van Persie was booked for kicking the ball away, and 20 minutes later was booked for a bad foul? Personally I just want players to be carded if the offence deserves one. IF that means having 6 players sent off, then so be it. I'd like to think people would soon stop picking up stupid cards for mouthing/diving/kicking the ball away


Would you have sent off Clancy based on what you saw live?
yes I thought it was a dive. If its a dive, its a card.

The ultimate example of a ref making decisions on 'common sense' and 'not wanting to ruin the game' was Howard Webb in the last World Cup final. Game was a shambles as he didn't want to send de Jong off too early. game was a disaster


Because he couldn't be sure, because it wasn't a dive.
seperate argument. A ref can only give a free if he he's sure. So HE was sure.

What you or I think is immaterial

[De Town]

4 trophys played for this season and one ended up in each of the provinces. A LOI for sure.

Yep, and 3 of those 4 trophy winners have about 10 years of history between them. Great to see new, up and coming clubs doing well for themselves, eh?

[marinobohs]

I disagree strongly. Refs are there to decide if somethign is a foul or not. They can't be allowed decide whats 'best for the game' or any of that rubbish.


yes he deserved to be sent off. Now you're saying the order in which fouls accur determines whether someone should be carded or not? So you'd have no issue if Van Persie was booked for kicking the ball away, and 20 minutes later was booked for a bad foul? Personally I just want players to be carded if the offence deserves one. IF that means having 6 players sent off, then so be it. I'd like to think people would soon stop picking up stupid cards for mouthing/diving/kicking the ball away


yes I thought it was a dive. If its a dive, its a card.

The ultimate example of a ref making decisions on 'common sense' and 'not wanting to ruin the game' was Howard Webb in the last World Cup final. Game was a shambles as he didn't want to send de Jong off too early. game was a disaster


seperate argument. A ref can only give a free if he he's sure. So HE was sure.

What you or I think is immaterial

Dodge, no doubt the ref in the semi final at Richmond was sure he was right as well, does not make the decision any less wrong
I thought the second yellow on Sunday was harsh but was not surprised as Winters has been awful on any occasion I saw him this season (hence the signature below) and ,in my opinion, should not have got such a high profile game :rolleyes:.

The failure to see the keeper so far off his line for the pens (by both ref and assistant ref) was beyond a joke (unless refs now have flexibilty to ignore some rules and not others:confused:)

[osarusan]

Dodge, no doubt the ref in the semi final at Richmond was sure he was right as well, does not make the decision any less wrong

That's not the point though. Dodge was responding to a post arguing that, as the referee's decision was (in his opinion) wrong, the referee could therefore never have been sure it was the right decision. That argument is illogical.

[Cuyahoga]

Yep, and 3 of those 4 trophy winners have about 10 years of history between them. Great to see new, up and coming clubs doing well for themselves, eh?
You keep thinking that, it might make you feel better about your self.

[S.E.P.1990]

I disagree strongly. Refs are there to decide if somethign is a foul or not. They can't be allowed decide whats 'best for the game' or any of that rubbish.

And yet, earlier on, you dismissed the Sligo keeper penalty infringment by saying that it happens most times. So one type of offence v another offence should be treated differently? But the ref hasnt got that leeway Dodge, as you have said. Surely the ref can't decide when to let these things go Dodge? Surely we should have had retaken penalties in this case? I'm a bit confused.......:)

[marinobohs]

That's not the point though. Dodge was responding to a post arguing that, as the referee's decision was (in his opinion) wrong, the referee could therefore never have been sure it was the right decision. That argument is illogical.

If Winters made the call (on second yellow) without thinking that he was right that is cheating - and I dont think anyone suggested that.
Doubt that anyone thinks Winters errors were anything more than incompetence, if that is the justification then fine.

Not a cheat, just incompetent :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

And yet, earlier on, you dismissed the Sligo keeper penalty infringment by saying that it happens most times.
I didn't say that. I said that one posters claims that Winters was historically bad was rubbish, because a) the dive decision wasn't THAT bad, and b) most refs get the keeper off the line at penos thing wrong.

I didn't say Winters was right to allow the penos to stand.


So one type of offence v another offence should be treated differently?
Well somethings are bookable, and others aren't. A dive is bookable, but not every foul is a yellow card offence


But the ref hasnt got that leeway Dodge, as you have said. Surely the ref can't decide when to let these things go Dodge? Surely we should have had retaken penalties in this case? I'm a bit confused.......:)
I don't think I've been in any way ambiguos about this. Refs should always make the correct decision, regardless of their consequence. if that means booking a player for diving, or having a penalty re-taken 5 times, so be it

[Dodge]

If Winters made the call (on second yellow) without thinking that he was right that is cheating - and I dont think anyone suggested that.

People in this thread have precisely suggested that. One ven claimed it was part of an overall FAI conspiracy against Shels. if you read through the thread it was this post that prompted my inital response

[dublinred]

If Winters made the call (on second yellow) without thinking that he was right that is cheating - and I dont think anyone suggested that.
Doubt that anyone thinks Winters errors were anything more than incompetence, if that is the justification then fine.

Not a cheat, just incompetent :rolleyes:

Most people dream of scoring in a Cup final Winter probably dreamed of sending someone off , having just booked Clancy and then seeing that it was him again realised his dream , hopefully he will retire happy now.

[razor]

People in this thread have precisely suggested that. One ven claimed it was part of an overall FAI conspiracy against Shels.And rightly so after that Sheriff carry on.
There's no organisation rights the wrongs like Frank and Irene.

[lawman]

And rightly so after that Sheriff carry on.
There's no organisation rights the wrongs like Frank and Irene.


Laughable as it may seem, surely NOBODY believes that to be the case, or am I not seeing the bigger picture? If I thought that I would never participate in Football again.

[S.E.P.1990]

And rightly so after that Sheriff carry on.
There's no organisation rights the wrongs like Frank and Irene.
Firstly, while we have been shafted by the fai before, Winters is not a conspiracy just useless.

As for the quote above I have come to expect it from someone who supports a club that has been bailed out more times than Anglo Irish and has had more names than St Petersburg....

[El-Pietro]

Firstly, while we have been shafted by the fai before, Winters is not a conspiracy just useless.

As for the quote above I have come to expect it from someone who supports a club that has been bailed out more times than Anglo Irish and has had more names than St Petersburg....
jeez, don't be so bitter

[redobit]

Yep, and 3 of those 4 trophy winners have about 10 years of history between them. Great to see new, up and coming clubs doing well for themselves, eh?

I know, sure they grow up so fast.

[razor]

As for the quote above I have come to expect it from someone who supports a club that has been bailed out more times than Anglo Irish and has had more names than St Petersburg....and good honest players, don't forget that bit :D


jeez, don't be so bitterThere's a lot to be said for a bit of bitter. Cleanses the soul.

[El-Pietro]

There's a lot to be said for a bit of bitter. Cleanses the soul.

hahah, trust the FOCCER....

[KevB76]

Right, finally got round to watching replays of the sending off incident - my immediate reaction on the day was it should have been a penalty in my view from all of 70+ yards away!

But from replaying it several times, I have to say the ref got it more right than wrong.
Contact from the Rovers player was minimal, it wasnt like a push or trip or anything of that nature - put it this way, if that same contact was made anywhere else on the pitch he wouldnt have gone down, or if he had there wouldnt have been a free because there was no fowl committed - contact doesnt automatically mean a penalty, I mean look at any corner kick situation.
Add to that his own statement in the paper that he felt contact and went down. It wasnt a big theatrical dive, but nevertheless a dive it was.
So basically he WAS seeking to gain advantage by looking for a penalty, and on that basis he gave the ref a decision to make. A booking was definitely one correct option, but you have to wonder would he have been allowed use his own discretion, as we've seen plenty times before where ref's have simply allowed play to continue in similar situations.

So the question I suppose is does the ref have to apply the letter of the law, or can he use his discretion - which way is supposedly the better refereeing in the view of FIFA ?

[S.E.P.1990]

Still not bitter lads, unlike your good selves.....a cup final, promotion and over 100 years of history make the past and the present bearable.

[legendz]

It was a disappointing sending off looking back on it. The game was well poised at 1-0 to Shels who were playing well. Common sense had to prevail. There was a touch. It was enough for a penalty but it was enough for a player to not keep his balance. It was six in one and half a dozen in the other really and a case of just letting the game play on with the ball having gone through to the keeper.

[marinobohs]

[QUOTE=KevB76;1550986So the question I suppose is does the ref have to apply the letter of the law, or can he use his discretion - which way is supposedly the better refereeing in the view of FIFA ?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps explain why he (and Assistant ref) chose to ignore rule about penalties/keepers (dont believe they can have missed it) ?

Not too bothered either way - strict letter of law application OR ref's discretion - but make it consistent :rolleyes:

[redobit]

Perhaps explain why he (and Assistant ref) chose to ignore rule about penalties/keepers (dont believe they can have missed it) ?

Not too bothered either way - strict letter of law application OR ref's discretion - but make it consistent :rolleyes:

I was talking to a keeper (decent underage one) about moving off the line for penalties. His point was that it can look worse than it actually is because if a keeper leaps forward he lands far from the line. That dosent answer your question but it could have been a factor.

[nigel-harps1954]

I was talking to a keeper (decent underage one) about moving off the line for penalties. His point was that it can look worse than it actually is because if a keeper leaps forward he lands far from the line. That dosent answer your question but it could have been a factor.

Speaking as a keeper, it depends on how the penalty is hit. It's like choosing to dive in a certain direction, leaping forward can slightly close down the angle of the shot but you're also leaving yourself more open to shots hit into the roof of the net. It's a gamble you take, but at the end of the day, 99% of the time, you're better off leaping forward, more leverage from your leap and as I said, slightly closing down the shot. Technically you're meant to dive moving forward off the top of your body anyway.

[Charlie Darwin]

I was talking to a keeper (decent underage one) about moving off the line for penalties. His point was that it can look worse than it actually is because if a keeper leaps forward he lands far from the line. That dosent answer your question but it could have been a factor.
You can see on at least 2 of the penalties, Clarke jumps once a couple of yards forward and then dives in a separate motion. It looks worse than it is but it's still against the rules. 12 yards is a very short distance and even a small jump forward narrows the angles significantly.

[marinobohs]

I was talking to a keeper (decent underage one) about moving off the line for penalties. His point was that it can look worse than it actually is because if a keeper leaps forward he lands far from the line. That dosent answer your question but it could have been a factor.

But the (penalty) rule was broken and the officials were aware of it (unless both missed it from 6/7 yards) and made the call to ignore the breaking of that particular rule. Does not balance with argument they had no latitude on the simulation call. Lack of consistency :rolleyes: at very least

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

I was talking to a keeper (decent underage one) about moving off the line for penalties. His point was that it can look worse than it actually is because if a keeper leaps forward he lands far from the line. That dosent answer your question but it could have been a factor.

There's nothing wrong with a keeper coming off his line once he jumps off his line once the kick is taken. Kelly was off his line before the kicks were taken though

[KevB76]

Perhaps explain why he (and Assistant ref) chose to ignore rule about penalties/keepers (dont believe they can have missed it) ?

Not too bothered either way - strict letter of law application OR ref's discretion - but make it consistent :rolleyes:

That was the biggest disappointment for me, he was well off his line, the penalties should have been re-taken simple as that.

[fionnsci]

Penalties should have been retaken (I presume, still haven't had time to watch the recording!) but so should a considerable percentage of penalties taken. This is an extremely frequent offence and is rarely punished (not saying rightly or wrongly, just saying).