Expectations

[richieos]

Im sorry for posting a new thread. But in my opinion things here have gotten ridiculous. Im usually just a reader of this forum, i like to get the opinions of other irish fans before going to/watching Ireland matches. But the one thing i dont understand, and it has really come to a head now, is that on this forum, there are many prediction threads, and when these predictions come true, nobody is happy. For example, before the andorra game, many people said they would bite someones hand off for a scrappy 1-0 victory. But once the scrappy 2-0 victory happens, there is war, and the calls for 'trap out' begin. Same thing tonight. Everyone said they would take any sort of win against the armenians, tonight we got a 2-1 victory, and again there is major discontent and calls for traps head. I am wondering why these are the hopefull predictions of you fellow ireland fans, and when these predictions come true, there is major dissatisfaction. as an ireland fan myself, im not a fan of our style of play, but i was delighted with our result tonight, as i was with our result in andorra. I am genuinley baffled as to why so many on here make such predictions (i.e. a scrappy 1-0 or 2-1 victory) and then act so shocked and dissapointed when it actually happens. i would love to know you reasoning behing this, as i am tired of seeing prediction threads, seeing peoples hopeful predictions come completely true, and seeing the same people moaning about it. I have the same reservations about the way ireland are playing, but if anyone could explain their dissatisfaction about their own hopeful predictions coming true, i would love to hear them.

[Nugget]

I'm just sick of people calling for Trap to be sacked

[richieos]

Completely agree Nugget. I am not traps biggest fan by a longshot, but am sick of people calling for traps head at such a crucial point in qualification, especially after acievening exactly the type of result/performance hoped for by many posters on here pre-match.

[Noelys Guitar]

The only two managers who got us to major championships should be on at least some of the RTE panels. Charlton or McCarthy would give us some real insight into what it takes to qualify an Irish team for a major championship. Instead we have Dunphy (who was seen as a joke player when he played for Ireland) and Giles who never qualified us for a major finals. They are fully entitled to their opinions but the rubbish Dunphy especially came out with this evening was just pure nonsense. And then you get people parroting almost verbatim Dunphys rant on online forums.

[Colbert Report]

The only two managers who got us to major championships should be on at least some of the RTE panels. Charlton or McCarthy would give us some real insight into what it takes to qualify an Irish team for a major championship. Instead we have Dunphy (who was seen as a joke player when he played for Ireland) and Giles who never qualified us for a major finals. They are fully entitled to their opinions but the rubbish Dunphy especially came out with this evening was just pure nonsense. And then you get people parroting almost verbatim Dunphys rant on online forums.

Have you seen Charlton lately? Poor fella is getting old if you know what I mean. The last interview I read from him said that he didn't follow football anymore and couldn't name any of the current players. Mick McCarthy has other things to worry about, like keeping Wolves up in the Premiership. I don't think he'd be interested in being a pundit for RTE, not at this point anyway.

[tetsujin1979]

After the abuse he took from Dunphy, and knowing where his allegiances are, I doubt Mick would be interested in sitting alongside him ever. Does he still do punditry work for the BBC?

[mypost]

Completely agree Nugget. I am not traps biggest fan by a longshot, but am sick of people calling for traps head at such a crucial point in qualification, especially after acievening exactly the type of result/performance hoped for by many posters on here pre-match.

Could be that people don't expect to win, and when we do, they have to find something else to whinge about.

We desperately need to get to a tournament. We now have our best chance in 10 years of getting there. Trying to play like Brazil can take a back seat until after we get there. There are many teams that would swap good football for Trap's results, and once again the group phase has been a success. Only 9 points dropped, unbeaten again away from home, a rise in the world rankings, a top seed playoff achieved, and our first tournament won in 25 years, on an aggregate score of 9-0. People forget all that stuff because we play a long ball or two.

There'll always be the bitters and the begrudgers that can't be pleased no matter what we do, but I'm happy with Trap's record and would warmly welcome him staying on, as he wants to.

[jbyrne]

The only two managers who got us to major championships should be on at least some of the RTE panels. Charlton or McCarthy would give us some real insight into what it takes to qualify an Irish team for a major championship. Instead we have Dunphy (who was seen as a joke player when he played for Ireland) and Giles who never qualified us for a major finals. They are fully entitled to their opinions but the rubbish Dunphy especially came out with this evening was just pure nonsense. And then you get people parroting almost verbatim Dunphys rant on online forums.

heres a question... what Irish manager has ever enjoyed the support of our so called expert panels???

the floating Irish football "fan" loves to hear the team getting knocked and most of the panelists / radio experts go along with this for the ride. anyone who wants rid of trap has not really got the good of Irish football in mind. if he goes before the wc qualifiers we will be murdered in our group and will finish 4th. remember this prediction all you trap knockers!

[Real ale Madrid]

There's a difference between "taking" a scrappy result and being "happy" with the result afterwards. I would have bitten your arm off for a win before the game last night , but in all seriousness - how anyone could be "Happy" with what we produced last night from a footballing and creative point of view is beyond me.

At some stage in the play-off , no matter who we get drawn against, we are going to have to come out, keep the ball, play, create chances and score a goal or two. How anyone can be confident of that happening with this current team, shy of its top strikers is beyond me. Thats the reason people are unhappy. Obviously everyone is happy by in large with the results - but we still haven't qualified and people are thinking how are we going to get the job done?

[jbyrne]

At some stage in the play-off , no matter who we get drawn against, we are going to have to come out, keep the ball, play, create chances and score a goal or two.

we had to come out and play against france and we did. i believe we can again if required

[Real ale Madrid]

we had to come out and play against france and we did. i believe we can again if required

That was two years ago now - how come we couldn't do it against Slovakia last month ?

To be honest I hope 100% that you are correct - but that's blind belief in my opinion.

[Stuttgart88]

It's hard not to be frustrated at the lack of basic team skills shown by this team. I think there's more in this team than we're showing.

I'll take the results over performance all day long, but I think it's fair to ask for improvement when you genuinely believe improvement is possible.

[BonnieShels]

I think that the OP has raised some good points. But the singular thing that has been missed is that its the same people on here who do the bashing over and over again.

The trick is to ignore their opinions and instead pay attention to those more measured in their comments.

I enjoyed a lot if the game last night. I thought that we were never really in much danger of losing to honest. The Armenians didn't turn up and we exploited it. Now, bring on Estonia.

[jbyrne]

That was two years ago now - how come we couldn't do it against Slovakia last month ?


because we didnt have to.

i agree we have gone backwards a bit from two years ago but i still think that if we had no choice but to come out and play we would. may concede 2 or 3 as a result but i reckon we would have a real go at anyone if we really had to

[shakermaker1982]

I think we showed in spells last night that we can keep the ball on the floor. If we could find replacements for Whelan & Andrews we'd be a much better team. A confident central midfield pairing would demand the ball off the back 4 & link defence with attack.

I'd understand long ball football if we had Quinn, Cascarino and Jan Koller up top but we don't. Bolton under Big Sam played the percentages when it came to the long ball & showed it can work if you have the right kind of players.
We don't. Players like Kelly seem to panic when in possession & because there is nobody there to help he lumps it long. This can easily be corrected by management by instructing midfield pairing to always show for the ball or just replace em..... yet it happens over and over again.

[Real ale Madrid]

because we didnt have to.

i agree we have gone backwards a bit from two years ago but i still think that if we had no choice but to come out and play we would. may concede 2 or 3 as a result but i reckon we would have a real go at anyone if we really had to

So the only way this team is going to go out and play is when our backs are really to the wall and we are staring elimination in the face?

No wonder people are miffed.

[gormacha]

because we didnt have to.

i agree we have gone backwards a bit from two years ago but i still think that if we had no choice but to come out and play we would.

I don't get the logic of this. Are you really saying that we don't try to play decent football until we need to win a match? Doesn't that suggest that trying to play football would be the best approach all the time?

I don't agree with the OP. The argument seems to be "you're not a real supporter unless you're a cheer leader all the time". That misreads why people like me complain about our approach.

I complain about our approach because I firmly believe we are better than this. When we get the ball down and play, we can compete with all but the top tier teams, which is amazing given our player pool. But when we revert to this negative Trap style, we are muck. Yes, the poorer sides will struggle to beat us, and yes it might get us to play offs when we are in a rubbish group, but we will never reach our potential when we play like this.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's two similar points being covered by the OP - those who predict a scrappy 1-0 win and are annoyed by it after, and those who say they'd bite your hand off at a scrappy 1-0 win and are annoyed by it after. Nothing wrong with predicting a crap game and being annoyed when you're right. If you say you'd be happy with a scrappy 1-0 win and then aren't, then yeah, that's a bit silly.

[jbyrne]

I don't get the logic of this. Are you really saying that we don't try to play decent football until we need to win a match? Doesn't that suggest that trying to play football would be the best approach all the time?


coming out and playing a passing game where our ctre midfield and full backs push on etc has risks associated with it potentially leaving us open. we only take this kind or risk when we absolutely have to




it might get us to play offs when we are in a rubbish group, but we will never reach our potential when we play like this.

what potential exactly? id say we are exceeding it given the players we have

[gormacha]

coming out and playing a passing game where our ctre midfield and full backs push on etc has risks associated with it potentially leaving us open. we only take this kind or risk when we absolutely have to

Football is never as black and white as this. You can play a passing game that doesn't involve suicidal all out attack - you could pass whilst play a diamond midfield, or playing with a holding midfielder, or you could play 4-2-3-1, or, or, or...

Its about trusting your players to be able to pass to each other, to not bypass midfield as though its an out and out risk to involve your midfielders, and to give your forwards something other than balls coming out of the clouds.


what potential exactly? id say we are exceeding it given the players we have

Perhaps we disagree on the quality of our players. Of the starting eleven last night, eight play at EPL clubs, one is in the top flight of Russian football, one is at a Championship club on loan from an EPL club, and the other plays for one of the better Championship sides. Given all that, I would trust them to get the ball down on the deck and pass it to one another.

[Straightstory]

Football is never as black and white as this. You can play a passing game that doesn't involve suicidal all out attack - you could pass whilst play a diamond midfield, or playing with a holding midfielder, or you could play 4-2-3-1, or, or, or...

Its about trusting your players to be able to pass to each other, to not bypass midfield as though its an out and out risk to involve your midfielders, and to give your forwards something other than balls coming out of the clouds.



Perhaps we disagree on the quality of our players. Of the starting eleven last night, eight play at EPL clubs, one is in the top flight of Russian football, one is at a Championship club on loan from an EPL club, and the other plays for one of the better Championship sides. Given all that, I would trust them to get the ball down on the deck and pass it to one another.

Completely agree. We've played so badly in the qualifiers and a huge slice of luck has got us this far. The good fortune may even hold and we could get Estonia in the play-offs. But it's a dismal, frustrating and genuinely puzzling experience watching this Irish team struggle to string even two or three passes together. As a group of (mostly) Premiership players, they're clearly not playing to the best of their ability - presumably because of the straight jacket of fear and conservatism which Trap has imposed on the team. His record is good, but he is the luckiest manager we've ever had.

[bennocelt]

what potential exactly? id say we are exceeding it given the players we have

Hate this tripe. What? As bad as Greece, as bad as Denmark who always seem to qualify comfortably, as bad as Estonia, as bad as Montenegro???
Have you not noticed, international football bar Germany and Spain isnt that good:rolleyes:
By the way Gus Hiddink is manage of Turkey, so beware:eek:

[ArdeeBhoy]

You could add the Dutch currently.

Not sure about the other point, mind?

[zero]

i thought we played well enough last night, for the first hour anyway. i am surprised and disappointed at the negativity.

you'd think we lost the game. armenia had two shots on target all night, and the one we did let in, shay should have saved.

[hunt4the]

[QUOTE=richieos;1542060]Im sorry for posting a new thread. But in my opinion things here have gotten ridiculous.QUOTE]
totally agree and in the space of 2 pages this post has gotten ridiculous
were into the playoffs, top seeds happy days
clap for trap

[Stuttgart88]

21 points - our second highest ever?

Imagine what we'd have got if we were any good!

If we had drawn at home to Russia, everything else the same, we'd have qualified I think.

[Drumcondra 69er]

21 points - our second highest ever?

Imagine what we'd have got if we were any good!

If we had drawn at home to Russia, everything else the same, we'd have qualified I think.

Jesus, only twigged that now, we'd have been a point ahead of them had we managed to sneak an equaliser...

The original poster is bang on the money, there's an awaful of people that just bleat what ever the likes of Dunphy or those halfwits on Off the Ball come out with.

Yeas, we could play better on occasion but it's rarely as bad as is made out. Slovakia away was a decent performance this campaign as was Aremnia and Macedonia away. Andorra was professional if uninspiring both games. Dunphy asying last night we'd have no chance against anyone over 2 legs?? Outside of Russia we were ahead of every other team in the group on the head to head.

[BonnieShels]

Re otb, Early was actually echoing the sentiments of positivity last night. He was delighted and thinks we could do it in the play offs.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

It would be crazy to sack him now but I want no more of him. Given the groups he’s had it hasn’t taken a major effort to make the play offs. Like the last group he had against the better teams we’ve not won once. This campaign we’ve done it against the lesser teams and failed miserably against the teams seeded above us. I don’t think it’s been that great an effort and don’t hold any confidence still that we’ll qualify. We struggle to win games and over a two-legged affair that won’t bode us well.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

21 points - our second highest ever?

Imagine what we'd have got if we were any good!

If we had drawn at home to Russia, everything else the same, we'd have qualified I think.

Points massed by beating the mighty Andorra, Armenia (one game with the majority with 10 men) and Macedonia. No great shakes. Looks great on paper but in the four games against Russia and Slovakia, again, we've won zero games. We don't need someone on €2 million a year to beat the likes of them and to bore us to death in the process.

I hope we qualify but still want him gone. His central midfield partnership is just dreadful and playing full backs and wingers on the wrong wings is baffling.

[tetsujin1979]

Points massed by beating the mighty Andorra, Armenia (one game with the majority with 10 men) and Macedonia. No great shakes. Looks great on paper but in the four games against Russia and Slovakia, again, we've won zero games. We don't need someone on €2 million a year to beat the likes of them and to bore us to death in the process.

I hope we qualify but still want him gone. His central midfield partnership is just dreadful and playing full backs and wingers on the wrong wings is baffling.
We were the only team to take 6 points off Armenia, and Macedonia have proven more than a handful to previous Ireland teams.
Apart from the 1-0 win over Holland, a win over a higher ranked side in a qualifier is a rarity for us

[backstothewall]

That clown Dunphy described the approach last night as "worse than Charlton".

Trouble is Eamo, Charlton is our most successful manager ever. And our approach last night, whilst not pretty, worked.

They showed clip after clip of us humping 2 big long balls forward, and seemed to think that this was bad by default. What they failed to comment on was everytime we dropped a long ball into the box their centre backs looked completely terrified.

Then he showed the two goals and said it was dreadful defending and that we were lucky.

Not once in an hour or so of analysis did that they consider that trap might have noticed that their defenders were ropey under the sort of pressure we put them under, or that the last team who tried to play football with those guys got 4 put past them. There was nothing lucky about it.

Why would we have tried to play football in the middle of the park against a team who are clearly technically better than us? Trap's approach to the game was spot on.

[backstothewall]

His central midfield partnership is just dreadful and playing full backs and wingers on the wrong wings is baffling.

He plays wingers on opposite wings because Duff & McGeady have been playing on those wings for their clubs for years now, and because given we have 2 sub 6 ft strikers, he feels they are better to run at the channels between full back and centre backs, and create gaps by pulling their defence out of position, rather than getting to the touch line and putting in a cross for a 6ft4 centre back to nod away.

[mypost]

Points massed by beating the mighty Andorra, Armenia (one game with the majority with 10 men) and Macedonia. No great shakes. Looks great on paper but in the four games against Russia and Slovakia, again, we've won zero games. We don't need someone on €2 million a year to beat the likes of them and to bore us to death in the process.

I hope we qualify but still want him gone.

If you want him gone, you have to hope we don't qualify, otherwise he's still there.

Slovakia won in Moscow, but scraped past Andorra and lost 6 points to Armenia. Russia had to settle for 4 against Armenia, and struggled to beat Macedonia. We beat them both comfortably. We got results in 9 of the group games. We got results in all 10 last time. We've got good results against Italy, Russia, and France playing our way. We've won a tournament without conceding a goal. We've shot up the world rankings. Because of that, we're now seeded for the coming playoffs. That's why Trap is one of the world's greatest coach's and why he is paid the salary he is.

Style of play wins no ranking points or seeding pots. Results do. The side is unrecognisable from the shambles it was this night 4 years ago. Budding Championship Managers come here and keep telling us we can't do this and we won't do that. But we keep proving yous wrong, time and again.

[rebelmusic]

Really refreshing post above. I almost threw myself in the river lee last night people were annoying me so much. The amount of people giving out to me that O'Shea should have been left back with Coleman right full....WHAT??? Coleman hasn't played full back in donkeys and is relatively untried at international level.

Trap got the tactics spot on last night. We may have had a serious dose of luck but i really felt we were in control of the game. They were largely contained in their half. At one point it showed Armenia had 71% of possession in the previous 5 minutes and Ronnie starting ranting. He neglected to mention that 4 of those 5 minutes we were pressing them so hard that they couldn't get the ball past the half-way line.

Great performance for the most part. McGeady and Sledge had bad games - if they had been on form there would be very little to complain about.

Sick of this country constantly knocking us in football and then calling the rugby team heroes for losing to Wales

Dunphy should be ashamed. That panel badly needs someone like Sounness back to give the opposing view.

[da bishop]

i think trap has done a brilliant job,we were a shambles before he arrived,we have now some respect back.while i would love to see the total football we,d all aspire to the fact is we do not have the players for it.none of our present crop are technically gifted but are all decent enough players at the levels they play at,with maybe Given the only real world class player we have.many are not regulars at their clubs,or are out on loan at others,trap is rigid on his system because he believes its about results.Giles and Dunphy wanted Paul Jewel to be appointed a while back....nuf said.

[Sullivinho]

That panel badly needs someone like Sounness back to give the opposing view.

Give him Brady's seat. I think I'd prefer a dodgy euphemism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg3hJdq96I) to Liam's pre-match bricking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z66RpatHajQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=111s) last night.

[Stuttgart88]

If there was a "qualified thanks" button, I'd have pressed it for rebelmusic's post. I wouldn't have said "great performance for the most part".

It's not as if we got a stroke of luck when we desperately needed it. We got luck that helped our cause, but the cause looked pretty achievable even before the red card & OG. I didn't agree with Trap's assertion that Armenia were better in the first half. I usually crap myself watching Ireland & I was relaxed nearly all the way through the first half. The last 10 mins was different, mind...

[Stuttgart88]

Style of play wins no ranking points or seeding pots. Agree totally, but I still can't help think that we'd make things easier for ourselves by playing a bit better. Its not a zero sum game where playing with more cohesion and attacking intent automatically makes us more vulnerable. I think we can play on the front foot more and still be buggers to beat.

[rebelmusic]

I'm strongly of the opinion that all we're lacking is 1 midfielder. Of Whelan/Andrews, i personally prefer Whelan but they should be contenders for eachothers spot. This team is missing what Steven Reid was bringing to us. Maybe in the future the answer is McCarthy but here's the most important point - McCarthy has missed virtually all our friendlies and one of the few he bothered showing up to he got his game and didn't really prove himself. People have to stop roaring about him.

The system works, it just needs one better player in the middle to link up the play. If the back four always felt they had a midfield player to lay it off to, they wouldn't be hoofing it. They don't feel confident laying it off to whelan/andrews since they're pretty sure it'll come straight back to them.

This is what we all hoped Gibson/McCarthy/A.Reid could be, none of them have shown they can be.

[mypost]

Giles and Dunphy wanted Paul Jewel to be appointed a while back....nuf said.
The thought of Paul Jewell going to Moscow or Italy and trying to get a result, puts Trap's results out there in perspective.

Dunphy screamed on air 4 years ago, that he wanted the FAI to stop appointing "rinky-dink" coach's and to "get someone in to do the job". He then wanted Paul Jewell to drive the train to Cork. Now we have someone in doing the job who isn't a rinky-dink coach, he's "offended" by it.

You really can't please some people.

[rebelmusic]

Aye well Dunphy just likes to sensationalise. He's always ranting about the latest young player in the premiership. He was wrong about Steven Ireland, he was wrong about Andy Reid, he thought Steven Ward was a striker.

His knowledge of tactics is criminal and the sad thing is how many people in the country believe what he's saying. I had one aquaintance in a pub starting to get violent with me because i wouldnt accept that Best should be starting every irish game. It even included the argument "Look at his fantasy football stats" to which my brain replied "Please die...now".

[boovidge]

I liked the bit last night when Dunphy tried to sound like he knew about the French team but could only come up with Benzema and Evra. Also, didn't he once predict tht Alan Quinn was the saviour of Irish football?

[Supreme feet]

Also, didn't he once predict tht Alan Quinn was the saviour of Irish football?

He certainly did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBT69w2Iw2k

[Crosby87]

The negativity is premature. If we qualify we will be a nothing to lose, dangerous team in Poland/Ukraine.
If we don't make it the ****ty winter months will provide for plenty of time to have chatter about the manager. But to do it now? I dont get it. Its self flagellation.
And to the people who say we don't "deserve" to be there anyway... If you qualify within the parameters of course you deserve to be there! Everyone has the same opportunity. If you get in you get in; no ifs ands or buts.
I see a warm summer day with Ireland playing their first tournament in a decade and the fans behind Trap 100%. So it won't be pretty. What is pretty about Ireland these days? Just win baby!

[Metrostars]

Another bonus living away from Ireland: don't have to put up with the likes of Dunphy and Giles. Seriously, these guys were the analysts in the 80's. It's past time RTE gave them their retirement cheque and get young blood on the box.

We can't all be Spain or Germany or Holland with tons of talented players in depth. After that I'd fancy our chances against the rest e.g. England, France, Italy etc.

Sure we got a bit of luck yesterday but we've had more bad luck than good luck over the years so I'll take it. I'd prefer a shyte win over an agonizing loss any day of the week.

[SkStu]

My expectations are low based on Traps approach to football and as a result my expectations have been exceeded again. But, it is clear that teams have now figured out how to nullify us almost completely. Double up on the wingers and we are of limited threat - why? Because we dont allow our FBs to attack and our CMs sit so deep as to be ineffective in supporting the attack most of the time. Traps tactic is so two dimensional its frightening to think how badly a really good team will beat us. Traps been lucky as we havent faced one of those really good teams during his tenure. Italy and France both questionable at the time we played em, Russia no great shakes, Slovakia likewise. Its a strange time to be an Irish fan. In some ways I am delighted but at the same time I am fearful for what the play-offs and/or qualification has in store for us. I know a lot of people on here dont want to hear it but its the truth.

By the way, it is perfectly legitimate and to be expected that some people will want success at any cost and others will want something more than that. Those in the latter camp are entitled to criticise Trap despite results. Those in the former are entitled to focus on results and results only. As tedious as the (perceived) constant criticism of Trap might be to some, the (perceived) mindless defence of his tenure is equally as tedious to others.

But by god, i think most agree it is terrible sh1te we are watching.

[osarusan]

I'll take the results over performance all day long, but I think it's fair to ask for improvement when you genuinely believe improvement is possible.

I agree with this.

Whereas we know what the Irish team is capable under Trapattoni and the current tactics, we can only speculate as to whether we might be better with different tactics or a different coach.

And where we are now with Trapattoni is impressive - hard to beat, reasonably hard to score against, and seeded in the playoffs. We can't really argue with where we are right now. But I don't think the logical conclusion of this argument is that 'because we are in the playoffs, that vindicates everything Trapattoni has done.' Are we where we are because of his tactics, or, to some extent, in spite of them?

All a manager can be expected to do is maximise the potential of the pool of players at his disposal. As I said, all we can do is speculate as to whether this has been achieved, but in my opinion, there hasn't been the level of experimentation that I'd like. I know different players have been brought in and looked at, and on (rare) occasions, we've tried something different tactically, but I don't think Trapattoni has looked at other formations, particularly in midfield, as much as I'd have hoped he would.

The teams main deficiencies are in midfield. The argument is often made on here that we shouldn't try to play football against teams that are better than us in midfield - but I'm not sure anybody knows how well we can play football in midfield, as we've never really tried it. On the one occasion we had a prolonged spell of passing attacking football, we looked pretty good at it, and controlled the game well.

I guess Trapattoni has come to the conclusion that our best chance of success is through playing the way we do now. My issue with this is that I'm not sure he's done enough experimentation to be sure that this is the case. He settled on this system virtually from his first game, and hasn't really experimented that much (for my liking). I'd have no problem with the way we played now if I was convinced that it was the best way for us to play.

Mainly, I think I'm frustrated that we routinely hand (or boot) possession to our opponents, regardless of how bad they are.

[mypost]

I agree with this.

Whereas we know what the Irish team is capable under Trapattoni and the current tactics, we can only speculate as to whether we might be better with different tactics or a different coach.

And where we are now with Trapattoni is impressive - hard to beat, reasonably hard to score against, and seeded in the playoffs. We can't really argue with where we are right now. But I don't think the logical conclusion of this argument is that 'because we are in the playoffs, that vindicates everything Trapattoni has done.' Are we where we are because of his tactics, or, to some extent, in spite of them?

Definitely because of his tactics. We had failed to reach the previous 3 playoffs before he arrived. We have come a long way with a squad that is nowhere near how good it used to be 15-20 years ago. It took a handball to stop us going to the last finals. That was a remarkable effort considering where we were just 2 years before.

The system got us 20 points in the group, so it is effective. If we try to play a different system, then the players won't be used to it, we'll be less solid at the back, and we'll get fewer results.

[Real ale Madrid]

If we try to play a different system, then the players won't be used to it, we'll be less solid at the back, and we'll get fewer results.

That's your opinion - not the statement of fact it seems to be there.

Overall I think Trap has done a good job – but as I’ve said earlier, there is a certain time where we are going to have to go out, and win a game against a decent team. My feeling is his style is only going to get you so far. I felt that after the home game against France two years ago – and then we came out and looked like a completely different side and almost booked our place in the finals. If we come out and do the same thing this time around then I’ll be thrilled, thrilled for everyone who supports this team – but the question remains why we can’t be more positive on a regular basis – we’ve shown at certain stages that we improve as a team if we become more positive, so why not do it ?

On anther issue – I have to wonder why Giles and Dunphy had to hijack this thread – they weren’t mentioned in the OP. Do they have a role in forming our expectations? While I respect Giles – Dunphy has only ever been someone who states the obvious on air.