Republic of Ireland V Armenia - Tuesday, 11th October 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Bottle of Tonic]

And on the players. Whelan and Andrews are there for the graft and a limited amount of passing. Often they do neither well and we still get a result. Thought last night the graft, pressure and application was outstanding. Some great stand up tackles, hassling and pressure. More than one way to play effective football.

Central defence immense as usual.

Mcgeady woeful. But they has 3 on him from the first whistle and the confidence soon went. Not easy to beat three men wedged out on a sideline but as usual decsion making was frustrating and shooting atrocious

Duffer - good. As usual.

Cox- Mighty shift. Fair play.
Doyle won every header but seemed to lose the discipline a wee bit. Frustrated player at the mo?
.

[BonnieShels]

We played a really good attacking game against Yugoslavia at home in the Euro 2000 qualifiers. Probably the best performance I've ever seen by an Irish team.

100% agree.

Wonderful game that night. One if our best.

Mark Kennedy scored a cracker that night too.

[tetsujin1979]

I actually think we missed Gibson last night.
I said in the pub after the game that, if ever a situation was tailor made for Gibson it was a rookie keeper in goals, with the opposition down to ten men. He'd just sit 5 yards outside the penalty area and shoot on sight.
Add in his passing ability against a tiring side and I genuinely think he would have been perfect.

[geysir]

The keeper clearly has his hands down as he's leaving the box, and only raises them when Cox shoots (and when he's three or four yards outside the box)
Yeah, that's what went down.
It has all the appearance of a stonewall red card.

[ifk101]

I said in the pub after the game that, if ever a situation was tailor made for Gibson it was a rookie keeper in goals, with the opposition down to ten men. He'd just sit 5 yards outside the penalty area and shoot on sight.
Add in his passing ability against a tiring side and I genuinely think he would have been perfect.


myself and my mate I went to the game with both agreed when Doyle came on that Walters was the ideal player to have up front alone when down to ten men, he'll win the ball in the air, keep possession, and bring midfield into the play.
Which is pretty much what he did.

The North are looking for a new tactical genius if you are interested.

[tetsujin1979]

The North are looking for a new tactical genius if you are interested.
I think they'll need access to a higher power than me to improve!
Besides, everyone is an expert after the event.

[geysir]

When it came down to the team crossing the line under McCarthy and Kerr, we were powder puff.
We were puff against 2 ordinary sides, Belgium & Turkey and twice against the better team, Switzerland.
There are occasions when you can remember a game where we played good football, but mostly we played modest football and we had Roy Keane.

[gormacha]

The hoof up to Doyle worked., no harm in exploiting it.

Fair enough, but we'll never know if playing football against them would have worked better. I think it would have.

Personally, I found last night - and our default position generally under Trappatoni - to be soul-destroying. Lumping the ball sixty yards in the hope we will win the knockdown isn't my idea of football. Especially when on the few occasions we actually play on the deck, we show we can do it. And it's more effective.

Does anyone disagree that during the fifteen minutes after half-time, when we got the ball down, we were at our most comfortable? It seems glaringly obvious to me.

[Stuttgart88]

I watched the game with Paul O'Shea last night and telling him that I consider there to be two types of passes: speculative passes and measured passes.

By nature, the former often lead to lost possession. We play far too many speculative passes in my opinion, especially as we don't put pressure on the ball when we lose it.

We look better when we try and play it.

Maybe they're afraid, not of Trap - just lacking in confidence to play it properly. Russia at home was the first time I think we started using long balls as Plan A. Before that we p[layed some long ball stuff but at the start of Trap's reign we tried to play ball properly, just without committing men forward and making sure we were in good shape when we lost possession. I think it's changed to an extent this campaign.

[bishbash]

I watched the game with Paul O'Shea last night and telling him that I consider there to be two types of passes: speculative passes and measured passes.

By nature, the former often lead to lost possession. We play far too many speculative passes in my opinion, especially as we don't put pressure on the ball when we lose it.

We look better when we try and play it.

Maybe they're afraid, not of Trap - just lacking in confidence to play it properly. Russia at home was the first time I think we started using long balls as Plan A. Before that we p[layed some long ball stuff but at the start of Trap's reign we tried to play ball properly, just without committing men forward and making sure we were in good shape when we lost possession. I think it's changed to an extent this campaign.

I think Ireland have gone backwards under trap, yes we have gotten to the playoff but lets be honest in a pretty mediocre group. Also I fear for us regardless of who we get in the playoffs. To see St Ledger as a 1st choice sums it up for me. He played in a side that was relegated to league one last season and has hardly kicked a ball this season. I keep hearing this thing about he's brave, he throws himself infront of things when we are being battered by teams. What about bravery in trying to get on a ball and pass it. We have some decent talent coming through like Ciaran Clarke, McCarthy, Coleman and people like kevin foley deserve a fairer crack of the whip. Look at Wales recently at how some encouragement to play decent football can have results.

[legendz]

It's not a bad thing shipping that goal the last night. In true Irish form, had the clean sheet run continued, our next opponent will be scoring in the first minute. At least now there won't be any of this press hype on that going into the game. Conceding the goal should also focus minds, it's always good to have something to focus on and improve on.

[outspoken]

We'd want to play better than that to qualify. Armenia were very good on the ball even with 10 men and I was shocked when they took off their number 8 and 10 everything was going through them. Armenia did their homework they knew our 2 central midfielders had no real threat so instead they put 2 or 3 men on mcgeady and duff in possesion.

We didn't use the wingers well enough especially duff, mcgeady was pure muck only in the way out there constantly drifting in leaving us with no width especially as we don't have overlapping full backs.

Cox was fantastic, Doyle did very well he won every flick on and Walters was magnificent when he came on, so we won't have to worry if keane doesn't make it back, bring on Estonia!

[geysir]

Armenia did their homework they knew our 2 central midfielders had no real threat so instead they put 2 or 3 men on mcgeady and duff in possesion.
In keeping an eye over both shoulders on McGeady and Duff, combined with the awareness of our CM, meant that Armenia had their least effective performance and made little impact against us. We scooped the ball of their CM so many times. We saw little of the Armenia that ripped Slovakia, Macedonia and Russia to shreds. For the most part, the danger was cut off at the pass.

And we all know that playing against 10 is dangerous, except when playing against 9, when it is unpredictably dangerous.

[boovidge]

I think Ireland have gone backwards under trap, yes we have gotten to the playoff but lets be honest in a pretty mediocre group. Also I fear for us regardless of who we get in the playoffs. To see St Ledger as a 1st choice sums it up for me. He played in a side that was relegated to league one last season and has hardly kicked a ball this season. I keep hearing this thing about he's brave, he throws himself infront of things when we are being battered by teams. What about bravery in trying to get on a ball and pass it. We have some decent talent coming through like Ciaran Clarke, McCarthy, Coleman and people like kevin foley deserve a fairer crack of the whip. Look at Wales recently at how some encouragement to play decent football can have results.

St Ledger has consistently performed for us.the last thing we need is a switch for the sake of it.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I agree. I don't care who he is playing for, his performances for Ireland have generally been very good and assured.

[bishbash]

St Ledger has consistently performed for us.the last thing we need is a switch for the sake of it.

Its difficult to talk about playing better football while being happy with a guy that just lumps the ball 60 yards everytime. Other than that i just think that he's generally very poor.

[Stuttgart88]

SSL defends well. The deficiencies in ball use lie elsewhere in my opinion.

Sure, at one point Dunne played a long ball that must have missed the nearest Irishman by 40 yards.

[Sullivinho]

Sure, at one point Dunne played a long ball that must have missed the nearest Irishman by 40 yards.

"Going long is the easy way out for some people and it is never going to be good enough"

Not if you overhit it by 40 yards Richard!

[Noelys Guitar]

Looking back on last nights game. Missing our top scorer. Missing a left back. O'Shea only recently back from injury. Whelan was carrying an injury. Doyle (completely out of character) losing the head. And yet we never looked in any real danger against a very good side. I still believe we would have won if there keeper had not been sent off. All this in a match of serious importance for both teams. Trapatonni prepared the squad for the last two games brilliantly. The mentality of the players was spot on for both games. Never underestimate that part of football. We will be equally well prepared for the play-offs. I wouldn't fancy drawing us if I was any of the non seeded teams. There is no advantage to playing us at home for any of the 4 non seeds. I include Turkey in that. I can't see any of them beating us in either game.

[dr_peepee]

I agree with you on most points, esp re preperation and mentallity. But I can't ignore that any of the definitive positives in the Armenia game had nothing to do with Trap or our players. I'm not as certain we would have beaten them had the keeper not been sent off. That said, a draw would have done so I still think we'd have made the play offs...

[pineapple stu]

That said, a draw would have done so I still think we'd have made the play offs...
Would we have been unseeded with a draw though? The win could be vital yet, in that case.

I agree with Noely that we would have won the match regardless of the red card though.

[BonnieShels]

Defo with Stu and Noely on this one.

[SwanVsDalton]

Yup. It wouldn't have been pretty but I'm certain we'd have ground it out. Irrelevant speculation anyway but a lot of people I've spoken to are convinced we'd have been beaten or drawn if it wern't for the sending off. Can't see it.

[BonnieShels]

We were so comfortable before the sending off. They were reduced to pot shots from outside the box. Nothing happened of note in our box.

[SwanVsDalton]

We were so comfortable before the sending off. They were reduced to pot shots from outside the box. Nothing happened of note in our box.

Bang on. We were creating the best chances with none of the ball. We would've started asserting ourselves before half-time, grabbed a goal or two and then hung on for the last 20 like we always do.

[Sullivinho]

Armenia file protest over keeper's red card. (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/13102011/2/armenia-file-protest-keeper-red-card.html)

[pineapple stu]

Seems all they want is the suspension rescinded? Though given the keeper's 37 years old, he's probably going to be retiring ahead of the next campaign. Maybe they just want to hear they were robbed.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't see how they can say it clearly hit his chest. Fair enough if they rescind the card having seen the evidence but it would be a very close one.

[geysir]

At least they are not sinking so low as to ask for a replay,
who on earth would do a thing like that?

[pineapple stu]

We should have them as the 17th team in the Euros.

[ifk101]

Judging by the positioning of the Armenian goalkeeper's arms when the ball strikes him, there is a clear and deliberate attempt to stop an eventual lob over his head by raising his arms. He can't have any compliants imo.

[punkrocket]

It just came back to me now. What was that eejit of a PA man doing on the pitch at half time? and when he tried to a Come on ye going?

[Yard of Pace]

It just came back to me now. What was that eejit of a PA man doing on the pitch at half time? and when he tried to a Come on ye going?

That was Tom Dunne and it was one of the worst performances in the history of Lansdowne Road.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have vague memories of Brush Shiels singing Whiskey in the Jar or another Thin Lizzy song before a game a few years back. It might have been that awful night Cyprus came within minutes of doing the double over us. Suffice to say it put the dour quality of the football in perspective.

[nigel-harps1954]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition-to-have-Ireland-Armenia-replayed/223313224399828?sk=wall

What an absolute legend.

[tricky_colour]

OccupyLansdowneRoad

Armenian's Occupy Lansdowne Road

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2011/1013/1224305728396.html

:)

[gormacha]

Judging by the positioning of the Armenian goalkeeper's arms when the ball strikes him, there is a clear and deliberate attempt to stop an eventual lob over his head by raising his arms. He can't have any compliants imo.

This is the second time this argument has been made on this thread. It is not relevant if he intended to handle the ball unless he handles the ball.

Personally I still can't be sure if he did or not. The video evidence is inconclusive. I'm baffled by all the posts that say he definitely did handle it and equally baffled by those posts that say he definitely did not handle it.

[jbyrne]

I think Ireland have gone backwards under trap

from stan???

[SwanVsDalton]

This is the second time this argument has been made on this thread. It is not relevant if he intended to handle the ball unless he handles the ball.

Personally I still can't be sure if he did or not. The video evidence is inconclusive. I'm baffled by all the posts that say he definitely did handle it and equally baffled by those posts that say he definitely did not handle it.

Given the replays are fairly inconclusive, is it not fair to say it's relevant that he raised his hands? To the letter of the law it makes no difference, but realistically keeper's hands stay down (as they should've), there's no argument. It was silly and I've little sympathy for him.

[gormacha]

Given the replays are fairly inconclusive, is it not fair to say it's relevant that he raised his hands? To the letter of the law it makes no difference, but realistically keeper's hands stay down (as they should've), there's no argument. It was silly and I've little sympathy for him.

Then we agree, no?

[SwanVsDalton]

Then we agree, no?

No. I've stated why it's relevant to the discussion. Keeper should keep his hands down when five yards outside his box - if he does that no sending off, no argument.

The letter of the law would only apply if we could make a conclusive argument either way. Since we appear to agree it's inconclusive, the keeper should rightly feel silly he let himself get into the situation in the first place.

[geysir]

Given the replays are fairly inconclusive, is it not fair to say it's relevant that he raised his hands? To the letter of the law it makes no difference, but realistically keeper's hands stay down (as they should've), there's no argument. It was silly and I've little sympathy for him.

Surely intent is not a red card offense for hand ball unless contact is made?

I'd say the refs red card decision is final unless it can be proved otherwise. The goalie will have a hard time proving that.
Or can the adjudicating panel say there is some doubt, therefore the red card is rescinded? I think that's unlikely.
What the goalie can't legitimately dispute is that he did not make it easy for anyone to believe he did not handle the ball.
Maybe his mother believes him, but deep down maybe she has her doubts, but will stand by him.

It is ironic that we do benefit from such a controversy in such an important decider game - even if their goalie created the controversy.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think he's saying the other way around: that hand ball is not a red card offense unless there's intent. Intent is defined broadly though and certainly the combination of inadvertent contact with the arm + the intention to block the ball with his arms if necessary would make it a red card offense.

[Closed Account]

I think he's saying the other way around: that hand ball is not a red card offense unless there's intent. Intent is defined broadly though and certainly the combination of inadvertent contact with the arm + the intention to block the ball with his arms if necessary would make it a red card offense.
A red card for hand ball is for denying a goalscoring opportunity, it hasn't got anything to do with intent. Intent is a yellow.

[geysir]

A red card for hand ball is for denying a goalscoring opportunity, it hasn't got anything to do with intent. Intent is a yellow.

So if you intend to stop the ball with your hands but you miss the ball, then that's a yellow card offense?

[Charlie Darwin]

A red card for hand ball is for denying a goalscoring opportunity, it hasn't got anything to do with intent. Intent is a yellow.
Sorry, yeah, but the intent determines if it was a foul is what I should have said.

[BonnieShels]

There's no intent if you miss it because no offence would have been committed. It's not murder.

I must check this out.

[Closed Account]

So if you intend to stop the ball with your hands but you miss the ball, then that's a yellow card offense?
What? No? How could you get a yellow for not handballing it. Intentional handball is a yellow, it was implied.


Four examples:
attacker or defender handles the ball to gain
control
•
foul, no misconduct
---------------------------
defender handles the ball to break up
attacking play
•
foul, misconduct (caution for unsporting behaviour)
-------------------------------
attacker handles the ball in an attempt to
score a goal
•
foul, misconduct (caution for unsporting behaviour)
-----------------------------
defender handles the ball to prevent a goal
•
foul, misconduct (send off for preventing the goal)

[geysir]

What? No? How could you get a yellow for not handballing it. Intentional handball is a yellow, it was implied.

You can get a yellow if the ref believes/assumes you handled it.
Our dear friend, the Armenian goalie, intended to handle the ball and deprive a goalscoring opportunity, but he is claiming the ball did not hit his hand
And there appears to be no conclusive proof, either way
But in the event of an appeal, I believe the ref's decision is final unless proved otherwise

[Closed Account]

You can get a yellow if the ref believes/assumes you handled it.
Our dear friend, the Armenian goalie, intended to handle the ball and deprive a goalscoring opportunity, but he is claiming the ball did not hit his hand
And there appears to be no conclusive proof, either way
But in the event of an appeal, I believe the ref's decision is final unless proved otherwise
Well I firmly believe he handled it. Look at the trajectory of the ball after it hits his chest. An upward lob from Cox, hitting him should bounce up the way yes? Wel it doesn't, it never goes higher than his outstretched arms and bounces at a downward angle away. 1 conclusion, handball.