Republic of Ireland V Armenia - Tuesday, 11th October 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Stuttgart88]

it never goes higher than his outstretched arms and bounces at a downward angle away. 1 conclusion, handball.That's what I thought - not quite immediately, because in real time I thought it was chest, but quickly afterwards. However I also thought that the ball rebounded back so far that it must have come off something hard, like his chest.

Cox should have just hit it higher and ended all debate!

[geysir]

Well I firmly believe he handled it. Look at the trajectory of the ball after it hits his chest. An upward lob from Cox, hitting him should bounce up the way yes? Wel it doesn't, it never goes higher than his outstretched arms and bounces at a downward angle away. 1 conclusion, handball.
That's a belief, an assumption there was a hand ball involved.
It's a belief I had also, but I have to say there is no conclusive proof, there may well be other explanations for the flight of the ball and fwiw, Cox was uncertain "I don't think it was a handball by the keeper".

[Bottle of Tonic]

I find the goalie sending off debate quite interesting in terms of how do you view it objectively. Armenians must be sick that they were down to 10 so early in the game for an offence that they believe didn't appear to happen (personally I'm about 60/40 that it hits his chest and is no handball). However, they should be equally sickened that he charged out, arms aloft while being lobbed well outside the penalty box. I know I would be if it was Ireland. It appears there was technically no offence (much debate on this above) but he was asking for it (yes you ARE asking for it with arms aloft to block a ball/put the attacker off outside the box - would a defender do it? It's outside the box - no difference between defender and goalie). So the ref is left with no margin for error.

Think about another incident in the same game, same half only earlier and at the other end of the field. Armenia break into the Irish box one on one. Given rushes out to close down the attacker and goes to slide down as the Armenian predictably knocks it wide past him, hoping to be taken out and win the inevitable peno and straight red. How many times do we see this situation in football?
But Given is a top goalie, out-psyching the attacker with a wee slide and no chance of contact leaving only a blatant dive as an option for his opponent as the ball runs out of play, which he doesn't take up, thankfully.

How many times have we seen keepers clumsily flail down with arm outstretched as the striker boots it out of play past him only for the purposely dangling leg to meet arm/body (or often clear olympic dive and no contact) and the aforementioned peno/red card combo awarded? Might technically be a foul (or should it be if ball is running out of play?) and when it happens to my team Im always ****ed with the striker for 'conning' a peno, but I'm even more sickened with my keeper for being a fool falling for the blatant con.

But Given didn't do that cos he's a top,top,top,top keepah. And their boy was a goontard. End of.

[BonnieShels]

I'm so stealing Goontard.

[elroy]

No doubt Shay is a top keeper, top lad and has been a great servant to the green jersey.

But the goal conceded on Tuesday night was one of the poorest from his perspective for us. Should've have at least parried it away IMO.

Interesting from Estonia's recent results that they appear to achieve better results away than at home. Not all that dissimilar to ourselves. I hope the win in Belgrade was a once off flash in the pan cost to go there and win is a serious result.

[tetsujin1979]

I thought he was slightly unsighted by St Ledger in front of him?

[Stuttgart88]

The ball also swung in further than he expected. Still a poor effort mind.

wrt rushing out, he did very well to pull out. He got lucky in Paris moments before the Henry handball. He committed himsel;f and didn't make it. I hate seeing keepers do that. It's so predictable. No danger, rush of blood, penalty.

Handball or no handball, the Armenia keeper was asking for trouble charging out, arms aloft like he was a flanker rushing to charge a fly half's clearance kick. I think it was probably the wrong decision but not a heinous error. Everything about it probably looked like handball to the ref.

btw, I watched a bit of Leeds v Doncaster last night. On 73 mins Doncaster took a shot, Leeds FB was standing upright, ball hit the Leeds FB's chest in a similar place, and the ball bounced down! Joe_d's explanation might not stand up to scrituny in this light :)

[SwanVsDalton]

I thought he was slightly unsighted by St Ledger in front of him?

He was - said so after the game. In fairness to Shay he said he should've done better, while citing being unsighted. He saw and late and was diving backwards but was annoyed at himself though said he wouldn't beat himself up too much since they got the result. Fair dues.

[tricky_colour]

Yep fair do's the Armenia's deserved a goal anyway, and indeed the scored 2.
Was clever of the Armenian to shoot from any unsighted position make it hard
to pick up the flight of the ball.

[paul_oshea]

et
btw, I watched a bit of Leeds v Doncaster last night. On 73 mins Doncaster took a shot, Leeds FB was standing upright, ball hit the Leeds FB's chest in a similar place, and the ball bounced down! Joe_d's explanation might not stand up to scrituny in this light :)

Stutts I thought with your background you would have realised this. I'm 98 percent sure that he didn't handle it. trajectory/gravity has nothing to do with it, I mean how can you say he was standing upright at a 90 degree angle, even so hit a ball at a wall going up, depending on spin etc it wont always bounce back up at an angle. The one thing I am unsure about and thats why I left 2% margin of error is that at some point after bouncing off his chest it brushed his arm. This is the part that is hardest figure out.

[Stuttgart88]

My background? I haven't done geometry or physics since my inter!

Was responding to joe_d's belief...

[geysir]

For me (being geometrically deficient) the tv replays are inconclusive but Cox's eye witness post-match statement, carries considerable weight.

[paul_oshea]

Sorry stutts, i keep thinking for some reason you majored(haha) in maths and minored in physics :) NTS there :)

[geysir]

http://www.armradio.am/news/?part=sport&id=21104

Arm radio reports that UEFA have refused to rescind the red card dished out to the Armenian goalie.

'Earlier, Armenia filed an official protest to UEFA over decisions by the referee in EURO 2012 qualifier, looking to have goalkeeper Roman Berezovsky’s red card rescinded.
Berezovsky was sent off by Spanish referee Eduardo Gonzalez after 26 minutes for handball outside his area but TV replays clearly showed he chested the ball clear'


Clarity is an easily obtained perspective for the eagle eyed Armenians.

[Grafter]

One result that took the breath away this week in WC qualifying was Armenia whipping Denmark 4-0! in Copenhagen.... Amazing, the Danes must be in a bad way coz they've always been fairly consistent but won't qualify now.... Didn't Armenia also whip Slovakia away 4-0 in Euro 2012 qualifying too? If only they could find consistency....

[paul_oshea]

They beat them 4-0 and 3-1.

I think that's the key difference and it will prove so at the end of this campaign, there was a team capable of beating those closest to us in the group that were ranked below us. We need something like that now really, and unfortunately we don't have a team in our group to do that.

[Closed Account 2]

I would say there is a chance of an upset when the Swedes visit Kazakhstan. Armenia did well to beat Denmark away, but the match before they lost home to Malta, they are a team that can play very well if they have confidence - I remember reading somewhere that in the last 4 years they've only lost 1 and drawn 2 games when they've taken the lead.

[Stuttgart88]

What would we have done if we'd gone 1 up in Denmark?

[CraftyToePoke]

What would we have done if we'd gone 1 up in Denmark?

Taken off our ball players and lost 2-1. * Probably

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hung on for grim death to that goal. And probably failed to win. The evidence is all about us, when we take a lead v. an 'equal'.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, I agree. We don't have that "they're there for the taking" instinct.

[CraftyToePoke]

Yep, I agree. We don't have that "they're there for the taking" instinct.

As Austria were for a period recently you mean ? Well, I thought they were anyway.

[DeLorean]

Yep, I agree. We don't have that "they're there for the taking" instinct.

We lost that killer instinct when Stan left

Denmark 0 Republic of Ireland 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLQIPF0Rrw)

[Stuttgart88]

As Austria were for a period recently you mean ? Well, I thought they were anyway.
They absolutely were there for the taking. We blew it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yep, I agree. We don't have that "they're there for the taking" instinct.

Except we should. And something that all the 'glass half-full' brigade choose to ignore.
As the fault, IMO, belongs to Trap and his often dubious tactics.

[BonnieShels]

They absolutely were there for the taking. We blew it.

I feel like you slammed each letter of that post "typewriter style".

[OwlsFan]

Except we should. And something that all the 'glass half-full' brigade choose to ignore.
As the fault, IMO, belongs to Trap and his often dubious tactics.

Better than being in the "glass is half empty" brigade. Since that match, there have been numerous games with last minute goals. Why didn't all those sides go on and win comfortably? Because unless you're Man U or Barca etc, it seldom works like that. We are probably slightly better than Austria but certainly not 2 or 3 goals better and they weren't there "for the taking". Easy to say but I don't agree they were. It is natural and has been since time immemorial to fall back and try and defend a lead as time ticks down. The mistake that was made was not making a substitution in the 91st minute. Remember when we took the lead against Italy. They were there "for the taking". O'Shea overlaps down the wing, is caught out of position and Italians attack and equalise.

Never thought I'd be typing this in an old Armenian thread.

[paul_oshea]

The thing is we always looked like scoring under stan but we always looked like conceding also.

Trap came in and said his first job was to make us stronger defensively and to concede little. He did that initially but now we dont ever look like scoring but we do concede. Perhaps with those changes we would look like scoring again.

[Crosby87]

Do you know the Turks still won't admit that they massacred the armenians? I know b/c there is a big sign in front of an armenian church that says so.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Better than being in the "glass is half empty" brigade. Since that match, there have been numerous games with last minute goals. Why didn't all those sides go on and win comfortably? Because unless you're Man U or Barca etc, it seldom works like that. We are probably slightly better than Austria but certainly not 2 or 3 goals better and they weren't there "for the taking". Easy to say but I don't agree they were. It is natural and has been since time immemorial to fall back and try and defend a lead as time ticks down. The mistake that was made was not making a substitution in the 91st minute. Remember when we took the lead against Italy. They were there "for the taking". O'Shea overlaps down the wing, is caught out of position and Italians attack and equalise.
Take your point, but his whole mindset is so defensive. It's all about not conceding, when we don't have players quite good enough.
So a bit more attacking endeavour would be welcome on occasion.

[paul_oshea]

The Armenians aren't liked in LA Crosby.

[geysir]

In the latest Armenia related news, Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers shows intent with £20m move for Armenia midfielder Henrikh Mkhitaryan. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/10122026/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-shows-intent-with-20m-move-for-Armenia-midfielder-Henrikh-Mkhitaryan.html)

[DeLorean]

Bumping thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12yczZm0eZg

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.