Euro 88 v England - ESPN Classic at 10

[Drumcondra 69er]

Just giving a heads up, hours highlights on ESPN Classic this evening at 10 if anyone's sitting in....

[Stuttgart88]

Dammit, missed it. I have it on a grainy VHS somewhere but would love to have recorded that digitally.

[jbyrne]

Dammit, missed it. I have it on a grainy VHS somewhere but would love to have recorded that digitally.

it appears on ebay from time to time on DVD. picked up a copy with ITV commentary not so long ago

[tetsujin1979]

Dammit, missed it. I have it on a grainy VHS somewhere but would love to have recorded that digitally.
entirely possible it was recorded last night. Was it the English or RTE commentary?

[IsMiseSean]

It's be shown again today at 3.45 and probably during the week too.
English commentary Brian Moore & Big Ron

[OwlsFan]

Big Ron was obviously commentating from the studio. Nice to see Jack singing along to Cockles & Muscles at the beginning. I actually appear in the crowd. Must freeze frame it and take a picture. What a day.

Alridge was on his 15th game without scoring. Frank S was nearing the end of his career and had just come back from injury I think. Chris Morris was the poorest player in the side and rarely passed to his own team mates. Had just left Wednesday to go to Celtic. Wonder what he's up to now. Big Mick and Kevin M were at the heart of the defence not exactly blessed with speed but were protected by the one and only Paul McGrath. The other Wednesday connection was Tony Galvin but again nothing special. The great players of that team were McGrath, Houghton and Whelan but the rest were a mixture of good and ordinary.

Mixing with the present day team it would be imho 1 Given, 2 C Hughton, 3 Ward, 4 Moran, 5 Dunne, 6 McGrath, 7 Duff, 8 Whelan, 9 Keane, 10 Doyle, 11 Houghton (6 present day vs 5).

[bwagner]

Chris Morris runs a bakery in cornwall i believe

[ArdeeBhoy]

4 Moran, 5 Dunne, 6 McGrath,

Ireland's three toughest ever players in one team...cool, as the youth would say.

[Stuttgart88]

Wouldn't they say "sick" these days? Or is that only where I live?

[Sullivinho]

Moran, Dunne and McGrath would pwn.

[tetsujin1979]

Wouldn't they say "sick" these days? Or is that only where I live?
it would be "savage" in the local dialect

[OwlsFan]

Chris Morris runs a bakery in cornwall i believe

Cornish pasties then I assume would be on the menu if we ever visit him.

[Paddy Garcia]

Ireland's three toughest ever players in one team...cool, as the youth would say.

Lucky you never came up against Giles.

[IsMiseSean]

Wouldn't they say "sick" these days? Or is that only where I live?

'Epic' perhaps??
We're really showing our age....

[the bear]

they're all rapid sayings in fairness

[geysir]

The match is available for download from Irish Torrents, Gorgeous George is the commentator, it was recorded from Setanta Sports Classic and uploaded 5 months ago. England were cruelly denied in that game, some think Russia in Moscow was the only high profile game where we got pummeled and still hung on to the end.
Also available there is the Holland v Ireland from 9/9/81 when Stapleton was in his prime. I´d reckon that was our best ever competitive away qualifier game against a top team. In those days, a home win and an away draw against the WC runners-up was just meat and drink.

[theworm2345]

Cornish pasties then I assume would be on the menu if we ever visit him.
Yes, it is in fact a cornish pasty shop as opposed to a normal bakery as I recall, I think its even called Morris's Cornish Pasties.

The match is available for download from Irish Torrents, Gorgeous George is the commentator, it was recorded from Setanta Sports Classic and uploaded 5 months ago. England were cruelly denied in that game, some think Russia in Moscow was the only high profile game where we got pummeled and still hung on to the end.
Also available there is the Holland v Ireland from 9/9/81 when Stapleton was in his prime. I´d reckon that was our best ever competitive away qualifier game against a top team. In those days, a home win and an away draw against the WC runners-up was just meat and drink.
Do you have any invites? Would be much obliged if you could pass one on :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Moran, Dunne and McGrath would pwn.

:confused:


Lucky you never came up against Giles.

You played against him? Johnny might have been dirtier, but he's no centre-back, which is why I'd make those 3 tougher.
Though Dunne only earned his stripes after Moscow! ;)

[paul_oshea]

This is the thing, I always thought people look back, as always with nostalgia where the reality is rather clouded. We hadn't an unbelievable amount of quality players like you are often led to believe we had a few with a load of work horses, but the quantity of quality opposition was far less. That is what gets me when people say about Trap and what he has. 5/6 of the players at least would get straight into any of the teams from 88 - 94.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Holland in 'Euro'88 were as good as European side now, excluding Spain...

[geysir]

That is what gets me when people say about Trap and what he has. 5/6 of the players at least would get straight into any of the teams from 88 - 94.
Is there one central midfielder from the present generation who would get into any competitive Irish team from 1973 to 1994?
What Trap has now is a huge squad of average standard players and 3 or 4 of them are very good.

In the 80's for example, we had maybe 8 or 9 great/very good players and the rest were below average. Not enough depth to get good results consistently.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No to any of our current midfield*. Given, Dunne, Robbie, St.Ledger would all have been in the team or squad.
* Ireland, McCarthy, A.Reid might be considered if they didn't all have 'issues'....

As the Iceman says, we weren't always managed too well.
Fair play to Jack for putting us on the map. Not just with this game, but before & after.

[paul_oshea]

I think the 5 I said from the time period mentioned in my earlier post, we would have Given, Duff, Keane, Dunne and one of oshea/mcgeady/doyle(not on current form).

The point I agree on is our CM is currently severely lacking and is probably what has us that level below where we could/should be.

From a bigger point of view its an interesting observation based on your first question, that Central Midfield is probably the most important aspect in which we are currently lacking, but also for any decent level team, as they provide the spark for going forward, creating chances, silck movement, but also the shield to the back four. The Central cog that keeps it all moving.

[shakermaker1982]

if anybody else spots this on the planner can you post it in here? I've had a look till Sunday and it isn't listed but if they change it I'd love to see it.

I was 6. If only I was in my 20s at the time....

[Drumcondra 69er]

This is the thing, I always thought people look back, as always with nostalgia where the reality is rather clouded. We hadn't an unbelievable amount of quality players like you are often led to believe we had a few with a load of work horses, but the quantity of quality opposition was far less. That is what gets me when people say about Trap and what he has. 5/6 of the players at least would get straight into any of the teams from 88 - 94.

1 Pat Bonner (Celtic)
2 Chris Morris (Celtic)
3 Chris Hughton (Spurs)
4 Mick Mccarthy (Celtic)
5 Kevin Moran (Man U)
6 Ronnie Whelan (Liverpool)
7 Paul McGrath (Man U)
8 Ray Houghton (Liverpool)
9 John William Aldridge (Liverpool)
10 Francis Stapleton (Derby, left Man U in 87)
11 Tony Galvin (Sheff Weds)

In fairness, the difference is that in 88 most of the team were playing at the top level for top clubs, 3 at Celtic when the gap between Scotland and England was at it's smallest due to the Euro ban, 3 at Liverpool, 2 at Man U and one at Spurs. Plus 1 who'd left Man u and 1 who's left Spurs the previous year. All of these players had spent time challenging for trophies and every one of them had won something in their career. Celtic won the double that year, Liverpool won the league, Moran and McGrath had won FA Cups with Man U, Stapleton with Man U and Arsenal, Galvin and Hughton with Spurs, it was a team of winners.

No comparison with todays squad, it can't be compared like for like.

[paul_oshea]

Ya but with the ban on English teams the level they were at relative to what other European teams were at can't be compared either.

Also nowadays to be playing mid level premier league is a decent achievement given the amount of players from abroad in their and the quality.

Just because the gap was closer between England and Scotland means nothing in terms of how good it actually was. If anything it states more how average the leagues were probably.

[Bungle]

Ya but with the ban on English teams the level they were at relative to what other European teams were at can't be compared either.

Also nowadays to be playing mid level premier league is a decent achievement given the amount of players from abroad in their and the quality.

Just because the gap was closer between England and Scotland means nothing in terms of how good it actually was. If anything it states more how average the leagues were probably.

Generally, the English league has improved massively. However, the great Liverpool teams of the 70s and 80s would be outstanding in any era or any league and Whelan was a truly world class player. Houghton was one of the finest players in his position in Europe also and Aldo a goal poacher supreme who went to Spain and showed he could score goals in any top league (admittedly his early career with Ireland was poor).
McGrath was quite simply one of the top 3 central defenders of his era. Both Baggio and Baresi had him in their world cup X1s after 94, when if anything he was nothing compared to how he was in 1988/1990.
Moran was a very very good player, who might not have been world class, but would have walked into the English team of his era. I would say he is at least about the equal of Dunne.
Bonner was a good/very good goalie, although nothing compared to the world class Shay.
Hughton was a very decent full back, who was a vital player for Spurs, while Galvin was a player who played at a high level also.
Stapleton was one of the best strikers of his era in England, but was in decline by 88.
The rest of the players in that team were nothing special in terms of talent, but McCarthy for example was an inspirational captain.

I would say only Given, Duff and Keane would be certain starters if you combined 88 and 2011. However, Dunne would probably partner Moran in the centre of defence, as I would give him the nod over Mick. Doyle or Long would probably get the nod over an ageing Stapleton, but not sure they would have got the nod over Aldo.

[Bungle]

O'Shea would get the nod over Morris, who was a very average player.

[paul_oshea]

So that's a potential 6.:)

over half a team.

[pineapple stu]

But it's a close call between the current best and the 88 worst (e.g. O'Shea/Morris or Dunne/McCarthy) while there's no contest at all between the current worst and the 88 best (e.g. McGrath/Andrews or Whelan/Whelan). Overall, the 88 team was a lot better than the current team.

[geysir]

Doyle or Long would probably get the nod over an ageing Stapleton, but not sure they would have got the nod over Aldo.

Stapleton was far from finished in 1988 and I would pick him ahead of Doyle and Long for any game that year.

[BonnieShels]

Stapleton was far from finished in 1988 and I would pick him ahead of Doyle and Long for any game that year.

I would too.

The usual compelling call to introduce youth would have been aghast at the attempt at Jack to use a front two containing a 4 and a half year old and a barely one year old.

Stapo all the way.

[OwlsFan]

This is the thing, I always thought people look back, as always with nostalgia where the reality is rather clouded. We hadn't an unbelievable amount of quality players like you are often led to believe we had a few with a load of work horses, but the quantity of quality opposition was far less. That is what gets me when people say about Trap and what he has. 5/6 of the players at least would get straight into any of the teams from 88 - 94.

That's what I said above and picked the mixed team. Rose tinted glasses and all that. I suppose the difference was that our top players then were some way ahead of our top players now (McGrath, Whelan, Houghton).

I agree with ArdeeBhoy. That Holland team of 88 was top class and pretty much played us off the pitch at Gelsenkirchen but we hung in there and only lost to a flukey goal in the end. The game had also somewhat unfairly been played on the Dutch border and the ground was just a sea of orange with our green mass swamped. A unique experience being at a tournament for which we had qualified and getting so close to the semi-final.

It's amazing really looking back on it. We were with the giants of Europe: Italy, Spain, Germany, Holland, Soviet Union and England and then there was us and Denmark. Only 8 qualified and the final was played out between 2 of the teams in our group. England lost all their games.

And then Europe exploded to numerous more nation states and we've never been back.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Stapleton was far from finished in 1988 and I would pick him ahead of Doyle and Long for any game that year.

Have to disagree, Stapleton was clearly on the slide in 88, he was bouncing around between Ajax, Anderlecht, Derby and Le Harve around that time before winding up with Blackburn in Div 2 in 89. He was a spent force by 1990. The only person who thought he wasn't was Frank himself, hence his huge sulk during Italia 90 as he wasn't getting a game. Big Jack himself said that if not for sentiment he'd probably have sent Frank home rather than Gary Waddock as he knew Frank wasn't likely to play and was very concerned about Houghton's fitness and wanted extra cover in midfield. But he reckoned that Frank deserved a squad place for his contribution over the years. Think John Byrne was noted as midfielder on the squad list whereas he'd have been down as a forward with Waddock in midfield had Frank not been in the squad.

[Drumcondra 69er]

That Holland team of 88 was top class and pretty much played us off the pitch at Gelsenkirchen but we hung in there and only lost to a flukey goal in the end. The game had also somewhat unfairly been played on the Dutch border and the ground was just a sea of orange with our green mass swamped. A unique experience being at a tournament for which we had qualified and getting so close to the semi-final.

It's amazing really looking back on it. We were with the giants of Europe: Italy, Spain, Germany, Holland, Soviet Union and England and then there was us and Denmark. Only 8 qualified and the final was played out between 2 of the teams in our group. England lost all their games.



To be honest, I don't think the Dutch played us off the park. We should have been one up from McGraths header and Aldo just missing the rebound from the post in the first half and we held out own in general. England dominated us far more than Holland funnily enough. What was the saying after the tournament, we won a game we should have lost, drew a game we should have won and lost a game we should have drawn!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Any of the current 3 strikers, Doyle, Long, Robbie, are streets ahead of Aldo' who was mediocre for us at best.

And in the context of '88, Stapleton also.

[Wolfie]

What was the saying after the tournament, we won a game we should have lost, drew a game we should have won and lost a game we should have drawn!

Yeah - we should have beaten Russia. Tony Galvin should have had a peno, Aldo volleyed high and wide and really should have buried it.

[Metrostars]

Holland in 'Euro'88 were as good as European side now, excluding Spain...

"as good"? Seriously? They were way better than any current European side excluding Spain. In fact the World. The Milan trio Gullit, van Basten and Riikaard were at the height of their form. One of the best European sides, ever. They were a joy to watch except for that poxy bounce.

As for the 88/current combo team, here's my picks:

Given
O'Shea-Dunne-Moran-Hughton
Houghton-McGrath-Whelan-Duff
Stapleton-Keane

Touch and go with O'Shea/Morris and Dunne/McCarthy but the rest pick themselves.

[theworm2345]

Yeah - we should have beaten Russia. Tony Galvin should have had a peno, Aldo volleyed high and wide and really should have buried it.
23 years later I think we can call it even if that point last week gets us to Euro 2012.

[geysir]

Have to disagree, Stapleton was clearly on the slide in 88, he was bouncing around between Ajax, Anderlecht, Derby and Le Harve around that time before winding up with Blackburn in Div 2 in 89. He was a spent force by 1990. The only person who thought he wasn't was Frank himself, hence his huge sulk during Italia 90 as he wasn't getting a game. .
You have to examine the details. He was signed by Cruyff for Ajax to be their main striker but he picked up a serious injury and eventually returned to England. He had 2 solid seasons with Blackburn after 1988. He was captain of the Ireland team throughout the '88 qual campaign and the finals.
In 1988 he was still a class above Doyle and Long. Whatever happened in 1990 at the age of 34, has nothing to do with the player he was in 1988.

[geysir]

"as good"? Seriously? They were way better than any current European side excluding Spain. In fact the World. The Milan trio Gullit, van Basten and Riikaard were at the height of their form. One of the best European sides, ever. They were a joy to watch except for that poxy bounce.

As for the 88/current combo team, here's my picks:

Given
O'Shea-Dunne-Moran-Hughton
Houghton-McGrath-Whelan-Duff
Stapleton-Keane

Touch and go with O'Shea/Morris and Dunne/McCarthy but the rest pick themselves.

I suppose it goes without saying that Ronnie is the Whelan.

[Noelys Guitar]

Ian St John doing a profile of Ireland before Euro 88. Some great clips and goals from the qualifyers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXtFduh5MHc&feature=related

[ArdeeBhoy]

"as good"? Seriously? They were way better than any current European side excluding Spain. In fact the World.

As good implies they were the equals, if not better...

:rolleyes:

[seanfhear]

Ian St John doing a profile of Ireland before Euro 88. Some great clips and goals from the qualifyers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXtFduh5MHc&feature=related

That McGrath fella was'nt too bad.....

[Metrostars]

I suppose it goes without saying that Ronnie is the Whelan.

Let me think about that one :p

[Sullivinho]

I'm reaching a bit topic-wise here but speaking of games on TV, Sky Sports are having a freeview weekend (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_7178416,00.html) commencing saturday morning.

[BonnieShels]

They font mention upc but do mention RoI. Hmmmmm...

Roll on the sexiness.