Most disappoint thing After tongiht

[shakermaker1982]

What about the respective club sides for Armenia? They don't play for any huge clubs so how dare they think they can go to Slovakia and hammer the **ite out of em in their backyard. If it was just who you played for then England would be getting to world cup finals every four years.

There aren't many Irish fans who expect the team to go to Russia and beat them but I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands who expect footballers who are paid thousands of pounds week to be able to string two passes together. Just getting the basics right would make things so much easier.

[mypost]

Armenia are the "Israel 2005" of the group. They are however 5th seeds. Awkward, semi-decent, but not going to qualify. The group is still imo a 3-horse race.

[French Toasht]

Armenia are the "Israel 2005" of the group. They are however 5th seeds. Awkward, semi-decent, but not going to qualify. The group is still imo a 3-horse race.

Disagree. To write off Armenia at this stage of the campaign is scandalous. Top scorers in the group by miles. They have taken 7 points from the 12 available against Russia and Slovakia, compared to our 3. They showed us on two occasions how to unlock the Slovakian defence, something we failed to do. They gave us a really tough game in Yerevan, that we just about shaded. I think we SHOULD have enough to see them off, but as things stand, they pose a much greater threat to our potential play off spot than Slovakia do.

Also it should be noted, Israel finished above us in WC 2006 qualification.

[Kingdom]

Disagree. To write off Armenia at this stage of the campaign is scandalous. Top scorers in the group by miles. They have taken 7 points from the 12 available against Russia and Slovakia, compared to our 3.

It's maddening to read that, nearly embarrasing.


They showed us on two occasions how to unlock the Slovakian defence, something we failed to do.

That technically isn't true. They showed us how to put the ball in the net! In Zilina we unlocked their defence 3 times, we just failed to take those chances. The same in Dublin.


They gave us a really tough game in Yerevan, that we just about shaded. I think we SHOULD have enough to see them off, but as things stand, they pose a much greater threat to our potential play off spot than Slovakia do.
that's a fair observation alright.

[Noelys Guitar]

Mkhitaryan has been the best player on any team in our group so far. Was brilliant again last night. Anyone who thinks we are going to have it easy against Armenia are not basing it on anything to do with football. The fact they have not qualified for anything means nothing. We will have to be at our very best to beat Armenia.

[mypost]

Disagree. To write off Armenia at this stage of the campaign is scandalous. Top scorers in the group by miles. They have taken 7 points from the 12 available against Russia and Slovakia, compared to our 3. They showed us on two occasions how to unlock the Slovakian defence, something we failed to do. They gave us a really tough game in Yerevan, that we just about shaded.

Also it should be noted, Israel finished above us in WC 2006 qualification.

It should be noted that they were top going into the last night of those qualifiers. But they weren't playing on the last night, and they were largely forgotten in the three-way scrap for qualification we had with the French and Swiss. Like us, they failed to qualify.

They've done very well in the past week, but they've lost in Russia, which we didn't, and drawn in Skopje, which we didn't. We beat them in Yerevan, and we should beat them here. They've done well in the campaign alright as others have dropped points, but I can't see them qualifying.

[French Toasht]

It should be noted that they were top going into the last night of those qualifiers. But they weren't playing on the last night, and they were largely forgotten in the three-way scrap for qualification we had with the French and Swiss. Like us, they failed to qualify.

Irrelevant. They finshed ahead of us over 10 games, thems the facts. And of course it was a four hourse race, sure every game between Ireland, France, Switzerland and Israel ended in a draw, bar our defeat to France. How can you say they were not involved in our "three way scrap."


They've done very well in the past week, but they've lost in Russia, which we didn't, and drawn in Skopje, which we didn't. We beat them in Yerevan, and we should beat them here. They've done well in the campaign alright as others have dropped points, but I can't see them qualifying.

They took the same amount of points off Russia that we did and beat Slovakia twice, which we failed to do. And they score goals for fun, which is not something that can be said about us. Come on, credit where credit is due, they are right up there with us on merit. I ultimately agree that I think we will shade it, but they will ensure that last game will be a nail biter to watch.

[mypost]

And of course it was a four hourse race, sure every game between Ireland, France, Switzerland and Israel ended in a draw, bar our defeat to France. How can you say they were not involved in our "three way scrap."

Israel never really looked like qualifying and didn't.


they score goals for fun, which is not something that can be said about us.

We were the group's top scorers until Armenia played Andorra a few days ago. Nobody, not even themselves thought they'd win 4-0 last night. It happened when Slovakia lost the plot altogether, putting on more forwards chasing the game, leaving yawning gaps at the back. I can't see us doing that, you know what Trap is like.

What there is in common between the groups now and then, is that they are very tight, allowing a lower seed to come up and attempt to challenge for a while. Ultimately, the bigger nations get the job done.

[Kingdom]

Israel never really looked like qualifying and didn't.



We were the group's top scorers until Armenia played Andorra a few days ago. Nobody, not even themselves thought they'd win 4-0 last night. It happened when Slovakia lost the plot altogether, putting on more forwards chasing the game, leaving yawning gaps at the back. I can't see us doing that, you know what Trap is like.

What there is in common between the groups now and then, is that they are very tight, allowing a lower seed to come up and attempt to challenge for a while. Ultimately, the bigger nations get the job done.

There was a higher force at work on Tuesday night...look at some of the results:
Estonia 4-1 Niron
Luxembourg 2- 1 Albania (!!!)

[French Toasht]

Israel never really looked like qualifying and didn't.

But didn't you say earlier they were top of the group going into the final round of fixtures? That sounds a lot to me like they did look like qualifying.

[mypost]

Israel and the Faroes finished their campaigns earlier than the other teams.

[Closed Account 2]

4-0 is the biggest margin they've ever won by. 4-0 at home to Andorra, and now the 0-4 in Slovakia.

[elroy]

The result the other night was bananas. Looking at the goals that Armenia scored, the Slovakian defence were very suspect for all goals with perhaps the exception of the first which was a nice finish.

The second goal, well all I can say is where did the keeper think it was going. Wasnt all that dissimilar a shot to the one Shay saved from Arshavin in Moscow, however I think Arshavin's was better. The fourth goal was a calamity by the defender who passed it straight to the Armenian attacker.

In other words, our greatest strength is our defence, Armenia should (hopefully) not find it so easy to get around us. Whilst they gave us a good battle in Yerevan I dont recall too many good chances for them. That Murityan (spelling?) was their outstanding player and will need to be closely marshalled. It would be worth keeping an eye out for the likes of him in the coming weeks for his club, see how getting on etc.

Right now I think Armenia are the greatest threat to us finishing in the top two. But Slovakia are capable of beating Russia at home. We really should just concentrate on our own, get our three points against Andorra and then that Saturday morning we will know exactly whats needed from the game against Armenia. Im not sure Id be keen on the scenario where its a draw in the Slovak/Russia game meaning we cant top the group but also meaning that a draw is all we'd need at home to Armenia.

[Wolfie]

Im not sure Id be keen on the scenario where its a draw in the Slovak/Russia game meaning we cant top the group but also meaning that a draw is all we'd need at home to Armenia.

The above scenario is fraught with danger, tension, hysteria and potential heart break. What's the chances of it NOT coming to this????

[third policeman]

I dont know, I think we are a half decent midfield pairing away from becoming Greece of a few years back and look what they did. The thought of it brings a beam to my face anyway.



But I'm not sure Trap would pick them if they emerged.Honestly dont think he thinks that there is anything wrong with our midfield. If he did he would have brought McCarthy on more quickly, not send the Reids into the wilderness, not picked a fight with Gibson, wrtitten off Ireland or made such unconvincing overtures to O'Hara, Noble, Ephraim, McGugan etc etc. I dont think he has Meyler or Houlihan on his radar or is even capable of imaging another way of playing.

Maybe we should keep Trap on as an "Away Coach" and hire a different manager for home games.

[the bear]

But I'm not sure Trap would pick them if they emerged.Honestly dont think he thinks that there is anything wrong with our midfield. If he did he would have brought McCarthy on more quickly, not send the Reids into the wilderness, not picked a fight with Gibson, wrtitten off Ireland or made such unconvincing overtures to O'Hara, Noble, Ephraim, McGugan etc etc. I dont think he has Meyler or Houlihan on his radar or is even capable of imaging another way of playing.

Maybe we should keep Trap on as an "Away Coach" and hire a different manager for home games.

how bout stan?

[Wolfie]

But I'm not sure Trap would pick them if they emerged.Honestly dont think he thinks that there is anything wrong with our midfield. If he did he would have brought McCarthy on more quickly, not send the Reids into the wilderness, not picked a fight with Gibson, wrtitten off Ireland or made such unconvincing overtures to O'Hara, Noble, Ephraim, McGugan etc etc. I dont think he has Meyler or Houlihan on his radar or is even capable of imaging another way of playing.

Maybe we should keep Trap on as an "Away Coach" and hire a different manager for home games.

Yes, Whelan and Andrews are Trapps men. Both of them are chosen to implement Trapp's system, almost like worker bees.

Neither of them were near the squad until Trapp took over - neither were mentioned as serious contenders to be included in the starting 11. Arguably neither may never have secured a starting spot with a different Ireland coach, certainly for competitive qualifiers.

Part of the frustration comes from the fact that Irish fans have witnessed the values of a talented and effective central midfield. Brady, Giles, Keane, Townsend, Whelan - all are former exponents of great central midfield play.

The timing of Stephen Reid's injury after the Montenegro away game in the last campaign was unfortunate - I think Trapp really rated him at that point and I think he would have continued to establish himself in central midfield. Such is life.

Obviously, Whelan and Andrews will be persisted with until the end of this campaign.

Early next year, I'd like to see Fahy given another chance, Meyler and I wouldn't be too proud to unearth a decent midfielder via the granny rule, if the player were committed to the cause.

[pineapple stu]

Early next year, I'd like to see Fahy given another chance, Meyler and I wouldn't be too proud to unearth a decent midfielder via the granny rule, if the player were committed to the cause.
I'm biased, but Gary Dicker may be worth a look too. Knows how to keep possession; doing quite well at the top of Division One with Brighton. They've just signed a former Spanish international midfielder, so it'll be interesting to see whose place he takes, but we're picking players from lower clubs than Brighton at the moment.

[Phony Cascarino]

Howya dudes??!!
I usually vehemently support the Boys in Green and castigate any detractors but last two games have been a shambles. Trapattoni's tactics were idiotic, he is a winner and respected coach but he's taking the **** with his long ball tactics. I lost count of the number of long balls lumped up to Keane and Cox. The Slovaks and Russians have slept walked through the matches. I believe that the long ball tactic belongs in the stone age although I realise it can be effective, but only if the front men are brutes. Walters, Folan and Best are big lumps of men, why are they not being utilized? Let Keane play off one of them and at least it will give us a sporting chance. Punting the ball up to Keane just concedes possession and allows counter attacking teams to pour forward and cut us to shreds. Its a ridiculous and redundant tactic. Trap claims that he utilizes the players at his disposal to the best of their ability, this is a fallacy, since when was Keane a colossus in the air?Trap needs to get off his expensive Italian sofa and view the players who are at his disposal. Where were Hoolahan, J O'Brien, Wilson, Walters and Best? I'm not claiming these are the panacea to our ills but if Trap wants to play hoof ball then surely Walters and Best should be ahead of Cox in the pecking order. James Mc isn't even close to the finished article but he possesses the the ability to pass the ball and link defence and attack.

[Charlie Darwin]

But I'm not sure Trap would pick them if they emerged.Honestly dont think he thinks that there is anything wrong with our midfield. If he did he would have brought McCarthy on more quickly, not send the Reids into the wilderness, not picked a fight with Gibson, wrtitten off Ireland or made such unconvincing overtures to O'Hara, Noble, Ephraim, McGugan etc etc. I dont think he has Meyler or Houlihan on his radar or is even capable of imaging another way of playing.

Maybe we should keep Trap on as an "Away Coach" and hire a different manager for home games.
Meyler was chosen for a summer training camp before he got his terrible injury, and I don't think we had any games during the month or so he was fit last season. If he gets back into the Sunderland team (likely as Bruce has a lot of time for him) I think his progress will be rapid, injury permitting. Hoolahan just isn't a Trap player - he's basically come out and said he won't fit the system.

Speaking of Meyler, he just tweeted: "Looking forward to the game saturday vs Chelsea. Not ready yet to play not long left, cannot wait to put that shirt on again."

[BonnieShels]

The most disappointing thing is that a mod still hasn't seen fit to change the thread title.

[tetsujin1979]

Neither of them were near the squad until Trapp took over - neither were mentioned as serious contenders to be included in the starting 11. Arguably neither may never have secured a starting spot with a different Ireland coach, certainly for competitive qualifiers.
Whelan was on the bench for Don Givens' game VS Brazil at Croke Park. Andrews was playing in League One, having being promoted from League Two, until just after Trapattoni took over and would more than likely have never gotten into the squad playing at that level, until he was signed for Blackburn by Ince.

[paul_oshea]

So we are all agreed that we rode our luck against Russia the last day. Nevermind missed opportunites or the stars aligning or positioning themselves or whatever you believe in. We got the point and we are happy for that, but there are alarming and extremely worrying times ahead if this is the approach we take, as we have over the last 2 games.

Everyone on here, keeps saying our away form is super, we just need to sort out our home form. Generally under most irish managers, we have been very difficult away from home to beat, never winning but not losing all that much, bar 2 very poor games under stan, we were unlucky against Germany away. Our last 3 games at home we have never really looked like scoring, never creating enough chances, never thinking of anything other than defending. Possibly there is a thing in the back of the mind about keeping this record going for as long as possible and that is inhibiting us attacking, or possibly they have built up the fact that we are very hard score against and don't want to lose it that they don't commit enough players forward, or possibly, maybe, trap just wont let us. We have been giving far too much respect to teams coming to landsdowne road. Armenia, away, was probably one of the most difficult teams we have played away for a while, but because we never played them before and assumed they weren't really that good we beat them 1-0. The thing is bar 1 shot in the first half, they never looked like scoring, we could have had 2 or 3, but that was about it. However the attitude we had, and the way we played we didn't give them too much respect and that in my mind was key. If we were facing them away, as the last game, after the results they have produced, I would be extremely worried about getting even a draw. The point I'm trying to make is that, our away form, has been almost identical to our home form the last few games, the difference is people think because we are at home we (perhaps should) play differently somehow. But we don't. We are so good defensively because we are so poor offensively. We commit so many numbers into defense and hold such a deep line, that we cant get onto the ball in any meaningful way in midfield, against Russia this was apparent from the early stages. We then resorted to hoofing it away from our box everytime just to relieve some pressure temporarily. The penny didn't see to drop that we should try to hold onto it, and retaining possession for any sustained period would have lifted the burden and possibly give us some much needed impetus.

We badly need a CM capable of getting onto the ball from outside the 18 yard box, creating some space and alleviating the pressure on the back 4, I think we all know that, and I'm sure Trap does too, but until we find that someone what to we do? I don't think the solution we currently have to this problem is working. I think we have been lucky, and when it matters most we will be let down.

Trap also needs to start breeding players quicker into certain positions. For example if meyler shines right through the next 4 months, i dont want to hear of any crap coming from Trap or anywhere else about problems etc, or that he needs to go to one of Traps end of season clinics before he gets brought in. Play him as soon as possible. Trap has been too eager to get them into these things and slowly brainwash them into his way of thinking. It took a long time for Ward to get his chance, and he has been terrible, don't waste another year in finding a (un)suitable replacement. Same goes for wilson, or any other player that might come into his own in the next year. If you aren't going to change your mindset at least change the players.

[mypost]

So we are all agreed that we rode our luck against Russia the last day. Nevermind missed opportunites or the stars aligning or positioning themselves or whatever you believe in. We got the point and we are happy for that, but there are alarming and extremely worrying times ahead if this is the approach we take, as we have over the last 2 games.

Everyone on here, keeps saying our away form is super, we just need to sort out our home form. Generally under most irish managers, we have been very difficult away from home to beat, never winning but not losing all that much, bar 2 very poor games under stan, we were unlucky against Germany away. Our last 3 games at home we have never really looked like scoring, never creating enough chances, never thinking of anything other than defending.

The gulf between the records and performances of the coach's are stratospheric.

We have created chances in all our home games, haven't always taken them mind, but we have scored 5 home goals and got 7 points at home. We've also won our first tournament in 25 years, with 3 wins, and clean sheets. The side has regained it's competitiveness, it's not out of qualifying after 2 games or losing 5 goals in Cyprus. We're not playing sides of Russia's quality for another 12 months. We went there for a point and we got it, very few sides with turn their nose up at a point out there. Neither should we.

[OwlsFan]

We have been giving far too much respect to teams coming to landsdowne road. Armenia, away, was probably one of the most difficult teams we have played away for a while, but because we never played them before and assumed they weren't really that good we beat them 1-0. The thing is bar 1 shot in the first half, they never looked like scoring, we could have had 2 or 3, but that was about it. However the attitude we had, and the way we played we didn't give them too much respect and that in my mind was key. If we were facing them away, as the last game, after the results they have produced, I would be extremely worried about getting even a draw. .

I am not sure that theory holds much water bearing in mind we went to places where we respected the opposition and did well (e.g. Italy, France, Slovakia).

As for not holding the ball and hoofing it, there is a simple reason for this. We're not good enough to keep the ball from our backline through midfield. If opponents press us, we're not capable of keeping the ball be it John O'Shea, Richard Dunne, Whelan, Gibson, Andrews etc. We might occasionally string a few passes together but once pressed, it's the flam up the middle. We did well in Paris because France thought they had the game won and we were allowed play. It is also a policy of course and I do get irritated some times with it (e.g. in Moscow we had a free 10 yards in the Russian half. Ward stood with tons of space to the left of the free taker but he was ignored and we lumped it in to the box, Dunne gave away a free and that was that). However, this is an isolated incident but if anyone thinks we could play like Spain, even with Hoolahan, McCarthy or Fahey, forget it. You need ball playing defenders as well which we don't have (despite Richard's foray in to the Russian half)..

I do worry about the Armenian game at home based upon past performances. The Russian defeat and the Slovakian easy ride were no flukes. I am just surprised that a coach with such experience like Trap can't come up with a solution or perhaps there isn't one. We even struggled to beat Macedonia and Georgia here if I recall. I have no doubt it will be the same formation and tactics and we just have to pray that we get the goal and keep a clean sheet at the other end. "Our Father who arth in Heaven......"

[Charlie Darwin]

Dunne and O'Dea are both ball-playing centre halves. O'Shea too. Even Puyol and Pique need the players around them to make angles and Irish players don't.

[paul_oshea]

I am begining to think that we have become far more conservative and far more defensive since the game against Russia last year. For Trap I think he saw it as some sort of wake-up call, that his first key mission was to stop us conceding silly goals and lots of goals, but we shipped 2 very poor goals against Russia, and found ourselves 3-0 down inside 50 mins. I think now he focuses on erasing these and ensuring the memories of Russia at home remain just that, and we don't ever perform like that again, hence he has put everything into the defensive side of things, while disregarding our offensive approach to the detriment of our overall game.

[mark12345]

Yes, Whelan and Andrews are Trapps men. Both of them are chosen to implement Trapp's system, almost like worker bees.

Neither of them were near the squad until Trapp took over - neither were mentioned as serious contenders to be included in the starting 11. Arguably neither may never have secured a starting spot with a different Ireland coach, certainly for competitive qualifiers.

Part of the frustration comes from the fact that Irish fans have witnessed the values of a talented and effective central midfield. Brady, Giles, Keane, Townsend, Whelan - all are former exponents of great central midfield play.

The timing of Stephen Reid's injury after the Montenegro away game in the last campaign was unfortunate - I think Trapp really rated him at that point and I think he would have continued to establish himself in central midfield. Such is life.

Obviously, Whelan and Andrews will be persisted with until the end of this campaign.

Early next year, I'd like to see Fahy given another chance, Meyler and I wouldn't be too proud to unearth a decent midfielder via the granny rule, if the player were committed to the cause.

If Whelan and Andrews are persisted with against Andorra and Armenia then we might as well toss a coin on our Euro 2012 prospects.

The remaining two games are all about horses for courses. Trapattoni needs to load up with big men up front - Walters or Best or Folan to complement Long and Doyle in attack (in a three man attack with Robbie in midfield). It'a all about goals now - let's play to our primitive strengths and push the aerial attack.

But knowing Trap, he will be stubborn until the last and keep Whelan and Andrews in and we'll be biting our nails until the final minute in each game.

[SwanVsDalton]

Dunne and O'Dea are both ball-playing centre halves. O'Shea too. Even Puyol and Pique need the players around them to make angles and Irish players don't.

I wouldn't call Dunne a ball playing centre half really. He's got decent touch, and can play a pass, but his instinct is to go long more often than not, although it certainly is mitigated by what's in front of him.

I think, if anything, the problem is our back four play too deep a line due to a general lack of pace. Usually there's a sizeable gap between them and midfield (if we're pressing the opposition high up the pitch) or a huge gap between defence/midfield and the forwards, so the only out ball is to lump it.

[Noelys Guitar]

I honestly believe Trapatonni will play the better players if he believes they are better ie Long chosen ahead of Doyle. The tactics might never change but as soon as a half decent central midfield player emerges then we will improve. Reid went seriously backwards. Stepehen ireland is just a sporting embarrassment. McCarthy acted the goat (with very bad advice from ******* at Wigan) but has seriously redeemed himself. A very good central midfield player would transform this side. But huge kudos to Whelan and Andrews for their exemplary commitment to the Irish team.

[mypost]

I do worry about the Armenian game at home based upon past performances. The Russian defeat and the Slovakian easy ride were no flukes. I am just surprised that a coach with such experience like Trap can't come up with a solution or perhaps there isn't one. We even struggled to beat Macedonia and Georgia here if I recall. I have no doubt it will be the same formation and tactics and we just have to pray that we get the goal and keep a clean sheet at the other end.

Against Slovakia, we lost a forward on the morning of the game, and had to play a half-fit replacement. Against Russia, a defender was suspended, and another replacement was needed.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The most disappointing thing is that a mod still hasn't seen fit to change the thread title.

And what exactly is even the point of this thread?
There are at least 2-3 others already saying much the same....eg. our midfield is cr*p, Trap is too defensive, Armenia could qualify etc.

[theworm2345]

And what exactly is even the point of this thread?
There are at least 2-3 others already saying much the same....eg. our midfield is cr*p, Trap is too defensive, Armenia could qualify etc.
I must say you seem quite grumpy tonight (judging by your posts here, and in the Ward, Hoolahan, and S. Reid threads)

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, hardly grumpy, more cynical.
;)