'commence' + infinitive or gerund

[osarusan]

Right, this is a really gripping and entertaining thread.

I'm reviewing an academic text written by somebody whose first language is Japanese, and as well as some clear grammatical and stylistic errors, there's a question which has been irritating me for a couple of days now.

Here is the sentence in question:

"Based on these results, it seems advisable that schools should commence to offer explicit pronunciation practice from an earlier age than is currently the case."

When I read this, the collocation of 'commence' and 'to offer' seemed somewhat unnatural to me. To say 'commence offering' seems a better collocation of words.

I've consulted two online corpora, one of British and one of American English, and while the British corpus shows a tendency to use 'commence + _____ing (the gerund), the American corpus has relatively equal instances of usage of both. (Most striking was the overwhelming preference for 'commence + noun')

So, with two of the most famous corpora in the world failing to help, it's up to you good people - which is more natural to your ears:

'commence to offer' or 'commence offering'

[passinginterest]

Personally much prefer "commence to offer". I don't like "commence offering" at all. I'm not really sure why, "commence offering" just seems like a more awkward mouthful. "Commence to offer" has a more formal sound and in an academic text would sit better with me.

[osarusan]

If you substiture 'offer' with other verbs, say 'study' or 'construct' (or any other verb), would your opinion stay the same? Would you always prefer 'commence to _______' over 'commence _______ing', or would your preference change according to the verb?

[bluemovie]

I thought football forums were all about arranging fights with other firms on matchday????????

Definitely 'commence offering'. The other one might be okay technically (I'm not sure), but it sounds horribly clunky. Just because commence is a synonym of start or begin doesn't mean it can automatically be wedged in as a subtitute in all contexts. 'Commence to offer' sounds like it could be used in some American instructional video, but it just doesn't sound natural to me.

[Eminence Grise]

The simplest thing is to remove one of the offending words:

schools should commence explicit pronunciation practice from an earlier age than is currently the case

schools should offer explicit pronunciation practice from an earlier age than is currently the case

No change in the meaning and the writer's intent is much clearer, although it does leave the grammar point unaddressed. I have a soft copy of Strunk and White (and maybe Fowlers, too) somewhere. I'll try to find them and see what they say.

Academic writing can get tied up in knots trying to be too clever. The most useful writing tip I ever got was: when two adjectives are used, drop one. I think it can work for verbs too.


Edit.
"Commence offering" suggests to me only that an offer need be made, and that that would be a completed action in itself, irrespective of uptake. I'm guessing that the writer's intent is that more explicit pronunciation practice would be carried on, rather than offered in the abstract. All in all, I'd go for "commence explicit".

[DannyInvincible]

How about "commence with offering"?

[superfrank]

"Commence offering" doesn't sound right but that's probably down to it being a very rare pairing. "Commence to offer" sounds totally wrong.

[freewheel30]

"Commence offering" makes good enough sense to me. "Commence to offer" kind of sounds like classic Asian broken English.

[Angus]

Anybody else like the irony (simple but neat) of stumbling over basic words in relation to a pronunciation discussion ? Simple and basic, but I like it

Surely "commence" and "offer" is unnecessary complex - "...schools would begin to offer...", or "..schools would introduce...."

[osarusan]

Thanks everybody who replied. I should have mentioned that I'm limited in terms of what I can correct - otherwise, instead of reviewing, I'd end up rewriting the paper for them. I might put it down as an issue of style, explain why (without offering an alternative phrase) and send them off to rephrase it and get back to me.

[osarusan]

"Commence to offer" sounds totally wrong.


"Commence to offer" kind of sounds like classic Asian broken English.
Initially I was leaning towards the idea of it being just wrong, but Brigham Young University's sample corpus (gleaned from 425 million words) told me differently.

http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/

(type in 'commence to' and you'll get a lot of hits from different genres.)

[osarusan]

How about "commence with offering"?

My first thoughts are that 'commence with' has the connotation that the thing mentioned is the first in a list of things. As in, 'we'll commence with A, move on to B, and finish with C', which is not the implication desired in the sentence I mentioned. The pronunciation practice referred to will not come to an end and have something else take its place.

However, I'd need to look at a corpus to be more sure about that.

[paul_oshea]

I honestly don't feel either "sound" right. Why commence, to me is not definitive, its not a state or point in time at which it occurs. "To offer" is again not defined to me, and therefore its two undefined words when the actual context they sit in, appears to suggest that it should be confirmed by x, where x is a given age, again earlier age is very loose, the actual statement to me sounds horribly wrong. I'm never too good on the semtanics, but I generally figure "What sounds better" pretty quickly - or at least(what sounds better) to me :)

[paul_oshea]

Anybody else like the irony (simple but neat) of stumbling over basic words in relation to a pronunciation discussion ? Simple and basic, but I like it

Surely "commence" and "offer" is unnecessary complex - "...schools would begin to offer...", or "..schools would introduce...."

This is exactly how I see things, growing up where my mother corrected me on almost anything and everything, the whole lot sounds wrong, not necessarily complex, but its an exaggerated sentence to sound more clever than it needs to be, when realistically it actually makes very little sense, or defines anything in anyway clearly.

I've not done what you have done before osarusan, but those who can explain or define in the most simplest of terms are the best communicators. Sometimes I reckon these texts, particularly 3rd level texts, are trying to be too clever for their own good, trying to sound more flowery and less clear, in order to add another level of complexity where not at all needed. The simple reason, credence.

Funny just read others replies now, and EG(the other proper rossie one - where all the great intellects were born) and Angus have pretty much said what I would agree with :)

[peadar1987]

If you replace "commence" with "begin", is it any more clear... I think "begin to offer" sounds more natural than "begin offering", although both would be completely acceptable, I would have thought.

[paul_oshea]

Again in the context neither of them provide a clear or definitive state.

Begin offering sounds better, but even then you still aren't actually doing anything. begin to offer sounds like you will do something or you will provide something, not that you have or currently are providing something - where something can be replaced by the subject. Almost like you have thought about something, in somewhat vague terms but you are not actively doing it, ah well i might or i mightn't.

Jees i didn't think when I came in here i would even think about this and thought it was stupid. NOw its actually annoying me.

[Eminence Grise]

Had a quick look at Strunk's Elements of Style at Project Gutenberg, but didn't find anything relevant.
(http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/37134/pg37134.txt for all you grammarians)

I still think that dropping "to offer" is the most useful solution.

[A N Mouse]

Should or should not.

There is no should commence to!

[A N Mouse]

What I meant to say was

I know little of style-guides or what have you, but I think the excess verbiage sounds wrong.

If you're going to start using should + verb + infinitive, then to my ear you need to qualify for time. Or, to my mind, should implies future (in this case recommended) action and commence/begin type verbs are redundant qualification.

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